- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: rename, in the second case to Category:Proposed NJ Transit rail stations. – Fayenatic London 21:13, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Nominator's rationale: I originally nominated these in the speedy section to match the category names to NJ Transit/Category:NJ Transit. However, a user commented (see copied discussion) that the new category name should contain "rail" or "train", since NJ Transit also has bus stations, and they are not included in this category. I think that this is a good point. I propose we either (1) rename to Category:NJ Transit rail stations or Category:NJ Transit train stations; or (2) rename as originally proposed, and adding the articles about the bus stations to the category. I have also included the "proposed" category in this discussion so it can match whatever is decided. (If (1) is selected, I have no preference of "rail" vs. "train", though it is NJ Transit Rail Operations.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:16, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
copy of speedy discussion
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- Support as proposed. This category scheme is all stations belonging to the specific company NJ Transit, not necessarily just the rail stations. If you look at Category:Railway stations in the United States by company and Category:Rapid transit stations in the United States by operator, "Railway" or "Railroad" only exists for categories of companies that include this in their corporate name. If one wants a separate category for NJ Transit rail stations, then that is a possibility, but should be separate from this CFD. --Scott Alter (talk) 13:26, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename Matches the main article and the common name. No preference on specifying "rail". RevelationDirect (talk) 05:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppse New Jersey Transit Bus Operations also operates stations, such as Hackensack Bus Terminal. This category incudes only List of NJ Transit stations and Light rail in New Jersey stations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djflem (talk • contribs)
- @Djflem: my nomination takes this into account. Which of the two solutions, (1) or (2), would you prefer to deal with this? I don't think what you have said is a sufficient reason to prevent changing "New Jersey" to "NJ" in the category names. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:42, 22 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Use of NJ Transit (as opposed to New Jersey Transit) is not at issue.
- Catgeory:NJ Transit stations could have:
- Category:NJ Transit rail stations (which would include Category:NJ Transit train stations and Category:NJ Transit light rail stations) & Category:NJ Transit bus stations
- The renaming of the this category should only include the creation of a cat name which reflects what is contained within it. If there's going be a change, should be the right change, which at this stage is Category:NJ Transit rail stations Djflem (talk) 09:00, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The use of "NJ Transit" vs "New Jersey Transit" is at issue—changing it to "NJ Transit" it is the primary purpose of this nomination. I suspect that what you might mean is that you are not concerned with that part of the nomination; ie, that you do not oppose making that change. Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:17, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- As above, if there's going be a change, should be the right change, which at this stage is Category:NJ Transit rail stations Djflem (talk) 19:37, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- That's one option. See also my other suggestion, which would be to add any NJ Transit bus stations to the category. Would you prefer not to add the bus stations to the category for some reason? (I ask since other users above have supported doing that.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:00, 23 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- If so, eventually the category Category:NJ Transit train stations will need to be created and manually added to all the train stations included in the current cat. Any volunteers? Have started Category:NJ Transit bus stations.Djflem (talk) 08:08, 24 March 2016 (UTC) to which the current Category:New Jersey Transit stations has subsequently been added.Djflem (talk) 09:46, 27 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose -- The abbreviation NJ will be obvious to many people, but not everyone. As a matter of policy, WP has discouraged the use of abbreviations in category names. Peterkingiron (talk) 12:35, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @Peterkingiron: "As a matter of policy WP has discouraged the use of abbreviations in category names"?? Where is this policy? I don't think such a policy exists, or even a guideline of that sort, let alone a policy. Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:33, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, NJ Transit is the brand name, so the policy regarding abbreviations doesn't count here. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:16, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Support per Marcocapelle. And common sense, as the article is at NJ Transit per COMMONNAME. oknazevad (talk) 22:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment (nom). During this discussion, Djflem created a populated Category:NJ Transit bus stations and Category:NJ Transit train stations as subcategories of the nominated Category:New Jersey Transit stations, which essentially renders my option (1) moot as far as this nomination goes. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:25, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Not that this is the proper place for this discussion (getting really off topic of this seemingly simple CfD), but how does one define a "bus station"? I'd guess that almost every "train station" also serves buses...so should every train station also be categorized as a bus station? Or is a bus station a place that serves only buses and not trains? Not sure if this has been previously discussed, but it will likely need to be discussed (elsewhere). --Scott Alter (talk) 04:09, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I was hesitant to go down this path because of the issues you raise. I thought it would have been easier to just put them all in a generic "stations" category. It's weird that this nomination—which really only intended to turn "New Jersey" into "NJ"—has gotten so far off-track (har har har). Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:14, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The statewide transportation agency New Jersey Transit (NJT) operates railroad, light rail, and bus service, yet the fact is that the Category:New Jersey Transit stations was almost and now is exclusively populated with NJT railroad stations. So the suggestions of a name change that takes into account what is contained in the category was extremely appropriate or is what the category holds irrelevant to its name? That was the question, still unanswered, but null at this point. To properly categorize the NJT stations a different hierarchy needs to be applied than any examples offered here as to how rail service providers cats are organized, possibly:
Category:New Jersey Transit stations or Category:NJ Transit stations should be only a container category that should include:
As mentioned, if you gonna do it do it right. So the question was what should the single listings (not categories) currently contained in Catgeory:New Jersey Transit stations be called and are their any volunteers to manually make the change to the items in it?
Incidentally, Wikipedia's Bus station and bus stop explain a difference. While some NJT train stations service as NJT bus stations/terminals most do not & more often include bus stops.Djflem (talk) 13:41, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- "if you gonna do it do it right". Yes, but sometimes it's helpful to do things in a step-wise process, rather than trying to bite it all off in one go. This proposed first step was to get the naming corrected. After that, it would have been relatively simple for you to make the changes you desire. Mixing the processes together has created a bit of a confused mess, with the result that the final result is going to take a lot longer to achieve. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:06, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, I did not populate or categorize Category:NJ Transit train stations, two editors to this discussion did (which seems messy) Regarding the proposal, there were things to clarify, such as the use of the words rail, railroad, or train, given NJT operations.
With them this will be the result:
- The first of the above mentioned categories will include subcats and be populated with individual railroad stations (which would be the case with or w/o the name change, which I've made clear i support.)
- The second would be incorrect, and I oppose since it includes only railroad stations and light rail stations and not bus stations, and it would be better named something that reflects that, (with my preference for rail as the word which includes both light rail and railroad/train stations, as outlined in proposed hierarchy above)Djflem (talk) 21:51, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- "I did not populate or categorize Category:NJ Transit train stations". But you did create it. The distinction you draw between bus and rail stations is why I offered two alternatives for the renames. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:25, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Djflem, no one is arguing with you or even opposing your suggestions for the stations hierarchy. I haven't seen any opposition at all to what you have raised. You're just complicating this seemingly simple CFD. What you have proposed makes sense, and can be done entirely separately from this CFD. The purpose of the original CFDS was simply to rename "New Jersey Transit" categories to "NJ Transit", to be congruent with the article NJ Transit. This CFD never should have been this complicated. If you think that the NJ Transit stations category requires a more detailed hierarchy, then go ahead and be bold: populate and categorize the bus/rail/train categories you already partially created. There probably should be a category for "Proposed NJ Transit stations", and if you want to make it a container category and further sub-categorize articles to "Proposed NJ Transit [bus|rail|train] stations", then go for it. --Scott Alter (talk) 05:40, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, creating Category:NJ Transit train stations did not cause a mess, populating with sub cats and categorizing it did.
As is appropriate for a discussion of a name change, which is the ONLY discussion about how to properly address NJT stations, I have simply pointed out how both categories are flawed. I have responded within answered the narrow parameters on which you are focused (IMO to the detriment of the bigger picture). The first I support because the category name needs to be created (and then later fixed), and the 2nd I oppose because there is no need and none will arise to have Category:Proposed NJ Transit stations populated by only one subcat called Category:Proposed NJ Transit rail stations, Therefore suggest changing it to the latter directly. As mentioned the choice between the word rail is best since includes both proposed light rail and railroad stations, but no bus stations. Djflem (talk) 07:38, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Support "NJ Transit rail stations". The articles have long since been moved to "NJ Transit" and the category should reflect that.--Cúchullain t/c 14:27, 27 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment, hey @Djflem: this discussion is a good example of why it can sometimes be a bad idea to propose making multiple reforms within a single discussion rather than making one reform, implementing it, and then moving on to the next change that you think needs to happen. This nomination started out as a simple suggestion to change "New Jersey Transit" to "NJ Transit" in category names. Easy right?—should be a snap to complete it quickly. But now, because we've had all of these other supplemental proposals and debates, the original proposed change has been held up, and I imagine that this discussion looks quite daunting for administrators who might consider closing it. As a result, what should have been a quick change which could have been implemented in 48 hours has now been open for two months. Had we just made the initial change, we then could have started a nomination to deal with the supplemental issue. But instead, we have a messy discussion that is dragging on by remaining open, even though no users have made comments in the discussion for several weeks. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:00, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Support alt rename for the second nominated category to Category:Proposed NJ Transit rail stations. Note that this is my second vote. I also think we have a rough consensus in favor of the original nomination for the first category, and in favor of the alternative rename for the second category, but I agree with with editors above that this has been an unnecessarily confusing discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:32, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.