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Ohio Stadium

Result: Delist. Multiple issues where the article does not meet the criteria. Geometry guy 20:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

this article is not GA material. The reviewer left 6 things to improve and I found another. This being GA lowers the standards for GA. The reasons are: The flow of the article is a little awkward in places, The article isn't proportional in its coverage, Very little is included about the physical characteristics of the facility , Are there any major traditions held in the stadium, The article has wikilinked names like Beano Cook and Mel Kiper without spelling out why they're important to the article, An inflation-adjusted construction cost would be useful, and the ref formatting is highly inconsistent--the ref situation alone warrants delisting. Sumoeagle179 20:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

James Strang

Result: Keep. Although there are a couple of minor issues were raised, these are not enough to delist the article, and in any case, it is clear that contributing editors have been fixing them. Geometry guy 20:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article quick passed GA and yet it does not meet GA standards. For example, the lead is brief - Wikipedia:Lead section- and the article footnotes use 'ibid' - Wikipedia:Footnotes#Citing a footnote more than once - extensively. Thus it fails on the basis of GA guidelines 1(b) and 2(a) Wassupwestcoast 12:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know you read the article. I don't doubt that at all. But there are enough problems that the article should have been put on GA Hold while the contributing editors fixed the problems. The lead should be expanded. And ibid is a real problem. Note the style guideline says:Please do not use "ibid" or other footnote shorthands. The reason is simple: the use of ibid quickly results in broken citations that are really hard to repair. For example, an editor inserting a sentence between two ibids completely changes the references all the way down. Which source an ibid is actually referencing to can become impossible to decipher. Wikipedia has a number of acceptable citation methods that are robust: for example, Harvard referecing. Please read Wikipedia:Citing sources, Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Verifiability as these represent Wikipedia policy and guidelines (which it does change). Without these changes, I think this article should fail GA. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 19:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You do make some very good points about the "ibid" issue, and I have to agree with you on that one. Personally, I felt the article was good enough to be a GA at this point, but if you feel it should be delisted to work on those kinks, that's okay. Thanks for the advice and friendly attitude. Cheers to you too! Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 00:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Comment. The main contributing editor has been revising the article quite a bit and has both expanded the lead and removed the 'ibid's. My objections have been removed. Cheers!Wassupwestcoast 13:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Theobromine

Result: Delist. Convincing arguments, especially by Gosgood, that this does not meet the criteria at present. Geometry guy 21:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article has problems as noted in its peer review last week. The article is not well organized, consisting more of a list of facts rather than a smooth flow of prose, and many sections seem too short. Some pieces of information are repeated several times in different places, contributing to reader confusion. The article should follow wikipedia's medical manual of style for drug-related articles, and topics such as the drug's metabolism and biosynthesis are not covered. Terminology such as "lesser homologue" are not explained, and more than one reviewer has asked for clarification. No significant changes to the article have been made since it was listed for peer review. Formatting of the article needs improvement as well. Jeff Dahl 05:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I was the person who passed this article at GA (my first review). I notice that at the peer review you object to the use of explanations in parentheses for terms such as vasodilator. I insisted on these being inserted during the GAC. The medical manual of style suggests this very step.--Peter cohen 15:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If this was your first review, you might want to have reviewed an article you didn't contribute to. I know you didn't do any heavy work on it and were only fixing things by being bold (Thanks!), but it is probably better to have a fresh set of eyes for the review. Jeff Dahl 22:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My contributions took place after I had reviewed it and placed it on hold as part of the process of making it reach my requirements for passing it.--Peter cohen 14:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that jargon should be explained, but I don't agree that technical terms should be "dumbed down." The problem is that "blood vessel widener" is really not quite accurate, precise, or professional. It would be like describing Viagra as "making your penis larger" which is sort of true, but is not precise. A vasodilator is a drug that makes the blood vessels relax, lowering blood pressure. I agree that 'vasodilator' needs explanation, but shouldn't mis-represent the facts. Another problem is that there is a wikilink to diuretic, but with the vague, piped phrase "aid in urinating". This wrongly implies that a diuretic is somehow used for incontinence, or to help people go to the bathroom, like finasteride. A diuretic simply increases the body's production of urine. Let's stick to the facts and write something like: "Theobromine acts on such and such a receptor to increase the body's production of urine, making it a useful diuretic." This would be much more accurate and precise. Good articles shouldn't misrepresent or "dumb-down" the facts, and this article has problems with this in more than a few places, where some things are dumbed down and other terms, like "lesser homologe," are left unexplained. I still don't understand what this term us supposed to mean. Jeff Dahl 22:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you might want to do something about Vasodilator whose first sentence explains the term as something that widens the blood vessels. No doubt the main author if the article had found the term "lesser homologue" in one of his/her sources.--Peter cohen 14:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed this, added a ref, and nominated for pharmacology collaboration of the week. I was surprised to see such an important topic have so little material and no refs! Jeff Dahl 22:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as a GA. I don't see any obvious variance from the GA standards as spelled out in WP:WIAGA. While the writing is not as "briliant" as may be required as an FA, there are no obvious grammar or spelling or organization issues, so it seems well written. It is well referenced, which is the most common objection to GAs, and again while not of the "comprehensive" as commonly required of FAs, it does seem to meet GA requirements of being "broad"; that is touching on all of the major topics a casual reader may expect to see. While detailed biosynthesis and metabolic information are not covered in exhastive detail, there IS information on metabolism (pharmacology section and effects section) and om biological sources. I would never support this article for an FA, but it seems to be easily GA standard.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 17:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The problem I see is mainly organization. What difference is there between Effects and Theraputic uses, at least in this article? Under Theraputic uses, we get the sentence: "Theobromine has also been used in birth defect experiments involving mice and rabbits. A decreased fetal weight was noted in rabbits following forced feeding, but not after other administration of theobromine. Birth defects were not seen in rats." This is not a theraputic use, which implies it is being used as a treatment for patients. Under Effects, there is a lot of material that should belong under Theraputic uses. Under Sources we get poorly integrated metabolism information of caffeine: "In the human liver, caffeine is metabolised by enzymes into 10% theobromine, 4% theophylline, and 80% paraxanthine." The reason I suggest delisting is because there are quite a few places that are confusing, poorly written, and no one has responded to peer review comments which would have corrected the problems. Jeff Dahl 22:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I don't think its unusual to need to reorganise GA articles before going for FA. Mother Teresa is an example of an article that has been agreed to be GA by people including myself, but where I think extensive reorganisation of material is needed for the highest grades of assessment. Theobromine is similar in needing some thought on how it is best structured before going goign for A or FA. The more specific issues can be corrected by the reviewers.--Peter cohen 16:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This article certainly needs a lot of work, but the only deviation from the GA criteria that I can see is that the lead does not summarize the article. Concerning technical vs imprecise terms, one possibility is to use an informal term, but wikilink a more precise one. Geometry guy 17:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. More comments are needed here. I was tempted to archive as no consensus, but the article now has a clean-up tag. Do others agree that the lead does not summarise the article? Geometry guy 20:15, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delist struck thru prior vote. The article is OJ, but I concur with Geometry Guy on this; the lead does NOT summarize the article. There are several sections (uses and effects sections) that are not even covered by the lead. If this were fixed, I would change my vote back, but given the length of time this has been here, it looks easily delistable now. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delist. That the lead paragraph does not furnish a summary of the article as a whole is endemic of the overall bullet-point style of writing; the lead consists of the first few of many bullet points, rather than a summary of the lines of discussion which the body of the article contains. Compare the prose of this article with the discourse style of Vitamin C or Metformin, which is similar in size and scope to this article. I think the editors have done a credible job of pulling together a list of facts about theobromine, carefully referenced, some highly technical, others of popular interest, and are now faced with the task(s) of actually organizing the lines of discussion; this seems to me to be the draft of the good article, but not the good article yet. Gosgood 21:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep. The lead could certainly be better but isn't terrible. The article certainly isn't stellar compared to most of its GA-class kindred. However, it marginally meet all criteria. Majoreditor 04:15, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delist. The language is imprecise and the prose needs quite a bit of work. A few examples: "... theobromine is helpful in treating asthma since it relaxes the smooth muscles ...", "The loosening of the muscles in the bronchus ...", "While serotonin has a pleasurable effect ...", "... pleasure induced by the hypothalamus as an effect of chocolate's sweet and fatty nature". I also agree with the comment made by Gosgood; this is the draft of a GA artricle, not the real McCoy. --Malleus Fatuarum 02:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Koenigsegg CCX

Result: Delist. While there was some interesting discussion over how best to characterize and address the weaknesses in this article, the overwhelming viewpoint was that work is needed before this meets the criteria. Such work has not been forthcoming since it was listed nearly 2 months ago. Geometry guy 21:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Content issues primiarily PrinceGloria 09:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am bringing this up for review mainly to gather others' opinions. I am really happy to see every automotive article getting promoted to GA, but at the same time, having been involved with the GA process rather intensely earlier in my Wikipedia career, I am also concerned about standards. The major issue I have with this article is one that is slipping throught the cracks of the WIAGA, but nonetheless very important IMHO - I believe the article's content is not appropriate for an encyclopedic article on the subject. If you look at the article, for the most part it consists of a description of technical details of the car, which, even being interested in automobiles above all else, I find hard to digest and relate to. I believe a casual reader might find it very hard to digest through it and get any meaningful message. The other part is a collection of statements made by reviewers, chosen on a purely arbitrary basis (not that I have issues with the choice - you just cannot choose them in an objective manner). This might be hearwarming to enthusiasts, but IMHO isn't really encyclopedic due to its subjective nature.

A secondary issue I have with the article is the quality of prose, which I find questionable at times. For example:

The CCX is also available as the CCXR, which is the same car except that the engine is tuned to run on biofuel.

For me, it is a rather clumsy way of putting it. There are also spelling problems, like "existance" at the beginning of the second paragraph.

I've sad bad things, now for the good things - the article is very rife with references, which is still a rarity among Wikipedia article, and at first sight it appears that those were done correctly. For me, this would be a perfect article for a car enthusiasts' Wiki (I don't know if there is a reliable one), but unfortunately it fails on being encyclopedic. I see a lot of effort put into the article, and I guess I'd have to agree that a truly encyclopedic article on the subject would be much more boring and less satisfactory for the car's enthusiasts than this one is. But, I still believe that Wikipedia's encyclopedic nature should take precedence... PrinceGloria 09:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PS. Two formal issues - in the infobox, the standard is not to include information on whether a transmission is "optional" or not. Secondly, the CCXR is listed as "successor", while it is at the same time described in the article as a version of the same car.

Weak Keep - Yes the writing is poor at times, and yes it is a little overly technical, but what else would you expect in a car article? Unless the car is culturally significant or had a recall or something disastrous, what else is there? I don't think it's a crime to go into too much detail. Drewcifer 22:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not really - the whole article is legitimate in that the subject IS encyclopedic, there's no doubt about it. Besides, the least encyclopedic part got promptly removed. I just believe this shouldn't be a GA, because it is not quite a good example of an article in this area. PrinceGloria 09:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The topic of this article is suitable for such a specialized encyclopedia; and
  2. The current content of this article would be suitable for such a specialized encyclopedia.
I have the impression from PrinceGloria's comments that it is 2 that is in doubt, not 1, but I hope this perspective brings the question into sharper focus. Geometry guy 20:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest restoring a short version of the critical reception section, which does not revolve around Top Gear, but gives equal weight to several independent reviews. The "12 cars sold this year" is interesting and reliably sourced information, so I would include it. Sorry for the mistake with Nardo: I struck out those remarks. Geometry guy 10:54, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How do you decide which reviews are "worth" inclusion and which not? As I said, such "reception" sections are extremely unencyclopedic in their inherent POVness and, I believe, totally redundant in case of cars. PrinceGloria 11:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reception sections have to be strongly sourced so that editors report on what others' non-neutral POVs are, but in a neutral POV way. Many articles on a consumer product do include this (movies and video games require such sections). I don't see why not for cars: specs from the car maker are one thing, but post-market evaluation is almost always a good secondary source to build on the car. However, it can be difficult to know what to source, since anyone can make a blog and thus publish a review this way or that. To me, you need to choose sources that someone with reasonable knowledge of that field would be considered an authority. Even though I'm not an expert, I would say that magazines like Car & Driver or Consumer Reports would be respected critical sources to pull reviews from -- though in this specific case of the CCX, I very much doubt these will have them. Hopefully that gives you an idea of where to look for such. --MASEM 12:19, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is your POV. I say all is rubbish but "Auto Motor und Sport" and "Quattroruote". And? PrinceGloria 12:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I see no reason to distinguish between cars and films in this respect. NPOV has very little to do with the selection of the sources per se: in this respect, the point of view which matters is the reader's point of view, and as long as all sources are attributed, the reader can decide which source to trust. It is only POV to select particular reviews if the selection does not reflect the diversity of opinion, i.e., NPOV is about balance of content, not choice of sources. Geometry guy 13:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Selecting reviews is inherently POV - it is YOUR POV that you reflect the "diversity of opinion". I have nothing against anybody, we just have to face it - sometimes we just are POV, no matter how we try not to, because we are all different. This is why we avoid situations when we are POV. I don't think discussing reviews is necessary in an article about a car - it could be argued that a movie represents some artistic value it is hard to appraise just by box office numbers, but I believe it would be a stretch in case of cars. There are articles about many other items that are reviewed and appraised, perhaps in a less prominent way, but they somehow do without that. We have to accept that encyclopedic articles on cars are far less involving and interesting for enthusiasts than magazine articles and such. PrinceGloria 13:34, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Eh? Articles are developed by consensus, not by one editor. If you disagree with the choice of sources for critical commentary on the car, add and/or remove reviews until consensus is reached. That is how Wikipedia achieves NPOV when individual editors have opinions, not by throwing up its hands. Geometry guy 16:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. Wikipedia achieves NPOV by avoiding POV content. Consensus can be used to determine what is and what is not POV (one user's opinion is likely to be fallible), but not to create OR or legitimize POV. Adding POVs does not create NPOV. I mean - we can establish whether a car was a sedan or liftback by consensus on appropriate sources to base the notion in the article on. But we cannot possibly determine the inclusion of which reviews constitutes a valid and "balanced" representation of POVs. Regardless, I find this kind of "information" unnecessary and slightly irrelevant anyway. People can read the mags themselves if they want reviews, you come to an encyclopedia for factual information. PrinceGloria 17:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Even though this is a complete digression, I'm enjoying this exchange! All articles are allowed to contain point of view, as long as points of view are attributed to a source, and different views are fairly represented. The issue you are raising is "who decides what is fair representation?" The answer: consensus. It is an imperfect system, but that is all we have got. Imagine writing an article like Evolution or Homeopathy without including points of view. Also, we don't exclude material here because it is unnecessary. After all, if I want to know about this car, all you need to provide me with is the list of sources: delete the rest of the article, I say, and just leave the references section. Geometry guy 19:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am happy to hear (read?) that you are enjoying it. To cut my reply short - this car is not remotely as prominently controversial as homeopathy, so I do not see the reason to report on somebody else's POV in a POV way. To give it a broader perspective, the press surely has some nice and less nice things to say about certain soap opera actors etc. but we do not report on that, do we? Encyclopedia is also about content filtration - not to exclude information, but to include only such that would represent certain qualities (pardon my poor grammar, SVP) PrinceGloria 21:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think including comments based on the merits/shortcomings of the car are appropriate to include. For example if a car has been criticised for being underpowered or having poor brakes shouldn't that appear in the article? So long as the statements about the car are specific to a feature of the car (ie pointing something out) and sourced I think they are valid for inclusion. James086Talk | Email 09:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree: if a car has poor brakes, then that is encyclopedic information, but it must be sourced. I like PGs point about soap opera actors (even though WP:BLP covers this) and content filtration, though: I think this takes the discussion in the right direction. In other words, in my view, this is not primarily a WP:NPOV issue, but a WP:NOT issue. There needs to be an encyclopedic reason to include information from reviews, but I think there often is, and James' examples are good ones. See also WP:Criticism. Geometry guy 12:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin

Result: Archived as an inappopriate forum for this discussion. The article is NOT currently a GA, and was last reviewed for GA status over a year ago. GAR has nothing to add to this discussion. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)
(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

I have seen A-class articles which are weaker than this one. An A-class article, according to the guidelines, is supposed to [be], "Very useful to readers. A fairly complete treatment of the subject. A non-expert in the subject matter would typically find nothing wanting. May miss a few relevant points." As a non-expert in the subject, I find this article fully meets that criterion, and more. Thanks for your time. Setanta 02:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...Do you disagree with the GA reviewer's review, or some A-class wikiproject review? This page isn't for determining A-class status, that'd be up to the relevant Wikiproject or Wikiprojects. Homestarmy 02:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delist I make no comment on this article's A-class status, but it fails WP:WIAGA per lack of citations in many sections. The referencing is quite sketchy. Several sections lack any referencing at all, while others look good. Scratch that. Not on the GA list at all. This should be archived soon. I may get to it. This is NOT A-class review, it is GA review, and since the nominator is asking for a delist, and it isn't even on the list, well... --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Singapore Stone

Result: Article renominated, with a link provided to these comments. Geometry guy 20:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article failed a GAR on the sole ground that it had a "weasel words" tag on it. The tag had been placed by SriMesh on the basis of a semi-automated peer review. I highlighted to him that a previous semi-automated peer review had already been carried out, and that the article had been revised to take into consideration the suggestions made there. As a result, SriMesh removed the "weasel words" tag. Jacklee 21:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One Night Stand (2006)

Result. There was no consensus here to overturn the fail. Instead there was some endorsement (albeit with the suggestion that a full review may have been more appropriate than a quick fail). Discussion here has provided a fuller review. Hence the article remains delisted. Geometry guy 12:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sandstein gave an inappropriate reason for why the article was speedy failed. Several users have stated both on the article talkpage and here was unfair. Given the problems that we at WP:PW have with sourcing, and what is considered reliable and not reliable, I am asking for a re-review of this article to get a wider opinion on whether Sandstein's decision is justified, or whether the article should be listed as GA. Thanks, Davnel03 14:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I don't know what the phrasing would be for Weak Not Endorsing Failure but that would be my vote (for now). I commented on both the talk page for WP:GAN and the article's talk page, so my comments can be read there but, to grossly oversummarize, I think that quickfailing was a little excessive and a misreading of the WP:RS policy, but I am open to being proven wrong. If it's true, at least one or two more current nominees will have to be failed, and one or two previously passed ones will have to be delisted. Having said all that, I haven't gone over the article properly, and I'm not sure if there are other aspects about it that would fail or put it on hold. I do think, however, that it deserves a proper and full review. Cheers, CP 15:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Please see types of sources. The WWE site qualifies as a primary source as it is "people very close to the situation being written about." This is not say that primary sources can't be used, but the article should be supported more by secondary sources. Understandable, WWE wrestling is not something that is reported in your average newspaper and secondary sources are going to be a problem. This brings up the issue of notability: is this event sufficiently notable (as defined by Wikipedia, not by fans) to really be its own article? (I'm not trying to call for its deletion, I'm trying to help explain what needs to be done to help it). If you can find information about ticket sales, or number of viewers, or anything else "meta" about the event, and consider not focusing so much on the wrestling aspect, but that it was a pay-per-view event and thus has possible notability through ratings. An extreme measure is that these WWE event articles may not be appropriate for WP and should be moved to a different Wikia, but a summary page of WWE events would still be quite valid -- however, I don't think you need to go that direction just yet. --MASEM 15:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try and find extra sources to do with the "meta" as you put it about the event. Deletion isn't a viable option, see here. We have had this discussion about possible deletion over at WP:PW see here. Davnel03 15:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I'm not trying to call for deletion, but one issue it looks like is that most of the people that responded to that deletion call were editors involved in the WWE project. It's preaching to the choir. Remember that notability on WP is not the same as the more common definition of notability (typically defined by "fame" or "importance"); what is important to WWE fans may not be important to the whole world, which is why there's the secondary sources requirement. --MASEM 15:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by reviewer: I stand by my decision. The sources are all by the producer of the event; they are self-published sources and as such not reliable. For comparison, would you accept an article about George W. Bush that is exclusively sourced by links to White House web pages and press releases? If articles of this sort cannot be reliably sourced - with third-party sources - we should not have them at all. Sandstein 15:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We can have third-party sources, but they are considered "dirtsheets" in professional wrestling. I've left a note on the WP:PW talkpage, so hopefully some will come over him and give their opinion. Davnel03 15:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think something critical is being missed here. According to Wikipedia:Citing sources, citations are important for several reasons. This article complies with the intent of every one of those reasons. The analogy of the White House doesn't fit. No, I wouldn't necessarily trust the White House to give a completely transparent report on internal matters. But that's not the case here. A better analogy is trusting MLB.com for the scores of the latest baseball games. They give a recap and the score--what reason would I not have to trust them?
Pay per view results are the same as baseball scores. It is not controversial material. It is not likely to be challenged. It is not original research. It is not in conflict with Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. WWE.com is, in many cases, the best place to get accurate results and recaps of weekly shows and major pay per view events. Nothing in the One Night Stand article makes use of editorial opinions or questionable statements from WWE.com. I've gone through the article and I see nothing controversial backed up with a citation to WWE.com.
To address one final point, I think that pay per view results are definitely notable enough to warrant individual articles. They may not be considered particularly noteworthy to people with no interest in wrestling, but most of the articles on Wikipedia would fit the same criteria. I'll never read the articles on Standesamt Samotschin, Mikheyev-Smirnov-Wolfenstein effect or, perhaps slightly closer to the topic at hand, Super Bowl XIV. I do, however, understand that they deserve a place in the encyclopedia because they will be of use to someone. GaryColemanFan 19:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2 Opinions on different things

Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 02:20, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Will this article get a re-reviewing or not? Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 14:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A reviewer does not need to have any interest in the topic they are reviewing. In fact, it is better that they don't, because then they can take a more impartial view on whether the article meets the criteria. In particular, I don't think GA reviews of professional wrestling articles by members of WP:PW are a good way to proceed. As for this article, my view is that it should not have been quick-failed, because it does have some references to sources other than a primary source, and because the sourcing of professional wrestling articles is a contentious issue. However, I agree with the overall decision that the article does not currently meet the criteria. The use of primary sources is fine for facts and exact statistics, but secondary sources are needed for breadth, and to demonstrate notability, as well as for any contentious or non-factual material. The article has now received the review comments at this GAR which were lacking due to the quick-fail. Hence I endorse the failure and suggest that the regular editors of the article find a couple more secondary sources and renominate at GAN. Geometry guy 18:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Blind Ambition (Family Guy)

Result Article was fixed and relisted as suggested. It is now on the list. Discussion deleted by User:Qst so I archived it here. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 23:29, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)
(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

This review appears very poor, it is going against several other individual episode articles for Family Guy, American Dad etc, the reasoning is only minor things, which are common practice among episode articles. Qst 17:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

Hey, most of these problems were fixed yesterday. The user who failed it had no objections to my renomination of it. I'll make the last couple of changes from that list later today. Cheers, Qst 09:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Through the Wire

Result: Closing review, as article was renominated and passed GAC. Drewcifer 23:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)
(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

I think this meets the GA criteria or is at least close to it. I'm listing this here because the editor who reviewed this has made very questionable reviews judging by his talk page. If there are any objections, it can probably be addressed quickly as it's a short article. Spellcast 07:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Battlefield 2142

Result: Delist. (Closed by Blnguyen.) Geometry guy 22:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Awkwardly written, with sections that are too precise and irrelevant to general knowledge of the topic; large swaths of the article are unsourced. Posting notices on the talk page and with main contributors met with no response. David Fuchs (talk) 21:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delist. There are too many unsourced claims, like "More recently in Britain (August 07), the bank Lloyds TSB placed adverts ingame showing various accounts and products available from them." And I agree, it's awkwardly written and fails the good prose criterion. --Malleus Fatuarum 22:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delist Large sections are unreferenced, and the prose is a problem. Also, the balance of out-of-universe to in-universe coverage seems out of whack per WP:FICT guidelines, also the level of detail on the actual gameplay borders on violating WP:NOT#Guide guidelines; Wikipedia is Not a Game Guide... --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delist The article has some referencing and prose issues wich could probably be easily resolved with some tweaks and referencing but its structure also appears somewhat random and there is a lot of trivial material that needs to be cleaned up before this is close to GA standards. - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delist Far too in-depth with the individual elements of the game, this should be an encyclopedia article, not a comprehensive instruction manual. Homestarmy 18:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delist In addition to the above, the story section is a probable copyright violation. I will remove it. This article should be delisted asap. Geometry guy 12:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Facing the Giants

Result: Delist. (Closed by Blnguyen.) Geometry guy 22:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Restarting old GA/R. Although many of the previous GA/R's issues have been addressed a few remain. Namely, a short lead and poor plot section. Drewcifer 03:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bills

Result Snowball delist. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)
(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

Lacks inline references; also too short to provide an adequate view of the subject. Biruitorul 07:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Australian Ringneck

Result Keep (5-1) Though there were several "weak keep" votes, along with the nomination to delist, it would appear that all noted objections have been fixed, and it is unlikely that enough delist votes will arrive to push the consensus in another direction. Consensus seems clear enough to keep it on the list. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 17:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)
(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

Does not seem to be of good article quality WikiTownsvillian 12:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

please explain/expand so it can be addressed. Gnangarra 13:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Besides one citation needed tag, I don't see anything wrong with this article. It seems like ref two covers that section that only has ref two in it. Homestarmy 14:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep Looks fine to me. My only concern is with it's length, though the article may very well be as long as it needs to be considering the topic. Drewcifer 23:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I see NO trouble with it at all. Length is not an issue, broadness is, and this article does not leave me wanting. Also, the referencing seems well within the standards of the scientific citation guideline as spelled out in WP:WIAGA as the relevent citation guideline. Looks fine to me. I see no other variance. If the nominator could explain specifically where he thinks if violates the WP:WIAGA standards, it may help this discussion along... --Jayron32|talk|contribs 23:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep Seems mostly fine, one ((fact)) tag though, and it's pretty slim. VanTucky Talk 23:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Houston, we have a problem... that is, unless someone can show that the copyrighted web page at [3] copied from Wikipedia and not vice-versa. --Ling.Nut 12:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok looking at that page yep its word for word from our article, two reasons one is the images are ones I took and they give the source as wikipedia(not quite complying with attribution requirements, but as photographer I'll contact them) and the second most compelling at the end of the article following the Ecology section it says ..., and are sometimes seen as a pest by farmers. (Source: Wikipedia.org) ..Gnangarra 13:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(undent). Ok then. :-) Fixed a couple links. Your fifth link is broken, please fix. I tried to track down the precise location of the new link.. seems like there's some cool stuff here --Ling.Nut 13:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

done after edit conflict I change the format ((citeweb)) Gnangarra 13:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Groovy. Can you fix that "ref needed" spot? Anyhow Keep. Congrats on an interesting article. :-) --Ling.Nut —Preceding comment was added at 13:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - The fact tag should be addressed, but other than that, the article meets all criteria. Rai-me 01:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fact done now sourced Gnangarra 06:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Preity Zinta

Delist by a consensus of 8-2. Problems noted by the nominater have not been fixed. Also, this GAR discussion is becoming a proxy for a content dispute it appears, and such discussion should be held on the article talk page. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 17:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)
(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

Concerns on 1a, 3b, 4 and most importantly 2b and 2c. Article uses lot of non-RS. Needs copyediting for 1a and 1b. Has got lot of unnecessary details (3b). Article doesnt appear to be neutral, and reads like a fan site, with lot of praises and quotes from the actress herself, or by selected critics. KNM Talk 03:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Why not actually give it a quick copy edit yourselves if you think it is too POV and quickly find some "reliable" sources" and try to actually help it stay as a good article? If you think it is too praising to Zinta then for crying out loud why not contribute so it isn't quickly to save everybody a lot of time and effort in it going not only through GA and then A again. It took weeks to do. I am disgusted with you all particularly from the Indians here who rather than try to help an article from their own country are just finding fault. It really does make me loose all faith in this "wiki system" of hierarchy if the article can pass GA and A with flying colours approved by many who regularly review articles there and now have this happen. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 10:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply. This response is to User:Blofeld of SPECTRE's previous comment in this section where he called a section of people as **** jockeys.
Your response is in a very poor taste and as an established editor you should know about WP:NPA. Somebody's hard work and success should lead to a good quality article, and only then it will be recognised. I can create an article with 1 million **** jockeys written in it, which is definitely hard work but that wont make a good article, would it? Wikipedia editors are well within their rights to question the assessment of an article. If you think that the article is GA, may be you should provide suitable explanations on why the article deserves to be at GA, rather than fuming. And dont blame that Indian editors did not try to contribute to the article. My addition of [citation needed] tags to indicate issues in the article and the responses for the same from the lead editor(s), would hardly motivate me to improve the article further. Moreover, if the lead editor(s) scream and shout and dont assume good faith with other editors, do you think they would come and help to improve the article. High hopes... -- ¿Amar៛Talk to me/My edits 11:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
comment Well in the circumstances of it passing GA and A with flying colours and receiving 25 supports - yes for FA, then get it knocked back to a B after along nomination process and with people now trying to remove aout image license you must see how it came as a shock that weeks of work and effort are being thrown down the pan and appear to have been completely wasted.

Look I can see how you might feel it is written in Zinta's best interest and you have a right to try to demote it but I would rather you out the effort at trying to demote into correcting whatever is wrong with the article. I do think perhaps there are too many positive quotes when I am sure there are negative quotes which could balance the situation. No we shouldn't try to hide her success but I think there are ways of re writing some of the quotes into text so it doesn't sound gushing and appears more neutralized ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 11:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Blofeld - Well, do you think other editors here only for creating trouble? I request you to assume good faith on other editors, Blofeld, and also please do not again make a personal attack on other editors. We all are here for improvement of the article and the encyclopedia. You are asking, "Why not actually give it a quick copy edit yourselves.. ". Have you seen the history of the page, in last 1 day. Every effort of other editors (like Amarrg and myself) are being reverted by the user User:Shshshsh. Just as an example, I spent about 30 minutes on the article for "Early life" section alone, trying it to improve, by addressing all the concerns such as flow, copyedit, self-claims, direct quotes from critics, and few other comments from FAC. But what is the result? Within few minutes, it was reverted to his version. Such a bad faith reverts does not help anyone here, neither the article. And what is with all the cry on it passed with flying colours, 25 supports on FAC and all? Those supports does not by anyway mean, this article cannot be improved nor it has to stay with GA status irrespective of its quality. There are certain criteria an article must possess in order to have GA status, and this article is just not meeting all those criteria. See the nomination above again, and the comments of several editors who have asked for delisting. Unless User:Shshshsh assume good faith on other editors, and stop reverting other users, I'm afraid things may not improve. My two cents. Thanks - KNM Talk 15:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well I've tried to begin rewriting it and any remove some of the quotes to try to address neutrality but it has been reverted. I've had enough ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 11:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you realise that this is an example of what I have said above :) -- ¿Amar៛Talk to me/My edits 11:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK Amargg but you can see how it might appear in that one day it is up for a FA and then suddenly people want it back to a B after a gruelling GA and A process in which we took a lot of time in doing. I can see what you mean about some of the quotes which may appear POV -this can be easily addressed. SOme of the quotes can be written into text providing the same information and not appear POV. What I was annoyed about is that nobody tried to put it right first before taking it for a reassessment. We have had good experiences in the past Amargg ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 11:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it can be easily addressed, but only if the lead editor(s) are more forthcoming to address the issues. I can start to make changes to improve the article but I do not want to enter into an edit-war, which is what is happening now. And the most important, the lead editor(s) must assume good faith with others, otherwise there is no point. -- ¿Amar៛Talk to me/My edits 11:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. What is the problem of reviews. Have you seen Jolie's page? She is successful, and the fact that some users openly show their dislike towards her. Shahid • Talk2me 11:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK I have just looked at it and I have t admit there is too much reliance on rediff.com as a source. Some paragraphs are argued often completely by this source and often on sections which appear praising. I'd like to use some other examples of where this has been cited. We can't form a strong argument based on this source. I stress we must be very careful in writing an encyclopedia article using selective sources in this way. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 12:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My concern is too much reliance on rediff.com and boxofficeIndia.com particularly as the latter doesn't have a home link on it for verification. Encyclopedia articles need to be complied from a variety of sources with references that can be fully verified but scanning the text and the references these are cited too often as are often used to justify whole paragraphs. Now Im not even debating the reliability of these sites -I believe they are but I feel we need to introduce some negative comments on her films and introduce a number of different and reliable sources' and try to address it neutrally for each film rather than conceding it was critically acclaimed. If rediff.com is a fan site then this is flawed, but quoting professional film critics isn't. I would like to see some of the reactions to the film neutrally, Surely there must be other sites which adequately give different reviews of her films. But is does seem that the internet is dominated by fan sites. PLease respond if you agree thanks ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 14:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can see how you may consider the article selective in its use of quotes and text to glorify her but I believed this was fact and indeed vast majority of her performances have been praised cosiderably. Now if you have information that some of her performances have actually not been as acclaimed as appears I would most certainly like to know and I think it is vital to give a neutral view of her career and provide fact. I am not Indian and am not aware of the kind of response she's had but I was sure there shuold be some negative quotes in there also to give a more balanced view- I was judging by Internet sources -which you are now questioning. I apologise if I appeared rude earlier but for its to pass GA and A with flying colours and receive 25 supports for FA then get it knocked back to a B after along nomination process you must see how it came as a shock ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 14:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is though, we need to write a full encyclopedia article neutrally but if there are no sources which can be used to write it adequately and in a balanced way how can it be possible? It would be a very good idea to give a list of websites that are considered to be reliable and neutral and not a fan site and attmept to build it around this. However it appears that removing any of those references which aren't seen as reliable leaves us with a strictly limited and basic reference system and that much of the article would have to be removed as a result. No we can't based on article on fan sites with clear POV but there unfortunately doens't appear to be many if any sites which can be used here which meet the criteria, especially on a Bollywood related article when much online details are generated by the fan base anyway. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 14:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One problem with on examining the reliability of Indian media/film websites is their lack of international/wide recognition. For example, Indiafm, which is one of the prominent Bollywood related website and consistently ranks in top 100 websites in India (by Alexa ranking), does not even have an article in Wikipedia.

I think, the point that are being discussed here (and noted in the recently closed FAC) form a base on which further improvement of the articles can be directed. Indeed, I started mild copyediting of the article yesterday. So, I would rather plead for allowing some time. And two recommendations I cannot but put forward. For the main two editors - please be more forthcoming. For the main people involved in this GA re-assesment, please let's be somewhat more patient and help the article improve. the role of assuming good faith cannot be overemphasized in this situation.

One practical recommendation: Shaheed, you create a sub-user page and save a copy of the article (in its present state), then let the article take whatever shape it gets for next few days. People are in general very helping in wikipedia. The article is bound to improve. Afterwards, you can compare your saved version with the changed article. I am sure you will see most of the concerns being addressed. And then again, we can go forward for an FAC. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Sorry? This POV you're talking about took the article to an 'A' class, and the fact that all these guys who opposed to its FAC promotion are here, doesn't necessarily mean that the article is bad, when all these 25 guys who supported its promotion are not here. These same users come always to each one's defence, when it's needed, to try and force their opinion on others.
My work follows the work of several editors on other FAs, and if other FACs can be supported, this article can also be supported especially when it's inspired by them. I don't appreciate my work being removed just because someone dislikes the stuff personally, and thinks it's bad, without any policies or factual guidelines. I just don't want to even think about keeping it here, as GA; you can declare it as delisted ASAP; I won't regret. Several editors here just expressed their dislike towards the actress, some of them expressed their dislike towards me. I didn't revert edits, I reverted baseless removals which are based on their very POV, without any, again, basic reason.
My reason to add some quotes is because it appears like this on several FAs. Their reason to remove some quotes is just because they don't like it. My point was, another FA can have it, and this article cannot? And then some of them nominated this here, and I find it very strange that all of these users who opposed on the FAC, were instantly here to vote for its delisting. I guess it was something e-mail related, but I'm not sure so I won't speculate.
As per WP:OWN, see Dwaipayanc's recent edits. I didn't revert even one single edit of his, because he is clearly here to help, not to enforce his POV on others. He helps improving the level, the reliability issues, while other editors didn't even care, and only blanked content, claiming it to be copyedits (huh). Some people do need to take lessons and get the matter about what a copyedit is.
I'm not a die-hard fan of this actress, nor am I here to glorify her. Here are all the guys who have opposed the FAC. Just imagine what would happen, if the 25 who supported came here to vote. All these users here presented me in a bad light. That's a shame. I guess these are some of my worst days on here. Good luck to all in their mission. But nevertheless, I'm proud of my work very much, regardless of what others have to say. And that's something that no one can take from me. Shahid • Talk2me 08:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Universe

Result Delist, 10-1. Also, article appears to have not gone through the normal nomination and promotion process. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)
(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

This article fails to meet criterion 4 of the GA criteria (neutrality). As I pointed out at the article's talk page, this article provides no information about the Creationist version of the creation of the Universe. According to our Neutrality Policy, "neutrality" means "representing fairly and, as much as possible, without bias all significant views." Creationism is a view held by almost every major religion in the world; I think it merits inclusion in the article. I suggested here that something be added, but all I got was an offer to add Creationism to the "see also" section and an accusation of being a vandal. This article does not deserve recognition as being of Good Article quality. --Agüeybaná 02:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Weak Delist Changed from keep since it appears the article wasn't nominated properly, though I still think for the most part it abides by the criteria. Drewcifer 23:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised that everyone else here thinks it meets the criteria. Maybe how this was raised has something to do with it. Wikipedia is fortunate that it has many well-educated and intelligent editors who know that creationism is a load of nonsense, and gets far too much coverage in the media. Consequently, "This isn't a GA because it doesn't give enough weight to the creationist viewpoint" is quite likely to get the response "Oh yes it is".
I actually agree with Jorfer's review. The lead is inadequate as a summary of the article, and this is now worse, as the sentence quoted by VanTucky has been added to the lead, but is not developed elsewhere: when the article was first listed here, the only references to other viewpoints were the dablink at the top, and a link in the "See also" section. I really think that other viewpoints on the universe deserve a paragraph, maybe as part of an extended final section on "Other terminology and viewpoints". Wikipedia is in danger of shooting itself in the foot if it fails to provide good linkage from scientific articles to other viewpoints: the last thing we want to be saying to a religiously inclined reader is "You are not welcome here: go to Conservapedia!"
Jorfer also criticised the verifiability: there are still ((fact)) tags, but also some of the section tags have been removed without being replaced by adequate citation, in my view. Finally, I think some of the science is weak and/or poorly explained. For example: the universe and observable universe are confused (e.g., the observable universe is not infinite, but the universe may be); the discussion of matter vs. antimatter essentially contradicts itself. I believe these issues can be easily addressed. I suggest that this be done, then the article should be renominated. Geometry guy 20:13, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think a treatment of the history of how various cultures viewed the universe would more appropriately be found in an article titled 'History of Astronomy.' Luckily, we have History of Astronomy. AvruchTalk 21:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but unluckily, this article does not link to History of Astronomy, nor does it provide an appropriate place (other than "See also") for making such a link. Geometry guy 21:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A full treatment of the subject would, certainly, belong in another article. But as a top-level article, this one should be using summary style for more nuanced aspects of the topic, and it's certainly not so long that there isn't room for more material. Homestarmy 23:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you mean "...not broad enough for a top level Universe page" ;-) Geometry guy 20:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why guess? Why not check a dictionary? From the OCD: "comprehensive - complete; including all or nearly all aspects, etc." Which is precisely what I meant. Perhaps you've confused "comprehensive" with "comprehensible"? --Malleus Fatuarum 21:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It was a joke: the good article criteria require an article to be broad, the featured article criteria require it to be comprehensive. (I agree with you, though, that this article is not broad/comprehensive enough for GA.) Geometry guy 21:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see. I had thought that your comment might be in some way related to the flak I received this morning about my criticism of another editor for describing some topics as being more vital than others. To which I drew the analalgy of some people being more dead than others. I suppose I was just a bit over-sensitive following that incident. Sorry. --Malleus Fatuarum 21:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Do you stand by that view even thought the article never was properly listed as a GA (see my comment above, in case you missed it)? Geometry guy 18:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just a response. While we should not reward people who obviously and blatantly refuse to follow established process, we should also not refuse to recognize this article as "Good" if it cleary now meets the criteria, regardless of how it was originally passed. I would see no problem with renominating this one, but this article has already recieved NUMEROUS reviews above. I don't see many delist votes based on the content of the article, only on the process that got it promoted. Per WP:WIKILAWYER, I would be interested to see if anyone who voted delist based solely on the method of promotion would suspend that reason for a second, and comment on the content of the article. I can respect if there are genuine and serious variances with the WP:WIAGA guidelines, but this isn't a popularity contest or a reward system. This article has been worked on by dozens of editors, and we aren't really "punishing" someone (besides the list itself) by removing from the list an article that meets all the criteria on a technicality. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 18:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you thinks it meets the criteria feel free to re-nominate after it has been delisted, logic tells that if something hasn't passed the proper process to reach a status it isn't worthy of it. - Caribbean~H.Q. 19:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that our task is to determine whether or not this article meets the criteria. However, please remember that this is not a vote, and it is equally important to base arguments on the criteria, and not on agreement or disagreement with the nominator, or the approach of the nominator.
The initial "keep" votes were primarily responding to the nominators approach, not providing arguments why this article meets the criteria: at that time the article was believed to be a bona-fide GA. In fact it was a failed GAN that was vandalized. I have argued, in general agreement with the solid fail review by Jorfer, that the article does not meet 1a, 1b (lead), 2b, and 3a, in addition to the question mark over 4. There is probably some OR too. No one has countered these arguments. In fact most substantive comments support the idea that this article doesn't quite meet the criteria at present. Far from being punished, this article will benefit from the improvements it needs to be sure of a successful GAN. Geometry guy 21:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) Disappointed Delist Nothing we say changes the fact that the failure to follow process is an automatic delist. I'm a bit disappointed in the beacon-like glare of POV of the comments here, by well-established and respected editors no less. Please direct all flames here. --Ling.Nut 00:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cooperative

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)
(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

There are almost no citations in the article. There is also possible bias and multiple grammar and spelling errors. Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 02:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Norman_Finkelstein

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)
(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

The reviewer did not provide a basis on which to bring the article up to the standards. Apparently failed based on a POV tag in the reference section, but the discussion on the ref section has been over for weeks. AvruchTalk 14:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see you have removed the tag, now. I would have thought a re-nomination would be in order. --Peter cohen 20:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Computer program

Result: The article is still lacking in broadness, with unclear prose, a weak lead, and very choppy short sections. The article has been suffering from instability and does not appear to have recovered from a recent edit war. Those who initially supported the article have abandoned their support. I hope they will return at some point to restore it to GA standard, but at the moment the best thing to do is delist. Geometry guy 20:54, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot see how this got promoted to GA status. It seems to me it is pretty far off by many standards. For such a big topic the article is way too small (criteria 3a), the lead section takes up half the article (1b), the prose is faulty in a few places and not always easy to understand even for someone who knows the topic well (1a). I've looked at an older version of the article, good job to everyone who has improved on that, but I'm sorry I don't see how this meets the GA criteria.--Sir Anon 00:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Regarding "For such a big topic the article is way too small": Whereas the topic of computers in general is a big topic, the topic of computer programs is quite specific, namely it's only the instructions for computers. criteria 3a requires that the article address the major aspects of the topic. And the footnote says, "This requirement is significantly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required by WP:FAC; it allows shorter articles ... to be listed." What major aspects of the instructions for computers are missing?
  2. Regarding "the lead section takes up half the article": Wikipedia:Lead section says, "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable ..." The computer program article's lead section is capable of standing alone as a concise overview of computer programs. It covers computer programs that are software and computer programs that are hardware. The fact that it takes up half the article is because the other major aspects of computer programs covered outside the lead are just summaries of wikilinked articles. The reader can visit the main article for information on that aspect of computer programs. Maybe paragraphs two through four should contain their own headings.
  3. Regarding "the prose is faulty in a few places": please be specific.
  4. Regarding "not always easy to understand even for someone who knows the topic well": please be specific.
Please post any replies below. This response was submitted by Timhowardriley 01:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Regarding "a haphazard list of mentioning what sorts of things happen when a computer program is executed, it mentions RAM and the CPU, but its hard to tell why they are mentioned to the exclusion of every other part of a computer that a program ultimately has to run through, such as cables, various buses, etc. etc..": It seems you're referring to the computer programs that are embedded into hardware. It is not a haphazard list; instead, computer programs embedded in hardware are 1) in ROM to boot and 2) in devices to function independently. The article says, "The boot process is to identify and initialize all aspects of the system..." followed by examples. These examples were chosen because Silberschatz chose them in his book. I don't think computer programs initialize cables, but if you have a source on how computer programs initializing busses, then that would be a nice addition.
  2. Regarding '"Without a computer program, a computer would not run" or whatever it says in the lead is not very specific, because "run" is not defined': Webopedia says, "Without programs, computers are useless." Whereas this is probably most true, I chose "would not run" to be not as negative. The purpose of the sentence is to explain why the subject is interesting or notable. I would consider the fact that computers "run" to be an axiom.
  3. Regarding "Too short": please see my previous post.
Please post any replies below. This response was submitted by Timhowardriley 02:46, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Regarding '"How does a sort program, for instance, help to "maintain the computer"?' According to the Utility software article, "[utility programs] ... help manage and tune the computer hardware, operating system or application software, and perform a single task or a small range of tasks; as opposed to application software which tend to be software suites." I chose to shorten this information to the minimum words with no loss of meaning. I can now see the ambiguity of the word "utility". The sort program is a utility at the application level. But the context of utility in the sentence in the article is system software.
  2. Regarding "It's stretching credibility to include COBOL as an example of self-modifying programs (presumably on the basis of its ALTER verb)": it's exactly the ALTER verb that enables COBOL programs to modify themselves.
  3. Regarding "generative programming": this looks interesting. Thanks for introducing it to me. Maybe Wikipedia readers would like a paragraph of this in the computer program article.
  4. Regarding "the article is poorly written": Do you mean there are punctuation problems? Grammar problems? Subject/verb agreement problems? Parallel structure problems? Transition problems? Spelling problems?
  5. Regarding "missing lots of important information": You only mentioned one topic missing: generative programming. Yes. Now that you mention it, with the advent of application servers, generative programming would be a nice addition. However, this is not "lots of important information".
  6. Regarding "what information is there is sometimes dubious.": The information in the article is well researched and sourced.
  7. Regarding "My guess on that sentence would be that the editor was referring to things like Scan Disk and whatnot, though that would qualify as OS software, not something hard wired into the system." Yes. Scan Disk is a utility program. The article does not claim that utility programs are operating system software. (I'm a believer that the operating system doesn't extend that far from the kernel itself.) However, the article does categorize utility programs as system software, of which the operating system also belongs.
Please post any replies below. This response was submitted by Timhowardriley 03:22, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reply:
  1. "Poorly written" in that some of the sentences don't make sense. For instance: "Computer programs may be categorized along programming language paradigms: imperative, declarative, or visual." That sentence confuses language categorisation with program categorisation. I have never seen or heard anyone describe a computer program - as opposed to a programming language - as being declarative, for instance.
  2. I was just giving one example of the kind of information that's missing in generative programming, and it has absolutely nothing to do with application servers. Another example is the history of computer programs. Who wrote the first one? When did it run? How do computer programs run? What does a binary instruction look like?
  3. Here's one example of dubious information: "Application software includes middleware, which couples the system software with the user interface." Whose definition of middleware is that? It's certainly not a definition that I would recognise or agree with. "Editing source code involves testing ...". Does it? Editing the source code? "The sometimes lengthy process of computer programming is usually referred to as software development." Software development involves a good deal more than writing computer programs, and may not even involve writing "programs" at all in these days of component based development.
  4. I remain convinced that this article ought not to have been promoted to GA and ought to be delisted. --Malleus Fatuarum 13:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you: as a result of your specific constructive criticisms, numerous edits have been made to the article. Yes, the history of computer programs could be added. Yes, application servers that generate computer programs as html, css, java, and javascript would qualify as generative programming applications. Wikipedia is a good example of an application that generates computer programs as it generates these pages to your browser. Regarding your questioning of middleware and editing: as a result of Morgan's Moore's law, the technology as evolved faster than the vocabulary can keep up. The nuances expressed in the article are just those nuances from one standpoint. The more quality editors joining the article, the more nuances can be further explored. However, the fact that nuances can be ambiguious, does not mean that the expressed usage of the vocabulary is not of high quality. Timhowardriley 21:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Having been myself a professional computer programmer for over 20 years I would be more than happy to help in working on the article; it's a widely misunderstod field. But the fact remains that as it stands this article ought not to have been listed as a GA. So I have to stick with my Delist. It's a very broad subject, and I can see that the article is developing along the right lines. Nevertheless it isn't there yet, and it shouldn't have been listed. --Malleus Fatuarum 00:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding "The article is unnecessarily jargon-laden and not well written for the uninitiated reader.": The article starts out with simple concepts, then branches out to the nuances. Fortunately, Wikipedia is rich enough to have wikilinks for most of the vocabulary used.
  • Regarding "Also, per WP:LEAD, the lead is not really a summary of the article." I now agree and have made the proper edit.
  • Regarding "The article is NOT well-organized, either within each section, or as a whole.": Here is the organization of the article:
  • Essential characteristics of computer programs
  1. Computer programs that are software
  2. Computer programs that are hardware
  3. Computer programs, both software and hardware, manually inputted
Note: manually inputted computer programs are significant because it gives the reader an idea of the mechanics of what now is automated and therefore hidden.
  • Categories of computer program
  • Categorized by function
  • system
  • operating system programs
  • maintenance utility programs
  • application
  • Categorized by language paradigm
  • imperative
  • declarative
  • visual
  • Peripherial information regarding computer programs
  • Execution
  • How programs are loaded
  • Many programs can simultaneously run
  • Simultaneous programs through software techniques
  • Simultaneous programs through hardware techniques
Please post any replies below. This response was submitted by Timhowardriley 08:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Regarding "the lead section takes up half the article": I read too much into Wikipedia:Lead section says, "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article..." I added headings for paragraphs two through four, and it now looks consistent with Wikipedia.
  2. Regarding "How does a sort program..." belong to system software: I addressed the ambiguity of utility programs by saying that utility programs also solve application problems.
  3. Regarding '"Without a computer program, a computer would not run" or whatever it says in the lead is not very specific, because "run" is not defined; does that mean provide a useful function, or that power won't come on, or what?': I replaced "computers would not run" with "computers are useless".
Please post any replies below. This response was submitted by Timhowardriley 07:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The lead is still somewhat weak. Particularly the second and thrid sentences. The second sentnece is poorly written and somewhat vauge, and the third reads more like an argument then an encyclopedic entry ("Morever" especially). Also, I still don't think it really summarizes the rest of the article. Ideally, I'd recommend at least a sentence dedicated to each section, though you may be able to squeeze a few together.
  2. The citations should be immediately after punctation and without a space. This.[1] Not this. [2]
  3. Many of the sections seems somewhat small, especially the subjects containing a Main Article link. For many of these sections, it may just be a simple matter of lifting a few sentences or a paragraph or two from other articles to fill things out a bit.
  4. Along the same lines as the previous point, and after lookin at the organizational bullet points posted above, I definately would say things could be expanded considerably. Some of those bullet points mentioned above are only represented by a single sentence or two, when I'm sure they could be expanded to a fairly robust section/subsection.
  5. Lastly, organization-wise, I would say the article would benefit from some subsections, rather than a whole bunch of full-blown sections. The good thing about turning some sections into subsections would be that a) they wouldn't need to be as long as a full section ideally should be, b) the content is organized more logically and readably, and c) you could introduce some ideas behind various subsections in the introduction to the full section. I'm not sure if the way I said that made any sense, but hopefully that was clear.
Hope all of this seems doable. Drewcifer 10:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead seems to have disappeared to almost nothing. I wonder if we're both looking at the same article? In any event, it's patently clear that the article is not stable, an automatic GA fail. --Malleus Fatuarum 00:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article is rather on the short side, has many sections, and some of them are sort of small to bother summarizing in the lead. At least, that's what I think of it. However, the article instability is a direct result of this GA/R I presume, (Unless there's some edit war i'm not seeing?) and instability created as a result of the GA process is exempt for stability rules. I don't know if that's formally in a guideline somewhere or not, but it has been the informal consensus around here anyway. Homestarmy 01:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I really don't see the problem here. The article when it was listed clearly did not meet the GA criteria. Some work has been done on it since this objection to its listing was raised, but not nearly enough. Your argument about some sections being too small to summarise in the lead seems to be disingenuous, as the lead is supposed to be a short summary of the article. Two rather desperate looking sentences hardly constitutes a summary. --Malleus Fatuarum 01:50, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm, it seems you're right, but when I looked at it earlier today, it was at least several sentences long. Now, it is too short. I'll avoid making another decision until the editing stops mostly, but if the current lead is what the main author is shooting for, this article should never be a GA. Homestarmy 02:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, I know a great deal about computer programs and programming, and I know that that this article does not even get close to doing justice to that subject. It's not a copyedit that's needed but a complete re-think. As to to the wider issue of helping to improve the article, fine. But that's not the issue being discussed here. --Malleus Fatuarum 04:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Be careful I am also a professional software engineer with many years experience. There is a lot of stuff about programming and programs that professional developers know that does not belong in what should be a high level introductory article that should be easy to read even for some one with little or no computer science background. As it is there is probably too much technical terminology in the article right now.Rusty Cashman 20:27, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, I will no longer try to find ways to improve an article. I am sorry if I thought that was the purpose of Wikipedia. It is apparently not. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 04:52, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Forgive me for saying so, but you seem to have lost your way. We are not discussing the "improvement of articles", or the "purpose of wikipeda"; we're discussing whether this article ought to have been listed as a GA. --Malleus Fatuarum 05:02, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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