- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: no consensus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:06, 21 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Nominator's rationale: This is a category which organises referees by the governing body the referee is in. For example ARU stands for Australian Rugby Union. Since abbreviations should be spelled out these categories should be renamed to Australian Rugby Union referee, South African Rugby Union referee etc. However the trouble with that is we already have categories based on nationality, so a referee from Australia is an Australian rugby union referee. The difference between these two distinct categories is only capitalisation. Some referees have refereed in more than one country so will be a South African rugby union referee, South African Rugby Union referee and Australian Rugby Union referee (e.g. Rasta Rasivhenge). I feel the differences in naming are so minor in this case that they would be confusing to the general audience. I propose we use the slightly longer version that says "affiliated" to more clearly illustrate what the category contains. AIRcorn (talk) 19:53, 15 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Support Sounds good to me Djln Djln (talk) 19:57, 15 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Comment: The Category:SARU referees, as of now, does not list several prominent names such as Vivian Neser and Craig Joubert. My question which may some bearing on the CfD is: Are each of these omissions intended by design – or due to the category not being completely populated? -- Ham105 (talk) 21:39, 15 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- It is also missing about a half dozen categories RFU referees, SRFU referrs, UAR referees etc. It is a relatively new category so I am guessing it is still being populated. So it is probably the best time to decide how to handle it as there will only be a few articles to update. AIRcorn (talk) 00:02, 16 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- What is the difference, in terms of inclusion within the sets, between Category:SARU referees and Category:South African rugby union referees? It would seem the grouping is identical? -- Ham105 (talk) 02:16, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- SARU referees refereed in South Africa under the SARU and South African rugby union referees are referees with South African nationality. They are not always the same thing, especially when referees move around. See Talk:Rasta Rasivhenge for the discussion that led to this CFD. Another example is Steve Walsh (rugby referee). AIRcorn (talk) 02:52, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's two referees out of a few hundred. It is understood that the wording of the proposed new categories makes the distinction. However, in the case of South Africa (and I suspect for many countries) the set membership is exactly identical. The exceptions are few indeed, which suggests it is better to merge.
Propose merging[edit]
(Additional text added for clarification 13–15 April 2018:)
- Category:American rugby union referees → Category:American affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:Argentine rugby union referees → Category:Argentine affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:English rugby union referees → Category:English affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:Fijian rugby union referees → Category:Fijian affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:French rugby union referees → Category:French affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:Italian rugby union referees → Category:Italian affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:Japanese rugby union referees → Category:Japanese affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:Portuguese rugby union referees → Category:Portuguese affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:Romanian rugby union referees → Category:Romanian affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:Scottish rugby union referees → Category:Scottish affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:Uruguayan rugby union referees → Category:Uruguayan affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:Welsh rugby union referees → Category:Welsh affiliated rugby union referees
- The four newly-created (governing body) categories to be merged as below:
(End of additional text added for clarification: -- Ham105 (talk), 13–15 April 2018)
- Category:ARU referees and Category:Australian rugby union referees → Category:Australian affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:IRFU referees and Category:Irish rugby union referees → Category:Irish affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:NZR referees and Category:New Zealand rugby union referees → Category:New Zealand affiliated rugby union referees
- Category:SARU referees and Category:South African rugby union referees → Category:South African affiliated rugby union referees
- Rationale: Avoids substantial duplication. The parent categories could be merged to, say, "Category:Rugby union referees by national affiliation" or "Rugby union referees by governing body affiliation" or similar. Rasivhenge and Walsh can be safely included within two categories. -- Ham105 (talk) 03:27, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- I am not too bothered by this personally, but know some editors like to categorise people by nationality. There is also Category:Rugby union referees by nationality to consider. @Ham105: do you mind if I ping Shudde and TheMightyPeanut. They were involved in the Rasivhenge discussion and know more about rugby than me. Am surprised they have not commented already. AIRcorn (talk) 10:19, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- By all all means, please do. I have contacted those editors as well. In regards to Category:Rugby union referees by nationality, that was the parent category I was referring to. It could be become Category:Rugby union referees by national affiliation", or perhaps "Rugby union referees by governing body affiliation" or similar. -- Ham105 (talk) 11:56, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- I see you left a talk page note so there is no need to ping them. Thanks for that. AIRcorn (talk) 20:32, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Comment: @Djln: As the creator of all these categories to be moved, would you please explain whether the referees mentioned in my earlier comment above have been excluded from Category:SARU referees by intention or unintentionally? I'd like to understand the scope of this category. @Aircorn: I think your move proposal has some issues. Some minor ones to start – the "Australian Rugby Union" no longer exists under that name, neither does the New Zealand Rugby Union. -- Ham105 (talk) 17:56, 17 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- I am fine with the changing to the new official names (New Zealand Rugby and Rugby Australia). I still think Referees affiliated with Rugby Australia is better than Rugby Australia referees, but it does solve the virtually identical category name problem somewhat. AIRcorn (talk) 22:15, 17 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Comment The answer to the question as to the right name is that it should be the present one. The precedent is alumni categories, where the alumni of a merged or rename college are deemed to have attended the successor. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:27, 18 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Comment @Ham: I was quiet happy to just have referees defined by nationality. However the TheMightyPeanut insisted on placing two referees in "Category:Australian rugby union referees" even though they were not actually Australian. There are a number of referees who are employed by one union but have another nationality. I initially established "Category:Referees by rugby union" to try to resolve this issue. Some of these categories may not be fully populated, I may have unintentionally missed some referees out. Djln Djln (talk) 19:14, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Strong support for merge — It was the overwhelming consensus in this recent discussion re players with dual nationalities that a player's representative country is more important than his actual nationality (which is not necessarily easily verifiable and might be completely non-notable), and I still see no reason why the same principle should not apply to referees. TheMightyPeanut (talk) 06:10, 21 March 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Relisted from CFD 2018 March 15 to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.Relisting comment: This discussion has now moved on to a proposal to merge 4 referees-by-union categories and their respective nationality categories into a new set of combined categories. The 4 referees-by-union categories were not tagged (I will tag them now for this relisting), but more importantly there has been no discussion of the fact that
Category:Rugby union referees by nationality has 16 consistently-named subcategories. Does this proposal intend to create 4 exceptions to that naming convention? Or to remove those 4 nationalities from
Category:Rugby union referees by nationality? Either option breaks the consistency principle of categorisation. The number of loose ends here currently adds up to an unworkable proposal.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:29, 13 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Clarification of Merge proposal in reply to questions from BrownHairedGirl: My intention is for consistently-named subcategories; there is no plan to create 4 naming exceptions. I have added additional text to my merge proposal above (between Green markers) to define the suggested change better and to try to make this intention clearer. In essence:
- (a) the word "affiliated" will be inserted into the names of the existing 16 consistently-named subcategories;
- (b) the parent category will include the words "by national affiliation" instead of "by nationality";
- (c) Rasta Rasivhenge will be a member of both the South African affiliated and Australian affiliated categories; and
- (d) Steve Walsh will be a member of both the New Zealand affiliated and Australian affiliated categories.
This will avoid having two parent categories for rugby referees (currently more than a hundred pages) with almost identical set membership (greater than 95% overlap) as per WP:OVERLAPCAT. -- Ham105 (talk) 04:19, 13 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Re @BrownHairedGirl:'s comment – there are currently only 4 referees-by-union categories, so that in itself is inconsistent. As a full 'merging' proposal, I would recommend expanding @Ham105:'s proposal to:
- Merging Category:ARU referees and Category:Australian rugby union referees to Category:Australian affiliated rugby union referees
- Merging Category:IRFU referees and Category:Irish rugby union referees to Category:Irish affiliated rugby union referees
- Merging Category:NZR referees and Category:New Zealand rugby union referees to Category:New Zealand affiliated rugby union referees
- Merging Category:SARU referees and Category:South African rugby union referees to Category:South African affiliated rugby union referees
- Renaming 12 other categories in Category:Rugby union referees by nationality from "<country> rugby union referees" to "<country> affiliated rugby union referees".
- Merging Category:Rugby union referees by nationality and Category:Rugby union referees by governing body to Category:Rugby union referees by affiliation
- TheMightyPeanut (talk) 04:20, 13 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Agreed - I think TheMightyPeanut has clarified my proposal in much the same fashion as I did a few minutes earlier (we must have been typing our replies at the same time!) - but it is quite a simple proposal in reality and will not affect naming consistency amongst the subcategories -- Ham105 (talk) 04:32, 13 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Procedural comment. thanks for clarifying your intent, @Ham105. However, your proposal still can not be the basis of a valid CfD consensus unless you
- set out precisely what you intend to do with each named category, listing all of them as TheMightyPeanut did with categories above. A vague wave at "12 other categories" is not enough.
- tag each category which you intend to merge or rename
- If that is done, then the closer can weigh the discussion and see if there is a consensus.
- But without the tagging and listing, there can be no consensus.
- I should also stress that this discussion has already become v long and confusing. It might be better to take this idea off to a discussion in project space, and come back to CfD later with a single, clear proposal, properly formatted. The chances of more editors wading through all this discussion are slim, which makes it unlikely that a closer would conclude that there is a consensus for the radical step of renaming the standard "nationality fooers" (used across all other occupations) to the novel "nationality-affiliated fooers". Breaking such a convention used on tens of thousands of categories would need clear and broad consensus that this case genuinely requires an exception. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:26, 13 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- All categories to be renamed or merged now specified and each category tagged. -- Ham105 (talk) 06:40, 15 April 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.