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Delete FWIW, the Gambian article says it's organized by a fashion group. - RevelationDirect (talk) 18:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: First: It's a WP:SMALLCAT (1 P), but it can be expanded with stuff like Battle of Ane. More importantly: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 24#Category:Battles in Flanders set a precedent by deleting Category:Battles in Flanders and Category:Battles in Wallonia with the rationale: trivial intersection between military history and modern regions by language. My own support comment was: We categorise Category:Battles by "country" (i.e. "battles involving country X"), "period", "type" (naval, aerial etc.), and "war", but not location or geography. (French Wikipedia is one of very few who have a fr:Catégorie:Bataille par lieu, but apart from fr:Catégorie:Bataille sur le sol français, it is relatively empty). Only Flemish and Walloon nationalists would frame battles in terms of Flanders and Wallonia, especially if there is no parent Category:Battles in Belgium.
It turns out that Category:Battles in the Netherlands by province and its children were created only recently on 12 January 2021. There still is no Category:Battles by location or Battles by geography or anything like that. It's a "category tree orphan", just like Category:Battles in Flanders and Category:Battles in Wallonia were. Its parent Category:Battles involving the Netherlands is misleading, because "the Netherlands" as such wasn't necessarily a belligerent in these battles; they just took place on what is nowadays the territory of the Netherlands. (At the time of, say, the Siege of Deventer (1456), the Netherlands didn't even exist as a state yet). I think we should follow precedent and delete any battles category based on location/geography as a WP:NONDEFININGWP:TRIVIALWP:CROSSCAT. If we decide that it is still worth defining, then we should agree to set up a proper tree, and consider a WP:REFUND for Category:Battles in Flanders and Category:Battles in Wallonia. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:13, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update Marcocapelle and I propose the Manescheut ( M[erging] Ane / Scheut) principle: We put battle articles into historically applicable territory categories / trees such as the Battle of Scheut (nl:Slag bij Scheut) into Category:Duchy of Brabant, unless these don't exist, in which case we put them in a History of (modern territory) category, such as Battle of Ane into Category:History of Drenthe. We strive to apply the Manescheut principle in future CfMs pertaining to existing Battle in Fooland categories. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:46, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Category:History of Drenthe. The analogy with Flanders/Wallonia is not quite right though. If we would create something similar there, it should e.g. become Category:Battles in Hainaut. But that would create ambiguity e.g. for Category:Battles in Brabant because meanwhile the duchy of Brabant has been split in four modern provinces. So I would rather not categorize battles by modern province at all, even if some modern provinces, like Drenthe in this case, have a very long history. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:18, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. I was thinking something similar. Cats such as Category:Battles in Limburg (Netherlands), Category:Battles in North Brabant, Category:Battles in North Holland and Category:Battles in South Holland are based on the post-1839 borders, but contain mostly pre-1839 battles. E.g. during the Siege of Venlo (1373), most Venlonaren would probably have never even heard of "Limburg", much less a "Kingdom of the Netherlands". In that sense, these categories are somewhat similar to "Flanders" and "Wallonia", terms for the two linguistic-cultural regions of Belgium that became well-established in the 1830s and 1840s (before the language border was demarcated in 1963, and the country fully federalised in the 1990s). And although terms such as "Drenthe" and "Overijssel" have existed for much longer, "Drenthe" certainly didn't yet have its modern borders in 1227 (Battle of Ane), and if I'm not mistaken, the word Overissel does not show up in the historical record until 1458. These modern provincial borders just don't work very well for categorising battles.
nominator carried away, but not relevant to closure
PS: Calling that a "Battle in Limburg (Netherlands)" sounds like anachronistic invented tradition to me. Making something "Limburgian (Netherlands)" before "Limburg (Netherlands)" as such even existed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:18, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For pre-modern Brabant, we might use the nl:Slag bij Scheut of 1356 as an example. It has the following categories, which I'll group into "historically justifiable" and "historically arbitrary" for our purposes here:
"But even categorising them by Category:History of Drenthe doesn't really solve this problem, does it?" Agree, except that general "History of ... (modern territory)" categories are entirely acceptable at en.wp. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:55, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle Fair enough. How about we agree to put battles into historically applicable territory categories / trees such as Scheut to Category:Duchy of Brabant, unless these don't exist, in which case we put them in a History of (modern territory) category like Category:History of Drenthe? E.g. there is a County of Drenthe, but this appears to have been largely a legal fiction, and it has no category anyway, so Category:History of Drenthe is the proper place for an Ane-like battle article? (In fact, Battle of Ane is indeed already in Category:History of Drenthe, as I expected). Then we can apply that principle to all other Battle in Fooland categories that I would like to nominate next (merging is probably better than deleting in most cases). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:33, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Emirs of Madagali
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Surnames
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Delete per nom. We categorize families (if a larger number of articles exists), not names. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:31, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What number of articles is required to justify a dedicated category? Indeed the combination De Liagre Böhl seems unique and so anyway too rare. Thanks, Hansmuller (talk) 09:41, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hansmuller: Smallcat doesn't give a number but the working consensus has often been 5 articles, although not all editors would agree. - RevelationDirect (talk) 19:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Countries results at Miss Earth
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Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church by country
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Rename per nominator's rationale. Farragutful (talk) 18:59, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Euskal Herriko Futbol Txapelketa
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Propose deletingCategory:Euskal Herriko Futbol Txapelketa (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Single-article category for annual football friendly match - series justifies an article but not each edition, so no prospect of expansion of cat Crowsus (talk) 15:50, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 11:06, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - simply not needed. GiantSnowman 11:07, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Mission schools in Brunei
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Health professionals
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Nominator's rationale: for brevity and simplicity. I see no significant difference in meaning between "People in health professions" and "Health professionals", but the current phrase "People in health professions" is unnecessarily verbose and clumsy. This has led to a confusing variety of formats, which I have grouped above. Note that there are various other ways in which we could label this set of people, but for now it would be helpful if we could just simplify the wording, without prejudice to any further discussion. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs)
Comment/Question It looks like there are a number of other people first subcategories under Category:People by occupation (while most are not). Is the eventual intent to phase out the other "People in" subcategories? - RevelationDirect (talk) 22:54, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I wonder what the rationale was for originally naming it Category:People in the health professions > Category:People in health professions in the first place. One thing I can think of is that this wording was intended to signify a containercat: a group of professions rather than a profession in itself. Not sure if "health professional" is or isn't a proper generic term for this group of professions. If it is, then a renaming seems fine (nom's rationale seems to make sense, especially WP:CONSISTENT is a good point); until then I'm neutral. I note that a 2017 CfR didn't go anywhere: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 November 26#Category:People in health professions. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:38, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - looking through the subcats I don't see any (apart from one or two which probably should be removed anyway) that don't fit the proposed name and several already use it, eg Category:Lists of health professionals, which appears to have been thus named in 2007. (The 2017 cfd was quite different and also proposed by user:Rathfelder, a notorious creator at prodigious speed of ill-considered, misnamed and wrongly parented categories. Eg, true to form, Rathfelder created both Category:People from Belgrade in health professions and Category:People in health professions from Athens, consistent only in his inconsistency.) Oculi (talk) 00:48, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Oculi: that's a fine summary of Rathefelder's antics.
I would add that he also did enormous amounts of recategorization on the basis of fundamental misuderstandigs of the topic. See e.g. his spree of categorising Dublin biographies, on the basis of his belief that Before 1994 there was no distinction between the city and the county, as I understand it. County Dublin was created in the 1190s, so he was almost exactly 800 years out.
Back on topic: which cats do you think should be removed? Is it those in the "others" group? BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 15:49, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:High-stakes poker players
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Nominator's rationale: There is no official definition of "high stakes" in poker. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, there are very few, if any, notable low- or middle-stakes poker players (Richard Nixon). Clarityfiend (talk) 11:35, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But that just because every midstakes player gets discarded as not noteworthy, eventhue they have merit of inclusion based on their performance on the circuit tour. TheElvisBelievingBumbleBee (talk) 14:39, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Religious groups in Trinidad and Tobago
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Category:Colossal Order (company) games
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Oppose/Wrong Venue The main article is Colossal Order (company) and we should defer per WP:C2D. At the article level, there is a case to be made that the company has become the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC though since "Colossal Order" is a redirect (albeit it one with 13 articles pointing to it). But that's a discussion for a WP:RM nomination and, if that passes, obviously this category should be renamed at that point. - RevelationDirect (talk) 10:20, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:English cricket captains
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Support in principle, but oppose the naming. Whilst I support this, my concern lies around the subcategories, which are predominantly English county teams. Many of these would have been captained by people who were not English. Maybe it needs to be renamed to something along the lines of Category:Captains of teams in English senior cricket. I see that's a bit washy, but something more specific. StickyWicket aka AA (talk) 09:51, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are quite right: county captains can be of any nationality. England captains are not necessarily English either. Mike Denness was Scottish, Eoin Morgan is Irish (Dublin) and many were South African. One naturalises to British, not English. Oculi (talk)
Oppose. The proposed new titles implies that is for "captains of the England cricket team", but the scope of the category is not "captains of the England cricket team". --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 12:15, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The scope is exactly captains of the England cricket team (except the women are missing, which is easily remedied); the wording of the category description has changed somewhat but in 2004 it was "This is a list of the 75 cricketers who have captained England in at least one test match" and the word 'test' was dropped in this edit in 2007. In fact there are 2 England cricket teams in each format, men's and wowen's. Football and rugby have avoided this by not having categories for captains but I suppose the role of the captain in cricket is crucial. Oculi (talk) 01:51, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support renaming to reflect scope and usage, i.e. captains of England cricket teams (irrespective of their nationality), not captains (of any cricket teams) who are/were of English nationality. wjematherplease leave a message... 13:19, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Dutch political prisoners
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Nominator's rationale:WP:C2C siblings in Category:Political prisoners by country are almost all named Category:Political prisoners in Fooland. I think this category is meant for the location in which political prisoners have been detained, rather than their nationality. In this case, all 17 people in the category just so happen to have been both imprisoned in the Netherlands (including the former colony of the Dutch East Indies, which was part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands until 1949) and have had Dutch nationality, but that's not always the case. Dutch nationals could be imprisoned abroad, and non-Dutch nationals could be imprisoned in the Netherlands. (Compare Otto Warmbier, a U.S. national imprisoned in North Korea; there is even a whole Category:American people imprisoned in North Korea like Warmbier). Incidentally, the 12 people in child Category:Boven-Digoel concentration camp detainees are all already in parent Category:Dutch political prisoners, so there is some overcat here. Nevertheless, this subcategory is even more clearly about location rather than nationality; "Boven-Digoel concentration camp" was obviously not a country, let alone a nationality, but a location inside the former Dutch East Indies, in a region today known as the Boven Digoel Regency in the Indonesian province of South Papua. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:31, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PPS: Incidentally, Category:Indonesian political prisoners also includes Category:Boven-Digoel concentration camp detainees. I guess this is because the Republik Indonesia has claimed sovereignty over the entire territory of the Dutch East Indies since its 17 August 1945 Proclamation of Indonesian Independence (Proklamasi), which the Netherlands did not recognise until the 27 December 1949 cession of sovereignty (soevereiniteitsoverdracht). So, having them in both in the Netherlands and in Indonesia may actually be a good idea per WP:NPOV, because then Wikipedia doesn't take a side on the question who was the legitimate authority in Boven-Digoel between 17 August 1945 and 27 December 1949. According to the Netherlands (and formally, probably also under international law), it was "Dutch" territory in which a rebellion against the Dutch government was taking place until 27 December 1949; according to the Republik Indonesia, it was "Indonesian" territory from 17 August 1945 onwards, which was temporarily occupied by the Dutch military during the Indonesian National Revolution (as part of the Netherlands' attempts to retain the Dutch East Indies as its colony) and (ab)used for detaining Republik Indonesia-aligned combatants in Dutch captivity. As a (Dutch) historian (residing in the Netherlands), I can understand both points of view. The Netherlands took even longer to recognise Belgium's independence between 1830 and 1839, but the Dutch withdrawal after the 1831 Ten days' campaign essentially made Belgian independence a fait accompli, and English Wikipedia usually also categorises all things Belgian as if the country has existed since the 4 October 1830 proclamation of independence (e.g. Category:Battles involving Belgium starts in 1830). It is also for this reason why I took 1829 as the end date for the List of wars in the southern Low Countries (1560–1829), so that from 1830 onwards, the List of wars involving Belgium can begin. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:48, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support renaming per nomination as well. As someone who spent a fair amount of time working on some of these articles in past years I see no reason to object to this slight reframing of the category to fit better with how things are done elsewhere. Dan Carkner (talk) 12:26, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for co-creating the category tree, and your support for renaming! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My pleasure. At some point in the future I hope to continue contributing more to this topic area and filling the categories a bit more. Dan Carkner (talk) 13:39, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Assassinated Central American politicians
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The result of the discussion was:delete. – FayenaticLondon 09:53, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Propose deleting Category:Assassinated Central American politicians by time (1 C)
Propose deleting Category:Assassinated Central American politicians by century (1 C)
Propose deleting Category:20th century assassinated Central American politicians (1 C, 1 P)
Propose deleting Category:1960s assassinated Central American politicians (1 P)
Nominator's rationale: delete, apparently abandoned category scheme. I am also not sure if generally North American categories need to be diffused to Central American. It seems enough to diffuse by country. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:10, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I'm generally open to expanding the Central America category tree but not here: this is a lot of overhead for what is currently 1 article (Mario Méndez Montenegro). I'm sure there's some growth potential but not enough to justify the tree. - RevelationDirect (talk) 10:35, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete "Central America" is quite uncommon for categorisation. "North America" and "Latin America" are more common, though I will admit that "North America" is often just "United States + Canada" in practice, even though it should encompass "Central America" in theory. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:39, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Sentient objects in fiction
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The result of the discussion was: no consensus to delete, so rename to Category:Fiction about sentient objects, which follows many similar precedents. No objection to creating a list which could include objects that should be taken out of the renamed category – so I will list the current contents on the category talk page. – FayenaticLondon 10:49, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:Sentient objects in fiction to Category:Fiction about intelligent objects
Nominator's rationale: More narrow scope; doesn't include fiction with minor mentions. Not sure why the object has to necessarily be sentient to qualify, so I modified it to "intelligent". ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:05, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support "Fiction about" per nom. However I doubt if these objects can be called intelligent. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:46, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It seems like a contradictio in terminis to label an "object" "sentient". Objects are inanimate, beings are sentient. Of course, in fiction everything is possible, and its subcategory Toy Story is a well-known example of that, but this parent seems difficult to define. A lot of items in this Category:Sentient objects in fiction don't seem to belong here. E.g. is the "Wind Waker" in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker "sentient"? Seems like a magical object but I wouldn't call it an organism that is alive or something. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:54, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is also a good point. Perhaps we should just delete the category after manually checking that the objects are somewhere in the tree of Category:Magic items. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:36, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 07:35, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support "Fiction about", since it widens the scope considerably. The current title implies that the articles are about the objects, rather than the works of fiction. But I prefer to keep the description about sentience. These are objects depicted as having a life , intelligence, and emotions of their own. Dimadick (talk) 21:48, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Listify, if wanted. This is all WP:OR. And even if it wasn't, this is conflating animated objects, with AI, with posession, with anthropomorhic objects, with, with, with... Every entry need explanation and clarification. Can't be done through categorisation. - jc37 10:04, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 02:22, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Fiction about. Don't know why this was relisted twice. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:49, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete / Listify with WP:RS per Jc37, who best captures what I was observing with my initial comment. These are quite disparate items that may not even be able to be lumped together under any heading. But if possible, this should be a list that fulfills the WP:LISTCRIT in some way, supported by WP:RS in each case, and otherwise removed. Categorisation isn't a good idea if we can't agree what we're even talking about, much less provide sources which may explain / demonstrate it. The proposed renaming doesn't address this fundamental question; e.g. the "Wind Waker" in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker seems like a magical object, but neither "sentient" nor "intelligent", and it probably requires too much in-universe knowledge to even WP:V this stuff. Listify with WP:RS, or nothing. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:48, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete / listify per jc37 and above. — Qwerfjkltalk 16:57, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - maybe listify. I'm of the opinion that "fiction about..." entails that the story is about the objects; looking at Toy Story as a cited example, main characters are sentient, but the story is about aspects of human emotion and experience first and the characters could just as easily have been animals or people. In order to be about the objects, you'd need some aspect of origin and mechanistic understanding, or at least magical explanation, neither of which are present (unlike Chucky ahem). To the "why sentient?" - Sentient need not be human level intelligence, but simply an ability to perceive and be self-aware; semantics maybe. Why am I on the fence between keeping and listifying the category? I think it is a valid concern about WP:Original research and this being a type of interpretive category. There are few cases where a human character explicitly points out that a character is a sentient object, and even if it were said, rarer still that this would feature in a WP:RS. Also, how do we distinguish between innate vs imbued sentience; consider the case of the rock characters in Everything Everywhere All at Once; they are imbued with sentience as they are manifestations of human (or meta-human) characters - do they belong in this category? (let's assume for a moment there is an article about the rocks - which would be highly unlikely .. like most things in the film itself). Regards --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:10, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:List of AA Films distributed Hindi Dubbed films
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: The category name is obviously malformed, but would like to see if there's a landing spot for films by distributer. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac15 02:02, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
RE: "by distributor" - categorisation of films is, in my estimation, rather messy on that front. Films which are only distributed by a studio (even if they are not produced by the studio), seem to be categorized under the subcats of: Category:Films by studio. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a good idea or not, just merely that it seems to be current practice. I looked around, and I don't see a separate "by distributor" tree. - jc37 17:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rename Category:AA Films films dubbed in Hindi. It is a category, not a list. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:09, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not finding any other categories for splitting distributed films by dubbing in other languages. At this point, just having a category for the distributor's films is a first step - further splitting into "Hindi films" and "Hindi-dubbed films" can be a later discussion, if necessary. Noting that the article AA Films already lists them - jc37 22:57, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 02:20, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to Category:AA Films films per Jc37. Categorizing films by their distributor is appropriate and accepted, if there are enough films from that distributor to warrant a category, and it's appropriate and accepted to categorize films for the language that they were originally made in — but it's overcategorization to categorize films for languages that they've been dubbed into after the fact, or to intersect language with distributor. Bearcat (talk) 14:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Support per nom, but just delete Category:Women in early Germanic culture because the articles are already in other subcategories of the target. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:24, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:T-Mobile US branded venue
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.