The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:37, 20 April 2010 [1].


Adrian Boult[edit]

Adrian Boult (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nominator(s): Tim riley (talk) 09:55, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because, following an extensive peer review recently completed, I believe it meets the FAC criteria. The subject was the least publicity-conscious of people, but his life and work are nevertheless well documented. Boult played an important part in British musical life through the majority of the last century. I believe the article covers all the important aspects of his life and work. It is stable, the images are accounted for, and the article is, I hope it will be found, well-referenced and easy to read. Tim riley (talk) 09:55, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • The last two sentences in the lead don't really sum up his life. I don't think the fact that his music has been released on CD is that notable, certainly not enough for a lead section. While on the lead, it speaks only of his career - I'd like to see a little more, even just a passing mention, of his family and background. Right now I don't think the lead accurately sums up the article. My rule of thumb is to mention at least one fact from each section of an article, but that's only a guide I use. It just seems a little bit lacking right now. More to come. Parrot of Doom 19:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Good point: I've expanded as suggested, and the lead is definitely more rounded now.
  • When did Boult go to Oxford? I know its hinted at in the previous quotation from his biographer, but I'd like to know in the article body.
    • Dates added.
  • The chronology of the second paragraph is slightly muddled. We start by mentioning he went to Oxford, then he met someone before he went to Oxford (why is this important?), then we say "By the time he went to Oxford..."
    • Moved earlier meeting with Elgar to the chronologicalally relevant point in the article.
  • What is the Oriana Society?
    • Explanation added
  • "He was president of the University Musical Club in 1910" - when did he become president, and when did this presidency end?
    • Date clarified.

Parrot of Doom 19:56, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Very good points. Shall attend to them and report back to this page soonest. Tim riley (talk) 18:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC) Later: now all addressed. Tim riley (talk) 19:45, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Boult graduated with a pass degree in 1912" - I wasn't clear on what this meant, so I moved some text out of the note into the prose. I hope this is ok. By the way, you might consider formatting text in the notes section by using ((#tag:ref|This is a note|group="nb")) in the body, and in the notes section, ((reflist|group="nb")) (see [[Gunpowder Plot]] for an example). It won't affect my opinion on the article's promotion though.
  • I am attracted by this. I have lately been (most peripherally) involved with a major revamp of the article on Gustav Mahler which splits the notes, à la Gunpowder Plot, into citations and amplifications. I can see that there is a distinct difference between "click here to see more interesting stuff on this point" and just "click here to see why this statement is justified." Shall ponder further on this. Your rewrite of the degree info here is fine, I think. Tim riley (talk) 21:02, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who is Hans Sitt? If he's a musician, just add "musician" before his name.
  • Done
  • I made this change - ""I went to all his [Nikisch's] rehearsals and concerts in the Gewandhaus. …" - is it Nikisch being talked about? I wasn't sure.
    • It was - the brackets are fine.
  • "This style accorded with Boult's opinion that" - I don't think accorded works here, as a verb, as it may imply causation. I could be wrong, however.
    • I don't think I agree with you here, but would gladly look at an alternative phrasing...
      • I changed to "in accord", "accorded" can be taken to mean something else entirely. Parrot of Doom 21:21, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Boult made his professional conducting debut on 27 February 1914" - I'm uncertain of the terminology of conducting, but would "made his début as a professional conductor" not be more suitable?
  • Yes
  • "He was recruited by the War Office as a translator (he spoke good French, German and Italian)" - when was this - before/during/after 1916? Also, is "fluent" a more descriptive word than "good", or would that be over-egging it a bit?
  • "some of which were subsidised by his father, with the aims of giving work to orchestral players and bringing music to a wider audience" - was this his father's aim, or Boult's aim?
  • "In 1918 he gave a series of concerts with the London Symphony Orchestra, which included important recent British works" - the concerts included important works, not the London Symphony Orchestra.
  • "Just before the Armistice, Gustav Holst burst into my office:" - this quote might benefit from being not in the prose, but in a quote box - check out Template:Quote box3. You can see how it works in, for example, Dick Turpin. Your choice though, just a suggestion. Right now it isn't obvious who gave the quote.
  • "Boult ran the classes from 1919 to 1930. In 1921 he received a Doctorate of Music" - are these two facts connected?
More to come, but the more I read the more I like. The corrections to the prose are minor, and its well-written. For a layman like myself I'm not at all struggling with the terminology. Parrot of Doom 19:18, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is full of food for thought - thank you very much. I'll work my way through in the next day or so. At first glance I think all your points may help me tighten the prose up. More soonest. Tim riley (talk) 19:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Parrot of Doom indicates the corrections needed are minor: please continue working with PoD post-FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:06, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, Tim riley could you address the points above on the article's talk page? I can continue there, if you like. I was leaning towards supporting. Parrot of Doom 21:16, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed (the below items have been addressed, according to Hekerui)

The other images look fine. Hekerui (talk) 19:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite sure how to take the image questions forward, and have asked Hekerui for a steer on this. Tim riley (talk) 18:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Will re-do collages if need be after above points are resolved. For the time being is is acceptable to leave them as they are? I uploaded the Beecham original, to which I'll add bibliographical detail. I didn't realise that Commons files were dubious, but I agree that the Weingartner and Strauss files are plainly from their youth and so can be fairly taken to be out of copyright in this century. The Elgar is, I have no doubt at all, pre WWI. Taken at about the turn of the century in his early forties to judge by his hair colour. - Tim riley (talk) 19:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I looked at the images. As is often the case with older Commons images, some of the ones used for the compound images have incomplete and lacking descriptions that make verification difficult.

It was written on my talk page that the image was published at least 1921, which means it is definitely a keep for the Wikipedia project. The question whether it fits in Commons can then be ascertained separately and is of no relevance for this nomination. The image needs to be uploaded to Wikipedia for that withTemplate:PD-US. Hekerui (talk) 11:03, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The National Portrait Gallery says the photographer died 1936, not 1944, clearing that up. Hekerui (talk) 08:18, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Beecham emu 1910.jpg: the image lacks a source (for verification of date and country of origin), but that one could be given by the original uploader.
    • I uploaded the original scan into en.Wikipedia. I don't seem to be able to edit the bibliographical information, but the source was the dust jacket of Lucas, John Thomas Beecham: An Obsession with Music, London, Boydell, 2008, ISBN 9781843834021. - Tim riley (talk) 19:30, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added this information to the file. The edit tab is on the upper right corner in commons, Tim. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:35, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the images are all fine now, no further issues for me. Hekerui (talk) 08:18, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dictionary of National Biography and all other source I have checked agree that it was 22 Feb. in London. His The Times and New York Times obituaries were both published on 24 February 1983, so if he had not died yet, the reports of his death would have been "greatly exaggerated". -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:46, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense :) What's up with AMG? Hekerui (talk) 08:18, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad this has come up. The above is not the only article that gives the wrong details about Boult's date/place of death. I am adding a short note on the article talk page to prevent future confusion on this point. - Tim riley (talk) 08:09, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments First of all, thanks for working on the article. Some questions/suggestions, some are minor language things, some about understanding:

Lead

Perhaps it should be simply stated that he was forced to retire due to age? That's true in any case, no? Hekerui (talk) 09:51, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just meant that being a founder is already stated in the sentence with "he established", no? Hekerui (talk) 09:51, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

First conducting work

BBC Symphony Orchestra

London Philharmonic

Later years

Musicianship

Unless it is sourced in a RS that is a pretty broad (original) analysis - it's better to let the quotes speak for themselves. Hekerui (talk) 13:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recordings

General stuff

Good, you tried and finding something like that from a person dead for so long is difficult, so it'll be hard for anyone to question the FUR of the image. Hekerui (talk) 13:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hekerui (talk) 11:06, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think other input from a majority is forthcoming so I made some changes, I think for the better. I also removed "avowed" from "avowed member of the party X" as it's just a fill word as in "avowed atheist", "avowed xyz". Hekerui (talk) 13:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.