The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:53, 30 January 2010 [1].

Bodiam Castle

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Nominator(s): Nev1 (talk) 11:29, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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Bodiam Castle is one of the most picturesque castles in England, and one of the most popular. Built in the late 14th century, it's not certain that there was every any military action at Bodiam, so the history section is mostly about ownership and what the owners did with the castle. It's not a long article, but in light of what some might think is a quiet history, it's comprehensive. The main source for the article is the National Trust guidebook which cover the main points in the castle's history, and padded out by references from other books. I have searched the indexes of the journal Medieval Archaeology, but they had nothing to add beyond what is already in the article. Hopefully, others will agree that the prose is up to the mark. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to review the article. Nev1 (talk) 11:29, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- Peripitus (Talk) 06:24, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think all those text changes really do that much to improve the article. I might say "display as much as defense" but the original wording expresses the presumably surprising idea that a medieval castle would be built for show. Saying when the castle was opened to the public would be nice, but given the uncertainty of some of the history it could be a very hard thing to track down (when was the cottage built?). "Ruinous" is a synonym of ruined in Webster [2] though not (ahem) Wiktionary [3]. Your proofreading is useful, but I think it shows that the text is in pretty good shape. Wnt (talk) 02:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed, I'd used |publisher= instead of |journal= so the article title wasn't quite right. Nev1 (talk) 17:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sadly, a copy (or tracing) of a copyrighted image falls under the same license as the original. Credit to the creator/uploader for their honesty, but this is not his to license. Dhatfield (talk) 02:42, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The images are thus mostly OK. For the East Sussex outline map, I would suggest you contact the creator, User:Jza84, and ask what the source of the base map was (eg did he draw it himself from mapping data, or was it from a PD source, or from a copyrighted source etc). For the image with the strange date, everything else looks OK, I'm not sure why that date was given. For the plan of the castle, you'll need to get the opinion of someone more experienced in copyright issues than me. (A map published in a book would presumably be copyrighted, tracing and modifying would then seem to be a derivative work, unless there are some other principles involved, e.g. the layout of the building is a fact, which is not copyrightable) Dr pda (talk) 00:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've contacted Jza84 to ask about the map. The image with the funny date had the meta data with when it was generated, so I've changed it to that. As for the plan, I am not sure. The original image was used with a fair use rationale; who would you recommend consulting for more information? The layout of the walls are factual, however the labelling is at times speculative. Nev1 (talk) 21:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest checking with people like User:Jappalang, User:Elcobbola or User:Awadewit for the plan. Also, I've seen Jza84's reply on his talk page; if you or he add to the East Sussex map something like what he did for the Manchester map, that would satisfy me. I'm also fine with changing that funny date to the one in the image metadata. Dr pda (talk) 22:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've just expanded the description of the map and will now go and ask someone about the plan. Nev1 (talk) 22:10, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I couldn't get passed the first paragraph regarding criterion 1a.

I don't intend to block with an oppose since I am not on often enough, but with four complaints in the first paragraph of the most important part of the article, I believe this deserves a thorough copyedit. Dhatfield (talk) 02:42, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Addressing your points in order:
  1. The grid reference hardly breaks the flow because it is at the end of a sentence, but I have moved it to the infobox.
  2. I'm not seeing the problem to be honest; if a landscape is watery, there's lots of water. "Watery landscape" is a phrase used in studies of the castle, so to suggest that it does not fit in with criterion 1a (good prose) is surprising.
  3. As explained earlier in this FAC, the phrasing is deliberated. There is a popular image in the public eye that castles were exclusively military institutions, and it is often a surprise to learn that they were social symbols. We cannot know if Bodiam was meant for display as much as defence because we cannot read minds (Johnson spends quite a long time talking about this in his book Behind the Castle Gate.
  4. Why?
I encourage you to read the rest of the article; any valid points will be addressed. Nev1 (talk) 20:32, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By 1378, Edward Dalyngrigge owned the manor of Bodiam by virtue of marrying into a land-owning family - this section just sorta jumps into it. The first sentence should have a word or two explaining who Dalyngrigge was -a local nobleman/nouveau riche?
I've added a sentence] on who Dalyngrigge was. Nev1 (talk) 16:52, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
... many castles were slighted.. "slighted"? Interesting use of the verb.....?
Slighting is a technoical term which means to render a fortification undefendable. It's explained in the previous sentece (sort of) and there's a wikilink: "...when Bodiam Castle was dismantled (slighted)..." I know nothing of the origin of the word, but suspect it may be linked with the meaning to insult or be insulted, but that's another article... Nev1 (talk) 16:52, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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