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It would be clearer and simplify navigation if the numbering of section "20.2 Findings of Fact" (in the Index at the top) corresponded directly to the numbering of the "Findings of Fact" section below. E.g. 20.2.5 Pseudoscience (at the top) is "Findings of Fact 9) " (near the bottom).
(The numbering in the "20.1 Principles" Section is OK, but the numbering from the "20.3 Remedies" Section is also non-corresponding.)
67.91.184.187 (talk) 01:37, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by My76Strat (talk) at 06:07, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
IRWolfie- (talk · contribs) filed Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Iantresman on November 9, 2012, requesting enforcement of Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Arbitration cases, an outdated page that Iantresman is not sanctioned under. Furthermore, IRWolfie cites this talk page discussion[8] as impetus for seeking WP:AE. Nothing in that discussion rises to a violation of the enacted motion. Instead IRWolfie alleges that Iantresman should be topic banned under existing provisions of the discretionary sanctions in place for the topic being discussed. Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs) and NuclearWarfare (talk · contribs) both indicate support for the topic ban. I mentioned that nothing Iantresman had done was a violation and that WP:AC/DS points 2. and 4. were clear that a warning was required first. EdJohnston (talk · contribs) then stated that since "Iantresman was a named party of the WP:ARBPS case. A party should not require a special notice that the discretionary sanctions of that case can apply to them." I am seeking a clarification to this prevailing premise. It does not follow that Iantresman should be subjected to an immediate ban without warning simply because he formerly was. Especially when no action was a direct violation of the sanction in place. I thank the committee for giving their attention to this matter. My76Strat (talk) 06:07, 11 November 2012 (UTC)1) The topic ban placed against Iantresman (talk · contribs) as a condition of unblocking in [7] is hereby lifted. In its place, Iantresman is subject to a standard 1RR restriction (no more than one revert per article per 24-hour period) on all articles covering fringe science- and physics-related topics, broadly construed, for six months. This restriction may be enforced by escalating blocks up to and including one month in length, and up to and including indefinite length after the fifth such block. When each block is lifted or expires, the six-month period shall reset. Additionally, the original topic ban shall be reinstated if Iantresman is subjected to an indefinite block as a result of this restriction. The Arbitration Committee should be notified of this situation should it occur.
@Thryduulf Your comment belies a tangential relation, actually elucidating the core of this request. Being aware of a potential for sanctions does not imply one would know they are encroaching the "event horizon". It seems intuitive that including the requirement (to warn) is a reasonable measure to alleviate this anticipation of uncertainty. Such a view is further indicative when considering the subsequent requirements that, "warnings should be clear and unambiguous", and they should "identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways". Instead of clarity, thoughtful editors are expected to accept misconduct happened without being shown where the transgression manifest. I would seriously like to know what specific action of Iantresman equivocates the crossing of an acceptable line. Was it when he asked the question, or when he offered his opinion? And if there is no right to be informed of this, failing to follow point 5, "Notices of imposed sanctions should specify the misconduct for which they have been imposed as well as the appeal process" become rather moot and seem a waste of effort to proffer. One day I suppose I'll learn my place, and quit asking questions myself. Until then, just ignore my prose, and be thankful the servers can accommodate the wasted bytes necessary to publish my babel. Regards, My76Strat (talk) 00:55, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
I see why Wikipedia loses editors, and new editors do not want to join a framework where (a) calling someone a liar is acceptable (b) discussion is criticised (c) unfounded opinions are unchallenged (d) and the most contrived associations are upheld.--Iantresman (talk) 11:15, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree with the opinions of the arbs here and the admins at arb enforcement, and I'm not sure why this was filed. Iantresman has been blocked twice before under the ARB PS sanctions and was a named party in the original case and was notified of discretionary sanctions [15].
@Iantresman I don't see the issue. This is merely for administrative and arbitration purposes regarding user conduct. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:57, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Another Plasma universe/cosmology editor, Aarghdvaark, has turned up at Talk:Dusty_plasma#Reference_restoration. He/She has argued that the book has nothing to do with the Plasma Universe fringe theory [16]. This is despite having created the original article about Peratt himself, mentioning in his/her own words that the book is about plasma cosmology [17]: "He is influential in Plasma cosmology, having written a book on the subject, Ref: Peratt, A., Physics of the Plasma Universe, Springer, 1992, ISBN 0-387-97575-6". He tried to hide this prior to commenting on the discussion [18]. Can this editor be officially warned about the discretionary sanctions as well? Cheers, IRWolfie- (talk) 17:49, 11 November 2012 (UTC) I will inform the editor of this comment. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:49, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
@Iantresman, Strat's request here was to clarify the issue any issue with the notification, and whether there was any issue with discretionary sanctions scope. We aren't here to re-discuss what has already been closed at Arbitration enforcement, This isn't an appeal of the arbitration enforcement decision. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:26, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
I just realized that I made a couple mistakes in the part of my reasoning in the AE thread that dealt with whether plasma cosmology is within WP:ARBPS: I overlooked the possibility that the 2006 arbcom may have meant for the category membership to be determined by reference to the present state of the article rather than the article at the time of the decision, and I also overlooked the fact that Category:Fringe subjects without critical scientific evaluation was not made a subcategory of Category:Pseudoscience until January 2007. Happily, however, those mistakes did not affect my conclusion.
From the phrasing of WP:ARBPS#Tommysun banned, it is clear that the arbcom that decided the case originally on 3 December 2006 intended the term to cover the subject of all articles in Category:Pseudoscience and its subcategories, and I see no indication that the arbcom that passed the discretionary sanctions in 2008 intended to limit the definition. It is unclear whether the 2006 arbcom is referring to the article at the time of the original arbcom decision or at the time of the AE request, but this question is immaterial to this case. At the time of the decision the article was in Category:Protoscience, which was, at that time, a subcategory of Category:Pseudoscience. Currently, the article is in Category:Fringe physics, which is a subcategory of Category:Pseudophysics, which is itself a subcategory of Category:Pseudoscience. Therefore, regardless of whether membership in the pseudoscience category or its subcategories is to be measured at the time of the original decision or at the time of the AE request, plasma cosmology plainly falls within that group.
As to the merits, I found the diffs provided by IRWolfie- and Enric Naval in the AE thread to be quite persuasive. I think the misconduct sufficiently obvious that I will not elaborate on my reasoning further unless requested by the committee.
That said, I wouldn't object to expanding discretionary sanctions to cover fringe science as well as pseudoscience, as the boundary of "pseudoscience" is rather ill-defined, and this invites wikilawyering over whether something is "pseudoscience" or merely "fringe". T. Canens (talk) 14:45, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Also, many people understandably take offense that their beliefs have been labeled as "pseudoscience", a term that has more derogatory connotations than "fringe science", and I think that also increases people's tendency to dispute whether the "pseudoscience" label applies to their favored theory. I think it's best if we can avoid causing unnecessary offense in resolving a purely jurisdictional matter, as whether a particular viewpoint is pseudoscientific or merely fringe generally does not affect the merits analysis. T. Canens (talk) 20:58, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
The point I'm making is that the topic unambiguously covers this subject, even on a very cramped reading of the scope of the topic (notice how I didn't comment on the "broadly construed" in the discretionary sanctions? Or the "but not limited to" in the 2006 decision?). Arguing about whether something should be in the category or a subcategory is neither here nor there. If it's in the category or a subcategory, it's covered by the discretionary sanctions. And I think you are being entirely disingenuous: you must know that plasma cosmology is within the scope of the case, not the least because, as several people pointed out, editing related to plasma cosmology is a large part of what led to the original arbitration case - which you, Iantresman, filed.
Thryduulf, you make some good points, all of which are inapplicable in this case. Iantresman was banned from this area until something like a week ago when he managed to get arbcom to lift it on a 7-4 vote. This isn't your hypothetical editor who edited in the area four years ago, got a notice and then never touched the area again until recently, nor someone who has been surprised by an unexpectedly broad reading of the reach of discretionary sanctions. I gave the topic the most technical and cramped reading I can without doing violence to the meaning of the original decision, and the subject he was editing still fits comfortably within it. T. Canens (talk) 01:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
This is possibly tangential to this case, but I think it important that the interaction between warnings and "broadly interpreted" is entirely fair. By this I mean that where a topic is subject to sanction (either generally or for a specific editor) but a reasonable person acting in good faith may not be aware of this, even if they are aware of the general case, then they should not be subject to more than a warning. For example, if a user is aware that discretionary sanctions are authorised for topic X, but they are not aware that article Y falls within this topic, then they should be warned of this before any action is taken against them for breaching the sanctions, especially if there was debate about whether the article was within the topic area or not. If the debate was consequential to (or even just post-dated) the actions of the user concerned should not be sanctioned for their edits ex post facto without clear evidence of bad faith.
Equally, consideration must be given to the age of warnings. Editors are human, and as such have imperfect memories. If a user was made aware of the existence of e.g. discretionary sanctions several years ago, and they have not been involved with the topic area since then, then it should not be held that they are automatically aware of the continued existence of sanctions. Other evidence may of course show they are aware, but the existence of an ancient warning on an archived (user) talk page does not indicate awareness on its own. Thryduulf (talk) 23:44, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Regarding the book "Physics of the Plasma Universe" by Anthony Perrat, I did not read the book but originally wrote in the article on Perrat that it was a book on plasma cosmology. That seemed a reasonable pigeon hole for it then. Recently I followed the discussion at Talk:Dusty plasma#Reference restoration and my conclusion from that discussion was that the book was not about plasma cosmology but was a text book on plasma. As John Maynard Keynes said: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" So I changed the article to say the book was a text book on plasmas (N.B. Perrat is not a fringe scientist on plasma, in fact he is a distinguished scientist).
The reason I changed my mind was based wholly on the discussion at Dusty plasma. Iantresman had put forward a proposal, or hypothesis actually, that the book was a text book on plasma and not a book on plasma cosmology. Following the scientific method, this hypothesis should be trivial to disprove - it is a published book after all, and furthermore has recently been republished by Springer, a major scientific publishing house. All it needed was some quotes from the book. However, these were not forthcoming. The discussion soon veered off into a discussion on cold fusion. I'm surprised that Wikipedia editors thought these arguments by analogy or Google were good enough, but they cannot be considered reliable sources to establish what a book is about. So Iantresman's hypothesis has been tested and has not been disproved. Ergo, the book is a text book on plasma and is not about plasma cosmology, and that stands until it is disproved.
Iantresman provided some sources to back up his hypothesis, but no sources were provided by editors arguing the counter-hypothesis that the book was about plasma cosmology. Since no direct quotes were provided by the editors arguing against Iantresman, he asked for a source saying the book was on plasma cosmology - and got accused of wikilawyering! This is Kafka-esque: editors with clear POVs, and who refuse to back up their arguments with reliable sources have managed to get an editor banned who has been consistently civil and provided sources. Rather than being banned I think Iantrsman should be commended for how he has conducted himself at Talk:Dusty plasma#Reference restoration.
Extracts from the Dusty plasma talk page showing POV bias against the book's author Peratt:
Iantresman took this issue to Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources#Academic textbook assessment as a reliable source where he argued that the book is fringe, but how could he show it was fringe. This seems to have confused some people, some appearing to think that this indicates Iantresman believes the book is about plasma cosmology and therefore he lied, including ironically The Devil's Advocate! I rather think he was trying to do the work of the editors at Talk:Dusty plasma#Reference restoration and showed good faith, if poor judgement.
I would also like to clarify the position of plasma cosmology in plasma physics. It is non-mainstream science now, but previously had support by some plasma physicists. There is nothing unscientific about it (being out-of-date does not mean something automatically becomes pseudo-science). The people who know about plasma are plasma physicists, so it is not surprising that there is considerable cross-over between people who support or supported plasma cosmology and current and previous work on plasma. Trying to expunge the record of the contributions of these people is I believe something which is against the ideals of Wikipedia.
I think the book "Physics of the Plasma Universe" should be allowed as a source for Dusty plasma, as the argument against it has not succeeded on rational grounds but rather by getting Iantresman banned. And on the evidence of the discussion at Talk:Dusty plasma#Reference restoration I think it was perverse banning Iantresman for his contributions to the discussion. Aarghdvaark (talk) 04:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
@Enric Naval - have a look at Hannes Alfvén. It says there: "A study of how a number of the most used textbooks in astrophysics treat important concepts such as double layers, critical velocity, pinch effects, and circuits is made. It is found that students using these textbooks remain essentially ignorant of even the existence of these concepts, despite the fact that some of them have been well known for half a century (e.g, double layers, Langmuir, 1929; pinch effect, Bennet, 1934)". This is presumably why Peratt included those topics in his book, and he seems to have been vindicated because the book is being republished. As regards your question on the relationship between astrophysical plasma and plasma cosmology, a lot of current day astrophysical plasma theory (e.g. our understanding of the aurora) comes from the people who did plasma cosmology, so actually astrophysical plasma is a subset of plasma cosmology - but of course that particular historical fork has been air-brushed from history as being much too embarrassing! Aarghdvaark (talk) 08:57, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
@Enric Naval - p.s. the section Astrophysical plasma#History only talks about Birkeland and Alfven, so point proved I suppose. There was also Sydney Chapman (mathematician), but his theories were found to be incorrect in the end. Aarghdvaark (talk) 09:02, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
@Aarghdvaark. Iantresman himself gives the most damning evidence: "*Go and find yourself a book on "Astrophysical plasmas"; I doubt very much you will find mention of "double layers", "Critical ionization velocity", "Birkeland currents", and "Plasma circuits", let alone any discussion of their application to astronomy."[19]. Out of 4 topics mentioned, 3 appear in the index content of the book. So, according to Iantresman's own definition, this is not a book on astrophysical plasma.
Iantresman again treating "plasma universe" as a synonim of "plasma cosmology". Bonus points for mentioning the book and its author in the same comment. "Peratt is not only an accomplished scientist,[20] but also a leader in the field of Plasma cosmology (Plasma Universe)[21], his academic book, Physics of the Plasma Universe has been reviewd in (...)"[22]
(By the way, Astrophysical plasma doesn't mention plasma cosmology anywhere, it only cites Alvén for his less-fringe work. The relationship to plasma cosmology should be explained.) --Enric Naval (talk) 16:31, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Existing discretionary sanction remedies that this motion will deprecate may be stricken through and marked as redundant in the usual manner. Enforcement should now be sought under Pseudoscience, rather than under previous decisions concerning sub-topics of pseudoscience, but previous or existing sanctions or enforcement actions are not affected by this motion.
Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Modification of procedures states: "Significant or substantive modifications of the Arbitration Committee's procedures shall be made by way of formal motions on the Committee's public motions page; shall be announced on the Committee's noticeboard and the administrator's noticeboard by the clerks when first proposed; and shall remain open for at least 24 hours after those announcements are made." I think modifying an "area of conflict" qualifies as "significant or substantive modifications" and believe the prescribed steps should be followed as outlined. My76Strat (talk) 23:04, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This request is about the following template found on many talk pages for articles and lists related to pseudoscience: Brangifer (talk) 06:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Initiated by IRWolfie- (talk) at 13:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
This banner is being used on article talk pages [26] to imply that the arbitration committee has made rulings about content; i.e that the arbitration committee makes content decisions. Personally I was of the opinion that these were not rulings and not guidelines, merely foundational statements indicating some principals but with no binding or weight attached to them with respect to content decisions.
Examples of usage:
Can ArbCom clarify what their 2006 principles are meant to indicate and whether they establish or merely align with (in 2006 anyway) content policy and guidelines i.e Are ArbCom making content decisions despite this being out of scope (Scope of Arbitration: "it will not make editorial statements or decisions about how articles should read ("content decisions"),"), and have they in the past?
Depending on the response, ArbCom may wish to remove wording which implies content decisions, particularly with respect to the specific examples. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
@Barney, who/what are you quoting when you say: "not discussing individual content". ArbCom can make no content rules at all whether for individual cases or not, IRWolfie- (talk) 21:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
@SteveMcCluskey, the specific articles you describe, such as astrology and parapsychology do receive advocates who attempt to push their views. For example on the astrology article there was an extremely large amount of disruption during a period ranging from last year to 2 years ago Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive681#Astrology.2C_fringe_POV_pushing.2C_meat-puppetry_and_general_disruptionWikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive222#Astrology_banningsWikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive99#Ludwigs2 Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive118#Zachariel. Calling the main articles of very notable pseudoscience topics, which have many related derivative articles (at least ~500 astrology articles) and their own wikiprojects "ancillary" seems a bit strange, IRWolfie- (talk) 12:54, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure what to make of this request because there are two separate, though related issues at the article in question, List of topics characterized as pseudoscience.
A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
I have no problem with the template outlining the ArbCom decision about how to deal with pseudoscience. While in the end it is the community which makes decisions, we have chosen to use the ArbCom to step in when intractable problems arise, and it's best to abide by their decision. In this case it involved a type of content decision, but one that does not override RS. Their decision was more of a method for preventing the chaos and abuse which was a serious problem at the time, than a content decision. Using the four groupings for encyclopedic format is actually very wise and avoids problems. While the four groups aren't strictly "demarcations" in the Demarcation problem sense, they are very closely related to it. For practical "encyclopedic format" purposes we can still use them for "categorization" or "no categorization" because RS is another matter entirely. We must use RS for ALL content anyway, regardless of group.
One thing really cool about the template is how it stopped the chaos which reigned before the decision. If we stop following that advice, we ruin the delicate balance which has existed for several years, and open the Pandora's box which ArbCom closed and unleash some awful times of disruption. "If it's not broken, don't fix it," and it's not really broken, when we understand the purpose of the template and the ArbCom decision.
I understand how the itch (to categorically state that some nonsense "is" pseudoscience) demands to be scratched (I feel it too... ), but I think we need to resist that urge except in clear cases where the RS are clearly and dominantly of that opinion. We can still satisfy that itch for certain types of clear nonsense using groupings 1 & 2. Otherwise we can still document what RS say, including mentioning that some sources consider a subject to be pseudoscience, without including the article in Category:Pseudoscience. The ArbCom decision (group 3) still allows for that. Group 4 prevents the abuse by pushers of pseudoscience (pseudoskeptics) who insist on trying to sneak their fringe POV into mainstream articles about well established science. Group 4 prevents them from adding their fringe POV that a mainstream science subject is pseudoscience when it clearly is not.
So I support use of the template on relevant articles and lists, as well as following the good ArbCom decision. It's value has been proven now for several years. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
((ArbComPseudoscience)) produces this:
![]() | The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to pseudoscience and fringe science, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision was as follows:
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You are all welcome to go to the talk page where we can seek further improvement. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:44, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
SteveMcCluskey, I fear you fail to understand the purpose of the template. It is a guide for editors, and for those who come to those articles to push a fringe POV it can serve as a heads up. That happens quite often. If you will read my edit summaries, you will see that the talk pages where I placed the template are articles which are main articles for subjects in Category:Pseudoscience or main articles for some of its subcategories. It has nothing to do with whether an article is favorable toward or advocates pseudoscientific ideas, only that it is closely related to them, closely enough that the articles have been placed under the PSI category tree. If they should be removed from the category, deal with that in the appropriate place, not here.
You mention Astrology and Parapsychology as if I shouldn't have placed the template there, but those are classic examples of pseudoscience, and are correctly placed in the PSI category. If the template belongs anywhere, it's there, and your objection proves my point. ArbCom even used astrology as an example of something "Generally considered pseudoscience" - "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." ArbCom thought it was a good idea, and the community has totally accepted their good judgment in the matter.
If I went too far in some cases, it is only because an article is possibly miscategorized, and that's not my fault. I was not indiscriminately spamming the template. I have acted in complete good faith. As I explained at Talk:Flat Earth, categorization might be the issue there, but we also know that belief in a flat earth is a pseudoscientific idea. We know that the category tree structure is at times confusing and inconsistently applied, so this could be an issue, and it should be discussed there, not here. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:32, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
The Arbitration Committee has permitted administrators to impose discretionary sanctions (information on which is at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions) on any editor who is active on pages broadly related to pseudoscience and fringe science. Discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, satisfy any standard of behavior, or follow any normal editorial process. If you continue to misconduct yourself on pages relating to this topic, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban. The Committee's full decision can be read at the "Final decision" section of the decision page.
Please familiarise yourself with the information page at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions, with the appropriate sections of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures, and with the case decision page before making any further edits to the pages in question. This notice is given by an uninvolved administrator and will be logged on the case decision, pursuant to the conditions of the Arbitration Committee's discretionary sanctions system.
One comment: in the template, the link "several rulings" is very outdated. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
I agree that with SteveMcCluskey that the template should only be in articles where there have been problems. Otherwise, it looks like we are trying to dictate how editing should be done. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:06, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
@Risker -- you're correct. The internet has trained folks not to read banners banners are invisible NE Ent 02:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
I am a bit disturbed that in the past few days this template has been applied to many articles that discuss pseudoscientific beliefs in an objective, historical, fashion without any advocacy for these beliefs. I came across this problem at the article Flat Earth but soon found that User:BullRangifer is applying it broadly to a large number of solid, historically based, articles, among them Astrology, Parapsychology, and many others.
The focus of Wikipedia's concern with pseudoscience is with the advocacy of marginal (often original) scientific theories. On the other hand, objective discussions of pseudoscientific beliefs have had a long tradition of being allowed in Wikipedia, ever since Jimmy Wales's comment, which is still quoted in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, that: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research" (my emphasis).
Such ancillary articles have a legitimate place in Wikipedia and should not be arbitrarily labeled as being under discretionary sanctions, as the template does. This is especially the case since discretionary sanctions are only to be exercised under limited circumstances. In particular, the ArbCom Procedures for discretionary sanctions specify that:
I recommend that either this template be disapproved or that the ArbCom provide appropriate guidelines as to when and where it should be used. In particular, it seems to have no place in objective, historical discussions of pseudoscientific practices. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 03:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
There has been considerable discussion about the phrase "if you continue to misconduct yourself"
in the discretionary sanctions template. People have understandably resented having that phrase applied to them, and for me it's always been a reason why I feel unable to use the template to simply warn somebody that there are discretionary sanctions for an article they've edited. Surely a mere warning doesn't have to be so accusatory? I was quite surprised to see the words "continue to" still in there after all the discontent voiced, and even in the putatively milder (?) version quoted above. FGS get rid of those two words. It would improve the template 100%, and make it possible to post it even on people we don't particularly want to scold and antagonize. Even better if we also get rid of the strangely stilted and heavy-Victorian-parent-sounding locution "misconduct yourself". How about "If you edit inappropriately on pages relating to this topic, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks" etc etc
? Bishonen | talk 20:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC).
Nevertheless, it is clear to me that the principles in our decisions can be helpful reminders of the policies that are particularly relevant to certain topic areas, even when the remedies and findings of fact have long since become irrelevant. I therefore have no objection to them being cited in a general reminder notice such as the one referred to in this clarification request. The reminder notice seems acceptable to me, and does not seem like it implies this committee has "ruled on content" in the area of pseudoscience. At most, the notice could be qualified by changing the first sentence so it reads "issued several rulings (which may be helpful to editors of this article)" – thus making clear that the principles are not enforceable pieces of quasi-policy. AGK [•] 13:07, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
I just have a question and since I am only recently aware of these DS, I hope the ARBCOM can forgive my newbie question.
These sanctions are based on disruptive behavior, like edit-warring or 3R, right? So, DS would apply equally to anyone who is disruptive on articles judged to be "pseudoscience" or "fringe", correct? Because ARBCOM typically doesn't arbitrate content disputes and silence people with particular viewpoints, ARBCOM's aim to allow and encourage Wikipedia to operate free of rancor and bad behavior.
Yes, I've read all of the principles posted above and, no, I'm not arguing for an "everything goes", no standards guide for Wikipedia. I'm just asking about whether Discretionary Sanctions are applied to disruptive Editors on all sides of the pseudoscience dispute area or were they intended to just target Editors who held particular points of view.
Thank you for considering my question. And, for any page lurkers, I'll take an arbitrator's interpretation of the DS as being authoritative, not my own or any other Editor's. Peace. Liz Read! Talk! 20:20, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Pursuant to a formal warning I received yesterday from Sandstein, regarding some comments I made at AE in this recently closed case, my name is now listed amongst the warned users here. I made no edits to any article within the subjects that were part of the AE discussion, I stepped in at AE and chose to say something to a person about my view of their behavior. Sandstein immediately sends me this I asked Sandstein to retract the warning and he stated that he would not, and various drama thereinafter ensued. I am not here to discuss who was right or wrong in the broader scheme of wiki-land (that could be debated endlessly, no doubt). I AM here to request clarification for all as to whether Sandstein's warning fell within the purview of this RfA in the first place. I also seek this clarification so as to avoid personally stepping into a minefield like this again. (I was unaware this particular RfA and discretionary sanctions even existed until Sandstein's post yesterday) If his warning to me exceeded the purview of this RfA, then I wish it to be stricken from the RfA page. If it doesn't, I am unclear what this "warning" means... do I just have a "demerit" for a minor infraction or what? In either event, I also have a recommendation for future situations of a similar nature. Montanabw(talk) 19:37, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
I believe my actions fall outside the purview of this RfA for the following reasons: Montanabw(talk) 19:37, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
"15) Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more." Discussion? Paradoctor (talk) 06:33, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
First problem, with the start of the definition the statement "Theories which, while purporting to be scientific" implies that there is a claim within the theory itself that the theory is scientific even though that may not be the case. What if, nowhere in a given theory in question is found any claim that the theory itself is scientific? It does not seem fair or accurate to assign a label to a theory as purporting to be scientific just because it appears so from some point of view of some individual viewing the theory. Using appearance as a means for determining the property of pseudoscience is an inherently flawed methodology because doing so makes the error of using an empirical term 'appearance' to describe a non-empirical entity 'theory.'
Second problem, in the definition where theories are referred to as "obviously bogus," I would contend that the term 'bogus' is a weasel word especially when referring to something as complex as a theory. If, as pointed out in the above first problem, theories are not empirically verifiable objects (such as for instance an individual body part of a mammal that has the label 'pseudopod') how can a specific definition be made of 'bogus,' that does not utilize the emotional reactions of the skeptical set to given theory, that can be made part of an algorithm to determine bogusness of any given theory? Quarky Gluon (talk) 05:10, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Dermo-optical perception is not pseudoscience since it is not considered as pseudoscience by mainstream scientifical community. Only some skeptical sources (like RANDI) consider Dermo-optical perception as pseudoscience, according to NeutralPOV only some skeptical sources can't define contents on wikipedia. Dermo-optical perception isn't included in the list of topics characterized as pseudoscience. Actually mainstream scientists are studying this phenomenon and have positive results like Larner (2006) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16887762 and Brugger et Weiss (2008) http://www.zora.uzh.ch/9087/1/Brugger_Weiss_J_History_of_the_NSCci_17_2008-1_V.pdf. Formulation like "baseless paranormal claims" are absolutely not neutral and outdated if we look at the source (1996).Thundergodz (talk) 01:21, 14 June 2014 (UTC)