WikiProject iconCollege football Project‑class
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject College football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of college football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
ProjectThis page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

Junior college national champions[edit]

Junior college (Juco) football teams almost never receive the SIGCOV needed to pass muster under WP:GNG. Juco national champions appear to be an exception where sufficient SIGCOV can sometimes be found. We now have a template of Juco national champions in case anyone is interested in doing work in this area:

Cbl62 (talk) 03:54, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kadyn Proctor (and future players doing the same shit)[edit]

Hi everyone. As perhaps you know, the MF Kadyn Proctor just re-entered to the transfer portal and returned to Alabama. He was officially enrolled with the Hawkeyes, but... should we add Iowa to his Infobox? I mean, this isn't like the NFL, where players can be members of teams only in the preseason, in CFB there's no preseason.

I think is better not show it in the Infobox, it'd be weird if it is displayed:


Perhaps it's only me, but I prefer just show:

It is more clear, specially because he does not even play a snap with Iowa (just went to make more money, but that ain't the matter).

Additionally, the transfer portal is out of control, too many players are transferring multiple times in the same offseason. What's the next? (e.g.)

IMO, if they don't play a game with any team, it shouldn't be displayed in the Infobox. Sergio Skol (talk) 18:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say if they aren't on the team for any games/any part of a season, it shouldn't be listed in the infobox. glman (talk) 18:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Marcus Dupree is listed as going to Oklahoma and not his later transfered school (USM).-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All-Americans: missing articles[edit]

As part of my series on developing redlink lists for likely notable football players (see 1 2 3 4 5 6), I wondered how many selections to the College Football All-America Team are missing articles. It seems only 1889-1895, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2020 are complete. In case anyone wants to work on any, here's what I've got, based on each All-America article (will periodically update over the next few days). Note that I'm only including first-team selections as those are most likely to be notable; I'm also bolding any who were mutltiple-year first-team choices, and italicizing those who were first-team choices by multiple selectors:

  • 1896:
    • Edward Crowdis - Princeton - G
    • Shaw - Harvard - G
  • 1897:
    • John Babcock Moulton - Harvard - E
    • George Winthrop Bouve - Harvard - G
    • George Cadwalader - Yale - C
    • George Young - Cornell - QB
    • Powell Wheeler - Princeton - FB
  • 1898:
    • N. T. Folwell - Penn - E
    • Francis Douglas Cochrane - Harvard - E
    • Leicester Warren - Harvard - HB
  • 1899:
    • H. Wheeler - Princeton - FB
    • Edward G. Bray - Lafayette - HB
  • 1900:
    • Sherman L. Coy - Yale - E
    • James Lawrence - Harvard - T
  • 1901:
    • Charles Sprague Sargent - Harvard - C
    • Marshall S. Reynolds - Penn - HB
  • 1902:
    • Harold Metcalf - Yale - HB
    • Morgan H. Bowman - Yale - FB
  • 1903:
    • Alfred Brewster - Cornell - QB
    • Harold Metcalf - Yale - HB
  • 1904:
    • Chester T. Neal - Yale - E
    • Thomas W. Hammond - Army - E
    • James Bush - Wisconsin - E
    • Short - Princeton - G
    • Walton W. Thorp - Minnesota - G
    • Clint Roraback - Yale - C
    • John M. Haselwood - Illinois - C
    • Lydig Hoyt - Yale - HB
    • Marshall Reynolds - Penn - HB
    • W. C. Leavenworth - Yale - HB
    • Walter L. Foulke - Princeton - HB
  • 1905:
    • F. Hobson - Penn - G
    • David Main - Dartmouth - HB
    • A. Rex Flinn - Yale - FB
  • 1906:
    • Bartol Parker - Harvard - C
  • 1907:
    • Charles H. Watson - Cornell - E
    • Edwin J. Donnelly - Trinity - T
    • W. J. Phillips - Princeton - C
    • Edward L. McCallie - Cornell - HB
    • John Glaze - Dartmouth - HB
  • 1908:
    • Claude Fisher - Syracuse - E
    • George Kennedy - Dartmouth - E
    • Gilbert Goodwin Browne - Harvard - E
    • Rudolph Siegling - Princeton - T
    • Samuel Hoar - Harvard - G
    • Orlo L. Waugh - Syracuse - G
    • Edward Rich - Dartmouth - G
    • Ernest Frederocl Ver Wiebe - Harvard - HB
  • 1909:
    • Lawrence Dunlap Smith - Harvard - E
  • 1910:
    • Lawrence Dunlap Smith - Harvard - E
    • Richard Plimpton Lewis - Harvard - E
    • Edward J. Daly - Dartmouth - E
    • Springer H. Brooks - Yale - E
    • Tom Piollet - Penn State - E
    • James W. "Jim" Scully - Yale - T
    • Lothrop "Ted" Withington - Harvard - T
    • Ralph W. "Bud" Sherwin - Dartmouth - T
    • Homer Dutter - Illinois - T
    • Rudy Probst - Syracuse - T
    • Joseph L. Wier - West Point - G
    • T. S. Wilson - Princeton - G
    • Glenn D. Butzer - Illinois - G
    • Effingham Morris - Yale - C
    • Ralph Galvin - Pittsburgh - C
    • John Twist - Illinois - C
    • Harry Hartman - Syracuse - C
    • Forsman - Lafayette - C
    • James Scott - Penn - QB
    • Schef - Illinois - QB
    • V. Ballou - Princeton - QB
    • James Dean - Wisconsin - QB
    • G. H. Fletcher - Purdue - QB
    • Fred "Tex" Ramsdell - Penn - HB
    • John Rosenwald - Minnesota - HB
    • William Crawley - Chicago - HB
    • Reuben Johnson - Minnesota HB
  • 1911:
    • Lawrence Dunlap Smith - Harvard - E
    • Edward J. Daly - Dartmouth - E
    • A. Harry Kallett - Syracuse - E
    • Chauncey Oliver - Illinois - E
    • Sampson Burd - Carlisle - E
    • Jim Scully - Yale - T
    • Leonard Frank - Minnesota - T
    • William Edward Munk - Cornell - T
    • Sylvester V. Shonka - Nebraska - T
    • Greig - Swarthmore - T
    • Rudy Probst - Syracuse - T
    • Charles J. Robinson - Minnesota - G
    • Ray Wakeman - Navy - G
    • George Howe - Navy - G
    • Horace Scruby - Chicago - G
    • Pomeroy T. Francis - Yale - G
    • Willis "Fat" O'Brien - Iowa - C
    • John "Keckie" Moll - Wisconsin - QB
    • Preston Doane Fogg - Syracuse - QB
    • Reuben Martin Rosenwald - Minnesota - HB
    • Walter Camp Jr. - Yale - HB (yes, the son of that Walter Camp)
    • Clark Sauer - Chicago - HB
    • Jesse Philbin - Yale - FB
    • Stancil "Possum" Powell - Carlisle - FB
    • Wallace De Witt - Princeton - FB
  • 1912:
    • K. P. Gilchrist - Navy - E
    • Francis Joseph O'Brien - Harvard - E
    • Phillips - Princeton - T
    • Rip Shenk - Princeton - G
    • Ray L. Bennett - Dartmouth - G
    • Carroll T. Cooney - Yale - G
    • George T. Howe - Navy - G
    • Gerard Timothy Driscoll - Harvard - G
    • Howard L. Benson - Lafayette - C
    • Henry Burchell Gardner - Harvard - QB
    • Wallace "Butch" De Witt - Princeton - HB
  • 1913:
    • W. H. Fritz - Cornell - E
    • Benjamin F. Avery - Yale - E
    • Francis Joseph O'Brien - Harvard - E
    • John S. Pendleton - Yale - G
    • Jimmie Munns - Cornell - G
    • William Marting - Yale - C
    • Pete Garlow - Carlisle - C
    • Walter Simpson - Penn - C
    • Paul Russell - Chicago - QB
  • 1914:
    • Red Brann - Yale - E
    • Reginald Bovill - Washington & Jefferson - E
    • Edwin Stavrum - Wisconsin - E
    • Pete Maxfield - Lafayette - T
    • Will Burton - Kansas - T
    • Wilbur Shenk - Princeton - G
    • Harry Routh - Purdue - G
    • Boles Rosenthal - Minnesota - C
    • Willard Cool - Cornell - C
    • Alexander D. Wilson - Yale - QB
    • Malcolm Justin Logan - Harvard - QB
    • William H. Tow - Amherst - QB
    • Paul Russell - Chicago - QB
    • Sammy Gross - Iowa - QB
    • Wilbur Hightower - Northwestern - QB
    • Louis E. Pickerel - Ohio State - QB
    • Andrew Toolan - Williams - HB
    • Dick Rutherford - Nebraska - HB
    • Marcus Wilkinson - Syracuse - HB
    • Carroll Knowles - Yale - HB
    • Moore - Princeton - HB
    • Gray - Chicago - HB
    • Carl Philippi - Cornell - FB
    • Campbell "Honus" Graf - Ohio State - FB
  • 1915:
    • Jack "Red" Lamberton - Princeton - E
    • Ernest William Soucy - Harvard - E
    • Maurice M. Witherspoon - Washington & Jefferson - T
    • Nelson "Pie" Way - Yale - T
    • Dave Tibbott - Princeton - HB
    • Red Wilkinson - Syracuse - HB
    • Anderson - Colgate - HB
    • Edward H. Driggs - Princeton - FB
  • 1916:
    • Richard Harte - Harvard - E
    • Charles Highley - Princeton - E
    • William Lippard McLean - Princeton - T
    • DeVitalis - Brown - T
    • Louis Seagrave - Washington - T
    • Walter Herber Wheeler - Harvard - T
    • Lawrence Fox - Yale - G
    • Charles Henning - Penn - G
    • Christopher Schlachter - Syracuse - G
    • Alfred Gennert - Princeton - C
    • Claire Long - Minnesota - HB

BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oregon Webfoots vs. Oregon Ducks[edit]

Team articles from 1940 Oregon Ducks football team to 1977 Oregon Ducks football team have just been changed from "Webfoots" to "Ducks" by @User:Carrite.

I'm not sure what the correct team name is for each year, but would like to see some discussion and sources on the move.

PK-WIKI (talk) 17:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrally as a point of reference; the program's media guide from 1976 uses only "Ducks" when referring to the team (here, see for example the Outlook article on page 3). Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The 1963 NCAA records book lists them as the Ducks. PK-WIKI (talk) 01:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1956 NCAA College Division football season[edit]

This article starts with the statement: "The 1956 NCAA College Division football season saw the NCAA split member schools into two divisions" (a reference to NCAA University Division and NCAA College Division). Is that really true? While the University vs. College split clearly existed in basketball, yielding two tournaments in the spring of 1957, I'm not seeing anything in contemporary newspaper articles that indicates the NCAA "split member schools" in football for the 1956 fall season. NCAA football records (here) make only passing references to College Division, such as "For what was then known as College Division teams" in speaking of the pre-Division II era (here, page 63). Clearly, there was a distinction between major-college and small-college programs, but I'm not seeing sourcing that indicates an "NCAA College Division" (especially as a proper name) existed for the 1956 college football season. Input welcome, especially from editors who may be familiar with this era. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "College Division" concept was originally created, as I recall, as a mechanism to divide the NCAA basketball tournament between higher and lower level programs. The concept did not expand to football until at least a couple years later. Cbl62 (talk) 22:03, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Prior discussion at User talk:Jweiss11/Archives/2020#University/College Division season articles. We dropped the ball in fixing the error back then, but we should do so now. I continue to believe that the 1956 and 1957 "College Division" articles should be merged back into the general 1956 and 1957 general college football season articles. Cbl62 (talk) 22:10, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Starting with UPI for the 1958 season, and joined by AP beginning with the 1960 season, there were "small college" polls (as documented in 1958 small college football rankings, and later). But I do not see that the NCAA recognized "Small College" as an official designation or that it existed as a proper name (in a football context), in the way that Division II and Division III did from 1973 onward. I'd be happy to help with any cleanup efforts; guidance / direction welcome. Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's been about four years since the prior discussion, but I thought it was arguable starting at some point that there was an NCAA "College Division" through the 1960s. But what I recall being very clear is that there was no such thing as 1956 NCAA College Division football season or 1957 NCAA College Division football season. At a minimum, those two should be deleted and/or redirected. Cbl62 (talk) 22:26, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An even earlier discussion on the matter in 2009 found sourcing (e.g., this, this, this, this) for separate "University" and "College Divisions" from 1962 forward. See early discussion here: User talk:Jweiss11/Archives/2019#College Division. Thus, it is pre-1962 "College Division" articles that are most problematic and appear to be consist of WP:OR. Cbl62 (talk) 22:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks—these are helpful, but do not indicate if or when a College Division in football was formally created by the NCAA, leaving us with the distinct possibility it was a term of convenience for media and statistics. Within those cited sources: this source from 1963 uses "college division" in the lower case and speaks of the "so-called university division" (if it formally existed, it wouldn't be "so-called"); this source from 1966 speaks only of a university division in basketball and states that "major" football programs are designated by the Football Writers Association of America; and this source from 1969 makes an extremely dubious statement that college and university divisions were created "33 years ago", which would be 1936. More review is needed, which I'll try to do over the next few days.... Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reference to "33 years ago" is to the time period in the 1930s when the NCAA Service Bureau began issuing separate statistics for "major college" and "small college" programs. This small/major distinction had the official imprimatur of the NCAA. The Service Bureau continued to publish these separate "major" and "small" college stats for decades. Cbl62 (talk) 06:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that helps. It seems the writer of the 1969 article (this one) confused the longer-standing statistical differentiation with the more-recent divisions. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Approximately 110 college football teams, which play most of their games against each other, are classified as "major-college" teams. They represent the field of so-called "big time" college football as judged by class of competition rather than seasonal strength. The football teams of all other four-year colleges and universities compromise the "small-college" field. An official list is issued annually by the Football Writers' Association of America, the official classifying authority.
I unfortunately don't have any of the records books from the 1950s to check, maybe another editor here does.
PK-WIKI (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "small college" vs "major college" distinction is something different from the "University Division" and "College Division". The major/small college distinction dates back to, I think, the late 1930s with the NCAA keeping separate statistics for small college and major college players. Cbl62 (talk) 23:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, in that case the 1961 NCAA book continues the "Major & Small" statistics sections, and has a single "1961 NCAA-Member Schedules" section. I don't have a copy of the 1962 book. The 1963 book still has Major & Small statistics, but then "1963 University Division Schedules and Records" and "1963 College Division Schedules and Records". The next book I have is 1966, which now has "Major College Statistics" and "College Division Statistics", then separate University & College Schedules and Records sections. PK-WIKI (talk) 00:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral question — were those books published by the NCAA, or by another entity about NCAA football? Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Published by the NCAA; the "Official Collegiate Football Record Book". Here is the 1963 guide cover and publisher page but without all of the content. I uploaded the covers and national championship pages from many of these books to the table at College football national championships. PK-WIKI (talk) 00:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dmoore5556 and Cbl62, thanks for bringing this up. This has been in the back of my mind to return to for a while. I think what you are proposing is that we merge 1956 NCAA College Division football season and 1956 NCAA University Division football season into one article and the like for 1957, at least. What do we do with 1956 NAIA football season? Leave it alone? If so, is the target of the merge 1956 NCAA football season? Or do we merge all three articles into 1956 college football season? The latter merge of all three articles into one will induce a cfb link call crisis. We still have such crises on many season articles from late 1920s thru 1955. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I am more comfortable with renaming 1956 NCAA College Division football season as 1956 small college football season, and continuing such naming through whatever seasons are not well-sourced as having been conducted under College Division naming. (I prefer how Template:NCAA football rankings navbox names seasons.) I have more digging to do, but it unclear that College Division was ever formally defined by the NCAA, other than basketball. If may be justified via WP:COMMONNAME, but certainly not for the 1956 and 1957 seasons. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dmoore5556, note that articles like 1958 small college football rankings reflect the most common naming of these rankings, and that these rankings included both NCAA (College Division) and NAIA teams. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. When instituted in 1958 (source), the small-college rankings covered the 519 institutions not designated as "major" by the Football Writers Association of America (there were 109 such "major" programs). If we were creating 1958 college football articles from scratch, 1958 major college football season and 1958 small college football season would seem to be appropriate (the source notes that with regards to NCAA and NAIA membership, some teams belonged to just one, some teams belonged to both, and some teams belonged to neither). Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks; I've seen that quote, but corroboration is lacking. That is the only newspaper article containing such a statement by Byers—searching for 1962 articles containing "university division" "college division" and "Walter Byers" yields only six hits, and none of the other five corroborate what Tommy Devine of the Miami News wrote. It is implausible that such a structure existed for NCAA football in 1962, yet only one columnist from one newspaper wrote about it. Perhaps there are other articles, using different wording, but I've not been able to find them, at least so far.
The most authoritative sourcing I've been able to find, so far, is this document from the NCAA, a 2012 summary of Division II. On page 3, there are the "Regional Championship Results", with a section lead stating "Before 1973, there was no Division II Football Championship. Instead, four regional bowl games were played in order to provide postseason action for what then were called NCAA College Division member institutions. Following are the results of those bowl games:" This document and contemporary accounts of the noted bowl games—of which there are various newspaper articles referring to, for example, the Tangerine Bowl as the "NCAA College Division Atlantic Coast playoff game" (source)—give us solid ground for the 1964 season through the creation of Division II / Division III. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That strikes me as further corroborating that the "College Division" was a real thing, at least in the 1960s. No? Cbl62 (talk) 00:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1964 and later, yes. Before 1964 remains murky. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After a bunch of additions review, I've found there was an NCAA College Division Football Committee; it first shows up in January 1964 (example) and mentions of it can be found in newspapers into 1973 (example) with only a few stray mentions later. This article in August 1963 stated "The college division football program, still subject to ratification at the January 1964 NCAA convention, provides for regional championship games beginning 1964." I will start a new topic with a suggestion, as this discussion is now several layers deep. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would be nice to see some sort of official NCAA documentation and/or definitive encyclopedic work from the era. I've been building a list of archived official college football guides here: Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Archived yearbooks. The 1971 issue explicitly refers to College and University Divisions. I haven't found any such guides from the sensitive time period (1956–1964-ish). The NCAA website also has a lot of team summary reports from the years in question, e.g. (1963 UC Davis Aggies football team). While that archived report has a file name that refers the "College Division", the 1963 document itself does not make such a reference. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's worth considering: what makes a "season", to that point that independent articles are warranted? Clearly today there are, for example, independent rankings, playoffs, and even administrative rules (e.g. number of athletic scholarships) that are specific to the various NCAA football levels from Division III through Division I FBS. Something akin to that existed from 1964 onward, with the start of the College Division regional finals and a governing entity (NCAA College Division Football Committee). Prior to 1964, there's a general entity known as "college football", which did not conduct or administer "seasons" at different levels—who was considered "major" seems to have been based on the opinion of the FWAA, there were conferences with a mix of major and non-major teams, and the various teams that competed belonged the NCAA and/or NAIA (sometimes one, sometimes both, sometimes neither). The closest thing to delineate different levels are the "small college" polls of UPI (starting in 1958) and the AP (starting in 1960) and the statistical delineation of major and small-college by the NCAA Service Bureau dating back to, apparently, the late 1930s. But I question whether that's an indication that different "seasons" of competition were taking place, vs. wire services and the NCAA statisicians felt it made sense to look at Notre Dame, Michigan, and Oklahoma differently than Small State College as a matter of convenience or other factors. Dmoore5556 (talk) 17:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You make some good points, adding to my second thoughts about trying to create separate articles pre-1964 (or, per my preference, pre-1962) for "major college" and "small college" football seasons. If you conclude that the best outcome is to simply revert to "19xx college football season", I'd support that. Cbl62 (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC) Cbl62 (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given the uncertainty about major/small split by season, at least based on what we know currently, I feel that "19xx college football season" articles are the safest (as in, they can be well-sourced and avoid straying into original research). The relevant question being, what's the transition point from unified "football season" articles to having different University and College season articles? The Byers quote (here, December 1962) looks to be less of an outlier in consideration of the November 1961 quote noted below (here) although it is still worth considering if there were really different "seasons" of football happening amongst NCAA schools prior to the 1964 onset of College Division-specific postseason games. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:37, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

College Division / University Division[edit]

From the above discussion... a suggestion:

Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1) Agree that the "19xx College Division football season" articles from 1956 to at least 1961 are based on original and/or flawed research and need to be changed.
2) Agree that the "19xx College Division football season" articles from 1964 forward be left as is. I would go further and extend this back to 1962 when we have this quote from NCAA executive director Walter Byers referring to "our University and College divisions" and giving a specific breakdown that there were at that time 140 schools playing football in the University Division and 370 programs competing in the college division. To my mind, this is clear evidence that the "University/College Division" split had occurred by 1962.
3) For the earlier years, I was initially inclined to split them (and probably support the split) into separate "major" and "small" college articles. However, as we've begun to dig in, second thoughts have developed due to
(a) ambiguity and uncertainty as to which programs were considered "major" vs "small" (there were inconsistencies in how some teams were classified),
(b) uncertainty as to which designators of "major" status we should report. So far, we have multiple and sometimes inconsitent designations by (i) FWAA (unfortunately, we don't yet have its annual lists of the schools it designated as "major"), (ii) the NCAA Service Bureau which divided its annual statistical reports between schools designated as "major" and "small", (iii) AP Newsfeatures' pre-season publication of "major college" football schedules,
(c) the split creates an issue as to how we should treat certain conferences. For example, in 1948, only two of five MVC schools (3/9 Border, 4/6 Skyline, 12/16 SoCon) were considered "major". Cbl62 (talk) 09:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cbl62 good insight, thanks. The 1962 Byers quote is still problematic, as a) the Miami News column in question is the only known instance where a writer attributed such a statement to Byers, and b) 140 is an overly high number of programs to consider "major", as other sources (such as the published schedules, example) put the number in the 120s. I would like to see some corroborating source(s), lest this simply be a case of one columnist's notes being off. I will dig some more, as time permits. Dmoore5556 (talk) 14:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 1962 record is not as clear as we'd like, but I see the Byers quote as pretty decent evidence. It's conceivable that the reporter may have gotten the precise counts for either division off by a bit, but it seems unlikely that the reporter (a 30-year veteran reporter and sports editor of a major newspaper) just made up the whole sequence of quotes from Byers about the two divisions. Cbl62 (talk) 23:19, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here are the relevant pages from the 1963 NCAA records book. PK-WIKI (talk) 22:31, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PK-WIKI, the 1963 NCAA records book content is helpful, thank you. I've done some additional digging, and found a relevant article from 1961, as below. Newspaper mentions of "college division" before 1961 that I've looked through are not specific to football; most are about basketball, with some cross-country mentions. Standard disclaimer that there could be other content, which I've not found.
The pages referenced by PK-WIKI from the 1963 NCAA annual are pretty definitive: the split between the College and University Divisions were a real and official thing in 1963. It would be interesting to see how the 1962 NCAA annual dealt with the matter. Cbl62 (talk) 00:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PK-WIKI: Would you be willing either (a) to share the full range of pages from the 1963 NCAA annual that identify the University Division Schools, or (b) transcribe the list of University Division schools at Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Major vs small college compendium#1963. Thanks for finding this! Cbl62 (talk) 00:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, here are the 1963 University Division schedules. PK-WIKI (talk) 01:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cbl62, I agree, it would be insightful to see how things were presented in the 1962 NCAA book. Since PK-WIKI noted above that he doesn't have a copy of the 1962 edition, I just purchased one via eBay, and I'll provide an update here as soon as I get it (hopefully early next week). PK-WIKI, if you later want the 1962 edition to add to your collection, I'd be happy to send it to you. Dmoore5556 (talk) 06:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I should receive the 1962 NCAA book tomorrow (Wednesday) and will provide an update as soon as possible. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The 1962 NCAA book (with Sonny Gibbs on the cover) did arrive—I've looked through it, and it does not make any mention of the NCAA having College and University Divisions. What I see is:

If anyone wants other info from this record book, let me know.

Considering the clear contrast between the 1962 record book and 1963 record book... that looks to be the transition point from no organizational split, to having University and College divisions. Having different record keeping for teams deemed major-college and small-college dates to earlier (apparently, the 1930s) but does not reflect an organizational split. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:08, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I should also add... we are left with an inconsistency for 1962, where the Record Book doesn't show University/College but there's a statement (here) about University/College by Walter Byers. There was certainly a time gap between the issuing of the Record Book (it doesn't say what month it was published, but it's certainly no later than September 1962, and likely a few months earlier) and Byers' statement, which was published on December 12, 1962. It would seem either the NCAA decided late in the 1962 pre-season to implement University/College (that is, it happened after the Record Book was finalized) or perhaps Byers was looking ahead to the 1963 season (he was speaking about a "comprehensive survey" that had not yet happened). I'd be curious as to if anything the 1963 Record Book makes mention of University/College existing during the prior (1962) season, or just in the 1963 schedules. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For completeness, there is a source cited in 1956 NCAA University Division football season which states:

Before we list those players, we must first note how the NCAA divisions used to be organized. Prior to 1956, there were no Divisions in college football. Between 1956 and 1972, schools were categorized in either the “University Division” or the “College Division”. In 1973, the University Division became Division I while the College Division becamse Divisions II and III. There was another split in 1978, with Division I breaking up into Division I and Division I-AA. In 2006, we saw the new classification of the FBS and FCS arise. That is our current structure.

The source is this page on the site, published in July 2016 and authored by one Chris Hudson. I view the "Between 1956 and 1972" statement as a well-intended attempt to clarify history, but it ultimately lacks sourcing and does not hold up to scrutiny. His statement would be accurate in a basketball context, but not in a football context, even though it "sounds good".

Next steps

I believe we are at a point where the unified content found at 1955 college football season should be extended through at least 1961 college football season, and the first season to have separate University Division and College Division articles should be either 1962 or 1963. Comments?

Note that NAIA season articles begin with 1956 NAIA football season, so whether that content should be included in the above, or left to stand on their own, also merits some consideration. I have not looked into NAIA football history, so I don't know to what degree the unsourced statement "The 1956 NAIA football season was the first season of college football sponsored by the National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics." is factually accurate.

Lastly, we should also consider whether to make changes directly (WP:BOLD), or via WP:MERGE, or ?

Thank you to all who have participated in this (now quite lengthy) discussion. Dmoore5556 (talk) 20:58, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Upper Midwest Athletic Conference: NAIA or NCAA D3?[edit]

I came across a slew of conference standings templates for Upper Midwest Athletic Conference (and began a TfD for a majority of them here for anyone interested in participating). However, I noticed that for the 2002 and 2003 templates, they are included in both 2002 NCAA Division III football season and 2002 NAIA football season, and both 2003 NCAA Division III football season and 2003 NAIA football season. I don't think programs can be part of the NCAA and NAIA in the same season, so could anyone help out and figure out which league these conferences belong to? Eagles 24/7 (C) 19:02, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was certainly the case at one time that a single conference could include both NAIA and NCAA teams, c.f. Template:1981 Lone Star Conference football standings. That's also a very silly set of TfDs. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jweiss11: The article Upper Midwest Athletic Conference says it joined the NCAA in 2008 from the NAIA. It looks like you added these templates to each of the NCAA and NAIA season articles, could you clarify or source in the article what happened with their league affiliations? And I agree it is very silly that there are so many of these standings templates that are only used in one article, since it defeats the purpose of a template. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not silly at all if you consider the principles of consistency and parallelism and think about how articles related to these templates are almost surely going to evolve. The UMAC's website says the conference joined the NCAA in 2008 here: The NCAA website indicates that Northwestern (MN) joined the NCAA in 2008 ( but that Martin Luther has been an NCAA member since 1991 ( So in 2002, and a few other years, the UMAC apparently included both NAIA and NCAA teams. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jweiss11: Do you think a note should be added to some of these standings templates to indicate which league the team was a member of? I find these mixed-league conferences are confusing to readers (and me). And since these standings templates are being created before team articles, season articles, and other list articles for the programs, context may be needed to understand them. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note of clarification that, at one time, it was not uncommon for schools to belong to both the NCAA and NAIA. I don't know to what degree that was the case "only" ~20 years ago, but this article from July 1958 notes around 120 small colleges were, at that time, members of both organizations. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:54, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oklahoma Panhandle State was a NCAA Division II independent and a member of the NAIA Central States Football League well into the 2010s. They joined the Lone Star Conference before dropping down to NAIA and re-join the SAC.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:27, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CFB HOF[edit]

I just went through and reconciled the CFB HOF inductee lists with Category:College Football Hall of Fame inductees, and came up with 129 names that need to be added to the category. I don't have time to work on them now, but I figured if someone is looking for a project I can provide the list. LMK. Jb45424 (talk) 00:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is what needs to be done, simply adding Category:College Football Hall of Fame inductees to 129 different articles? Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Jb45424 (talk) 03:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK—perhaps create a list, similar to (and simpler than) Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/CFHOF article improvement campaign, so volunteers can edit as time allows and mark as completed. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Follow up: WikiOriginal-9 updated 96 of these articles on 17 May, and I updated the remaining 33 today. So the work is done. checkY Jb45424 (talk) 11:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cleveland Plain Dealer[edit]

The Cleveland Plain Dealer is now available digitally on Woohoo! Cbl62 (talk) 16:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most excellent! When my local Dayton papers were added to, it was honestly one of the happiest days of my life! Jb45424 (talk) 16:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Short names for junior college programs[edit]

In recent weeks, Cbl62, Thetreesarespeakingtome, and I have done a bunch work to expand our coverage of junior college football, e.g. 1941 Los Angeles City Cubs football team, 1967 junior college football season, and 2023 junior college football season. An issue that needs some discussion and resolution is the naming scheme for a few junior college athletics programs. I'll kick things off with a couple examples.

Thoughts on these two to start? Cbl62 may have more examples worthy of discussion. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CfD: Category:1941 junior college football season[edit]

Category:1941 junior college football season has been nominated for merging. Please the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 23#Category:1941 junior college football season. Jweiss11 (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2020-21 seasons[edit]

Moving this here.

Was there a discussion on what to do for the COVID-19 season in terms of coaching record tables? There about a million and a half different ways it has been expressed and I am unsure as to which should be done. I feel as though there are multiple feasible ways but I am unsure of a consensus which will tie into another point.

Option A, just stating no team
Year Team Overall Conference Standing Bowl/playoffs
Framingham State Rams (Massachusetts State Collegiate Athletic Conference) (2020)
2020–21 Framingham State No team
Framingham State: 0–0 0–0
Total: 0–0
Option B, no team + —COVID-19 like what was done with World War II teams that did not play
Year Team Overall Conference Standing Bowl/playoffs
Framingham State Rams (Massachusetts State Collegiate Athletic Conference) (2020)
2020–21 Framingham State No team—COVID-19
Framingham State: 0–0 0–0
Total: 0–0
Option C, no team + note
Year Team Overall Conference Standing Bowl/playoffs
Framingham State Rams (Massachusetts State Collegiate Athletic Conference) (2020)
2020–21 Framingham State No team[a]
Framingham State: 0–0 0–0
Total: 0–0
  1. ^ Team did not play due to COVID-19.

This goes along with the next point on if a season was played, should there be a note in the record table explaining that the games were played in the spring or just leave it without.

Third point, should 2020 be grayed out on the coaches navboxes like I did for:

((Albany State Golden Rams football coach navbox)) ((Adams State Grizzlies football coach navbox))

If we do that, that would also go in hand with what was done for World War II, but again, just a few questions for you/seeing if there was a consensus already. Thanks! Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 00:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I, personally, believe option B is the best along with greying out the year in the navbox, although that will cause a small issue with ((Framingham State Rams football coach navbox))'s Aynsley Rosenbaum and ((Azusa Pacific Cougars football coach navbox))'s Rudy Carlton. Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 00:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thetreesarespeakingtome, thanks for bringing this up. I don't believe there ever was a discussion about this. It's probably worth transferring this discussion to WT:CFB to get more input. Option B seems best to me as well for consistency with how we've treated the World Wars. As for Rosenbaum and Carlton, since they never logged a single decision as head coach on their ledger, I think they fall into the category of a Bo Rein at LSU. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:49, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 02:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Conference awards in infoboxes[edit]

There is a proposal at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League#Proposal: Remove (some) conference awards from infoboxes that editors may be interested in.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 14:00, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]