October 2

Category:Pending AfC submissions by Doncram

• Propose deleting Category:Pending AfC submissions by Doncram (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Empty maintenance category, which was created by the user named in it to serve a personal purpose outside the purview of AFC. From what I can tell, Doncram is under a "no creating new articles in mainspace" sanction that has him confined to AFC review, so he created this himself to hold all of his AFC submissions -- but the bot that disables category declarations on AFC drafts keeps disabling it when he tries to use it, because drafts can only be in categories that are transcluded by AFC maintenance and status templates and not in categories that are directly declared in the [[Category:Bla bla]] format. This means that there are several drafts textlinking to the category but no drafts filed in the category, because the bot keeps converting attempts to file articles in the category back into text links again. From the category's "what links here", further, it only seems to be in use on three drafts, meaning that we're not talking about a massive onslaught of drafts that needs special handling.
If AFC ever decides that there's a need to categorize some or all users' submissions as "Pending AFC submissions by Specific User", then it will create a template to tag and categorize drafts accordingly, but until such a need has been identified Doncram's submissions aren't of any unique priority that would require special treatment over and above the rest of the AFC queue. If Doncram wants to keep track of his submissions to AFC for his own personal purposes, then he can always do that by means of a personal worklist in his sandbox -- but they don't need their own dedicated category in the pending AFC review queue, especially if it doesn't even work properly. Bearcat (talk) 19:55, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete in the spirit of WP:USERNOCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:19, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 December 11#Categories by username * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. Created with good intent but proven to be useless after the event. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:02, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. I'm not too happy to randomly discover that this conversation is going on, with speculation and judgments (not awful ones, but still), without informing me. User:Bearcat, why not notify me? A different editor had questioned the existence of the category, and I responded and made some changes that partially addressed the functionality, and also I made a request to the owner of the bot which has most directly undermined it, which you are not aware of. Y'all are harshing unnecessarily IMHO, don't y'all have better things to do?

I don't like the insinuation of my wanting special treatment. It wasn't crazy or selfish or anything like that, as there previously existed such a category under slightly different name, which was in use for a couple years then not used for a while and was deleted. It is a reasonable kind of thing to allow, for myself and other editors. Keeping a worklist is not the same; it doesn't update.

I do happen to have at least 6 articles under AfC review, which on average have been pretty long outstanding, which is mildly demoralizing, by the way, although I thought there were more (and maybe there are). One function of this would be to direct attention of AfC editors familiar with types of articles I often create (which was a good function of the previous version). And some of the articles outstanding are definitely valid articles (I know from experience), but are list-articles which as a type seems to be outside the knowledge base or comfort area of most or all AfC editors. Having a functional category would assist in raising discussion elsewhere about that, about list-article drafts of mine or more generally (and if the functionality were fixed, then similar categories could be used to classify outstanding AfC-submitted articles for analysis/discussion along these lines).

However I do see that the category is not working now, and now it is targeted by this proceeding, and I know it is generally futile or extremely difficult to fight this kind of bureaucratic proceeding once it is started in, arguably, the wrong forum. Like people opening an ANI process which brings in arguably bad or uninformed actors on a sourcing question, and which cannot be stopped, rather than discussing a source at the appropriate forum that exists for evaluating reliable sources, which led to my current restriction. It is, frankly, a bit rude and disrespectful and demoralizing that the arguably wrong forum is being imposed, again. I am not especially resenting you nominating this and participating here, because this is how it goes, and it has been raised in this forum. But a politer alternative would have been to consult with me and then potentially assist my raising the technical/functional matter and the more general problem more successfully, or allowing me to request deletion myself. FYI, there are no longer any usages of the template; i deleted the last usages before noticing the link from this discussion to the category. --Doncram (talk) 23:32, 6 October 2022 (UTC) (revised 00:43, 7 October 2022 (UTC))[reply]

Firstly, I use Twinkle to create nominations. Twinkle does certainly fail sometimes to complete all the steps, but if and when it does that it's not a problem that can be pinned on me as a failure on my part — because it isn't a nominator's responsibility to do a follow-up review of whether Twinkle actually completed all the steps Twinkle was supposed to complete. And as nice as it would be if everybody always got notified of everything at all times, it just doesn't actually happen that way — it's just reality on here that for a lot of different reasons you're not always going to get notified of every last thing that might be of interest to you, so it is ultimately your responsibility to stay on top of those things on your own rather than sitting back waiting for notifications that you're not always going to get.

Secondly, nobody attacked you; I understand the reasoning you thought you were aiming for, and was simply trying to explain why it doesn't work. Drafts simply cannot ever have any categories on them that are directly declared, and can only be in maintenance categories that are transcluded by AFC maintenance and status templates — and bots simply don't have a way to distinguish between "category that should not be here at all" and "category that should be treated as a special exception", which is why your request over a month ago for this category to be coded as a special exemption from the bot process didn't go anywhere either. There just isn't any way to make the bot ignore a hardcoded category declaration on a draft, meaning there just isn't any way to keep this category populated.

What may have been done a decade ago, under different circumstances and different rules and different processes than we have now, has no bearing on what can be done today — as much as it might suck, the AFC queue is significantly backlogged, so it can take weeks for everybody's draft submissions to get reviewed. But that doesn't mean AFC owes your drafts special attention, over and above everybody else's drafts, just because they're yours, especially if there's just no way to make the category work the way you intended it to.

The only chance this ever has of drafts actually being able to stay in it without getting removed again is if AFC decides to create a template to categorize all AFC drafts for the identity of their creator, because drafts can only be filed in categories that are transcluded by AFC maintenance templates. Bearcat (talk) 04:13, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Request: I see that I cannot myself rename or move this category, which I was about to try to do. If the decision of this process is to "delete" it, could the closer please rename it and move it to my user space (changing it so it is an article and no longer functionally a category), so that the history is maintained. To, say, User:Doncram/Former category Pending AfC submissions by Doncram. So that I might reference it and revisit history in future potential action or proposal to restore such a function for others. --Doncram (talk) 00:07, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And converting a category into a sandbox page would accomplish what? Bearcat (talk) 04:13, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Thai national heritage films

• Propose deleting Category:Thai national heritage films (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: WP:TOPTEN violation. Although there's no head article to explain exactly what a "Thai national heritage film" is, and most of the articles filed here provide absolutely no context for their inclusion either, I've been able to sort out from one of the articles (Bad Genius) that the Thai Film Archive releases an annual list of films from the past year that it has deemed culturally or artistically significant -- basically Canada's Top Ten, but for Thailand instead of Canada.
Accordingly, a properly sourced article that listed the inducted films would be fine, but we don't categorize for inclusion in other organizations' proprietary and copyrighted ranking lists. Bearcat (talk) 19:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:21, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Scientists of the Ayyubid Sultanate

• Propose merging Category:Scientists of the Ayyubid Sultanate to Category:Scholars of the Ayyubid Sultanate

Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only two one subcategoryies. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:13, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Al-Andalusi (talk · contribs) has added another subcat (astronomers, alongside the older one for physicians). – Fayenatic London 20:25, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge keeping any subcats in place pending any discussion of them. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:04, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Alawite communities in Syria

• Propose deleting Category:Alawite communities in Syria (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: There is no need for this categorization of towns with an Alawite, Sunni or Druze majority. We do not see such categories in countries with religious or cultural pluralism, such as the United States or Iran and many other countries. Sakiv (talk) 17:44, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - the nom's rationale is mistaken: eg Category:Jewish communities in the United States and many others in Category:Ethnic enclaves in the United States and Category:Ethnic enclaves by country. Oculi (talk) 18:08, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Hm, nearly all populated places in the northwest of Syria are or belong in this category, across two adjacent governorates and a few more adjacent districts of other governorates. Within this region it is not a defining characteristic at all. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:23, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 10:48, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - it is still relevant, especially in the context of the ongoing civil war in Syria and politics there which are often heavily influenced by religious orientation. The nominator's claim of WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST is both objectively false and inconsequential. Inter&anthro (talk) 03:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment What does the civil war have to do with this discussion? The category suggests that these villages/towns are inhabited exclusively by Alawites, and this is a huge mistake. There are more Alawites in Damascus than in any other region of Syria. The problem with this categories is that it is understood that they are like ghettos or have some kind of autonomy.--Sakiv (talk) 22:03, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - In the Middle East, the practice of endogamy within religious communities has meant that they come close to being ethnicities. If a place is dominated by people of one religious community, that deserves categorisation. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:09, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Province of Saxony

• Propose purging Category:Province of Saxony (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: purge populated places, this is a history category about a former province, it should not contain current places. Also per precedent Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_September_3#Category:Province_of_Brandenburg. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:54, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 10:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Maybe we can add a note to the cat page to keep people from doing this again? Furius (talk) 17:24, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete and move main article into parent Category:Provinces of Prussia. The cited precedent was left containing only Province of Brandenburg‎ and Category:People from the Province of Brandenburg‎. That People sub-cat is contained anyway in Category:People from former German states in Brandenburg and Category:Prussian people by province, so it now appears a mistake to have kept Category:Province of Brandenburg. Now, as for Saxony, I can't see any valid content other than the lead article and the people sub-cat again. – Fayenatic London 15:11, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• That is perfectly in line with the nomination, I support this too. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:10, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. follows precedent. Agathoclea (talk) 14:11, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

African-American businesspeople

• Propose merging Category:African-American sports executives and administrators to Category:African-American businesspeople and Category:American sports executives and administrators
• Propose merging Category:African-American bankers to Category:African-American businesspeople and Category:American bankers
• Propose merging Category:African-American business executives to to Category:African-American businesspeople and Category:American business executives
• Propose merging Category:African-American company founders to to Category:African-American businesspeople and Category:American company founders
• Propose merging Category:African-American investors to to Category:African-American businesspeople and Category:American investors

Nominator's rationale: merge as trivial intersections between ethnicity and occupation, see also WP:EGRS. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:40, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 10:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep -- I checked three of these and they are all well-populated. My view is that if an intersection can be properly populated, it ought to be allowed. In this case, these are people emerging from the era of segregation, when they were significantly disadvantaged, so that the achievement is all the greater. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:18, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep --I agree with Peterkingiron. They make sense in that they break down a larger category into more manageable entities and will only grow larger as more biographies are added.Patapsco913 (talk) 21:29, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Architecture by country

• Propose renaming:

• Category:Architecture of Afghanistan to Category:Architecture in Afghanistan
• Category:Architecture of Albania to Category:Architecture in Albania
• Category:Architecture of Algeria to Category:Architecture in Algeria

• Category:Yugoslav architecture to Category:Architecture in Yugoslavia
• Category:Architecture of Zimbabwe to Category:Architecture in Zimbabwe
• Category:Architecture of Czechoslovakia to Category:Architecture in Czechoslovakia (appended to this nomination on relisting)

Nominator's rationale: Many sub-categories already use "in", e.g. the sub-cats of Category:Baroque architecture by country. The discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 September 2#Architecture by country and style is going in the direction of using "in" rather than "of". In that discussion, I gave examples such as the Aswan Dam in Egypt being categorised as Soviet architecture, and there is a preference to exclude it from the Soviet category; to that end, the word "in" would make the criteria clearer. – Fayenatic London 10:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:28, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support --Privybst (talk) 18:19, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose simply renaming as proposed. The current scheme is a result of a 2019 CfD, where it was noted that the Architecture of Foo formulation covers a dual meaning: architecture within a country's geographical boundaries, and architecture culturally/historically connected to the country. If renaming to Architecture in Foo is to be considered, it needs to be accompanied by a split of members in the latter sense into separate categories. For example, there's Category:French architecture outside France, which is understandably included under Architecture of France but would be blatantly incorrect under Architecture in France. There's Category:Chinese architecture in Thailand which is clearly not in China. All the nominated categories will need to be checked for such members, and a separate tree set up to house them. --Paul_012 (talk) 14:52, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Paul_012 Thank you for finding those. In addition I only found Category:Serbian architecture outside Serbia. Would it work to place a parent category e.g. Serbian architecture above Architecture in Serbia? Would its parent be Architecture by nationality above Architecture by country? (that seems inappropriate – I hope we can do better than that.) – Fayenatic London 12:36, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When preparing the 2019 CfD, I marked the categories for Armenia, Cambodia, China, Denmark, the Netherlands, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, India, Iran, Italy, Japan, Morocco, North Korea, Portugal, Russia, Serbia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Taiwan, Thailand, and Vietnam as warranting splitting. I don't remember the exact reason for each of them, but generally they contained subcategories or articles that are more about the architectural tradition than the geographical location. (I was being conservative, so some might not actually be needed.) There's Category:Spanish Revival architecture and Category:Isabelline architecture under the Spain category, for example, that contain subcategories about the Americas. And Category:Dutch Colonial architecture under the Netherlands. Many of these are nested under by period or by style subcategories, and some aren't currently subdivided by location. There are also individual articles like Statue of Liberty under the France category, for which the categories will need to be checked. I don't think Architecture by nationality would be a good parent. Most that warrant their own category should be somehow accommodated under Category:Architectural styles Category:Architecture by style. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:11, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Pinging Levivich and Santasa99 from the last discussion. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:13, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree with Paul. Per the 2019 CFD, these shouldn't be renamed until/unless each one is looked at to figure out the of/in issue. Some may need to be split (into "in" and "of" or "outside of") instead of just renamed. Paul explains it better (thanks for the ping). Levivich (talk) 16:20, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Thanks Paul_012. I don't remember previous discussions, so I need to check those, but on first glimps here, one thing I am certain - creating parent per nationality, or in some cases even ethnicity, is wrong and should be avoided at all costs. Only per country makes sense, i.e. Architecture in X (country), unless we can prove that architectural style which includes Y nation/ethnicity name in its own actually exists. (I am not surprised, not in the slightest, that Fayenatic was able to find that incredible category named on non-existent "Serbian architecture outside Serbia"-based on non-existent "Serbian architecture", but from experience I can say it's not the only misappropriation based on ethno-national identity or name, even if it means making up names and in this case styles, within Balkan scope.)--౪ Santa ౪^99° 20:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you guys/gals don't mind, I have emptied three items "Serbian architecture outside Serbia" contained, and I am not absolutely sure but should it be a problem if we considered it for deletion through this discussion?--౪ Santa ౪^99° 20:37, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Before Santasa99 emptied one of them out of process, I was compiling the following list of content that was categorised as architecture outside its country of origin:

• Category:Architecture of Armenia includes Category:Armenian buildings in Turkey and some bui:ldings in Azerbaijan
• Category:Architecture of China includes Category:Chinese architecture in Malaysia‎, Category:Chinese architecture in Thailand‎ and Grauman's Chinese Theatre in US
• Category:Architecture of Denmark includes List of castles in Skåne in Sweden and Jensen Alvarado Ranch in US (also Category:Buildings and structures by Danish architects includes e.g. Category:Jørn Utzon buildings worldwide, but that parenting is perfectly clear already)
• Category:Architecture of Egypt currently parents Category:Ayyubid architecture and Category:Mamluk architecture, but these could be moved up, as the latter already has an "in Egypt" sub-cat
• Category:French architecture outside France includes subcat for French Colonial, Statue of Liberty, a French-built bridge in Syria, and various French-style buildings
• Category:Architecture of Germany includes Category:Resort architecture and Church of the Saviour, Baku, AZ
• Category:Architecture of Greece indirectly contains Category:Ancient Greek theatres (4 outside Greece), clear already
• Category:Architecture of India contains Category:Bengali architecture‎ which contains Category:Architecture of Bangladesh‎
• Category:Architecture of Iran contains (at least) Category:Persian-Caucasian architecture‎ and Khanqah-e-Mualla Noorbakshia Khaplu Bala in Pakistan
• Category:Architecture of Italy contains Category:Ancient Roman buildings and structures – clear already)
• Category:Architecture of Japan contains Four Boxes Gallery in Denmark and Shofuso Japanese House and Garden in US
• Category:Architecture of Morocco includes Minbar of the Kutubiyya Mosque directly (now via Almoravid architecture) and (at least) Synagogue of Santa María la Blanca via Category:Almohad architecture
• Category:Architecture of the Netherlands includes Category:Dutch Colonial architecture‎ and Category:Dutch Colonial Revival architecture‎
• Category:Architecture of North Korea now contains Mansudae Overseas Projects (colossal statues in other countries)
• Category:Architecture of Portugal includes Category:Portuguese Colonial architecture‎
• Category:Architecture of Russia by period currently contains Category:Architecture of the Soviet Union – clear enough, that is, expected to include construction in the other former Soviet republics
• Category:Architecture of the Soviet Union also includes dams built elsewhere with Soviet assistance: Aswan Dam in Egypt, Naghlu Dam and Sardeh Band Dam in Afghanistan
• Category:Serbian architecture outside Serbia – two monuments in North Macedonia, and Serbian Orthodox church buildings worldwide
• Category:Architecture of Slovenia includes K67 kiosk (an exported design) and others via Buildings and structures by Slovenian architects
• Category:Architecture of Spain includes Category:Spanish Colonial architecture‎, Category:Isabelline architecture‎ including Dominican Republic, and Category:Herrerian architecture including Puebla Cathedral in Mexico

• I did not spot any similar current content for Cambodia, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand or Vietnam.

• Some of these are no problem at all, but some like the French category hold substantial content, and appear valid and useful. That French category holds a mish-mash of styles, and I do not think it would help to put it under "architectural styles" as if French-outside-France was itself a style. Some countries have valid material but not enough to justify a separate sub-cat. I am minded to say we should stick with the prior consensus and keep "Architecture of" as the top category for each country's architecture. – Fayenatic London 21:26, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with Fayenatic, I think, and using either "of" or "in", at least for the time being, is OK, I have no particular preference - actually, I do, at least I do think that, if we are talking about architecture as a distinct art form, then we need to be careful and consider first discipline and then style as specific characteristic. Maybe I would be clearer if I say that it's not "French architecture" if something was built in French Guinea by French, just like in case of Soviet constructing a dam across the Middle East doesn't make it Soviet architecture, simply because hydroelectric power plants and dams belong to a civil-engineering specifically branch of hydro-engineering which have no distinct architectural style related to it. Meanwhile, there is no Soviet architecture per-se, we have real-socialist classicism, sometimes called Stalinist arch., or, sometime later, brutalist, and other styles related to those socio-political circumstances, but only when we talk about civil-engineering discipline of architectural engineering aka. building engineering. I think something should be done about these X-country/nation arch. outside of X, unless we have Ottoman arch. outside Turkey, or Roman arch. outside Italy, and so on.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 22:14, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Thank you for the huge effort. I do think it would be optimal if we could come up with a way to systematically arrange these, but I can't quite think of a satisfactory solution either. The simplest option, aside from retaining the current arrangement, would probably be to have both Architecture of Foo and Architecture in Foo, with the latter falling under the former, but that isn't very helpful navigation-wise. As for the category breakdown, the Thailand category contains King Chulalongkorn Memorial Building in Sweden and Category:Overseas Thai Buddhist temples several steps down; likewise, Vietnam has Category:Overseas Vietnamese religious buildings and structures. (There are also Burmese, Cambodian and Japanese categories, though they're not currently parented under the architecture tree.) I think I expected Category:Angkorian sites, which contains sites in Laos and Thailand, to be under the Khmer category. South Korea and Taiwan I probably just included on the basis of needing to be merged if construed as traditions (Korean/Chinese). --Paul_012 (talk) 23:15, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• There is some diaspora architecture, there is some architecture by style related to a certain country, but generally categorizing in country seems ok. There are also questionable category assignments such as Khanqah-e-Mualla Noorbakshia Khaplu Bala to an Iranian category while the article text does not make any reference to Iran. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:32, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 10:55, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Clarification of previous comment: diaspora architecture should be put in categories of their own, architecture by style related to a certain country is quite questionable (but if kept should be in categories of their own), for the remainder "in" is perfectly alright. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of the out-of-country content is held via sub-cats which are (i) clearly named and (ii) allowable under the WP:SUBCAT rule. For Chinese architecture, there is enough content to create Category:Chinese architecture outside China holding articles directly as well as sub-cats. Perhaps for the Soviet-built dams the best name might be Category:Soviet construction outside the Soviet Union, although I would not object to Category:Soviet architecture outside the Soviet Union like the others. The Iranian architecture example above is presumably Safavid architecture so should go into that sub-cat. Then all we need is Category:Danish architecture outside Denmark, and all the examples identified so far would be held via sub-cats rather than directly in the main country category. It might then be appropriate to collate them in a new Category:Diaspora architecture within Category:Diasporas.
  • The effect on the nominated categories would be that we should keep them named "Architecture of". Perhaps it would be useful to create a header template to appear on each country's category page, mentioning that its sub-categories may include architecture in other countries designed or influenced by architects and styles of this country.
  • We should still rename Category:Ottoman architecture to Category:Architecture of the Ottoman Empire, and Category:Yugoslav architecture to Category:Architecture of Yugoslavia. – Fayenatic London 14:41, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • The effect on the nominated categories would be that we should keep them named "Architecture of". --> That is not necessarily the case, because when we would have "in" we can simply add a See also note to a diaspora category if one exists. Because the large amount of countries do not have a diaspora category, "in" is still the more obvious choice. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:45, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • I agree that that this is an acceptable alternative. However, as there are further out-of-country contents "hidden" in e.g. Almoravid architecture or Jørn Utzon buildings, for which we will not be creating "diaspora architecture" parents, I would still prefer using "of" at the top, with an explanatory note about the content. – Fayenatic London 12:31, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Fellow editors, this thing with "diaspora architecture" is all wrong, and whatever you do don't reaffirm that nonsense. In reality, at the very most, diaspore can have its "buildings and constructions" but to claim architecture is insane, for two reasons: national arch doesn't exist, and even worse, it feeds nationalistic POV pushing on the project. (We have large number of articles on arch - which you should check - it's a messy but comprehensive group of articles, and nowhere will you be able find the division of architecture by nation-nationality-ethnicity, including the diaspora; that some arch styles are named per culture within which it was developed (Morish, Ottoman, Persian, etc.) that is not a reason to use similar pattern and divide it per modern nations (even when categorizing Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Thai, etc. arch we should be careful not to confuse style with construction of modern buildings and utility) If any discussion comes up on this particular topic in the future, I am willing to elaborate in more comprehensive fashion, but for now, please avoid any action that would cement its usage or prevent any attempts to fix it.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 19:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Here's additional argument in form of a question(s): what is French architecture outside France(?); if French money, architect, builders erect a building/facility outside a French soil and the building is in style of modern arch or even in pseudo-morish style or neo-classical, etc. - what makes it "French diaspora architecture" or "French architecture outside France", specifically, and not simply "French building and construction in foo"? ౪ Santa ౪^99° 19:30, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• @Santasa99: there is a discussion about the French category here: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_September_20#Category:French_architecture_outside_France. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support renaming of both "of" and "Foo's arch" to "Arch in Foo" per nom. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 19:45, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:00, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:University of the People alumni

• Propose deleting Category:University of the People alumni (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: this category was created five years ago for just one person: does it still make sense? In the meantime, it was also used to claim that Simone Biles was an alumna of the "University of the People", which is a hoax because she just recorded a couple of commercials (in the form of "interviews") but she actually never studied at this online school (see also https://www.uopeople.reviews/simone-biles/). Dom21a (talk) 17:19, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Agree that a single-article category does not make sense just by itself. This might fall under the "smallcat exception rule" though (as part of a full tree). Marcocapelle (talk) 14:37, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:54, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - this is 'part of an established tree' and in any case the University of the People is relatively new (2009) and its alumni will be establishing notability. It seems likely that the category could already be increased with existing articles. Oculi (talk) 18:56, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Editor's pronouns templates

• Propose renaming Category:Editor's pronouns templates to Category:Wikipedia editors' pronouns templates

Nominator's rationale: Since these templates are only relevant for internal communication with Wikipedia's editors, I think the "Wikipedia" prefix is needed. Also, I'm not sure if the proposed name is good enough, so feel free to propose better names. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 21:01, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I suggest Category:User pronoun templates like Category:User namespace templates and some of its sub-cats (not that this one belongs there). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fayenatic london (talk • contribs) 08:49, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:53, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Rename to Category:Pronoun selection templates, which is a better description of what these do. I don't see the need for any words before "pronoun". * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People from Udmurtia

• Propose merging Category:People from Zavyalovsky District, Udmurt Republic to Category:People from Udmurtia
• Propose merging Category:People from Yakshur-Bodyinsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
• Propose merging Category:People from Votkinsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
• Propose merging Category:People from Vavozhsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
• Propose merging Category:People from Syumsinsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
• Propose merging Category:People from Mozhginsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
• Propose merging Category:People from Malopurginsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
• Propose merging Category:People from Kiznersky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
• Propose merging Category:People from Igrinsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia
• Propose merging Category:People from Kambarsky District to Category:People from Udmurtia

Nominator's rationale: Only 1 or 2 articles in each Rathfelder (talk) 21:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This contains 8 articles on ru.wiki, so I think there is room to grow. OTOH, almost all of those articles are in the subcat Category:People from Kambarsky (i.e. the town), so perhaps we can just have that when the time comes and let the district go... Furius (talk) 21:43, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I think it makes much more sense to categorise people by towns and cities. That is almost always where they do whatever makes them notable. Rathfelder (talk) 21:48, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok then: Keep: Category:People from Yakshur-Bodyinsky District (5 articles on uk.wiki), Category:People from Votkinsky District (11 on ru.wiki), Category:People from Vavozhsky District (8 on uk.wiki), Category:People from Mozhginsky District (18 on uk.wiki), Category:People from Malopurginsky District (6 on uk.wiki), Category:People from Kiznersky District (9 on ru.wiki), Category:People from Igrinsky District (16 on ru.wiki). Delete Category:People from Kambarsky District and the rest. Furius (talk) 21:43, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support all. See more elaborate discussion elsewhere. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:40, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:52, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Medieval Iraqi people

• Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi people to Category:People of the medieval Islamic world
• Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi astronomers to Category:Astronomers of the medieval Islamic world
• Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi geographers to Category:Geographers of the medieval Islamic world
• Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi Jews to Category:Jews in the medieval Islamic world
• Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Jewish physicians of Iraq to Category:Medieval Jewish physicians and Category:Jews in the medieval Islamic world
• Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi mathematicians to Category:Mathematicians of the medieval Islamic world
• Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi physicians to Category:Physicians of the medieval Islamic world
• Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Iraqi writers to Category:Writers of the medieval Islamic world

Nominator's rationale: selectively merge and delete, Iraq did not exist in the middle ages. Most articles are in an Abbasid Caliphate category where they properly belong, so these articles do not have to be included in the merger. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge/delete per nom. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:34, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete/merge ArvindPalaskar (talk) 16:43, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

People from sultanates

• Propose renaming Category:Scholars of the Sultanate of Rum‎ to Category:Scholars from the Sultanate of Rum‎
• Propose renaming Category:Historians of the Sultanate of Rum to Category:Historians from the Sultanate of Rum
• Propose renaming Category:People of the Ayyubid Sultanate to Category:People from the Ayyubid Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:Scholars of the Ayyubid Sultanate to Category:Scholars from the Ayyubid Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:Astronomers of the Ayyubid Sultanate‎ to Category:Astronomers from the Ayyubid Sultanate‎
• Propose renaming Category:Physicians of the Ayyubid Sultanate to Category:Physicians from the Ayyubid Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:People of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:People from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:13th-century people of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:13th-century people from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:13th-century rabbis of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:13th-century rabbis from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:14th-century people of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:14th-century people from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:14th-century rabbis of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:14th-century rabbis from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:15th-century people of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:15th-century people from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:15th-century rabbis of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:15th-century rabbis from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:16th-century people of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:16th-century people from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:16th-century rabbis of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:16th-century rabbis from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:People of the Mamluk Sultanate by ethnic origin to Category:People from the Mamluk Sultanate by ethnic origin
• Propose renaming Category:Arabs of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:Arabs from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:People of the Mamluk Sultanate by occupation to Category:People from the Mamluk Sultanate by occupation
• Propose renaming Category:Religious leaders in the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:Religious leaders from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:Christian religious leaders in the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:Christian religious leaders from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:Rabbis of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:Rabbis from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:Scholars of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:Scholars from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:Mamluk-era historians to Category:Historians from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:Theologians of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category: Historians from the Mamluk Sultanate
• Propose renaming Category:People of the Adal Sultanate‎ to Category:People from the Adal Sultanate‎

Nominator's rationale: rename per precedent in this earlier discussion about empires. Presumably sultanates should be treated the same way as empires. Some subcategories already use "from", they have not been included in this nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:48, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]