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Including references in infoboxes to prevent edit wars

In editing dozens of music genre articles over the years, I've noticed a pattern that they're far less likely to have WP:GWAR issues if citations are included in the infobox. Can a sentence be added to acknowledge this? Something like

Sometimes inline citations are recommended as a measure against frequent long-term disruptions, which are especially prevalent on musical genre or band articles.

One example of this working effectively is on Vaporwave, which has nowhere near the level of infobox fiddling since this edit.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 14:26, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Pictures in election infoboxes

The manual currently says that, "Infoboxes may also include an image, and/ or a map." However, many election article infoboxes include up to 10 images, e.g. Irish general election, 2016 with 9 headshots (although 2 missing) + a map. Personally, I think this produces an unwieldy, overly large result and I prefer the legislative election infobox, e.g. Montenegrin parliamentary election, 2012, but that is currently less commonly used.

I also note that most election article infoboxes use a flag icon, although the manual says these should be avoided.

These are longstanding issues, but have come to mind with the forthcoming UK election and discussion here: Talk:Next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Infobox_consensus_2017. I wondered if the broader community here had any thoughts about election article infoboxes. Bondegezou (talk) 12:27, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion I think that one of the purposes of the infobox is to show the most important information concisely, therefore the large infoboxes like in the former are appropriate if the article is long. However if the article is short then the smaller infobox like in the latter should be used. I think we need to establish a threshold for inclusion thought, rather than blindly putting in every candidate. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:37, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
The idea of some sort of threshold is perhaps better left to the elections WikiProject, but some guidance of how WP:INFOBOX applies would be valuable.
I am, myself, wary of the idea of a threshold, it risks creating a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS when we should stick to basic policy. However, a while back, I looked at what the infobox did for the most recent election article in every European country. There was no standard approach to inclusion, but 31 articles included every party who won a seat, 16 included a smaller number of parties than won seats, and 3 included every party who won a seat plus one who didn't. That suggests to me that the best threshold is "every party that won a seat". Bondegezou (talk) 13:58, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
There is, as you can see here strong opposition to not using flag icons. How do we tackle that? Push to remove them as per guidance here, or re-write guidance to add some exceptions? Bondegezou (talk) 14:00, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
I think we should leave out the flag if you are referring to the UK flag, as it is merely a UK election and not international. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:09, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
On the topic of flag icons, I've started a discussion at Template talk:Infobox election#Flag icon. Bondegezou (talk) 13:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Enhanced Infoboxes and Better Search

I responded to this on my talk page. — JJMC89 (T·C) 04:25, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Just adding a comment- this is a problem for our newusers, particular those who are experts in their own field. The information is there but finding it takes far too long- and when you do there is too much of it. Two decades into the Wikipedia project, we need to focus on the needs of the actual user- (and the trainer) not on just how clever we have been in the past. A little bit of artificial intelligence could work wonders here. ClemRutter (talk) 09:14, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Pre-RfC: Flag icons in infoboxes

Per "Avoid flag icons." (WP:INFOBOXUSE) and "Flag icons should not be used in infoboxes" (WP:INFOBOXFLAG), I am considering removing flag items from a large number of infoboxes such as Notre-Dame de Paris, United States Navy SEALs, and Iberian Peninsula. I asked about this at Template talk:Infobox#Flag icons in infoboxes and it was pointed out that ((Infobox settlement)) has a section for adding flags. It was suggested that I post an RfC here. The reason this is a pre-RfC and not an RfC is because I want to first gather all existing policies, guidelines and RfCs, and from that information decide exactly what to ask in the RfC (if one is needed). Comments?? --Guy Macon (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Are you asking about the image_flag parameter? That's not an icon but the flag itself, meant to depict the flag for identification purposes, like a logo. See the flag section (complete with an article link) in the Chicago article's infobox, for example. Nyttend (talk) 03:50, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Avoid red links

I made this change and was reverted by UnitedStatesian here. To just say "Avoid red links" is misleading because WP:NAV, the inspiration for the bullet points, says, "Red links should normally be avoided unless they are very likely to be developed into articles." What I wrote is similar to what WP:NAV says. Otherwise the impression is that we should never have red links in infoboxes, for which there is no basis. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 23:03, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I think there is a material difference between "plausibly" and "very likely." I would be fine with a change to language identical to the current language of WP:NAV. UnitedStatesian (talk) 23:27, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
It is more accurately tied to WP:REDLINK, which says, "In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article..." Perhaps WP:NAV needs to be in line with that as well. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 23:33, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Nope. There is a difference between articles and navigation boxes. Navigation boxes exist for navigation, and redlinks cannot be used for navigation. That is the reason for the treatment that is different from redlinks in articles. UnitedStatesian (talk) 23:59, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Infoboxes should match the article approach more than the navigation-box approach. An infobox will have details regardless of being linked or not. I agree that a more nuanced approach is appropriate for navigation boxes due your stated reason, but it does not apply here. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 01:16, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Shouldn't red links be avoid in infoboxes entirely, given they summarise the article and so the red link should already be in the body? I always think red links in an infobox look really messy because of the density of information. Rob984 (talk) 09:05, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Rob984 is right and like coffee to hot warnings perhaps we should mention this obvious fact in this MoS.--Moxy (talk) 18:13, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Red links looking "really messy" is not an excuse not to include them. Nothing in WP:REDLINK denies red links in infoboxes. In addition, not every single thing in an infobox will be in the article body. For the film infobox, there are some credits that do not get mentioned in the body. For example, a film editor who won awards (for other films, not this hypothetical one) should get a red link in the infobox. Blue links are allowed in infoboxes anyway despite the summary/in-the-body excuse. Actually, MOS:DUPLINK supports repeating links in infoboxes, with no discerning between blue or red. Do we need to launch an RfC about this? Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:12, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
I think Erik is right here. Infoboxes should match the article approach more than the navigation-box approach. Bondegezou (talk) 13:55, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Erik is correct our guide allows them as per WP:SIDEBAR....but in-general they are discouraged. No one should be removing them just because there red.....but on the other hand they should not sit there indefinitely. So a case by case approach is best.--Moxy (talk) 14:52, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Red links looking "really messy" is not an excuse not to include them.

Yes it is. See WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. It doesn't explicitly exclude unnecessary links, but I think this clearly contravenes the principal of "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose" and "[excluding] any unnecessary content". The more illegible, cluttered, and messy an infobox becomes, the more useless it is.

For example, a film editor who won awards (for other films, not this hypothetical one) should get a red link in the infobox.

If there are already red links elsewhere on Wikipedia, one does not need to be placed in the infobox of an article which it lacks significant relevance to. If the only place for a link on Wikipedia is in an infobox, it isn't notable.

Blue links are allowed in infoboxes anyway despite the summary/in-the-body excuse.

To the reader, relevant blue links are helpful and not obnoxious. Red links are the opposite. Granted this is the same for the body of the article, but the difference is that the body's main purpose isn't to "[allow] readers to identify key facts at a glance".
Frankly, my view is that red links should be in article bodies and—where necessary—in navboxes, but rarely—if ever—in an infobox.
Rob984 (talk) 15:03, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
I don't see the value of placing red links in infoboxes. The whole point of red-linking an item is encourage editors to write an article on a notable topic, and red links allow an editor to gauge the demand for such an article. Since an infobox is duplicating information already in the article body and lead, the item will already have a red link in that article, so putting another in the infobox serves no purpose. Blue links in infoboxes are useful because they give a reader a chance to follow them to a topic they may be interested in. Red links provide no such opportunity for the reader, and merely distract from the more valuable links – why do you think we give the guidance in WP:OVERLINK only to link the most valuable items and not dilute them in a sea of blue? That advice goes double for red links. The only reasonable excuse for a red link in a navbox or an infobox is that the editor is about to create an article on that notable topic and turn the red link blue. Other than in that (temporary) situation, there's no justification for red links outside of article text at all. --RexxS (talk) 21:30, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Rob984, WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE has nothing at all to do with links, so it is not a reason to exclude red links. Your response about not linking to the film editor contravenes WP:REDLINK in every sense of the guideline. You are saying we should not link to an obviously-notable film editor at all in any Wikipedia article's infobox even though per WP:REDLINK that could be an opportunity for any editor to soon come by and create an article. Lastly, saying that readers find red links "obnoxious" is irrelevant. Red links are very much part of Wikipedia. RexxS, as stated before, an infobox does not necessarily repeat everything shown somewhere in the article body, and even if it was a "duplicate", it could easily appear much later, effectively making the more upfront red link the "main" one and thus more actionable. WP:OVERLINK allows for links to be repeated in infoboxes. There's no advice going "double" for red links. Since the feedback is mixed, I'll launch an RfC shortly. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 12:31, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Okay, I'd welcome a RfC to see what others think. I feel like you're just citing policies and not really considering my points about the unique nature of infoboxes. Principally, this guideline states "Avoid red links", and I don't think this is because of a misunderstand of other guidelines and policies. Infoboxes are also very much a part of Wikipedia, and their specific aims and goals should not be ignored. Also, articles should be complete without the infobox, and editors who only look at an article's infobox probably aren't likely to be expanding coverage on related topics (so the number of missed opportunities will be minimal). Rob984 (talk) 13:26, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
See below. :) I think we have to remember the spirit of red links per WP:REDLINK, that Wikipedia is always a work in progress. I'm not arguing to get red links permitted so there is always red everywhere. WP:REDLINK says red links are appropriate "if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article". So they can be removed if a simple search engine test shows nothing of value. I don't think the "duplicate" argument is strong because if a red link is good, however brief its existence may be, that implies that it would normally be a blue link if the article already existed. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:50, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
@Erik: You say that an infobox does not necessarily repeat everything shown somewhere in the article body, but bring no evidence of that. I dispute it: there are over 2.5 million infoboxes in Wikipedia and you'll be very hard-pushed to find any that contain a notable item that (a) has no article; (b) is not mentioned elsewhere in the text. Let's see these examples you're claiming are so important as to overrule our current practices. Secondly, you say it could easily appear much later, effectively making the more upfront red link the "main" one and thus more actionable, which is nonsense. Red links are for the use of editors, not readers, and I don't agree that disadvantaging readers (which red links do) should take priority over expecting editors to look over an article if they are searching for red links to turn into articles. Although if that's what they are doing, I'm at a loss to understand why they don't just peruse Wikipedia:Most-wanted articles as a far more efficient means of doing that. --RexxS (talk) 17:06, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, I've been here a decade+ and see no evidence of a trend toward redlinking trivia in infoboxes, nor that it's crucial to article creation. The RfC below is unfortunate, because it's a pile-on of REDYES fandom without any critical thinking applied to the intent and function differences between infoboxes and navboxes. That said, using the same redlink-related language in both guidelines isn't likely to be all that problematic. It's actually tighter than the "could plausibly sustain an article" language (and should remain that way; it's tighter for a reason).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:43, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Red links in infoboxes

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Consensus was reached to allow red links in infoboxes. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 15:41, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Currently, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes says of red links, "Like navigation templates, infoboxes should... Avoid red links. For more information, see WP:REDLINK and WP:REDNOT." Wikipedia:Navigation template says of red links, "Red links should normally be avoided unless they are very likely to be developed into articles. Red links can be retained in navigation templates that represent a well-defined and complete set of data (geographic divisions, annual events, filmographies, etc.), where deleting red links would leave an incomplete and misleading result. Even then, editors are encouraged to write the article first." Should MOS:INFOBOX tell editors to avoid adding red links at all to infoboxes? Should it tell editors to avoid red links under certain conditions or to add them under certain conditions? WP:REDLINK outlines Wikipedia's overall editing guideline in regard to red links. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:42, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Survey

Discussion

MOS:INFOBOX is extremist in its language banning all red links where it could easily copy the inspiring navigation template guideline's language, "Red links should normally be avoided unless they are very likely to be developed into articles." Furthermore, linking in infoboxes should be more lenient than linking in navigation templates because the infoboxes will list the pertinent topic details regardless of whether or not linking is involved. Per WP:OVERLINK, the infobox can repeat (blue) links in the article body. A red link should also exist to become blue. There should not be any exclusionary treatment (especially rooted in complaining about how it looks, which has zero merit) that requires an infobox's term to be linked only after the article is created. When a bold editor creates an article, all pertinent red links in the appropriate places (such as the infobox) should exist to be "activated" as if there was always an article all this time. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:42, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

It is poor reasoning to attempt to deconstruct each word of guidance to try to make a point. Get back to basics. Reason dictates that the purpose of red links is not to help the readers, but to help editors who can check [What links here] on an article they are drafting in mainspace. And that's their only purpose. If a linkable, notable item is important enough to be in an infobox, them it will appear – and be properly linked – in the text as well, therefore repeating the red link in an infobox adds nothing for the editor who already has that [What links here], and serves as a powerful distraction for the reader from other, worthy links. No reasoning can demonstrate any value whatsoever for red links in infoboxes. --RexxS (talk) 16:55, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, get back to basics. Red links help Wikipedia grow. Your claim that red links serve "as a powerful distraction" is a canard rooted in disliking the sight of them, or believing it is valid to acquiesce to those who don't like the sight of them. There is zero policy-based or guideline-based support to remove them to improve the aesthetic. The simple fact is that it is permissible for the infobox to repeat links that are in the article body. This repetition is permitted to help readers why? Because different groups of readers look at a topic differently. Some want to look up something they know are in the infobox, some will read the lead section, some will read the entire article body or only parts of it. Readers are not distinct from editors, either. WP:REDDEAL says, "Red links serve the purpose of notifying readers that a need exists in Wikipedia for creation of a new article with at least minimal information content... The red link also gives readers the opportunity to click on it to create the needed article on the spot." And not all red links in an infobox are necessarily visible within the same view or even in the body itself. As I explained, the film infobox has credits whose names may not necessarily appear in the article body. There could also be chronology-related terms (preceding work or succeeding work) not necessarily mentioned in the article body either. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 18:47, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Red links in articles do help Wikipedia grow. However, duplicating red links in infoboxes does absolutely nothing to help Wikipedia grow and provide worthless links that dilute the value of useful blue links in infoboxes. The advice in WP:OVERLINK is compelling:
  • "An overlinked article contains an excessive number of links, making it difficult to identify links likely to aid the reader's understanding significantly.[1] A 2015 study of log data found that "in the English Wikipedia, of all the 800,000 links added ... in February 2015, the majority (66%) were not clicked even a single time in March 2015, and among the rest, most links were clicked only very rarely", and that "simply adding more links does not increase the overall number of clicks taken from a page. Instead, links compete with each other for user attention."[2]"

References

  1. ^ Dvorak, John C. (April 16, 2002). "Missing Links". PC Magazine. Retrieved September 16, 2015.
  2. ^ Ashwin Paranjape, Bob West, Jure Leskovec, Leila Zia: Improving Website Hyperlink Structure Using Server Logs. WSDM’16, February 22–25, 2016, San Francisco, CA, USA. PDF
"links compete with each other for user attention": We're writing this encyclopedia for its readers not for editors, and one red link per item is more than sufficient. So there are plenty of reasons – as well as the policy & guidelines that you find so vital – that support removing red links. Not because of the aesthetic, but because of the competition they provide for genuine links that are likely to aid the reader's understanding significantly. WP:REDDEAL confuses readers with editors. How many cases do you know of a reader who spots a red link in an article and can successfully generate the "better than minimalist marker stubs" that REDDEAL requires? Answer: none. And if they were able to do that (i.e. they are actually editors), they can just as easily do it from the body of an article. There's no need to duplicate it in the infobox. if the film infobox has credits whose names may not necessarily appear in the article body, and they are notable, and they have no article, then give us examples and we can make sure that such notable people have at least a mention in the article text, where they should be. The same goes for succession boxes: if notable items are important enough to be mentioned in the infobox, then they certainly ought to be important enough to be discussed in the text. WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE applies: "keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored)." --RexxS (talk) 19:14, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
This completely ignores the possibility of the non-infobox red link appearing elsewhere from the same view as the infobox or even not at all in the article body. There is not even put forth an agreement to allow red links in such cases. I work with film articles, and credited persons not always mentioned in the article body can include the producers, screenwriters, editors, and cinematographers. There are production companies mentioned in the infobox not always mentioned either. WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE says, "As with any guideline, there will be exceptions where a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text, but where that information may be placed in the infobox." Even if red links for such entities existed in the article body, it would not compete with the ones in the infobox. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 14:05, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Where are the examples? You are proposing to ditch sensible general advice designed to improve the readers' experience to satisfy a tiny number of editors who produce infoboxes that breach our guidelines. The exceptions to INFOBOXPURPOSE are meant to be just that - exceptions, not the general rule. Your proposed change would allow a myriad of red links in every infobox where they would serve no useful purpose and merely distract, despite being already red-linked in the article body. It's an untenable position. --RexxS (talk) 17:09, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
In the 11 years I've known WP Film, I can reassure you it has been much more than "a tiny number of editors" involved in developing and maintaining the huge number of films articles Wikipedia has. However, the way I understand what Eric is proposing, is not about satisfying any number of editors in their tasks, but about improving Wikipedia become richer in content. And I agree that careful red linking in the infobox, for example, to a non-American director from within a film article about a film that won an important festival award, like in Cannes, or Berlin, is a marker that says "we need this article" and calls for anyone who knows more or who is willing to volunteer one's times in creating it. This is what Wikipedia is about. A motivated reader can become an editor at any time. As for arguments involving "the readers experience", I have heard many and I am convinced that they are just rhetoric. We can not know that the absense of red links from infoboxes improves the readers' experience. Hoverfish Talk 20:16, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

I'll add that for redlink actors that could potentially develop into articles, that it would be helpful to add an embedded note on the articles that have the redlinks saying the actor's article is in draft status or recently RFD delinked as a potential draft. That way the other editors know it's being worked on. Otherwise the redlinks can be removed if no one is on it or it got removed by an AFD. Some RFD recent ones include: Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_July_4#Tess_Haubrich. See also Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_February_24 for the Dunkirk actors which were redlinked and now have articles. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:29, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

I was just a reader of Wikipedia for five or six years before becoming an editor. I can't recall a single incidence of my reading experience being impeded by a redlink. Where does this come from? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:50, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Red! It's a scary color. Maybe readers that see it will... um... Sorry, I've got nothing. --A D Monroe III (talk) 16:22, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Update guidelines

A discussion has been initiated, relevant to this guideline at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Upgrading WP:INFOCOL. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · ) 05:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Standardising map parameters in infoboxes

I'm proposing to standardise the map parameter names in infoboxes; please see, and comment at, Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Standardising map parameters in infoboxes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:09, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Images and infobox

On Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott, BWV 80, I saw two images above the infobox. What do others think? I moved one of them but was reverted. More questions in the peer review. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:03, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Giving a death date twice in infoboxes

There is an RfC pertinent to this page at Template talk:Marriage#Death. DrKay (talk) 20:15, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Deprecated or non-existent parameters

I'm pretty sure that I am right in saying that deprecated or non-existent parameters in infoboxes - the sort that flag a red warning when an article is seen in Preview - should be removed. Am I? Is there any guidance for this to which I could link? - Sitush (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Not necessarily removed: in some cases a fix is more appropriate, for example here - |years= and |events= were invalid, and |years1= and |events1= should have been used instead. Removal would have lost that information --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Yes, that makes sense, thanks, but what about, say, a parameter for "nickname" that doesn't exist at all. Obviously, such a parameter could be added to the infobox but I'm assuming consensus is that it should not be. Eg: the back-and-forth that went on here. - Sitush (talk) 09:56, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
This later edit seems relevant. There appear to be differences between the two templates. Perhaps they should be merged. --Izno (talk) 11:36, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Better yet, fix the template to not be user-hateful, and have it treat |year= as an alias of |year1= and so on, like all our saner templates do with such parameters. This should not have to be hunted down in a zillion articles when poor template coding is the obvious problem for such cases. That said, yes, often there will be easily fixable parameters from people misspelling them, just guessing at them, or from one infobox being swapped for another that doesn't have the same parameter names.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  22:33, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
That would not necessarily be useful: consider that in the related ((infobox GB station)) the |years= and |years1= parameters are distinct, and in many articles (such as Banbury railway station), both are used.
Originally, the ((infobox GB station)) and ((infobox London station)) templates both had a single pair of parameters, |years= and |events= into each of which a list would be placed. It was observed that this was not good for accessibility since all of the dates would be read out before any of the events (e.g. "1850 1900 1960 station opened renamed station closed"), and so the |years1=/|events1= through |years9=/|events9= pairs were introduced so that screen readers would announce something like "1850 station opened 1900 renamed 1960 station closed". In the case of ((infobox London station)) the |years= and |events= parameters were removed after conversion was complete, but for some reason, ((infobox GB station)) still has them and some people use them as a kind of substitute for the non-existent |years0=/|events0= pair.
I haven't looked into it, but I imagine that something similar may have happened for the ((Infobox rugby biography)) and ((Infobox rugby league biography)) templates. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 13:29, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Infobox

We need a stricter approach to infoboxes. Which articles 'should have' them & which articles 'should not'. GoodDay (talk) 14:28, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

We need no such thing. The only places where I see disputes are on biogs of classical composers, and it's already been agreed that each article needs to be considered individually, via a discussion on its own talk page. To overturn that policy would require a motion at WP:ARCA. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:52, 24 January 2018 (UTC) amended Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 13:31, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Considering the outcome of this Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#RFC: Infoboxes should be collapsable, in non-politician & non-sports bio articles. followed by the opening of this thread the OP may want to read WP:FORUMSHOPPING. While I can understand the frustration dropping the stick may be the best way to move forward. MarnetteD|Talk 17:21, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Just trying to end the disputes over the addition/removal of bio infoboxes. The article-by-article method is repetitively frustrating. GoodDay (talk) 22:24, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Well, then don't involve yourself in those discussions, and you won't be frustrated. --Jayron32 06:23, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
I sympathise with those in the front lines of the ongoing infobox wars. I concur that here perhaps isn't the place to solve those. However, would it be appropriate to consider whether guidance should be clearer about their optionality? Bondegezou (talk) 17:54, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Internal links in an infobox

Under the "Purpose of an infobox" section, there is a sentence: "Avoid links to sections within the article; the table of contents provides that function.". I have great reservations about this. In my opinion, this is a silly rule. The infobox is the Core Element of an article, much more critical than the table of contents. I for one generally don't pay a great deal of attention to the table of contents. I tend to skip the contents unless the article is very long and poorly organised.

I noticed that a lot of articles, especially those articles about a sporting tournament, have internal links to participating teams and venues etc. This manual of style has been implemented across a variety of sports articles very consistently for a long time, and no one seems to have a problem about it. So why should we enforce something that is not going to improve the overall quality of the articles?

I suggest that we abolish this "No internal links in the infobox" rule. What do your guys think? Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks. 2001:8003:8612:EA00:79E0:56E2:C488:842A (talk) 16:28, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

I think rewording it as a guideline that states a presumption against them unless they are particularly useful in context. A good example is in articles about long-running bands that have had lots of members at various times, the infobox will contain a link to the members/past members sections where an often complex history is explained in a manner that an infobox cannot do. Thryduulf (talk) 11:48, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
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