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Oppose While this article has much to recommend it, the repeated use of David Irving as a reference is a show stopper for FA status; he's widely discredited, and not a reliable source about anything. Note that the book you've cited is self published as commercial publishers won't touch him. Nick-D (talk) 12:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed. - Dank (push to talk) 12:22, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I considered this question carefully when using Irving's book. The current edition of the book is self-published, but the original edition was published by Little & Brown in 1965 and was subsequently republished by reputable publishers. It is widely cited by other writers, [2] including very recent authors such as Zaloga. Irving has become infamous for writing revisionist works but John Arquilla comments that the book pre-dates Irving's "drift off into Holocaust denial", while one of those personally involved with the British campaign against the V-weapons sites, Reginald Victor Jones, has called it "a fine job".[3] I've not found any references that question the factual accuracy of the book; in "Creating a Memory of the German Rocket Program for the Cold War", Michael J. Neufeld says: "Irving, who was already noticeably pro-German but not yet infamous as a Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier [my italics], provided the most complete account on both Allied and German sides of the V-weapons campaign in the last two years of the war, but it is noteworthy that, although he did much more original research than the others, he minimised the Mittelwerk/Nordhausen story about which he certainly knew more."[4] I've not used Irving as a source for anything to do with Mittelwerk/Nordhausen (which doesn't come into this article anyway). Note that Neufeld only questions the book's completeness, not its accuracy, but is nonetheless happy to call it "the most complete account" of the V-weapons. Irving's book is used solely as a source for translated quotes from a number of original German documents rather than historical judgements. In Telling Lies About Hitler: The Holocaust, History and the David Irving Trial, Richard J. Evans mentions the book but gives no indication of any controversy about it.[5] The reviews at the time of publication were highly favourable; Duncan Sandys, who headed the British committee that led the fight against the V-weapons, wrote in the London Evening Standard that it was an "authoritative account" (and quite honestly he was better placed to give that judgement than anyone else given his depth of personal knowledge). I certainly agree that Irving's later works, particularly his revisionist histories, are unreliable but there is no indication that this particular work or these particular quotes are unreliable. Not everything he wrote was revisionist. I also don't think it's realistic to exclude this source when many other professional works of recent vintage - including those used in the article - have cited it. When the book is still widely used by current historians, well reviewed, and apparently uncontroversial, I could see no good reason to exclude it as a source. Prioryman (talk) 16:37, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- As part of his investigation into Irving's work, Richard Evans demonstrated that Irving was systematically misrepresenting sources in order to further his political views as early as his 1962 work on the bombing of Dresden (please see the online version of his expert report here), so it's not correct to say that he was once a good historian, but became unreliable. In the paragraph you note, Evans actually states that "despite their somewhat specialised titles, these books in many cases aroused widespread controversy". In his book Evans argues that the only reason Irving was once considered credible by non-specialists is that few reviewers and historians followed up on the citations he provided (which often didn't support his claims, or were so vague as to be useless). As such, I'm afraid that I can't support an FA nomination for an article which uses Irving as a source. Nick-D (talk) 08:32, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I suggest that you look at Evans a bit more closely. He says that Irving's books in many cases aroused controversy - not that they all did. He mentions The Mare's Nest in passing but says nothing substantive about the book other than mentioning it. He gives no indication whatsoever that it has ever been controversial or that its contents have ever been disputed. Can you provide me with a source that indicates any controversy or dispute over the book's accuracy? Prioryman (talk) 19:28, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Prioryman, I've actually read it cover to cover twice :) Evans' basic argument is that all of Irving's work is unreliable as a result of the systematic misrepresentation of sources which began in his first book. Please replace this with references to other works. Nick-D (talk) 09:39, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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