The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 10:01, 28 July 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Garden Warbler[edit]

Garden Warbler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:20, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is the Blackcap's plain cousin, noted for, well, its lack of distinguishing features. There is so much overlap in the literature on these two bird species, it seemed logical to follow the Blackcap's FAC with this one. There is lots of research material, so let me know if you think I've omitted something important. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:20, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Aa77zz

Rather than photographs of figs, woodland, a cuckoo and Messiaen it would be better to have pictures of chicks, eggs, a nest or the bird in flight. Aa77zz (talk) 10:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely agree, but this is what is on Commons. Having said that, even if there is a good choice, I think it's useful to have habitat images at least, rather just pictures of the bird. Here, it's either figs and Messiaen or nothing Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are a couple of photos used in the article on German Wiki but unfortunately the quality is low and probably not adequate for this article.
  • It's a UK study, I've made that clear now. I suspect, but cannot verify, that losses will be higher elsewhere, particularly in warmer areas, since the Cuckoo is declining in the UK. The Garden Warbler's range in completely within the range of the Cuckoo in Europe. In parts of Asia, the very similar Oriental Cuckoo may replace its relative Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's difficult to quantify this. It remains a host, unlike Blackcap, so it's not perfect at discriminating, but the Cuckoo eggs have to look convincingly like those of the warbler (unlike the Dunnock, a recent host, which will accept anything egg-like) Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see what you mean, but I'm not sure what the way forward is. The image, if it stays, has to have the caption to make sense, and I don't know which other occurrence is most expendable. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " It is second only to the Eurasian Reed Warbler in terms of the number of parasitised nests."; the 3% figure, from what I can tell, is for deaths owing to brood parasitism. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:51, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amounts to the same thing, the Cuckoo chick pushes the warbler's eggs or chicks out of the nest, so they always perish Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • My point was that repetition may be worthy simply because it is one of the most commonly parasited species (even if the death rate is at 3%) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:37, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support My concerns here and on the Talk page have been addressed. Another excellent article from Jim. Aa77zz (talk) 07:57, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by Crisco 1492

  • Thanks for image review. For various reasons I don't like the other Commons images for figs or Messiaen, so just removed Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:51, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed comments from Crisco 1492 moved to talk

Comment - added author, source and permission for File:Ficus carica0.jpg. Should be OK to re-add, if you want it as illustration. GermanJoe (talk) 14:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

but the Booted Warbler is similar in colour to the Garden Warbler, although it is smaller, more delicately built and has a flesh-coloured bill. - I am not sure we need the bit I've bolded - reads a tad repetitively but I am not sure the meaning is conserved without it...?

Other than that, tentative support (moral or otherwise) as WP birds member. Looks pretty good on prose and comprehensiveness. Sources not spotchecked. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:58, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

After a quick look, I would think that the article needs some more polishing to make it easier to read. Snowman (talk) 13:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Now ...just in central Europe, with many additional species being consumed in the Mediterranean region... Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:02, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that A and B are true doesn't mean that C is true unless the species is habitually double-brooded. Why do you think Shirihae is wrong, his Sylvia monograph is usually accepted as authoritative? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I could be completely mistaken, but having only one brood per year surprises me, so I requested double checking. Snowman (talk) 14:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Baker barely mentions breeding, Simms gives much detail, but doesn't mention double broods, I assume because it's unusual for this genus. Found another explicit reference, added Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • But the population is probably not stable. The IUCN reference says that "Despite the fact that the population trend appears to be decreasing, ..." Snowman (talk) 13:31, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • changed to fairly stable, the decline in Europe is small, Scandinavia is increasing, we don't know about Asia, nothing suggesting a large decline. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would have thought that it was self-evident that an unsuccessful nest was one from which no young successfully fledged. Do I really need to spell that out? Spelt out. I don't understand the rest of your query, the next sentence explicitly refers to failures, and the rest of the paragraph refers to survival rates of adults and first-year birds, which must by definition have come from successful nests Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If an nest had five eggs and only three chicks fledged would that be a successful nest or an unsuccessful nest? I would really like to know if the adults would make a second nest, if the first nest failed to produce any chicks. If only 50% of the population had fledged young in a breeding season, then to me this would seem to be quite a low proportion for a short lived bird. Perhaps, a nest is successful if it is structurally successful and does not fall onto the ground of fall apart. Perhaps, the parent birds are successful if they raise a brood. Snowman (talk) 13:31, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't see any basis for a nicely constructed but barren nest being considered successful, from that viewpoint the unused cock's nests are successful. I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility of renesting if the first nest failed, but I can't find any evidence for this. Any nest that produces fledged young is a success. Three out of five would be pretty good for a passerine. I found a few figures for productivity young/nest, and all were above the replacement figure of 2/nest. I didn't quote a productivity because there is no overall average that can be calculated Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The book talks about "breeding success" on page 34. This article defines a breeding success as a pair that fledge at least one chick from a clutch. I have removed "successful nest" from the article and I note that there was no definition of what a successful nest is in the article. Snowman (talk) 23:16, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That common sense definition seems to be exactly what I was saying, but your edit clarifies. Incidentally, the Eurasian Blackcap, on which I have masses of information, is also normally single-brooded, so it may be characteristic of the genus. No mention of renesting by failed pairs there either, so if it happens it's not being documented. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:05, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have now found corroborating information about the single brood of the Garden Warbler, but the Eurasian Blackcap regularly has two broods on Cape Verde, where the climate is favourable (see page 34 of the linked book). Snowman (talk) 09:20, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've mentioned in the article that it is sometimes double-brooded in warmer areas Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:08, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good idea, I'll do later.
Thanks for further comments, all actionable comments addressed I think Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many of my points have been actioned above. It seems likely to me that the article contains more actionable issues. I am not able to spend a lot of time editing, so I would recommend that more reviewers and preferably specialised copy-editors have a look at the article prior to a decision is made on FA status. Snowman (talk) 23:21, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have found a little time to read the article up to the "Distribution and habitat" section this morning and I am still finding issues, so I think that there are likely to be more issues in the rest of the article. I would guess that a little more copy-editing is needed prior to FA status being awarded. Snowman (talk) 10:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am much happier with the article following Yzx's review and amendments following my comments. I think that the only issues which need clarification are about the birds organ weight changes during body building phases (including prior to migration and during stop overs) and when migrating including when migrating across the Sahara dessert. Snowman (talk) 14:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Provisional impression 2. Support FA Status. I have tried to be objective, but I may have a conflict of interest, because I edit bird pages. The article may contain minor MoS and copy-editing problems, but I am not aware of any major omissions and think the article has reached FA status. Snowman (talk) 16:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've adjusted the map, but it's usually the case that ranges are approximate (as it says in the caption). At the edges of the distribution breeding may be intermittent or at low density, making it difficult to choose a definitive line. In the east, surveys are infrequent and coarse-grained, the map could be many miles out in Asia, we have no way of knowing Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:05, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • My Chambers has lower case, I can't see any logic in capitalising "sub-", it's not even a noun (perhaps it's US?). I hadn't noticed the change, but I'll lc it unless you strongly object Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:08, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think fenland here is a bit misleading, the area of Lincs/Norfolk you refer to hasn't been wetland for centuries, despite the name. It's agricultural land largely without trees or hedges, so there is little suitable habitat (often referred to as "agridesert" since monoculture, chemicals and lack of habitat mean that there is little other wildlife either) Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:08, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've added the dates of arrival and departure to the breeding section. I'm not sure whether this helps resolve your query, since much of the post-breeding period will be spent fattening up for the long migration to Africa. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that helps, because it sounds like they only spend about 4 months (or a bit longer) in the "summer" ranges. I expect that the chicks will need to be in top condition and strong for the migration. Snowman (talk) 19:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, sub-Saharan winterers have to cross the Med as well as the desert, hence the increase in weight to give them the fuel to fly straight over these obstacles. Four months is actually quite leisurely, Common Swift arrives in the UK in May, one brood, mainly gone by mid-August Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:53, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would have thought most people would know what colour steel was, but changed to bluish-grey Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to paler grey Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't see how that sentence can be taken as referring to anything other than plumage, but reordered to make even clearer Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that I misread the original and it was correct at it was, but I shall have a look at it again and try to think why I misread it; nevertheless, it looks better now. Snowman (talk) 17:22, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • On average, yes. I would have given figures if there had been significant differences. Most European warblers have virtually no differences in size or appearance, although the Sylvia genus often has plumage diferences, including the Blackcap but not this species. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 18:16, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have included the information about size as a known fact. Snowman (talk) 21:51, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not a fan of this when there are a lot of ssp, but only two here, so done Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:52, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you want some OR, the summer days are very long in Finland, so the young can be stuffed with insects virtually around the clock, so feeding wouldn't be a problem. I'm not sure what action you are asking me to take. The statement is properly referenced, so I'm reluctant to remove it just because you don't find it convincing. Obviously I'll do so if you don't accept the source Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does it mean that second broods more common in the north or that second broods also occur in the north despite the short summer there and in fewer numbers in the north. The article does not mention long days. Snowman (talk) 16:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It just said "even in the north", presumably because it would be less expected there. I've removed that bit now, since it's disputed, and adding bits about the shortness of the summer and length of the day is making an originally factual statement look increasingly OR. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:46, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems odd to removed a referenced fact because there isn't sufficient detail. Now the fact doesn't exist in the article at all. I don't know of any accessible source which expands on this. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have removed it (probably temporarily), because the high profile of mass of the intestine seemed to have the wrong emphasis. Also, " intestines expanding" could refer to them being filled with food. I will attempt to look for references when I have got some to find out if skeletal muscles also increase in weight and try to write a more coherent account, if this can be gleaned from references. At the present time the article says that the birds put on weight and increase adipose tissue. I do not know why the article previously only included mass of the intestine and hinted at fat stores without mentioning skeletal muscle mass as well. Snowman (talk) 16:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately I do not have access to the full papers of the abstracts that I have accessed, so I will not be able to do a re-write of parts of the article; nevertheless, what I have gleaned seems to indicate that organ weight and adipose tissue weight changes are complicated and dedicated section or paragraph to explain the topic could be added. It is interesting to wonder how much detail is needed for FA. When I first heard about non-carbohydrate sources for energy (gluconeogenesus) during bird migration a few years ago, I thought that it was fascinating and interesting from a biochemical point of view and that such rapid organ weight changes were a remarkable adaptation. I would think that a good summary is needed for the article or perhaps the very brief account in the article on the body building phase is enough as is it. I would discourage a sketchy approach using an emphasis on the weight of the intestines. I recall commenting on this topic on a previous FA, but I do not recall which bird it was nor what the consensus was reached then. Any comments? Snowman (talk) 14:25, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've expanded a little using your new source. I would think the balance is about right for this article, which doesn't need to go into great detail on body changes, interesting though they may be Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that you have got the balance about right. Snowman (talk) 16:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've moved the ref, since it refers to the return migration. I have JSTOR access, would you like to see the full text? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, my error, I'm confusing the two biebach papers, it's the other one I can access, I could email you the link to my copy. I'll go back and sort out the two refs Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:45, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Yzx

  • Only bird species are capitalised, no other animal or plant project has a consistent policy. In bird facs we normally lower case all other species. Since it's done consistently, it's accepted practice even in FAs like Titchwell Marsh with all sorts of life forms Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:14, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I was under the impression that the MoS favored consistency within an article. That's what it seems to say in Capital_letters#Animals.2C_plants.2C_and_other_organisms. -- Yzx (talk) 06:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, capped per your suggestion now Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the breeding areas you know what you expect to see (in the UK, the breeding birds are all borin) and a different bird might stand out. In Africa, a Garden Warbler could be either ssp, and without capturing it it's difficult to judge the subtle differences in an individual bird Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:14, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It may be better to say that the subspecies are hard to distinguish visually where they co-occur. -- Yzx (talk) 06:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
amended as suggested Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The summers are shorter in the north, so second broods might be less expected, clarified now Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:14, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article looks comprehensive overall. -- Yzx (talk) 05:41, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article looks good. Changing to support. -- Yzx (talk) 07:27, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks, Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:21, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment - I have decided that any remaining issues can be resolved post FAC and will promote this candidate in a few minutes. Graham Colm (talk) 20:06, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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