This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

This was archived, but I'm bringing it back for now
Since Hey man im josh asked to see a list of NFL players needing articles by games played, I'll be going through and listing here each NFL player with more than 10 games without an article (italics=20+;bold=30+;bold-italics=40+) - Through "Gus Fetz":

• John Alexander (1977-78 Dolphins, 12 gm)
• Carl Allen (1948 Brooklyn Dodgers, 13 gm)
• Joe Allton (1942 Cardinals, 11 gm)
• Roger Anderson (1964-68 Giants, 37 gm) [1], [2], [3]
• Warren Anderson (1977-78 Oilers/Cardinals, 10 gm)
• Charles Anthony (1974 Chargers, 13 gm)
• Bob Armstrong (1931-32 Spartans (now Lions), 20 gm)
• Kelvin Atkins (1983 Bears, 13 gm)
• David Bailey (1990 Eagles, 13 gm)
• Mark Bailey (1977-78 Chiefs, 27 gm) [4]
• Monk Bailey (1964-65 Cardinals, 23 gm)[5][6]
• Quinton Ballard (1983 Colts, 15 gm)
• Al Barnes (1972-73 Lions, 20 gm)
• Mike Barnes (1967-68 Cardinals, 17 gm)
• Bob Barrabee (1930 Staten Island Stapletons, 10 gm)[7][8][9]
• Rich Baska (1976-77 Broncos, 18 gm)
• Billy Bell (1989, 91 Oilers/Chiefs, 12 gm)
• Tony Bertuca (1974 Colts, 14 gm)
• Bobby Bethune (1962 Chargers, 10 gm)
• Fred Booker (2005 Saints, 12 gm)
• Bill Boyd (1930-31 Cardinals, 16 gm)
• John Boynton (1969 Dolphins, 14 gm)
• Bill Brace (1920-22 Buffalo All-Americans, 31 gm)
• Michael Brandon (1993-96 Colts/Cardinals/49ers, 31 gm)
• Speed Braney (1925-26 Providence Steamrollers, 13 gm) - already exists as Joe Braney
• Leo Brennan (1942 Eagles, 11 gm)
• Jeep Brett (1936-37 Cardinals/Steelers, 19 gm)
• Bill Brian (1935-36 Eagles, 20 gm)
• Bob Brooks (1961 New York Titans, 14 gm)
• Bill Brown (B) (1943-44 Brooklyn Dodgers, 15 gm)
• Bill Brown (LB) (1960 Patriots, 14 gm)
• Cedrick Brown (1987 Eagles, 12 gm)
• Chad Brown (1993-95 Cardinals, 18 gm)
• Dave Brown (1943-47 Giants, 24 gm)
• Don Brown (1983 Seahawks, 13 gm)
• Doug Brown (1962-64 Rams/Raiders, 13 gm)
• Robert Brown (1969-73 Rams/Vikings/Saints, 53 gm)
• Sidney Brown (1978 Patriots, 16 gm)
• Jack Brumfield (1954 49ers, 12 gm)
• Steve Bryan (1987-88 Broncos, 12 gm)
• Charlie Bryant (1966-69 Cardinals/Falcons, 34 gm)[10][11]
• Chuck Bryant (1962 Cardinals, 13 gm)
• Roderick Bryant (2004 Jets, 13 gm)
• Ray Bucek (1946 Steelers, 11 gm)
• Don Burchfield (1971 Saints, 14 gm)
• Raymond Burks (1977 Chiefs, 13 gm)
• Steve Burks (1975-77 Patriots, 34 gm)
• Robert Burns (1974 Jets, 14 gm)
• Bill Butler (1972-74 Saints, 41 gm)
• Eddie Cade (1995 Patriots, 10 gm)
• Darryl Caldwell (1983 Bills, 14 gm)
• Jack Cameron (1984 Bears, 16 gm)
• Jim Canady (1948-49 Bears/New York Bulldogs, 15 gm)
• Oke Carlson (1924-26 Duluth Eskimos, 18 gm)
• Ed Carman (1922, 25 Hammond Pros/Buffalo Bisons, 11 gm)
• Ron Carpenter (1964-65 Chargers, 18 gm)
• Ed Carrington (1968-69 Oilers, 15 gm)
• Jay Caroll (1984-85 Buccaneers/Vikings, 32 gm)
• Ronnie Caroll (1974 Oilers, 14 gm)
• Charlie Carton (1925 Frankford Yellow Jackets, 13 gm)
• Mel Carver (1982-85, 87 Buccaneers/Colts, 33 gm)
• Tom Casey (1948 New York Yankees, 11 gm)
• Lloyd Cearing (1922-23 Hammond Pros, 13 gm)
• William Cesare (1978-82 Buccaneers/Dolphins/Buccaneers/Lions, 46 gm)
• Stephen Cheek (2004 Chiefs, 12 gm)
• Gail Clark (1973-74 Bears/Patriots, 19 gm)
• Rico Clark (1997-99 Colts/Bengals/Patriots, 29 gm)
• Tom Cobb (1927-31 Kansas City Cowboys/Cleveland Bulldogs/Detroit Wolverines/Cardinals, 37)
• Chris Coleman (2000-01 Titans, 29 gm)
• Harry Collins (1924 Buffalo All-Americans, 11 gm)
• Jeff Colter (1984-87 Vikings/Chiefs, 17 gm)
• Bill Combs (1942 Eagles, 10 gm)
• Dave Cook (1934-36 Cardinals/Brooklyn Dodgers, 24 gm)
• Rob Coons (1995-97 Bills, 32 gm)
• George Cooper (1987 49ers, 10 gm)
• Norm Cooper (1937-38 Brooklyn Dodgers, 20 gm)
• Tom Corbo (1944 Rams, 10 gm)
• Tom Costello (1964-65 Giants, 10 gm)
• Larry Cox (1966-68 Broncos, 33 gm)
• Milt Crain (1944 Boston Yanks, 10 gm)
• Mike Crangle (1972 Saints, 13 gm)
• Bill Craven (1976 Browns, 13 gm)
• Ron Crews (1980 Browns, 16 gm)
• Jack Crittendon (1954 Cardinals, 10 gm)
• Abe Croft (1944-45 Cardinals, 11 gm)
• Win Croft (1935-36 Brooklyn Dodgers/Steelers, 20 gm)
• Joe Crowley (1944-45 Boston Yanks, 18 gm)
• Bob Crum (1974 Cardinals, 14 gm)
• Jay Cunningham (1965-67 Patriots, 40 gm)
• Harry Curran (1920-21 Cardinals, 10 gm)
• Harry Curzon (1925-28 Buffalo All-Americans/Hammond Pros/Louisville Colonels/Cardinals, 15 gm)
• Peter Cusick (1975 Patriots, 13 gm)
• Ziggy Czarobski (1948-49 Chicago Rockets/Chicago Hornets, 26 gm)
• Red Daum (1922-26 Akron Pros, 37 gm)
• Bob Davis (1938-46 Rams/Eagles/Boston Yanks, 49 gm)
• Butch Davis (1970 Bears, 10 gm)
• Lee Davis (1985-87 Bengals/Colts, 10 gm)
• Ray Davis (1932-33 Portsmouth Spartans, 15 gm)
• Al Day (1960 Broncos, 14 gm)
• Floyd Dean (1964-65 49ers, 15 gm)
• Tom Dean (1946-47 Boston Yanks, 21 gm)
• Paul Dekker (1953 Redskins, 11 gm)
• Earl Denny (1967-68 Vikings, 27 gm)
• Herb DeWitz (1927 Cleveland Bulldogs, 13 gm)
• Rufe DeWitz (1924-26 Kansas City Cowboys, 16 gm)
• Charlie Diehl (1930-34 Cardinals/St. Louis Gunners, 15 gm)
• Rich Dixon (1983 Falcons, 14 gm)
• Gene Donaldson (1953 Browns, 11 gm)
• John Dooley (1922-25 Rochester Jeffersons/Milwaukee Badgers, 17 gm)
• Jay Douglas (1973-74 Chargers, 28 gm)
• Mule Dowell (1935-36 Cardinals, 15 gm)
• Pat Dowling (1929 Cardinals, 13 gm)
• Bill Drake (1973-74 Rams, 13 gm)
• Joe Driskill (1960-61 Cardinals, 20 gm)
• Al Drulis (1945-47 Cardinals/Steelers, 24 gm)
• Herb Duggins (1934 Cardinals, 11 gm)
• Jim Dumont (1984 Browns, 12 gm)
• Frank Duncan (1979-81 Chargers, 26 gm)
• Bob Dunlap (1935-36 Bears/Giants, 17 gm - QB)
• Alex Eagle (1935 Brooklyn Dodgers, 10 gm)
• Tim Edwards (1992 Patriots, 14 gm)
• Charlie Elliott (1947-48 New York Yankees/Chicago Rockets/49ers, 14 gm)
• Herb Ellis (1949 New York Yankees, 12 gm)
• Mark Ellison (1972-73 Giants, 28 gm)
• Charley Ellzey (1960-61 Cardinals, 14 gm)
• Earl Elser (1933-34 Spartans (now Lions)/Cincinnati Reds/St. Louis Gunners, 13 gm)
• Earl Elsey (1946 Los Angeles Dons, 13 gm) Elsey and Elser would make a good combined DYK hook: ... that Earl Elsey, a 13-game professional football player, is not to be confused with Earl Elser, a 13-game professional football player?
• Jack Elwell (1962 Cardinals, 13 gm)
• Larry Etienne (1990 49ers, 10 gm)
• David Evans (1986-87 Vikings, 19 gm)
• John Farley (1984 Bengals, 13 gm)
• Scrapper Farrell (1938-39 Steelers/Brooklyn Dodgers, 14 gm)
• John Farris (1965-66 Chargers, 28 gm)
• Jake Fawcett (1942-46 Rams/Brooklyn Dodgers, 34 gm)
• Al Feeney (1920-21 Canton Bulldogs, 19 gm)
• Lou Feist (1924-26 Buffalo Bisons/Rangers, 22 gm) Source
• Bobby Felts (1965-67 Colts/Lions, 38 gm)
• James Ferguson (1968-69 Saints/Falcons/Bears, 10 gm)
• Ron Fernandes (1976-79 Colts, 40 gm)

BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:02, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:WikiProject National Football League/Articles to create exists for articles yet to be created.-- Yankees10 00:52, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

I know, but Josh requested a list for ones with the most games – the "Articles to create" list includes people with low numbers of games – it also misses some players with large amounts of games. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:55, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense. I missed your comment above.-- Yankees10 00:58, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for this @BeanieFan11! Wikipedia:WikiProject National Football League/Articles to create is very useful, but it doesn't tell us a lot beyond that a player's article is needed (unless you go the associated PFR links). I wanted to help out creating some articles but I also wanted to focus on ones that were most likely to survive if sent to AfD. While participation is not an indicator of notability it can be a useful place to start when trying to pick articles to create. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:20, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Roger Anderson is interesting to me, as he transitioned from being a tackle in his rookie year to being a defensive tackle for his final 3 years. I'm going to work on his article. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:31, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh: I could find a few sources for you if you'd like (through Newspapers.com, or do you have that already?). Thanks for being willing to help! BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:59, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the offer @BeanieFan11, but I think I'll have enough in this case. Anderson is very easily notable given what I'm finding, including his participating in the CFL, induction into his college's HoF, and All-American status. I just need to put the work in =) Hey man im josh (talk) 15:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Would it make sense to reformat the players section of Wikipedia:WikiProject National Football League/Articles to create to include this info? We could do columns with game played, PFR link, notes for claims to notability, etc. Hey man im josh (talk) 23:20, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

We could, but I feel that would just take way too much work. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:23, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

• I'll take Cedrick Brown. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:21, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Quinton Ballard next. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:20, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

• Speed Braney already exists on Wikipedia as Joe Braney, needs some more sources though. This messageboard states he was an All-American offensive lineman at Syracuse but I haven't yet found a contemporary that backs that part up. Alvaldi (talk) 18:11, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
• Commenting so this won't be archived. BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
  • And again. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:10, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
    • Another time. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:27, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
      • Again. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:47, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
• Bobby Bethune added. Harper J. Cole (talk) 20:08, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Thanks! BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:42, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest adding Bob Davis (American football, born 1914). They played in 49 games between 1938 and 1946 as a two-way player. They also led the league in punt return yards in 1944. PFR link here. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:34, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Wow, I'm... really surprised that a player with such accomplishments as Davis is missing an article. If no one else will, I'll try taking on his biography later this month or maybe next month. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:47, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Commenting before this gets archived. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:43, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Found one with 67 games that appears article-less: Guy Roberts. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:17, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Another comment to avoid archive. BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:40, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

One more - I still intend on finishing this list at some point... BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:50, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

...one of my works is Today's Featured Article! BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:23, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Congratulations! Harper J. Cole (talk) 00:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Well deserved recognition. I was so pleasantly surprised to see it just now :) Keep it up! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 01:14, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Great when Beanie!!! Looking forward to this being the first not the last knowing you ;) Hey man im josh (talk) 01:37, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

You did a very solid job on that article! Congratulations are certainly in order, if there was a Gatorade shower barnstar I would give you it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:27, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

You may be interested in the deletion discussion on Norm Glockson, a 1910s/1920s NFL and MLB player. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:41, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello WikiProject NFL. The article Football America is listed under your WikiProject and is also one of the oldest unreferenced articles on the site. If anyone would be willing to take a look and add sources to the article it would be much appreciated. Tooncool64 (talk) 22:27, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

I would appreciate if someone would be willing to expand Ed Budde a bit in time to post his article at ITN; see discussion about him at Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#RD:_Ed_Budde. Thanks. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:16, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Over the last couple of weeks I've seen local stations being added to the game boxes and schedule tables for games that are streamed on Peacock or Prime Video. Previously we've only listed local stations for preseason games that don't have national coverage, and I've seen these changes reverted and have reverted some myself, but they keep getting re-added.

Since this is a relatively new thing I wanted someone else's opinions on this before removing local stations again. I think it's unnecessary clutter, even if all stations are removed after the season is over. KristofferAG (talk) 16:17, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Somewhat related to this, I have done quite a bit of work in historical articles and some editors (or IPs) are adding networks to these tables. I agree that it is uneccesary clutter.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:56, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I'll add that I'm aware of WP:NOTTVGUIDE, which I think is another reason why we shouldn't be listing local stations at all. KristofferAG (talk) 15:59, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Frankly, even listing the national network is TVGUIDE-ish. I'd remove them for all but broadcast-specific pages (e.g. List of Los Angeles Rams broadcasters) or special dedicated game pages like a Super Bowl, where the broadcast is significantly related. It's trivial info to place in a season schedule table or game summary. But at a minimum, we certainly don't need local channels in most tables. —Bagumba (talk) 17:01, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I think it's worth removing network info from schedule tables per WP:NOTTVGUIDE, as you mentioned. If the info is sourced, I don't see a problem with adding it to game summary templates (i.e. ((Americanfootballbox))), but not the schedule summary tables. – PeeJay 17:32, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't personally think they're worth having in the game boxes either, but at least it's less distracting there than in the tables. KristofferAG (talk) 14:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Is there a way to template the header of the schedule tables to discourage the creation of such information in tables? I don't necessarily mean go full template like college football for the whole table just something that could have team/team color for the season, Week, Date, Opponent, Result, Venue, (attendance is in many historical articles) in the header to standardize the tables both currently and historically? I would argue that putting the color of the weeks as the jersey combo can even violate WP:COLOR. I have been working on and off trying to standardize/modernize the formatting of historical season articles schedule tables, that is why I am asking these questions.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Should an article be made for that game? It was historical and saw the dolphins have the most points in a game in over a half century. 108.58.27.76 (talk) 20:40, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

No. The game has no lasting impact, no broken records, no serious playoff implications, and wasn't particularly notable. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh: Actually, the Dolphins set 13 records in their win against the Broncos. CBS News has significant coverage of the event on November 17, nearly two months after the event. This source describes how the loss contributed to the Broncos failing to make the NFL postseason. But if that can’t have an article there are other games that might be worthy. But I think an article should be considered.108.58.27.76 (talk) 17:21, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Looking at List of highest-scoring NFL games, it does seem that most of them don't have their own articles. The bar is quite high for regular season games, I think. Harper J. Cole (talk) 20:16, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:RECENT is a nice essay that I think covers this a bit. Coverage needs to be significant and lasting. Note that most (all?) of those records were team records. Definitely justifies being included in Miami Dolphins records and 2023 Miami Dolphins season, but unless ongoing coverage from independent, reliable sources continues discussing it, it likely will fall short of the bar needed to meet WP:GNG. That said, the best case for an article is one that is already written. You are welcome to draft one and bring it here for an initial review. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:25, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

You may be interested in the deletion discussion for Vivian Hultman, a 30-game NFL player. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:42, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:C. J. Johnson (American football)#Requested move 4 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Antonio Morrison (American football)#Requested move 4 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Alex Ward (American football)#Requested move 4 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:10, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi,

The GA reviewer for 1966 San Diego Chargers is asking for a citation for the following line...

Note: Tie games were not officially counted in the standings in the AFL.

This line appears on the standings template for all AFL seasons, so it's certainly worth getting a good citation. The second citation on List of NFL tied games specifies that ties didn't count in the NFL until 1972, but doesn't mention the AFL directly. I've also found a newspaper quote specifying that those were the AFL rules in 1965.[15]

Still, a single citation saying that the AFL disregarded ties would be best. Does anyone know of one?

Thanks, Harper J. Cole (talk) 23:38, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

I can dig for this tomorrow if you still haven't found anything for it. Ping me if I forget to reply. Hey man im josh (talk) 02:09, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, the reviewer accepted the standings table of that season (with winnings percentages indirectly showing that ties weren't counted) as enough evidence. If you know of a more direct source then that's a bonus, but it should be okay as is. Harper J. Cole (talk) 00:42, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Is it just me or did the infoboxes on NFL players get smaller? ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 09:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's just you @WikiOriginal-9. Myself, I would remove one or two things at a time if they meet this removal format: WP:NFLINFOBOXNOT. Also, there are a couple of editors that do cut the list of career stats down. That I believe is a personal thing and what they see as important. I don't ask. If it's regarding the high school city and state being removed when it's the same as the place birth ... that's me, guilty as charged, lol. Bringingthewood (talk) 06:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's anything like that. It just looks smaller for some reason. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 06:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Hmmmmm .. that's some spooky ****!

You may be interested in the deletion discussion for the List of current National Football League staffs. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Another editor at New England Patriots is insisting that Tom Brady's number was retired during the season opener this year, using dubious sources. I have pointed out on my talk page, as well as the team's talk page, that more reliable sources like NFL.com [16] and the team itself [17] make no reference to the number being retired. Ditto ESPN [18] CBS [19] Boston.com [20] NBC Sports Boston [21] Yahoo [22]. Thanks. Jessintime (talk) 15:43, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Jessintime: As previously discussed on your talk page, those sources do NOT support the argument that you are making. @ULPS provided 4 sources which stated that it was retired. Please provide sources that state that Brady's number is not retired, not just sources that omit a mention of his number's retirement. Sources that ULPS listed: People, MensJournal, PFR, Pro Football Hall of Fame. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:54, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Jessintime What is wrong with these sources that clearly state the number is retired? 331dot (talk) 16:05, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

People magazine is a glorified tabloid and Men's Health isn't much better. The other two others are simply lists of retired numbers and are wrong. It's ridiculous I'm being asked to prove a negative here because a couple sources got something wrong. Why would the team, the league, or the team's actual beat writers omit any reference to the number being retired? If you don't believe me, watch the ceremony online [23] and tell me where Robert Kraft, Brady or anyone says the number has been retired. Jessintime (talk) 17:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Jessintime: The Pro Football Hall of Fame and Pro-football-reference.com are reliable sources for NFL info, but you're stating they're wrong without any sources that back up your statement. Why do you think these are not appropriate sources for confirming that the number has been retired? Additionally, please note that People is considered a reliable source based on past discussions, per WP:RSP. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:17, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Because the number hasn't been retired? And you still haven't explained why it is that, if the number were retired, the Patriots etc. made no mention of it. (And to address to a point that I'm sure will be brought up, while I expect the number 12 will be retired in the future, we cannot say it is until that happens. For now it's enough to say the number has been taken out of circulation.) Jessintime (talk) 17:23, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Jessintime: "Because the number hasn't been retired?" – Then help us with SOMETHING that verifies this. I've explained that multiple sources (which we consider reliable) state that his number is retired, why would we not consider those to be accurate? Hey man im josh (talk) 17:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I'll let other users chime in. I'm out. Kafka has nothing on this. Jessintime (talk) 17:35, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Jessintime: To be clear, unless sources can be found that go against what the reliable sources listed above say, then there's no policy based reason for removal of the information from relevant articles. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:38, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh: Cat got your tongue? Jessintime (talk) 21:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

@Jessintime, you wanna try that again? It's unclear what you're trying to say but that type of attitude is not appreciated. Hey man im josh (talk) 21:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

That's not appropriate. No one is trying to "win" arguments here. If that's what you're doing, I suggest you stop. We're just trying to come to a consensus on what to do. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 22:06, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Not trying to win, just trying to get misinformation corrected. Jessintime (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Here are some conflicting sources:

• But the Patriots didn’t retire Tom Brady’s number. "No statue? No retired 12? Patriots' Tom Brady ceremony under delivers". MassLive. September 11, 2023.
• While his Hall of Fame induction was announced Sunday, we'd have to imagine a No. 12 will be retired soon enough, along with a Tom Brady statue being erected somewhere at Patriot Place. "Patriots announce that Tom Brady will go into team Hall of Fame on June 12, 2024". WBZ-TV. September 10, 2023.

—Bagumba (talk) 17:57, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Jessintime (talk) 18:31, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

So 12 is either extremely discouraged to be used/retired in all but name, or officially retired. This is a pretty weird situation (Surprisingly not the only gripe I've had with retired numbers this week, I spent some time a few days ago scouring the internet for the date of number retirement for another Pats player, the NFL really needs to keep better records about this stuff.) I of course personally defer to PFR and the Hall of Fame, which is why I added 12 to the related retirement articles. Perhaps we should send an email to them asking how they came about this info? If it turns out that they jumped the gun as Jessintime put it, it should definitely be removed. ULPS ^{(talk • contribs)} 01:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree, it's entirely possible the number isn't retired, but going by the overall weight of the sources we're comparing, I'm inclined to lean towards PFR and the PFHOF. I wish teams had better history on their sites, including a list of retired numbers and members of their respective rings of honor. Pretty much every team's site is lacking in historical information. Hey man im josh (talk) 22:17, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

The essay WP:INACCURACY suggests:

...there are three main editorial approaches to reporting potentially inaccurate material: inline attribution, footnotes, and exclusion due to insignificance.

I can understand presenting a balanced view of the conflicting viewpoints, or just excluding mention of the supposed retirement altogether, due to its uncertainty. However, I don't see a justification for mentioning the retirement without any mention that some reliablesources say it hasn't happened yet. —Bagumba (talk) 03:26, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

• Can we circle back to this where it's been a week already? Or should I just go and remove Brady from the list of retired numbers? Jessintime (talk) 16:12, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Jessintime: I still oppose removal of the number retirement until better/more sources can be found. The weight of the sources provided for Brady's number retirement are more than that of the ones that mention they did not at that event. For all we know, they retired it a couple months afterwards without a ceremony. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  How come team announcements are required for free agent signings, trades, etc. but here we can ignore the fact that the team has said nothing on the matter? Jessintime (talk) 18:43, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Jessintime: Those are false equivalencies. Free agency is riddled with speculation, false reports (clickbait) about players having signed, and contracts agreed to in principal that simply don't pan out. We don't accept free agent signings from most of the Twitter reporters because they have been wrong on a number of occasions. We have reason to be skeptical of them and to not take those articles, which usually always say "x player is reported to have signed with...", whereas in this case, we have two sources which are typically reliable (Pro-football-reference.com and the Pro Football Hall of Fame) which state that the number is retired. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:54, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  Pro-football-reference.com and the Pro Football Hall of Fame are "typically" reliable, but everyone makes errors too. Those should be judged on a per-case basis, when sources conflict. And those are mere listings, with no background given, unlike in a full report. For the number retirement, I'd generally apply more weight to domain experts, like reliable NFL-related writeups of the event, over non-sports sources like People or Men's Journal. It seems plausible that his general retirement ceremony got misreported as a number retirement. Is there reason to suspect that the Patriots would be covert about the number retirement but so explicit about his upcoming team HOF induction? —Bagumba (talk) 01:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  You're right, neither PFR or the PFHOF are infallible. It's certainly possible they're wrong. But I wanted more of a discussion than "look what these two news sites said!"

  Based on the arguments presented in this discussion, I am willing to yield. I've emailed both PFR and the PFHOF before and I think I'll do so again. Hey man im josh (talk) 02:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Do the Patriots have retired numbers on display at Gillette Stadium? Number 12 should not be “retired” until/unless it goes up with the existing other retired numbers. (via Template:Cite sign) I strangely can’t find retired numbers in pictures of the stadium, as almost all other NFL stadiums have on prominent display. But maybe there’s one on the interior concourse or somewhere. PK-WIKI (talk) 17:58, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

There's no retired numbers inside the stadium. Jessintime (talk) 18:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• I'm very strongly of the opinion that the number has not been retired.

The Men's Journal article is basically a rewrite of an article that it links to at "The Source", which does not appear to be a reliable source. Both state that that the number retirement occurred at the Brady return celebration at halftime on September 10, 2023.

However WBZ-TV CBS News Boston's coverage of the same event directly states that his number retirement did not occur: "we'd have to imagine a No. 12 will be retired soon enough". This is a far more reliable source than any of the tabloid/magazine news articles stating the number was retired at the event.

Both PFR and the Pro Football HOF are self-published sources and the accuracy and original source of their jersey retirement data is not clear. It appears to be incorrect.

Back to fist principles, a retired jersey is a public honor a team bestows upon a player. This is typically a display of the jersey in the rafters of the stadium, but at the very least a display on their website, or a press release, or Robert Kraft mentioning the honor during his speech honoring Brady. We have no cited or recorded evidence from the Patriots themselves indicating the number has been retired. Based on the lack of in-house jersey retirement announcement and the CBS News article stating it has not been retired, this is an easy decision to keep the number off of Wikipedia until (presumably) 6/12/2024.

PK-WIKI (talk) 22:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with PK-WIKI. Also, a sentence like "Multiple sources noted Tom Brady's uniform #12 would be retired during a ceremony honoring his contributions to the Patriots over his career in September 2023. However, the team has made no announcements regarding the number retirement since and thus it is unclear whether the Patriots have formally retired the number." Then add the conflicting sources and leave it at that until a more definitive source comes out. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:45, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. I'm doubtful that the number actually is retired. Sometimes sports journalists just say clickbaity stuff like that, even reputable ones. I mean, this is Tom Brady we're talking about. If the number really was retired, there would be tons of sources and commentary about it. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 22:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, @WikiOriginal-9. That was truly something I could agree with. After seeing the length of this talk page regarding this subject, I swore I crawled out from under my rock too late and missed the big news. Just remember, we do things officially here at Wikipedia. Example: When a player breaks his leg on Sunday and is out for the year, we cannot amended his page to 'Injured reserve' until it becomes official. And Tom Brady's number retirement trumps any injury in the NFL. @@ Bringingthewood (talk) 23:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I dont think it is likely, in this day and age, that an arguable GOAT like Brady had his number retired without it being explicit from the team. The NFL domain experts that provided writeups of the event either did not mention a number retirement, or criticized the Patriots for not retiring it yet. Pro-football-reference and the Pro Football Hall of Fame has 12 in their retired number listings, but do not provide other context. I hate to write them off here, but I'll give more weight to the expert full writeups. It seems most likely that some reports confused his general retirement ceremony for an actual number retirement. My preference is to exclude any mention, as it is extremely unreliable. Only if there is no consensus for that should a mention of conflicting sources be included. —Bagumba (talk) 01:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Now that I think about it a little more, I agree and lean towards Bagumba's take, or a note if some want that. This whole thing is a little silly, you'd think one of the biggest sports franchises in the world would take some care about keeping proper records, at least a spot on their website for retired numbers so we wouldn't need a whole discussion about this lol. ULPS ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:16, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Another great response. Right on the money! @ULPS!! Funny, with all this talk page comedy and a place to enjoy ourselves like Wikipedia ... maybe all of us, at least in America will put this much thought into the next election. November will be here before we know it. I think Tom Brady would do a good job as President ... but only if his number is truly retired. Bringingthewood (talk) 01:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Personally I only vote for players with their numbers officially retired ULPS ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

@ULPS has my vote! Bringingthewood (talk) 03:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't call the Pro Football Hall of Fame a self-published source as understood in Wikipedia terms. But this is a case where there is no clear confirmation that the number is actually and officially retired. So we need to leave it off. oknazevad (talk) 02:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @Bagumba to 'exclude any mention'. A couple of months ago I read this and figured the other sources jumped the gun with the number being retired. Besides, the NFL Network would have spoken about it like the birth of a child anyway. This source came out a day later and unless they were blind or just hate the organization, it looks like it didn't happen yet. https://www.masslive.com/patriots/2023/09/no-statue-no-retired-12-patriots-tom-brady-ceremony-under-delivers-vautour.html Bringingthewood (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Consensus seems clear so I've gone ahead and removed it. Feel free to change the wording as necessary. Jessintime (talk) 18:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

While this may seem trivial to address, there are usually discrepancies with the statweek in active player infoboxes once the regular season is over. Some articles have it as "Career NFL statistics as of Week 18, XXXX" and some have "Career NFL statistics as of XXXX". Is there any consensus on this? HappyBoi3892 (talk) 22:49, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@HappyBoi3892 Not sure about a consensus, but I do know of an editor who keeps the week 18 there at the end. At the beginning I wasn't sure, but it does show that the stats were finalized for the season, which is a good thing. In the past I saw just the statseason there and the stats were not updated for the last three weeks. But it looks like an editor is removing the week as we speak. Bringingthewood (talk) 01:07, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Like with this edit C. J. Gardner-Johnson, the stats were updated and the week was removed for the following season. If it's a credible editor who does this, that's great, but I always check to see if the numbers are right when week 18 was removed. It's another chore, but with no consensus I cannot confront each party and point fingers (like or dislike). Bringingthewood (talk) 01:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I personally remove statweek at the end of the season. But I don't think there's consensus on the subject. Hey man im josh (talk) 01:21, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, this was my original thinking. @Hey man im josh brought this up to me in 2022 when I removed it from JPP. Another editor liked it there. Again, if it shows certainty it's great. But you have people now that actually add a sack when the game is still going on. As long as the numbers are correct, so be it. Maybe a consensus will come around one day. It's like putting games played/started in bold. I really think that's way too trivial, but that's me. Bringingthewood (talk) 02:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

There's a discussion taking place at Village Pump (policy), concerning the NFL Draft. GoodDay (talk) 05:03, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

This led to this RFC: WP:VPP#RfC on capitalization in "NFL_Draft"/"National Football League draft" etc. – Dicklyon (talk) 04:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Which is an opinion survey and not an WP:RM. Dicklyon, what do you plan to do with the results of the survey? If you plan to do an RM please do it again at National Football League Draft, where the most readers and editors will be made aware of the process (because of the tag put at the top of the page) and not at a related but less obscure page. Or is it way too soon after the last one in April, which was a not-even-close no consensus. Please let us know, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:03, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Can someone take a look at the article Franchise tag? There seems to have been an edit war there that has left a weird stub. I personally think some of the information that was lost in the edit war was relevant, but even if you disagree, it's stubby and needs to be re-written IMO. 69.162.253.10 (talk) 06:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

If I'm reading it correctly, a large amount was moved out in 2021. It was done by an experienced editor who cited his reasoning why. Looks like everyone moved forward from that point on. Maybe you should try to re-write the parts you believe should be re-written. Don't worry about a mistake being made, if someone doesn't like it, they will revert it. I have no doubt about that. :) Bringingthewood (talk) 06:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

If you are referring to these table/lists, I'd suggest establishing consensus here for its inclusion.—Bagumba (talk) 08:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes Mr. IP user, I do agree with @Bagumba 100%, no joke, you should establish consensus. And there's no rush to do so, because at this time we're actually trying to figure out if we should use a capital letter. Bringingthewood (talk) 04:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

You may be interested in a proposal on whether to capitalize the "Draft" in National Football League Draft, taking place at the village pump. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:31, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

That certainly is not the place for a WP:RM discussion. Seems a tangential location and almost picked at random (and note that no notices have been placed atop the articles listed for change, which are only partial because if the NFL Draft page is lowercased then the scores of related pages will join it within minutes, so readers of the articles have no clue that an attempt at a drastic title change has been rolling). Since requested moves have been handled on Wikipedia by WP:RM, and if the result is contested they move to the RM review page, and since no notices appear atop the articles being targeted, is there an administrator here who can step in and close the fake RM? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

@Randy Kryn: To avoid accusations of WP:CANVASSing, your concern might be better at a neutral location like WP:AN. Feel free to strike my comment if you choose to delete yours. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 15:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I'll strike asking for an admin here, but placing an RfC at Village Pump (policy) for a name change is so irregular I would think a comment here is not canvassing as much as opining. The RfC also seems incorrect in stating that prior RM's were all closed as "no consensus". I don't think this is accurate but can't find a list of RM's on the topic, does someone have such a list, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:30, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

There was a highly irregular RM at Talk:2016 NFL Draft (a new unwatched article) that closed with a consensus to capitalize. It was a tiny discussion, inappropriately extended to everywhere without notification. Also note that nom has said "Search results are about evenly split... Given no clear 'winner' using search results, we should default to the name given to this event by the organization holding it." and since there was nobody who knew anything about capitalization and title P&G there, nobody corrected that wrong idea. Dicklyon (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

That discussion seems fine, and brought the page back to uppercasing after an apparently undiscussed move to lowercase. Is that the only time an "NFL Draft" page has been nominated for RM? It seemed to have just fixed an improper controversial bold move. As for this new RfC at what seems a tangential location, it is not an WP:RM and so wouldn't even count towards a title change, it would just provide a survey opinion. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:58, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

...note that no notices have been placed atop the articles listed for change, which are only partial because if the NFL Draft page is lowercased then the scores of related pages will join it within minutes, so readers of the articles have no clue that an attempt at a drastic title change has been rolling...: That's more or less the same thing that happened at Talk:2016 NFL Draft § Requested move 30 April 2016—the move request was only for 2016 NFL draft, with no notifications left on the main NFL draft or the other annual NFL draft pages. "WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY", someone wrote. And nobody seemed to care much about that oversight at the move review at Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2016 July § 2016 NFL Draft. Two "wrongs" don't make a right, but one should show the same energy in both cases if you truly want to be sincere about "proper notification". This whole "NFL draft" vs. "NFL Draft" has been a general shitshow. —Bagumba (talk) 05:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a tale as old as time. I remember it used to be at "D', then it was "d" for a while, now it's "D" again. I've lost track of how many times it's been changed. Looking at National Football League Draft, looks like there were even more moves back-and-forth earlier on. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 05:17, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I took a stab at the timeline here —Bagumba (talk) 07:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the comprehensive history Bagumba. It shows only two Requested Move discussions, the latest not too long ago. Where we're at now is Dicklyon taking a survey in the form of a request for editors to comment and to join the survey. The survey question is "Regarding the capitalization in "NFL Draft"/"National Football League draft" etc., should it be capitalized "Draft", or lowercase "draft", in article text and titles? With what exceptions, if any?" I don't know what anyone is going to do with the results of that survey, or what analysis is planned for it. In any case, it's a very limited survey, in one of Wikipedia's backrooms. So far many of the usual lowercasers have come by to say "lowercase", and uppercasers say "uppercase", all the regulars thinking they have it right. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:41, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome. —Bagumba (talk) 05:06, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

@Randy Kryn: It's clear forum shopping and canvassing for additional support prior to what's going to be another requested move. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

At least waiting until after the 2024 Draft is over and possibly after the Super Bowl (or is it "super bowl"?). My concern was that Dicklyon hasn't said (at least I haven't seen) that this RfC is just an opinion poll, so wondering if he intends to use it to actually move pages. The pages already moved in the midst of that RfC indicate that he should at least address that concern, and if the intention is to move pages because of the RfC it should be ended now due to it being the wrong venue (my interests in this are that NFL Draft is by far the way Americans view the topic, so it should be kept as a proper name, as well as to help assure the integrity of WP:RM as the venue to request such changes). Randy Kryn (talk) 23:23, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Then let me be clear to him @Randy Kryn. @Dicklyon is quite the experienced user and should know when to drop the stick (they clearly do not), but to be crystal clear to them, I will personally revert the moves if they take place based off this RfC without an additional move discussion. The moves are obviously not non-controversial, so they should not be moved without a proper RM discussion. Hey man im josh (talk) 23:32, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

IMHO the page moves concerning the USFL Draft page & it's Year Draft pages, should be undone. Unilateral page moves, only create tension & shouldn't be happening, while this RFC is in progress. GoodDay (talk) 23:41, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree that they should be undone and taken to an RM solely because of the timing. As for being correctly moved, maybe they were, but I'm not at all familiar with the USFL (busy doing other things between 1983 and 1985 and likely missed the league entirely except for superficial attention). In contrast, the NFL Draft is so familiar to American football fans in its uppercased form that it has become a proper name (and could be called a second NFL cultural holiday along with the Super Bowl). The USFL event, unlike the pageantry and attention focused on the NFL Draft, maybe not so much a proper name as a process. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:11, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

There is an entry for Earl Putnam (1932-2006), who played for the Cardinals in 1954. Besides the incorrect Subject title, his name is misspelled throughout. It's PUTMAN. Pro Football Reference got it right: Earl Putman Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com As did his obituary: Earl Putman Obituary (2006) - Phoenix, AZ - The Arizona Republic (legacy.com) Hawthorne61 (talk) 13:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Looks like that's been pretty much fixed today. Thanks. Dicklyon (talk) 05:44, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Thoughts on the above-titled newly created article? I'm doubtful of its relevance to Wikipedia because the list lacks conclusive inclusion criteria (i.e. what constitutes a bust?). « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 23:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I suppose if they added multiple citations for each player being a bust, that would do the trick. There aren't any citations currently. Harper J. Cole (talk) 23:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

There was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of NFL Draft busts in 2006. Among others, WP:UNDUE and WP:BLP would need to be addressed.—Bagumba (talk) 00:30, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Note the page, that was moved back to Draft mode, has since been unilaterally lower-cased. GoodDay (talk) 09:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

GoodDay, yes, Dicklyon moved the title for some reason. Since it is a draft no reason to make a fuss about it, although if it ever gets mainspaced it would be mainspaced under the standard uppercase 'Draft'. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

There's nothing standard about capping "draft busts". It was already lowercase in the article, and was clearly not part of any proper name. Dicklyon (talk) 16:20, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: Please stop pushing that narrative until the main article is lowercased. Until then, the capitalization of "Draft" was appropriate. If you continue to do so without consensus then it's clearly disruptive behaviour. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:34, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Apart from the 'Draft or draft' issue, I don't think 'Busts' should be capitalized. ArglebargleIV (talk) 17:05, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Never mind, it's been lowercased. ArglebargleIV (talk) 17:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Anyone who cares about getting this right should at least review how the concept of "draft bust" is treated in the news, e.g. "NFL's 10 biggest draft busts", and books "A draft bust is a player who fails to live up to the expectations of their draft position.". Dicklyon (talk) 21:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I do think most of us are in agreement that what the definition of a bust needs work. It's far too subjective and, without serious work and a defined inclusion criteria, I'd personally vote for deletion if it were sent to AfD. Hey man im josh (talk) 23:36, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Definitely agree. But I was just talking about the lowercase styling of "draft bust". It's not a bust of the NFL draft itself. Dicklyon (talk) 05:46, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Two thoughts, one conceptual and one practical. Conceptually, an article like that can exist, but probably with a somewhat more weaselly title like List of NFL players considered draft busts. This is similar to List of films considered the worst. There are plenty of NFL draft bust articles, though they're often listicles from quasi-reliable sources. The concept is probably notable. From a practical standpoint, having that much text in a table is a total non-starter. It's unreadable. Mackensen (talk) 17:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, it would be better served as an article, not a list. The article could cover what major source consider is a bust and then provide some clearly notable examples. Trey Lance and Henry Ruggs are two examples that make me think the current iteration as a list doesn't make sense. Lance has only been in the league 3 seasons (Jordan Love just became the starter in his fourth season) and Ruggs wasn't so much a "bust" in the likely definition of the term (i.e. he was talented, he just went to jail). « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I have nominated List of Carolina Panthers seasons for featured list removal. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured list criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks; editors may declare to "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:06, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

What is the intent, scope or purpose of these "broadcasters" lists. Browsing the other teams, I can't seem to nail down what the actual content is supposed to be. Is it a historical list of radio and TV broadcast channels/companies, a list of announcers, a combination? Honestly, this category of NFL team lists is in really bad shape, with a bunch looking like the Packers one (one or no source stubs), redirecting to a simple table in the team page or a huge amalgamation of anything related to broadcasting. Just trying to understand how I would even go about improving this article. Thanks for any help. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 23:09, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

• Looking at, for example, San Francisco 49ers broadcasters, it seems to be a list of the historical radio broadcasters and its announcers? BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:20, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I've noticed recently, that USFL Draft was moved to USFL draft & likewise the year draft pages were moved (example 1983 USFL Draft to 1983 USFL draft) causing inconsistencies among those pages, without RMs being held. GoodDay (talk) 05:55, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

See stats. Dicklyon (talk) 06:40, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't know enough about the league to know if this is a correct move sequence or not, but maybe Dicklyon thinks or hopes that these new mass moves are a prelude to using the fake RM at an RfC to change NFL Draft pages. That fake RM is nothing more than a poorly attended opinion survey since it is not being done at the proper location for page moves, WP:RM (or at the National Football League Draft page, to be precise, which is the ultimate trophy for both college players and for Dicklyon). Randy Kryn (talk) 15:38, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Not exactly mass moves; there are only 10 in Category:United States Football League drafts. If anyone sees a reason for capping draft there, let's hear it. If someone wants to revert and go through an RM process, we could do that. See WP:BRD. Dicklyon (talk) 18:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

If I may put a response in here, please note that Dicklyon says that if someone wants to revert his undiscussed moves they will have to "go through an RM process". Dicklyon is correct, WP:RM is the only place where moves such as these can actually be acted upon. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:57, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I noticed you've unilaterally moved a Draft page from Draft:National Football League Draft Busts to Draft:National Football League draft busts. You should've sought a consensus for that move, first. GoodDay (talk) 09:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted the move, as it very clearly has no consensus and @Dicklyon knows this. As such, it's clearly disruptive editing and a controversial move that should not have been carried out. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

So you're claiming that "Draft Busts" is a proper name, or what? You're funny, man. Dicklyon (talk) 20:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: Playing coy is not helpful. It's obvious to you, myself, and others, that you should not have downcased "Draft" to "draft". Especially considering you recently started a discussion about down casing "Draft" and had multiple inappropriate moves reverted recently. You are experienced enough to not have done this by accident and if it was an accident, then perhaps you should not be moving pages at all. It's behaviour like this that has led to you being brought to ANI in the past. Hey man im josh (talk) 23:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Those page moves should be undone. It only creates tension, making such unilateral moves, while a possible related RFC is in progress. GoodDay (talk) 23:43, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Did anyone anywhere ever claim that USFL Draft, or United States Football League Draft, was a proper name? So far not. These terms have never (as far as I can tell) even been used in the USFL draft article. I don't see how what I did could be construed as controversial, but if you disagree with it, undo it and we will discuss. Dicklyon (talk) 05:50, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

The timing of your page moves, rubs the wrong way. GoodDay (talk) 05:56, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Is it right for Dicklyon to be moving all Draft articles non-NFL to lowercase titles? As the discussion on it is going on? See e.g. [24] and [25]? BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:33, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

They should be undone, as they didn't go through an RM. GoodDay (talk) 20:43, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Were the American Football League draft & the 1960 to 1966 draft pages, always in lowercase style? GoodDay (talk) 09:20, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Based on the revision history, they were moved from upper case to lower back in 2014. Harper J. Cole (talk) 12:39, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

By none other than Dicklyon... BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:46, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I have nominated List of Los Angeles Rams head coaches for featured list removal. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured list criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks; editors may declare to "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:32, 16 January 2024 (UTC)