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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
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This talk page was getting too large and unwieldy, and there was a cycle of claim and counter claim - so no offence to anyone I have archived it here, so anyway would anyone care to comment on how this article could be improved?, succinctly of course. Pahari Sahib 03:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The article can be discussed by giving the due weightage to Negative Impact of the British occupation of the Indian subcontinent (euphemistically referred to as 'the Raj' in Britain) which are massive;
The presence of foreign rule is itself the biggest negative impact on any country, would British Like to be ruled and expolited by the Germans & French and treated as sub-humans as they treated most of the people in the former colonies. It is beyond the scope of the article, What Mughals did to the Indian economy and the populace, that can be discussed in a separate article, what we are talking here is the impact of British Raj.
Some of the reforms and development activities brought about by the British is nothing in comparison to the damage and distruction they imposed on the ancient civilisation and made the mess out of it. Some of the development was brought about to maximise the expolitation of the resources like the construction of railway lines or Public libraries etc was also negligible in comparison to billions of dollars that was shipped to England in 250 plus years.
Following parameters can be used to determine the exact state of Indian economy at the time of Independence in 1947!
I hope this might help in improving the article! --Himhifi 09:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
To user:Pahari Sahib, user:Rueben lys, user:Desione, and user:Himhifi: In the next couple of weeks, I will be adding the material I have been working on. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
This page is not a forum for general discussion about British Raj/Archive 3. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about British Raj/Archive 3 at the Reference desk. |
"The term 'the Raj' is a propaganda term and should be avoided as it is not neutral" - The drive by the British elite to rewrite and deny history by euphemistically referring to the occupation of India as 'the Raj' should be resisted. The term 'the Raj' is essentially a propaganda term and hence not neutral. Ideally the article itself should not be called 'the Raj' but unfortunately it has, particularly in Britain, become common usage. It is important therefore that a POV is maintained which represents the view taken by most of the world, which presents the British occupation of India as essentially a criminal activity. Similar to the POV taken when describing the Italian Mafia or the Chicago Mob. They did do a few good things but mostly it was murder and mayhem. --txbangert, 19 April 2008
"Anarchy, Bloodshed and corruption." - Company rule in fact brought peace to the lands it controlled. Yes it taxed the general populace, but the Company's army was so strong that internal order was well maintained, and the surrounding powers were fearful of provoking the Company with incursions. The peak of "anarchy" in India was in the first half of the 18th century, before Company control - mainly due to the Persian invasion and internal power struggles.
"Racial discrimination and Slavery." - slavery was certainly nothing new in India, it had always existed. The East India Company actually outlawed slavery in 1842 - for the first time in Indian history. In any empire there is always discrimination between the foreign ruling elite, and the subject peoples, whether this was simply and only a question of "race" is questionable. The British always enjoyed a high degree of social interaction with Indian nobility, although there were many social barriers that kept them aloof from the general populace. Many British took Indian wives.
--Proof of slavery always existing in India? Yeah, thought so. Further, the Empire itself was based on racial discrimination, and the subjugation of those considered inherently inferior. Hinduism was found 'immoral' and 'backward' and any economic freedoms were constrained for Indians (salt laws are one example).
"Mass murders and genocide" "Crimes against humanity." - the worst case is probably Amritsar in 1919, where less than 300 unarmed Indian protestors were shot dead by Indian troops (under British command). This was of course a criminal act. It was undertaken after a high state of tension in the city, 5 European males had been murdered, and one European female had been almost beaten to death. The population had been warned that any further demonstrations would be put down with force, however, the manner in which it was carried out was highly questionable as the crowd had no escape route - but still very mild compared to the Moguls.
--'Mild'. I expected nothing less from colonial apologists. Further, this was not the worst case. The famines in Bengal were the worst cases. Millions dead. Never happened before. Yes, there were famines before, but never on this scale, since most of the grain was taxed and exported to Britain.
"Divide and Rule policy, Partition of India on religious lines." Pakistan, right? As you mentioned before, you seem to view the sovereign nation of Pakistan as a British plot. There are hundreds of millions of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who would disagree with you. I think this really gives you away as an extreme Indian nationalist, which also explains many of your unreasonable anti-British outbursts. The ML was a real grass roots Muslim political movement; the British certainly never controlled it, nor Jinnah. The British actually expanded the cultural scope and land mass of India. Assam, Nagaland, Mizoram, Arunachal Pradesh, Manipur, Sikkim, the Andaman & Nicobar Islands and Meghalaya had NEVER been ruled from India before the Britsh arrived - they had never even been controlled by an Indian ruler, also the British took land from Nepal, which is now part of the Republic of India. Parts of Nagaland had been fully independent from India until the 1920's! These British land grabs were greedily kept on by the Republic of India. (There were no local referendums, to give such "annexed" peoples any choice in the matter, and India has been fighting separatist rebels ever since.)
"suppression of basic human rights, self determination etc" - well tell me of an empire in the last 4000 years that didn't do that! If any conquering nation gives its provinces/colonies "basic human rights, self determination" it commits suicide as a functional empire. But in all fairness, many British laws which attacked long established Hindu culture, actually promoted basic human rights. For example, the 1856 act which authorised the re-marriage of Hindu widows, and gave them property rights after the death of their husbands. And what about Sati? What about in 1802 when British troops had to be sent to Bengal's Sagar Island to stop the time honoured tradition of throwing babies into the river as human sacrifices - was this also a "suppression of basic human rights"?, to outlaw female infanticide - was this also a "suppression of basic human rights"?
"Transfer of countries wealth to Great Britain." - yes, like I say, that's what any empire did. During some years in the 1930's however, the UK actually had a trade deficit with India.
--don't kid yourself. huge trade barriers destroyed indian industries and the British just exploited a huge consumer market in these industries by developing their own and selling it back to the Indians. And the point really isn't that 'all empires did this'. The point is it is excluded in this article, and what happened in other empires is thoroughly irrelevant to this article. Just because some others may have been worse does not excuse what actually happened in India.
"Some of the development was brought about to maximize the exploitation of the resources like the construction of railway lines" - The British could have sucked India dry without building one of the world's best railway networks, a dozen fantastic bridges, a great new capital at New Delhi, etc. If you doubt this, read up on the Belgian Congo. You make these HUGE accusations, and yet you never seem to back up your claims. Building such things wasn't "nothing" - “nothing" is in fact what the Spanish and Portuguese did in their colonies - that was "nothing".
"would British Like to be ruled and exploited by the Germans & French and treated as sub-humans as they treated most of the people in the former colonies." Germanic tribes did in fact invade England, and so did the French (Normans) - they did rule harshly, they did exploit, yet the English don't complain about them and call them "evil", it's just history. Also your use of the word "sub-humans" is also highly emotional and questionable - and in some cases actually insulting. So the many thousands of British that took Indian wives, they considered their wives "sub-human" did they? And their children semi-sub-human? I have read a hundred memoirs from British India (you should try reading at least one) and I consider what you're saying is unfair and outlandish. My wife is also from India. She is from the state of Meghalaya. If I may furnish you with a personal example, her grandnother lived to a great old age and remembered the British well. In her opinion, Shillong (state capital) was cleaner, safer and the Khasi people (her community)had more self determination under the British. This is all true in fact. Under the British the Khasis were semi-autonomous, nowadays much of what they do is controlled by central government, which as a relatively small community in India, they have no power to control. Old photos of British Shillong reveal a cleaner city, there's also more unrest these days. My main problem is you seem to make sweeping generalizations about this extremely deep and complex subject (British India). Any serious student of the topic is always struck by the serious contradictions of British rule, and the highly distinctive phases it went through - if you use strange, sweeping, highly simplistic and horribly emotive words like "evil" and "sub-humans" I don't think you're suited to make any neutral amendments to what is already a neutral and fair article.
The British Raj was very very complex; it was both good & bad. In some ways it was useful to India, in other ways it exploited her. However, you tend to think that without the British, the steep economic decline of the early to mid 18th century (nothing to do with the Brits by the way) would have corrected itself - would it? Who is to say that without the British, India today would not be a patchwork of countries and nationalities (like Europe), just as it was when the British began to take over? Who is to say that the manic civil wars and Persian incursions of the early to mid 18th century would not have continued for another 200 years? If it was only the British that kept India down, why have other former British Asian colonies like Hong Kong, Singapore and Malaysia done so well, whilst India has made such slow progress? And how did 0.25% of India's population (the British) tyrannize the remaining 99.75% of the population? They could not have done it even if they had wanted to - the truth is there was massive collaboration at all levels of Indian society.
--Don't kid yourself (part II) You need to educate yourself about the attempts to hack away at the cultural underpinnings of India in an attempt to project 'inherent superiority' (http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/history_essays_frameset.htm). Various things including Aryan Invasion Theory and dismissal of all Indian history as 'nonexistant'. It was a shameless attempt, but one that failed.
TB124.187.172.58 (talk) 22:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
"--Proof of slavery always existing in India? Yeah, thought so."
What's that supposed to mean? Of course there was slavery in Mogul India! Of course there was slavery in Ancient India! This is VERY basic stuff.
"the Empire itself was based on racial discrimination, and the subjugation of those considered inherently inferior. Hinduism was found 'immoral' and 'backward'"
By some yes, but not by all. When the Europeans viewed things like Sati, some did come to this conclusion. But any discrimination against Hindus by the British, was nothing compared to what Auragzeb did.
"huge trade barriers destroyed indian industries"
Firstly, throughout the 18th century there were huge technological advancements in Europe (mostly Britain) that made things like cloth manufacture far more efficient, in the 18th century, this technology was never adopted by independent Indian manufacturers, even in areas outside British control (ie: Punjab) so 18th century Indian cloth exports, in many ways, died a natural death. Also, terrible internal strife and conflict wrecked the Indian economy decades before the first British conquests. Perhaps the British are guilty of not rebuilding or modernizing the Indian economy, but when they took it over, it was already wrecked ("destroyed") and inefficient, so the British can not be accused of making it so. Even college books from The Republic of India teach this.
"--Don't kid yourself (part II) You need to educate yourself about the attempts to hack away at the cultural underpinnings of India in an attempt to project 'inherent superiority' (http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/history_essays_frameset.htm). Various things including Aryan Invasion Theory and dismissal of all Indian history as 'nonexistant'. It was a shameless attempt, but one that failed."
Your link seems to be some kind of fundamentalist Hindu blog - PLEASE!!!! Do you know how few British there were in India? I'll tell you, 1 in 400. How can so few people "hack away at the cultural underpinnings of India"? - it's pure propaganda, it's rubbish. The British knew that the one thing that was most likely to spark rebellion in India was if the Hindus or Muslims felt that their religions were being attacked, and they were very careful to leave religious practice alone as much as possible, because they understood that this was the easiest way to keep the peace. As Marx said, "religion is the opium of the masses". Millions of Indians went there whole lives without ever seeing a European. The vast Indian princely states had internal cultural and religious autonomy.
"The famines in Bengal were the worst cases. Millions dead. Never happened before. Yes, there were famines before, but never on this scale, since most of the grain was taxed and exported to Britain."
The main causes of the famine, were that Burma, British India's rice basket, was under Japanese control and the harvest failed. There were extra British mouths to feed in India - but they only accounted for a small percentage of actual food consumption. "Most of the grain was exported to Britain" - this is a lie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.174.119 (talk) 22:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.172.58 (talk) 14:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
STOP: What you are writing is your POV it has nothing to do with the reality, Wikipedia is the serious project it can't be used for glorifying colonialism, Racism, fascism, slavery, starvation, misery, economic distruction and crimes against humanity which has lead to distruction of sub-continent. British Empire is collapsed by the burden of misery of death and distruction it has brought in the life of millions of people around the Globe. Billion of dollars are stolen from India and you are telling, it was all right for them to steal money from India, what a joke? Millions of people are killed and you are telling it was all right for them to kill in order to rule and supress people. British was the main architect of the partition of the country and it has done irreversible damage leading to millions of death. You are telling it was right to live like a second class citizen in your own land, this is also your POV and goes against the policy of any modern nation in the world. The construction work in India was done keeping in mind their long term objectives in the sub-continent. They built those things for their own purpose and better exploitation of the resources, because they had thought that they would rule India forever. Same way as they are ruling the stolen land of Australia, Canada & Newzealand(Now Independent but mostly British). Where the percentage of Indigenous people was too low and genocide was too high to offer strong resistance to the criminal Empire. Did you want to bring Indians on the verge of extinction like Australian Aborignees who are suffering death, disease and poverty in their own country at the hands of descendants of British.
British Raj was overwhelmingly bad for India and can't be justified or glorified for whatever reasons. In today's India the largest and most successful democracy even a muslim can become a president (Abdul Kalam) and sikh can become Prime Minister(Manmohan Singh) that is not possible in UK any time soon, so stop spreading untruth about India. --Himhifi 09:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I tend to concur with Desione. I can see the Pro British bias in Rockybiggs language. Would recomment a more neutral stand. AJ-India (talk) 17:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Folks, please keep in mind that we are talking about history, not present or future. I assume we all are well aware of the present. Thank you. And my apologies to those whose sentiments I may have hurt while making my points. Desione (talk) 09:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Deleted, this is a talk page to improve the article not a forum please abstain from making personal attacks against other editors and respect the talk page guidelines.--Trinityfactor (talk) 08:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
The editors like Fowler & Fowler are painting a rosy picture of the colonial empire and presenting a wrong and biased British point of view which is against the wikipedia policies. You have to include in appropriate manner the negative impact on the socio-economic condition of the country which led to revolt against the presence of British rule in India. If people were not killed and discriminated and country was prosperous why Indians wanted to get rid of catastrophic and distructive British rule.
The previous version on Prelude to the Raj (8th March) was more balanced and present a better Point of view about the British policies which has led to discontent among the Indian public and hence revolt against the Raj. Hence restored. --Trinityfactor (talk) 09:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Ever since the days of the Roman Empire, the balance of trade between Europe and India had always been in India's favour, with Europe exchanging much of its gold and silver for luxury goods, textile, and spices from India. The rule of British East India Company signified the reversal of this historic balance of trade (which remained in India's favour for the first 150 years of company operations) for the first time and heralded the beginning of an almost 250 year long British rule in India.
On 31 December 1600, Queen Elizabeth I of England granted a royal charter to the British East India Company for carrying out trade with the East. In 1608, East India Company ships arrived in India and docked at port city of Surat, Gujarat. In 1612, British traders battled the Portuguese at the Battle of Swally, gaining the favour of the Mughal emperor Jahangir. In 1615, King James I sent Sir Thomas Roe as his ambassador to Emperor Jahangir's court, which lead to a treaty allowing East India Company "freedom answerable to their own desires; to sell, buy, and to transport into their country at their pleasure".[1] Starting with the first factory, setup in 1612, in the city of Surat, the company gradually establish other trading posts or "factories" which initiated a process that would lead to the emergence of the modern day cities of Mumbai, Chennai, and Kolkata.
In 1659, Aurangzeb, the last of the great Mughals, took over the reigns of the Mughal Empire and started waging wars for gaining new territories and enacting laws that interfered with non-Muslim worship. While the wars drained the treasury and bled the farmers through taxes, Aurangzeb's religious policies lead to revolts within the Mughal Empire. These factors would ultimately lead to the demise of Mughal Empire. In 1670, King Charles II granted the company the right to acquire territory, raise an army, mint its own money, and exercise legal jurisdiction in areas under its control. Due to Aurangzeb's death in 1707 and warring Mughal provinces, the East India Company found itself in a unique position to start extending areas under its control.
In 1757, Mir Jafar, the ambitious commander in chief of the army of Siraj Ud Daulah, the Nawab of Bengal, secretly connived with the British asking for support to overthrow the Nawab in return for trade grants. At the Battle of Plassey, Mir Jafar's forces betrayed the Nawab allowing the relatively small British force commanded by Robert Clive to win the battle. Jafar was installed on the throne of Bengal which became a British protectorate. Clive gained access to Bengal's treasury and netted £2.5m for the company and £234,000 for himself.[2] At the time, an average British nobleman could live a life of luxury on an annual income of £800.[3]. The battle transformed British perspective as they realised their strength and potential to conquer smaller Indian kingdoms, and marked the beginning of the imperial or colonial era.
A double system of government was then established in Bengal with administration, revenue collection, and justice under the nominal Nawab and the power to write bills against the treasury distributed among various company officials. This lead to a great deal of corruption enriching many in the company.[4] An unrequited trade involving use of India's own resources to fund exports to Britain was also created leading to a huge siphoning of wealth to Britain while impoverishing Bengal. Within a few years, India's historic positive balance of trade with Europe was gone.[5]
After defeating Shah Alam II in Battle of Buxar (1764), the East India Company obtained right to collect taxes over much of eastern India (the regions currently occupied by Indian states of Bihar, Jharkhand, Orissa, and West Bengal along with the country of Bangladesh). In exchange, Shah Alam got an annual tribute of £300,000 and administrative rights over Allahabad and Kora. East India Company now administered a region with a population of 25 million and an annual revenue that was half of England's.[6]
Within the next five years, revenues from land tax tripled leading to many farmers paying 2/3rd of their produce as tax - an unprecedented amount both by historical and modern standards. This tax was transferred to Britain in form of dividends to shareholders of East India Company and through unrequited trade. Unlike under the Mughals, when farmers were unable to pay taxes as a result of crop failure, their lands were auctioned off.
“ | There were not five men of principal left in the Presidency - Robert Clive.[7] | ” |
In early 1769, disregarding all warnings of an approaching drought,[8] the East India Company continued strict land tax enforcement, increased land taxes in April 1770, and prevented hoarding of food grains by merchants anticipating higher prices during drought. Famines, as a result of fluctuating monsoon rains were not new to India; however, as a result of these policies and corrupt governance, what was expected to be a drought turned into a severe famine killing an unprecedented 10 million people (1/3rd of Bengal's population at the time) within a period of six months. Strict enforcement of land tax continued. In the year immediately following the famine, tax revenues collected by British East India Company increased as compared to the year immediately preceding the famine.[9]
In 1773, the British Parliament granted regulatory control over East India Company to the British government and established the post of Governor-General of India.[10] Warren Hastings was appointed as the first Governor General of India. Later, in 1774, the British Parliament passed the Pitt's India Act which created a Board of Control overseeing the administration of East India Company.[11] During the proceedings of Pitt's India Act, Edmund Burke was the lone parliamentarian who brought attention to what he perceived to be British East India Company misrule in India.[12]
“ | Every rupee of profit made by an Englishman is lost forever to India - Edmund Burke, British Parliamentarian, 1783[13] | ” |
Hastings, under pressure of East India Company directors to return profits, started to reorganise company operations. [14] He moved the administrative offices from Murshidabad to Calcutta, halved the stipend of titular Nawab of Bengal to £160,000, withdrew the tribute of £300,000 to Shah Alam II, and resold Allahabad and Kora to Oudh.
Hastings remained in India until 1784 and was succeeded by Cornwallis, who initiated the Permanent Settlement, whereby an agreement in perpetuity was reached with zamindars or landlords for the collection of revenue. For the next fifty years, the British were engaged in attempts to eliminate Indian rivals.
Further acts, such as the Charter Act of 1813 and the Charter Act of 1833, further defined the relationship of the Company and the British government.
At the turn of the 19th century, Governor-General Lord Wellesley's (brother of the Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington) began expanding the Company's domain on a large scale, finally defeating Tippu Sultan (also spelled Tippoo Sultan) with the help of the Nizam of Hyderbad, annexing Mysore in southern India, and removing all French influence from the subcontinent. In the mid-19th century, Governor-General Lord Dalhousie launched perhaps the Company's most ambitious expansion, defeating the Sikhs in the Anglo-Sikh Wars (and annexing the Punjab with the exception of the Phulkian States) and subduing Burma in the Second Burmese War. He also justified the takeover of small princely states such as Satara, Sambalpur, Jhansi, and Nagpur by way of the doctrine of lapse, which permitted the Company to annex any princely state whose ruler had died without a male heir. The annexation of Oudh in 1856 proved to be the Company's final territorial acquisition. --Trinityfactor (talk) 09:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
The above isn't that bad - the latter half of the 18th century was the direst period of exploitation, nevertheless -
What about Siraj's attack on Calcutta in 1756? The British merely wanted to fortify Calcutta, to ward off an inevitable French attack (due to the 7 Years War) - Siraj, paranoid by nature, saw this as a threat to his authority, and was the first to initiate military action. Calcutta was the Company's principle settlement in India. I am very surprised this absolutely seminal event is not mentioned. Siraj's attack on Calcutta (regardless of his motives) was a declaration, and an act of war, against Great Britain, or at the very least, against the East India Company. You make it sound as if the Company had no grievances with Siraj, but initiated a campaign against him without provocation. You go into great detail about Hasting's dodgy dealings - but overlook the destruction of Calcutta, and the complete annihilation of its European inhabitants.
"...allowing the relatively small British force commanded by Robert Clive to win the battle."
In the battle of Plassey the odds were about 13 to 1 against Clive, with Mir Jafa's forces, the odds would have been around 20 to 1. At 13 to 1 odds, the British still took amazingly light casualties. Would they have been necessarily overwhelmed and defeated at 20-1 odds? Maybe, maybe not - it's pure conjecture. Mir jaffa certainly assisted a British victory, but I think stating that he "allowed" it is a bit too strong. Also, it is unmentioned that Mir jaffa actually rebelled against British rule some years later.
"Within the next five years, revenues from land tax tripled leading to many farmers paying 2/3rd of their produce as tax - an unprecedented amount both by historical and modern standards. This tax was transferred to Britain in form of dividends to shareholders of East India Company and through unrequited trade."
What, all of it? The governance of India was not free. Despite everything you say about Company rule - order was maintained. Banditry was crushed, the law courts were maintained, and a strong military force kept at bay the countless marauders who had laid Bengal to waste in the first half of the 18th century. Don't get me wrong, the East India Company was tyrannical in the 18th century (although it mellowed in the 19th). They did Bengal few favours, and certainly exploited the country for the benefit of Company coffers, but it's not correct to state that every Sicca Rupee and Gold Mohur left the country.
General notes:
..."more balanced and neutral then present"
My dictionary defines neutral as: "not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy": Therefore a truly "neutral" article, would present both points of view without prejudice. Am I to understand, then, that in your stated desire to have a "neutral" article that both points of view will be put forward?
Balanced: dictionary: "equality between the totals of the two sides of an account. a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight"
Will this new "balanced" article give "equality between the totals of the two sides of an account" - will it give the British point of view at all?
Also - I seem to have fallen foul of your colleague Desione who seems to want to delete what I write. I am in the ironic position of actually being attacked by Wikipedia associates because I am positively supporting a Wikipedia article. Our friend Desione is deeply hostile to the article, and as such, I think he is not best suited as a neutral editor for this open discussion page. I humbly ask that I may be forgiven for any past indiscretions, that I may have been deemed to have made, but nevertheless wish to point out that I am a published author on this subject, my book - http://worldcat.org/oclc/76787853&referer=brief_results , published by a respectable Indian publisher of educational materials, is held at many university libraries throughout the world. I do not pretend to pull rank in this discussion, nor insist that my view should prevail, but I humbly request that at least I should be granted the courtesy of having my answers and questions remain on this page, or that I should at least be edited or deleted by an impartial hand. Also, as I seem to be one of the only people taking an interest in the debate (at present), who is actually defending the article, I can't understand how the discussion is to be enriched with my total censure. Unfortunately, so far, many of the article's critics have contributed in the form of heroic patriotic generalizations - marked by rhetoric and overstatement rather than responsible scholarship. As such, I welcome a discussion on the actual article (point by point) and will be delighted to offer my sources whenever requested to do so.
TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.178.168 (talk) 23:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I am amazed that someone is finding fault with Siraj's attack on Calcutta to rid of Europeans. What right did British have to construct and strengthen forts in India? What did India and Indians have to do with Anglo-French wars? Siraj was a patriot and was one of the first rulers who understood that building forts by foreigners - what ever may be the pre-text - is just pre-cursor for coming slavery. If warring Mughals and Marathas wanted to build forts outside London would English have allowed it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.221.120.65 (talk) 22:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The British were about to be attacked by the French - In the 17th century they had actually been invited to build a settlement, including fort, in Bengal. --Blenheim Shots (talk) 01:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
This article entirely ignores the many negative impacts during the Raj, such as the economy, many incidents of persecution and divisive effects on society and religion. How can this even be remotely encyclopedic especially concerning the issue of colonialism if it does not present negative as well as positive impacts of the Raj. KBN (talk) 04:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
What "divisive effects on religion"? - There was complete freedom of religion in British India -please explain. The British were actually scared of tampering too much with religion, lest it should spark a general revolt.
"How can this even be remotely encyclopedic especially concerning the issue of colonialism if it does not present negative as well as positive impacts of the Raj." - OK, so I take from this that you think an article should list the "positive impacts of the Raj" as well. So, fine, include a few extra paragraphs on the Amritsar massacre (or whatever) then the article can be seen as "balanced" (from your point of view) - and the job's done.
I think the article is "encyclopedic" by the way.
TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.177.106 (talk) 09:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
There was some negative impact, not just religious. Although, to be fair, they were free to pursue their religious practices. In all honesty, the only negative impact the Brits had was to pit Jinnah against Gandhi, leading to the Partition of India, with millions lives lost in the process. If you want to say that this has had a negative impact on religious freedom, then I would have to agree (to a certain extent). It caused the Hindu and Muslim populations to turn against each other, an issue still very much active in Pakistan. While the situation has calmed in India, there are still a number of religious issues popping up here and there --Maurice45 (talk) 17:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, fair point Maurice, BUT you talk about the ML almost as if it were a British invention and tool, which I think is going a tad too far. Even if the British had not played off Congress against the ML, I think one way or another, the ML would have certainly existed as a powerful grass-roots Muslim force and it would have probably got what it wanted - perhaps with even more bloodshed in the long run. Don't forget that British India was about 45% Muslim - even The Republic of India is about 25% Muslim today, without Bangladesh & Pakistan - also, don't forget that large scale conflict between Hindus and Muslims had been going on for hundreds of years prior to British rule, and indeed after British rule as well, right into our century. If anything, British rule put the brakes on this traditional conflict for a good 150 years, before it all fell apart after WWII. So, Maurice, do you believe that there would have been no serious trouble between Muslims and Hindus, between roughly 1750-1950, had the East India Company not planted the Union Jack on Indian soil? Really????? The Hindus (or should I say Congress) and the Muslims (ML) accepted British mediation on the Pakistan issue, because they distrusted each other too much for any direct and productive negotiation between themselves. Proof: the East/West Pakistan border was entirely drawn by the British. Anyway, this is all entering into the murky never-never land of hypotheticals and conjecture.
TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.133.235 (talk) 22:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
In reference to the above, it's not very "encyclopedic" - it should be more list-like, naming battles, governers, company settlements, presidencies etc. I admit that this isn't thrilling reading - but it's supposed to be an encyclopedia. What you have here tends to wander off on tangents, to try and emphasise how cruel the Brits were - talking about how much money Clive took home etc. and sacrificing really basic information about 18th century British India in order to do this. You can just say something like: "The British heavily taxed the peasantry, and Company officials returned to England with vast fortunes" - that's it, it's done! Space is at a premium here. How is information about how much an English nobleman needed to live a comfortable life in England, more important than mentioning Madras - for example?
"£234,000 for himself.[2] At the time, an average British nobleman could live a life of luxury on an annual income of £800." So, if that's the case, £800 was probably worth about £250,000 in today's money, which means that Clive was rewarded about 50 odd million in today's money - about the size of Heather McCartney's divorce settlement. And this obscure and pointless information replaces what? A few famous battles? information on Cochin, Jaipur, Travancore, Hyderabad, Mysore, Cis-Sutlej Hill States, Central India Agency, Kutch and Gujarat Gaikwad territories?
"what was expected to be a drought turned into a severe famine" - in 1770 what was expected to be a drought was expected to be a famine. I don't get your point. Preventing the hoarding of grain by traders was in fact a good thing, although you are right, the EIC should have given tax relief. Where did the 10 million figure come from? Bengal's economy would have completely collapsed, along with the Company's revenues - I can't see the 10 million figure being right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.177.106 (talk) 21:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Clive in fact, proved himself very brave in battle and pulled off one of the most stunning feats in military history - conquering half of India with less than 2000 men. Also, it's a fact that internal order was far better maintained under Company rule. Hindu writers of the period actually praise the Company's government for "protecting" their "lives and property". These are all solid historical facts by the way. This is very much from the British point of view, I admit, but.... so what? If the article is to be "balanced" and "nuetral" (as you state) the British point of view has to be represented. If this is not done, then all this talk of "nuetrality" and "balance" is, at best, mistaken.
These comments are not general observations about the Raj, by the way, but directly relate to the above suggested article.
May I also point out that the original artcle, before Fowler & Fowler's article, was embarrassing, it wasn't even written in correct English, it contained gross errors, repetion, it was excessively biased beyond anything I have ever read before, and went seriously off-topic. I think Fowler & Fowler's article is nuetral, but even if you disagree with this, it is both eloquently written and professionally laid out - in stark contrast to what was there before. He obviously went to a lot of work on Wikipedia's behalf. Rather than unsportingly errase your esteemed colleague's laudable efforts, could they not simply be edited?
Look at what he's done here, in his PRELUDE:
"At the turn of the 19th century, Governor-General Wellesley began what became two decades of accelerated expansion of Company territories.[8] This was achieved either by subsidiary alliances between the Company and local rulers or by direct military annexation. The subsidiary alliances created the Princely States (or Native States) of the Hindu Maharajas and the Muslim Nawabs, prominent among which were: Cochin (1791), Jaipur (1794), Travancore (1795), Hyderabad (1798), Mysore (1799), Cis-Sutlej Hill States (1815), Central India Agency (1819), Kutch and Gujarat Gaikwad territories (1819), Rajputana (1818), and Bahawalpur (1833).[8] The annexed regions included the Northwest Provinces (comprising Rohilkhand, Gorakhpur, and the Doab) (1801), Delhi (1803), and Sindh (1843). Punjab, Northwest Frontier Province, and Kashmir, were annexed after the Anglo-Sikh Wars in 1849; however, Kashmir was immediately sold under the Treaty of Amritsar (1850) to the Dogra Dynasty of Jammu, and thereby became a princely state. In 1854 Berar was annexed, and the state of Oudh two years later.[8]
The East India Company also signed treaties with both Afghan rulers and Ranjit Singh of Lahore to counterbalance Russian support of Persian plans in western Afghanistan. In 1839 the Company's effort to more actively support Shah Shuja as Amir in Afghanistan, brought about the First Afghan War (1839-42) and resulted in a military disaster for the East India Company. In addition, as the British expanded their territory in India, so did Russia in Central Asia, with the taking of Bukhara and Samarkand in 1863 and 1868 respectively, thereby setting the stage for the Great Game of Central Asia.[9]"
'
There is NO PRO-BRITISH bias here at all. Tell me, please, WHERE is the pro-British bias in this? He is merely giving as much information as possible in the space provided, with links to other parts of Wikipedia. No POV is given, at all, either way, indeed 99% of what they have written is like this. If you think they have missed out important bits - add them! Does it matter if the article becomes 10 or 20 percent bigger? The Raj is a big subject after all.
The article is truly "encyclopedic". Please don't scrub this, in favour of some anti-British essay which sets out a POV and tells us much less. That is wrong, in my humble opinion.
If you think Fowler & Fowler (and anybody else involved) have made mistakes or have shown a bias, you should say exactly where this has happened, and changes should be made to the offending sections, or extra lines should be inserted to give an extra (anti-British) POV, to give it the "balance" and "neutrality" you seem to think is missing. Or is it just an excuse to hijack the page?
Fowler & Fowler (and all else involved)have done an excellent job here, Wikipedia should be grateful to them, because it replaced total rubbish and I think the neutrality of their article is clear. If you are going to rub out the article for an entirely new one, then you have in effect decided, without debate, that they were guilty and it was a bad article. Says who? And moreover, you want to call a brand new anti-British article "neutral". Do the writers of the new article even have a neutral attitude towards the British Raj? I doubt it. If they don't, then they should not do the project.
"...almost 250 year long British rule in India" - I beg your pardon? Aurangzeb didn't even die until 1707.
You don't even know how long the British ruled India for! And you want to write an article? Before the 1750's, the Company ruled a few square miles of India: the settlements of Madras, Bombay, Calcutta, Surrat. Up to then, the Portuguese had more land in India! The British started to rule less than half of India from about 1757 (it started quite quickly) and they left in 1947 - that's 190 years. So where did you get the extra 60 years from? If you mean, from the time that the British started to control the day to day affairs of their "factories" and modest settlements (hardly "British rule in India" less than 1 in two thousand Indians lived in such places, and even then they were still considered subjects of the Mogul) - well, we would have to date that from around 1630, not 1700.
What was so wrong with showing portraits and views? What was "biased" about that? This seems to be a slightly re-worked version of the very first article - which was complete rubbish by the way. I'm sure that's where the "250 year" thing came from - so I rest my case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.177.106 (talk) 09:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
TB
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.130.223 (talk) 22:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
The article introduction says:
"...and lasted until 1947, when the British Indian Empire was partitioned into two sovereign dominion states, the Union of India (later the Republic of India) and the Dominion of Pakistan".
And this certainly is the universal notion -- India partitioned into 2 states.
But Burma was "partitioned" from India as well in 1937, and Sikkim was recognized as an independent state (albeit protectorate of India) from 1947-1975.
So should not the story read, "Between 1937 and 1947 the Indian Empire was partitioned into four states: India, Pakistan, Burma, and Sikkim"?
Yes, I think Bhutan split off in 1950 didn't it? What you say above actually sounds correct, although I had never actually thought of it that way. Maybe Sikkim's position wasn't completely clarified in 1947 - like Bhutan's, so it loosely came under India. It's a crying shame what happened in Sikkim, swamped by Nepalis, who rioted because they were not given the same rights as the Sikkimese. India invaded to "restore order" - and gave the vote to the aforementioned Nepalis, who of course voted against the old independent order. The nation's future was decided by disgruntled immigrants and The Republic of India - at gunpoint! The Sikkimese (Lepchas - Bhutias) hardly got a word in. What happened in Sikkim casts a light on Bhutan's paranoid attitude to visitors and immigrants.
Continued.......
According to the 1950 partition map in this artcle http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/India_Pakistan1947a.jpg - Sikkim was considered a princely state, so it was under Indian patronage at that point - I guess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.176.150 (talk) 08:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Continued.......
The answer is actually written in the extreme bottom left-hand corner of the map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/India_Pakistan1947a.jpg - Sikkim's position was not clarified until 1950. As for Burma, in a sense it was part of the partition of India in the last years of British rule, but the term "partition" is always used for the Pakistan/India division, and I think to lump Burma into this, would be too unorthodox. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.133.235 (talk) 21:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.176.150 (talk) 08:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
As the "British Raj" is a colloquialism, and the "Indian Empire" was the official, legal, passport-issuing name of the political entity... why in the world is "Indian Empire" forwarding to "British Raj" rather than vice versa? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.154.104 (talk) 07:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
You're absolutely right - "Indian Empire" or even "British India" would be the correct titles - "British Raj" is a colloquialism - correct! I think (my guess is) some Indian nationalists and politically correct types didn't like the sound of "Indian Empire" or "British India" - because it sounded too much like triumphalism, maybe, so it was changed to British Raj because that sounds less legitimate - and to hell with history. Although the article now looks more like a professional and neutral piece on the Indian Empire, the RAJ title, I think, is a hangover from the time when the article was a badly written extremist piece of web garbage. So if think the original title is a bit twisted, thank your lucky stars you never saw the original article.
TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.176.150 (talk) 08:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
You are right of course, I did not realize the information was at hand, nevertheless, having read the above, I think I was barking up the right tree. - TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.2.233 (talk) 14:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, point taken, but I still think the original point raised was a good one, it was (is) a popular colloquialism, but nevertheless, it's still a colloquialism. Just because it was used in a book title (etc.) doesn't stop it from being one. Rgds: TB. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.237.131 (talk) 00:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I am removing the NPOV tag. It had been slapped on the article by user:Desion in February 2008 after making this post just before he was blocked for 31 hours for edit warring. Although there had been some discussion, there had never been any consensus on this. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree, any article of this nature mst by it's very nature be open to an accusation of POV. The TAg should not only stay, I question if it could ever be removed [[Slatersteven (talk) 18:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)]]
"Occupation" (recently added to the lead) has a very clear meaning in law, political science and history. It is the military rule of a country over which sovereignty is not claimed. Here is user John Kenney from an earlier post:
"An occupation is a military administration by a power that is not considered to be the legitimate authority in a country. This was not the situation of India under the Raj. India was colonized, and was perhaps a victim of imperialism, and whatever other such words you want to employ. But to describe it as an occupation is to twist the meaning of that word out of all recognizable shape. Britain's position in India was not the result of military conquest alone, but of treaties signed with the native rulers. I believe this is more or less true in nearly all cases. Certainly the British relationship with the various princely states, who together made up maybe a third of India, cannot be reasonably described as an occupation. That the Indian people did not like British rule has nothing to do with whether or not it was an occupation. "Occupation" is a clear term with a clear meaning in international law, and that meaning has to do with control and administration by the military. This was not how India was governed under the Raj, and the term is completely inappropriate. john k 07:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)"
Of the more than three dozen references at the end of the article, not a single one uses "occupation" to describe the British rule of India. Sure, some Indian nationalists used "occupation" in their writings, but no academic historian, Indian or British, does that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
This is actually on old edit. It has stood unchanged for about 2 weeks. I just checked yesterday and today and someone re-edited it & I reverted it back. I put an explanation onto this page at the time, and it has not so far attracted adverse comment.
"The term 'the Raj' is a propaganda term and should be avoided as it is not neutral" - The drive by the British elite to rewrite and deny history by euphemistically referring to the occupation of India as 'the Raj' should be resisted. The term 'the Raj' is essentially a propaganda term and hence not neutral. Ideally the article itself should not be called 'the Raj' but unfortunately it has, particularly in Britain, become common usage. It is important therefore that a POV is maintained which represents the view taken by most of the world, which presents the British occupation of India as essentially a criminal activity. Similar to the POV taken when describing the Italian Mafia or the Chicago Mob. They did do a few good things but mostly it was murder and mayhem.
The German wikipedia entry does not have an entry for 'Raj', simply an entry for British India. Its POV is consistent with my changes. Please read that entry (use google translation if you do not understand German). The British occupation of India was a colonial enterprise, you can't simply airbrush this out. I would be happy if the article were changed to the more neutral term 'British India' as it is on the German wikipedia entry (with a redirect from Raj), but you cannot escape the fact that 'the Raj' is a euphemism used in Britain to cover its colonial occupation of India, a term many Indians would find very offensive as it is used to make brutal colonial rule appear inoffensive. If 'Raj' is the title of the article then it needs to be explained that it is in fact a British euphemism. txbangert, 2 May 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Txbangert (talk • contribs) 08 15:38, 2 May 2008
Txbangert (talk · contribs), who is a new user, has made more than three reverts in less than 24 hours. Although, he has been informed of the Wikipedia policy on his talk page, I am posting here as well so that he is fully aware. The 3 revert rule (which allows a maximum of three reverts by one user in an article in less than 24 hours) is non-negotiable and a violation of it can lead to blocks. This is also an entreaty to Txbangert (talk · contribs) to reply to the talk page discussion.
note This section was created to address edits I had introduced and which stood unchanged for some time, and which had been repeated on a number of web sites. Since it appears now that certain dedicated wikipedians are willing to engage in an edit war to try to revert back to (presumably their) wording we (in effect) agreed to hash through the issues here. It should be noted that the edits were relatively minor, but sought to introduce more balance as I felt the article as it stood in effect apologizes for or seeks to cover up what most people see as the brutal and criminal activities of British colonialism and imperialism (which is not my own personal 'feeling' but well established well sourced historical strand of thought, albeit one which not everyone agrees). There are 3 central issues, as rightly set out by the header. (1) Is the 'British Raj' the legitimate or 'official' term for the British activities in India. The use of the term needs to be balanced by how the term was used by the British at the time, is used by the British today (historically), was used by the (at the time) competing colonial powers, is and was used by the anti-colonial powers (soviet union & america). It also needs to reflect how it was used by Indians at the time and how it is used in India today. Hopefully we can all agree that if the term 'British Raj' is only used by a small clique and not used or used quite differently then it is important that this is put in the lead. Particularly if it is used as a euphemism to cover up or gloss over crimes against humanity. If not, the debate here needs to determine how the use of the term itself should be described and whether that description belongs at least in part in the lead. (2) Were British activities in the territories of the 'Raj' colonial in nature. (3) Is it right to describe the territories of the 'Raj' either as a whole or in part as 'occupied', in the sense of military occupation.
What I intend to do is address in detail each of these issues in the hope that some consensus can be reached. [note: please feel free to modify these terms of reference if you feel you can set it out better] TxB (talk) 09:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Euphemism and use of the term 'Raj': Actually none of the online dictionaries have an entry for 'British Raj'. The Merriam-Webster dictionary has an entry for 'Raj', but the Wikipedia dictionary does not. Dictionary.com says only that it is an Hindi word meaning 'rule' and only gives as an example of its use that it can (but not necessarily) refer to the period of British rule. Entries, where they exist, are very minimal. This indicates that the term may well be obscure and not as well understood as claimed.
A google search on the term comes back with 444,000 hits, which does indeed show that the term is in active use. However, "British India" produces 849,000 hits. And just for comparison "vietnam america war" produces over 8 million hits. This indicates that the matter can be summarily dismissed as some have suggested. I agree the term is in active use, but the issue is whether it is used only (or overwhelmingly) in Britain. In respect of Britain, it must be understood that in Britain there is a 'Raj' industry. The BBC for example, particularly with its publishing arm via periodicals such as BBC History churns out vast quantities of 'Raj' material. Then it is taught in schools (mostly from a British POV of course), there are popular books continuously on sale on the subject and so forth. Which is understandable as India was the 'jewel in the crown' of British empire and people in Britain are descendants of people who had positions in British India. There is therefore genuine interest in Britain in the subject, and also a considerable motive to whitewash this part of British history. This effort is dealt with by an Indian academic in Cambridge.[1]
What we need is the etymology of the term. Remarkably this seems to be hard to come by, at least via a simple naive search. This is indicative of its use as a propaganda term, but of course we should have academic sources on the etymology. It seems to me that those proponents of 'British Raj' should do this work to justify their use of the term. No doubt they will turn to the output of the British Raj industry, but this does not resolve the issue one way or the other. There are sources that speak out against the efforts to rehabilitate 'empire' [2] but I have not found anything that deals with the etymology itself, which would resolve the matter one way or the other.
As to the name itself one does not have to look far. The German wikipedia does not have an entry for 'British Raj' or even a redirect for it. The entry is called 'British-India'[3] and it gives 'British Raj' and 'Indian Empire' as alternative terms. French wikipedia has an entry for 'Raj Britannique'[4], and this gives the etymology: 'British Raj is the unofficial term for the period of British domination(arguably translated as occupation) of the Indian sub-continent, that is to say the geographic zone including India, Pakistan, Sri Lank, Bangladesh and Burma ( Le Raj britannique est la dénomination non officielle de la période de domination britannique du sous-continent indien, c'est-à-dire la zone géographique s'étendant sur les pays suivants : l'Inde, le Pakistan, le Sri Lanka, le Bangladesh et la Birmanie.) This was almost exactly my wording, with the word 'euphemism' in place of 'unofficial term'.
If 'British Raj' is the unofficial term (or colloquialism) then it seems to me it needs to be explained in the lead why an unofficial term is used rather than the official term. Moreover, if the British use of the term implies a positive gloss on British India whereas the use of the term in India implies the crimes of the British in India then that needs to be made clear in the lead. To say Angrezi Raj (literally "British Rule" in Hindii) misleads.
The template for this issue should I think be the article Korea under Japanese rule. This is precisely the same subject, but dealing with Japanese colonial rule of Korea in place of British colonial rule in India. While the article in my view needs a lot of work, it does use the correct term and it accurately describes the use of the term in the lead. TxB (talk) 11:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Colonialism: I do not believe that there can be any dispute that the 'British Raj' was a colonial enterprise. Therefore the correct way to describe it is as 'British colonial rule', which is how it is described on the German wikipedia entry. The English article should be brought in line with this. Colonialism and Imperialism seem to be almost entirely missing from the British article, despite the whole edifice of British rule in India was colonial and imperial. This can only be described as historical revisionism and needs to be rectified.
As to the POV I think it is common ground that Wikipedia articles should be written on a neutral and consistent POV. An article should therefore not seek to for example glorify British colonial rule while at the same time denigrating Belgian colonial rule. The english article on the 'British Raj' should therefore be consistent with the french[5], dutch[6] and german[7] articles. TxB (talk) 11:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Occupation: Previous proponents of 'occupation' have rather made a hash of it, but for the reasons I gave above (so far uncontested) it is right and appropriate that the lead says "occupation and rule". Not all of the 'Raj' territories were occupied continuously from beginning to end just as not all of the territories were ruled by Britain (there were exceptions). But most of it was, and Britain had an active policy to occupy and 'pacify' those territories not under their control or which refused British control. A good example of this is Burma, which is not India but is considered by the British to be part of the 'Raj'. The Third Anglo-Burmese War makes it absolutely clear that Burma was conquered militarily, was under military rule for a decade and that military occupation was opposed by a determined insurgency. The insurgency was only defeated when the British employed a system of reprisals (where entire villages would be burned and looted if any villager took part in the resistance) -- referred to by the British under with euphemism of 'pacification'. TxB (talk) 09:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Misc Euphemism makes no sense as a descriptor for the term 'British Raj'. The term is well understood and by Naming conventions followed here, the term is absolutely acceptable everywhere in the world. Occupation is not correct either because it would imply the existence of an occupying army that was administering India. That was patently not the case during the British Raj because the army was largely drawn from Indians. The Raj was a colonial enterprise, not an occupation. It does make sense to include the colonial aspect of the Raj in the lede, it is missing (asaik). But it is the Raj and it was not an occupation.--RegentsPark (talk) 16:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
See:
http://books.google.com/books?id=f7EPoTyUvfkC&pg=PA11&dq=%2BBritish+%2Bindia+%2Bracism&sig=GsorXl_gExtXgTM5YcadTJkFj08 Then in 1857, with the Indian Mutiny while various Benthamite type legal codes were introduced in a renewed paternalism, a new racist spirit entered the British Raj...
http://books.google.com/books?id=5DLrgG_MflgC&pg=PA50&dq=%2BBritish+%2Bindia+%2Bracism&sig=_Rph-F2NnwiPmvc_qsYSZC0HpcE According to Curtin "the golden age of racism was the golden age of imperial idea." and the development of racism and the development of empire ran side by side. From Ireland to India, the British empire was built on an ideology of racism...
http://books.google.com/books?id=lzpSpi1t07wC&pg=PA501&dq=%2B%22British+Raj%22+%2B%22racist%22&sig=FsINzwv4J6hdnJoTuxV72cFfY-s Once Indian nationalism became even half-serious proposition, the raj could not long endure. Racist by any standard it undoubtedly was; economically exploitive too, as nearly all modern historians wish to point out...
The last reference event points to a consensus among historians. I have modified lead to indicate that British raj was racist based on these reliable references. Thanks. Desione (talk) 03:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
PS: Reading your comments (I assume) you feel the 'critcism' of the rule is not highlighted. If you want to do so why not create a new article: Criticism of British Raj? Then you can include a WP:Summary style section of it in this article.KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 (talk) 07:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Desione, I reiterate my suggestion that the article is best confined to historical events without attaching value judgments. It is undeniable that there were aspects of the Raj that were racist, especially in the 19th and early 20th centuries, but these are best discussed elsewhere. If we get into those sorts of issues, the article will be of book length! You will find it impossible to insert your comments on racism in the article (and the reliability of your source is questionable). If your intent is to inform the reader of the colonial enterprise nature of the Raj, you will be much better served if you 'speak softly' (especially when you don't carry a large stick!).--RegentsPark (talk) 23:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Can a section on the positive aspects of the Raj be added too then? Despite what some say, the article is at present completely neutral. Can't both sides of the story be told if this present neutrality is to be thus compromised? TXB: "I'm just chipping in as someone who is essentially neutral on the whole issue" Oh please! How can you possibly say you are neutral after all you've said? Unfortunately we have had a lot of this: people who are hostile to the article, who wish to turn the article into a hatchet job on the Raj, and try to do this in the name of "neutrality" - which is quite ridiculous. Personally, I don't object to a historically factual critique of the Raj, unfortunately, in the past, some massive and totally unforgivable errors creeped in to the text. I think to avoid an "edit war" TWO new paragraphs should be included "Positive effects of the Raj" and "Negative effects of the Raj"., so both parties can voice their opinions. It's messy but at least we'll have done with all this. As long as fantasy does not creep into it, such as stating that the British wrecked a successful Indian economy, when it had already been wrecked for 50 years before they took power OR claiming that "thousands" died at Amritsar, OR claiming that the Bengal famine was a deliberate "genocide", or claiming such rubbish as the British ruled for 250 years and controlled "vast territories" before 1750 (all of which has been done in the past here)- as long as they can stick to widely accepted historical data, maybe they can do this.--Blenheim Shots (talk) 04:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
In the coming week, as I add, subtract, or move material (to other daughter articles), the article will have an unsettled appearance. Please bear with me. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:26, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
For the people who want to change the name of the page, here is a dab page that I forgot I had created: British rule in India. It explains why the British Raj (or Crown Rule in India) is still the best name for what this page is about. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
1/ "Occupation" If we are to talk about India being under "occupation", then in order to keep Wikipedia standardized, we must change all references to British colonialism as "occupation" - so we must have the "occupation of Barbados", the "occupation of Canada", the "occupation of The British Antarctic Territory", The "occupation of Fiji" - etc. etc. - surely this is too unorthodox?
Yes, "initial periods of occupation" - after which, they were no longer occupied, so it was no longer an "occupation" was it? --Blenheim Shots (talk) 21:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
2/ Descriptive classification of British rule. By the standards of the 18th & 19th century, how was British rule in India not legitimate? In centuries past, rule was decided by "right of conquest". Was British rule illegitimate because the British were foreigners? - Well, so were the Moguls. Was British rule illegitimate because of bad governance? Well, the British managed to maintain internal order significantly better than their predecessors. Was British rule illegitimate because order was maintained by foreign troops? Well, 80% of the military and police personnel in India were native Indians. Was British rule illegitimate because it was undemocratic? Well, British rule never replaced democratic regimes in South Asia, and in the 18th and 19th centuries, democracy was not the criteria of legitimate government (alas, this is not even the case in the 21st century). So, by the lax standards of the period, British rule was legitimate and not military occupation. Unfortunately, we seem to be imposing our modern value systems on past centuries. Anything like East India Company rule in today's world would be rightly considered criminal, racist etc., but 200 years ago it was considered perfectly legitimate.
Firstly, the Indians you refer to talk a load of nonsense - I'm sorry to be so blunt, but your compatriots have written, on this page and in the previous article, that the EIC ruled vast territories in India before 1750 (false), that the EIC established themselves initially in large Indian cities (false), that the British ruled in India for 250 years (false) that there was no slavery in Mogul India (false) etc. etc., your compatriots here have also made some very suspicious comments about the creation of Pakistan, that mark them out as nationalistically chauvinistic, and best not suited to write anything about India, past or present. So, I think to say your argument is right, simply because Indians here say it is, is, at best, highly questionable. Also, you have to prove a case based on legitimacy of 18th and 19th century government, not the legitimacy of 21st century populist Indian imagination. "When the British military could no longer support British rule the British were forced to leave." - the British withdrawal from India was due to many things, but never military pressure. If they kept India British during two World Wars, with only a fraction of their army, they could have easily dragged the Raj on for a few more decades, the uprisings of 1946 were puny affairs, the British had faced 100 times worse in the past. The truth is - the world had changed, Britain had an anti-imperialist Socialist government for the first time and due to the efforts of Congress and Gandhi, the international image of British rule in India had been tarnished, and their position there was no longer morally justifiable. The world had changed. The view that in 1947 the British were pushed out militarily is just an Indian patriot's daydream. Nehru and Jinnah had already brokered an independence deal before the uprisings, and both supported the suppression of these rebellions - which was done with ease. The fact that you subscribe to the populist Indian view that the British left India simply because it was militarily untenable, is a sure sign that you have a simplistic and populist view of this period. "There was also an alternative government (or government in hiding or exile)" - the INA? Well if Bose was so "legitimate" why did he get kicked out of the Congress party? Why did he never attaract any real support in the Indian Army? What "alternative government" - a few thousand rag-tag deserters, who the Japanese treated as coolies, and who Congress disowned?? - "alternative government", please! If there was an "alternative government" so-to-speak, it was the Congress Party, who had infinately more sense than to involve themselves with the Axis powers. Before WWII There was not a general consensus in Great Britain that Britain's rule was illegitimate, some individuals may have called it so, but theirs was neither the official nor the popular view. As for uprisings.... if this is the criteria for illegitimate government, then today there are about 30 armed groups in India, Communists, Separatists & Islamists, fighting to overthrow the Indian government in their areas, so is the Republic of India also illegitimate due to these uprisings? Tens of thousands of people have been killed in Kashmir, the Naxilites have killed thousands, and Nagaland is the world's longest running conflict. . --Blenheim Shots (talk) 21:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, ignore my past message, I have just realised most of what you have written is utter rubbish which makes your point of view and more importantly your knowledge bank pretty clear. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 15:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
3/ Linear editorial consistency of Indian history articles within Wikipedia The Raj is sandwiched between the Mogul period and The Republic of India period. To ensure editorial consistency and fairness, the three articles must have similar criteria and standards. I note that The Republic of India articles and the Mogul articles, are not critical, but simply offer a general overview of events and data, as does this Raj article. The British Raj is not apart from these two articles, but part of them in the context of Wikipedia's overview of Indian history. If overt critiques of the Raj are to be inserted into this, this is fine, because British India was not above criticism by any means; however, in the interests of editorial continuity and balance, similar POV critiques have to be added to the Mogul and Republic of India articles. The Mogul empire, with its gross inability to maintain internal order, its innumerable civil wars and atrocities, and its strict adherence to foreign (light skinned) bloodlines and Islamic domination, could also fall prey to similar, identical and perhaps worse criticism than the British Raj. And the Republic of India..... well, let's not talk about that. So if it's "game on" for negative opinions in this article, then it has to be "game on" for the Republic of India and Mogul Empire articles too? In my humble opinion, this current article is strictly neutral, and should be left alone.
"Criticizing other empires and rulers does not justify British rule." - I never said it did. I never even said that British rule was "justifiable", by today's standards it probably wasn't justifiable, but neither was it (in general terms) "criminal" or "evil". "British rule in India must be examined independently." - no! no! and again no! This is Wikipedia Indian history, it's all completely linked and forms a linear story. The Mogul page and the British page chronologically go side by side, within the same site. It is both fair and logical that they both be written with the same set of standards to form a flowing narrative of Indian history within Wikipedia. Below you are saying that this page should be altered to fit the critical style of other European Empires' pages, but when it comes to the Mogul Empire & The Republic of India, all of a sudden "British rule in India must be examined independently". Where I come from this is called "moving the goal posts".--Blenheim Shots (talk) 21:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
4/ Neutrality of Would-be Editors: I do feel that The British Raj article is being singled out by individuals with a desperate axe to grind - many emotionally charged comments they have written above speak for themselves. Are these the people who are going to deliver us a neutral article? I think not.
"the article has been written from a British apologist for empire POV" - I never wrote a single line of the article, but I want to know what you are talking about. Be constructive and quote the lines that you don't like! From what I see, the article is completely neutral. Unfortunately your idea of "neutrality" is an anti-British rant, by the look of things. --Blenheim Shots (talk) 21:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
TB has finally made an account, new name: BLENHEIM SHOTS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blenheim Shots (talk • contribs) 23:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Would-be editors to this article usually give away their nationalist “jai-Hind” anti-British sentiments very quickly, with emotive phrases and statements. Tx, calls the erstwhile Indian army “mercenaries”, a mercenary is a hired soldier, usually of a temporary nature, who fights without any ideological motivation. Sepoys were career soldiers, volunteers, who served in India’s only national army and this Indian Army proved its effectiveness and loyalty on many occasions, not least in two world wars wherein they fought magnificently. In WWII, many Indian soldiers saw the logic of defending India’s borders from the Fascist and brutal Japanese. This was proven by a magnificent response (the best in history) to a call for army volunteers and the stunning military achievements of the likes of the 4th Indian Division and The Assam Rifles, so the term “mercenary” is quite ridiculous. Also he compares the Raj to the Mafia, suggesting that the Mafia did good things too. So, I take it that the Mafia’s “good deeds” included the unification of Italy under a strong government, the introduction Italy’s first modern police force and its first newspaper, the territorial expansion of Italy into new areas, building the nation’s railways, the founding of many of its major cities including that nation’s capital, the introduction of progressive laws to ban slavery and ritualistic human sacrifice, the encouragement of female education, the building of huge dams and bridges, etcetera, etcetera, and so-forth. But of course, the Mafia are just a bunch of thugs that never did anything for anybody – so why even mention them?
Tx states that: the view of the world is that "the British occupation of India was essentially a criminal activity" - is it? Really? I don't think that is the general view. If it is, then, every 19th century European Empire we must say, was a "criminal activity" (probably true for Belgium), but why stop there? Surely if that's the case, the Roman and Greek empires were "criminal activities" as well. This may sound rather frivolous of me, but can somebody explain when an Empire (which by definition is always based on some form of economic and cultural domination) is not a criminal activity then? If the British Empire is to be spoken of in such terms, then in the interests of fairness and consistency, all the World's former empires must get similar treatment in Wikipedia. Does anybody fancy altering a thousand Wikipedia pages?
Unfortunately those that wish to edit this article in an unfavourable way, are always extremely light on scholastic historical argument, and very heavy on emotional outbursts largely based on rumour, prejudice and populist propaganda, replete with words such as “mafia”, “criminal”, “evil”, “mercenaries”, “occupation” etc., - if they want a bitter and twisted rant on how “evil” the Brits are/were, then they have a million extremist websites to chose from, and I would hope that Wikipedia doesn’t become one of them.--Blenheim Shots (talk) 03:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
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: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link).You can say what you want about me TXB, but at least I am honest. You have a malignantly hostile attitude to British influence in India, yet you call yourself "neutral" so you can attempt to qualify yourself to edit this page - which is obviously just a clumsy ruse. "....a particularly dark chapter of British history" doesn't sound too "neutral" does it???
With your eloquent diatribe, you skip most of my points. Some mistaken individuals may have admired Mafia machismo in Italy - but the Mafia still didn't build anything or leave behind progressive laws, did they?
"clearly seeks to glorify British rule in India, while at the same time seeking to exclude any other point of view" ... well, if you bothered to read what I had written, you would see that I am actually in favour of a paragraph entitled "negative effects of British Rule" written by non-neutral parties such as yourself – so, sir, before you attack me, would you please have the courtesy to at least READ what I write. Yes, the Gurkhas were mercenaries - the Gurkhas however were not Indian troops / sepoys, and I never talked about them, so I can't follow your logic on that one. So, Japan’s occupation of Korea was essentially the same as Britain’s “occupation” of India was it?? 1. Did Japan reunify Korea under one central authority after it had split up into a number of independent warring states? 2. Did Japan Suppress human sacrifice, female infanticide, and the likes of Sati and Thugies in Korea? 3. Did the Japanese create that nation’s first newspaper? 4. Did the Japanese found or develop (from virtually nothing) most of the top 5 Korean cities? 5. Did the Japanese create greater internal security by preventing civil war and destructive incursions by marauders? 6. Did the Japanese remove the political domination of one religious minority? 7. Did the Japanese build an extensive first class network of railways in Korea? 8. Did the Japanese create Korea’s first modern police force? 9. Did the Japanese create Asia's first electric telegraph, in Korea? 10. Did the Japanese create a neutral and scientifically reputable cultural body to examine Korea’s history, such as The Archeological Survey of India? 11. Did the Japanese create the first comprehensive maps of Korea? 12. Did the Japanese promote female education in Korea? 13. Did the Japanese create Asia's first museum, in Korea? 14. Did the Japanese expand the geographical scope of the Korean nation into previously unclaimed areas? 15. Did the Japanese create Korea’s first census? 16. Did the Japanese abolish slavery in Korea? 17. Did the Japanese construct Korea’s national capital? 18. Did the Japanese introduce a quota system, to encourage lower castes (or the Korean equivalent) into the civil service? 19. Did the Japanese Introduce superior medical techniques into Korea, and make medical discoveries there? Such as the discovery of the causes of bubonic plague and malaria (discoveries of British India). 20. In WWII, did the Japanese get a massive and enthusiastic response to a call for army volunteers in Korea? 21. Are the Japanese language, legal codes and governmental organization, still widely used in post-colonial Korea? No – come to think of it, the British Raj was NOTHING like the Japanese occupation of Korea. They were completely different, with few points of comparison.
You quote me: “Mercenaries who "fought magnificently", the "fascist and brutal Japanese" and "stunning military achievements"" - well, the Assam Rifles did mount an incredible defense at Imphal and Kohima, when they stood their ground, heavily outnumbered, against crack Japanese troops and their INA cohorts. And the 4th Indian division, also effectively confronted Rommel's panzer divisions who were the best troops in the world, with the best equipment in the world, with the best general in the world. There's no military historian that would take issue with me on these claims - but of course, for some strange reason, you seem to know better, and quote me as if I were being radical and sensational. I do not apologize for calling these Indian divisions "magnificent", in military terms, they were - no doubt about it. I also do not apologize for saying the "fascist and brutal Japanese", if you think that British rule was the same as imperial Japanese rule, then I suggest you are completely unsuited to edit this article and should research their activities in China. In the Indian Andaman & Nicobar Islands, the Japanese rounded up "useless" non productive Indian civilians (the old and the sick) and machine gunned them on the beach. Prisoners from the jail, were put on boats and thrown into the sea near Havelock Island, to drown. Indian military prisoners were used as target and bayonet practice for Japanese troops. Entire Chinese cities were flattened and mass rapes took place, millions of Asians were executed (some buried alive) or worked to death. The Japanese also used Asian prisoners for poison gas and biological warfare experiments. The Japanese occupied their territories with millions of troops. Just like the British Raj was it?? Please! It is a fundamentally ridiculous statement.
The Indian Army was the national Army of India. It is perfectly true to say that it was under foreign command - but it was, by definition, still the one and only national Army of India. Volunteers from any nation, who freely enlist themselves in their nation's armed forces (whatever the leadership of those armed forces) are not mercenaries, they might be termed “collaborators” or “ignorant” by some – but they can’t be defined as mercenaries. Their services were never on sale to the highest bidder. The Sikhs who rallied to the British colours in 1857, and who also fought surprisingly well, were also not mercenaries, as they possessed an ideological religious antipathy towards the Muslim nobility against whom the British were fighting.
Unfortunately, the debate with people hostile to this neutral article here, is usually extremely shallow. They merely resort to accusations and name calling, and answer serious questions with nationalistic jingoism, OR they ignore them altogether, OR they make stunningly inappropriate (and often silly) comparisons, without offering up reputable historical data or sources. For example, I asked whether the Mogul & Republic of India articles should get similar treatment to that which you would like to give this article, which is to say, the inclusion of a hostile critique of the period's governance. This is completely relevant as it's all Wikipedia Indian history, and both articles border upon this one. If your answer is "yes" - well go and do it, you can set the precedent for this article, and I will be pleased to give many many suggestions. If the answer is "no", then you are obviously singling out the British period for purely nationalistic and emotional reasons - which isn't acceptable.--
Quote: "Someone who seeks to impose the view that the mafia is "a bunch of thugs that never did anything for anybody" while at the same time seeking to impose the view that the 'Raj' was a model of benevolence with the "introduction of progressive laws to ban slavery and ritualistic human sacrifice, the encouragement of female education, the building of huge dams and bridges, etcetera, etcetera, and so-forth" should not be writing a wikipedia article either on the Mafia or British empire."
Sir - you are extremely rude.
1/ I never said "the 'Raj' was a model of benevolence" - it obviously wasn't, but to a large degree there was an attempt at responsible government, so calling it "criminal" is rather questionable - that is all. Please try to be a bit more civil in your discourse, read what I write, and don't jump to conclusions or grossly exaggerate or put words in my mouth - thank you.
2/ Who on earth said that I was writing any Wikipedia article? I never have - and have no intention of doing so. There you go again!
3/ "introduction of progressive laws to ban slavery and ritualistic human sacrifice, the encouragement of female education, the building of huge dams and bridges" - these are all indisputable historical facts. Please tell me why you want indisputable historical facts to be excluded from this article? Most historians agree that the Raj was a mixed bag of good and bad behaviour on the part of the British. If you don't wish anything remotely positive to be mentioned about the Raj - please explain the nature of your claimed "neutrality".
4/ So, you object to me calling the Italian mafia "thugs"? You think this viewpoint is objectionable?????? This debate is getting too strange for me..... sorry.Blenheim Shots (talk) 20:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler: I entered into this discussion to work through the issues to avoid a so called edit war. You asked me to support my edits, and I have now done so. But it seems (in traditional British manner) the more soundly I work through the issues the more unpleasant you become and the more you focus on personal attacks rather than address the issues. Apparently you have now enlisted someone to attack me on your behalf (an undergraduate student perhaps?). You claim to be neutral, but scratch the surface and we find you are motivated by 'stunning British military achievements' with colonial troops 'fighting magnificently' against the 'fascist and brutal Japanese'. With the horrors of collective punishment, military occupation, racist ideology etc swept under the carpet. Ultimately, you asked me to discuss the issue presumably in an attempt to persuade me that your position is right. Employing stooges to carry out personal attacks and then praising those attacks is not really helpful in this. I would be grateful if you could ask your associate to remove his comments as they do not add to the debate, but instead detract from it. He himself says "Who on earth said that I was writing any Wikipedia article? I never have - and have no intention of doing so." This page is for discussion on improvements to the article, and so people who have no intention to take part in that process really have no place here.
Not only do you seek to defend your position by attacking me but also those academics I cite. Priyamvada Gopal is not a "post-doc in comparative literature" but a lecturer of post-colonial studies at Cambridge. She is one of the authors of a book on post colonialism. [11][12]
I would be grateful if you could simply address the issues to hand. I don't mind if you do so 'grandiosely' or 'arrogantly', or even make the odd snide personal comment but the discussion serves no purpose if you do not address the issues. The issues you yourself set out were 'euphemism', 'occupation', 'colonialism', and to which someone else added 'racism'. I have now dealt with each in some detail, but you have so far ignored them.
Additional important issues are the use of mercenaries by the British and the Martial Race ideology, again are entirely ignored by you. I suspect you know a good deal about this, but so far have said nothing. If as you say you have been involved in writing the current article then I would expect some explanation why these rather important topics were excluded.
What Priyamvada Gopal[13] does in a number of articles for the Guardian is set out quite clearly how the British empire should be viewed, that is the value judgements one places upon historical events. Neo-conservative writers such as Niall Ferguson seek to rehabilitate 'empire', naturally without saying so directly and under the guise of 'neutrality'. To your credit, writers such as Ferguson are not on your list. Ultimately, our discussion is about these value judgements. I believe you started off by claiming that value judgements have no place in a wikipedia article. This is now completely discredited by your endorsement of the 'magnificent british empire' as opposed to the 'fascist and brutal japanese empire'. These kinds of value judgements are of course at the heart of any historical work. That is why, for example, there are as you say different 'schools' of historians. What is not acceptable is to explicitly promote such values, but to discuss them is certainly relevant here.
If you wish to persuade me that the British empire was essentially a good thing it does not help your case by providing me with a list of 21 good things the British empire did and 21 bad things the Japanese did. All you do in fact is expose the fundamental contradiction of your position. You cannot on the one hand claim that the British empire was 'magnificent' and on the other hand claim that the Japanese empire was 'fascist and brutal' and that the Belgian empire was 'criminal'. The British empire was just one of many European empires, all of which were closely related. The Japanese were in effect modeling their efforts on the European empires (even employing British, German and french advisors). If you agree that the Belgian empire was 'criminal' and the Japanese empire was 'cruel' then it follows that the British empire was also 'criminal and cruel'. The Mongol empire on the other hand has little to do with Europe and also belongs to a different era, and therefore has little if any relation to the British empire. The very best you can say is that the British, Belgians and Japanese were 'criminal and cruel' but that the former built a few more railways than the latter (taking one item from your long list).
I have no difficulty in saying that not only was empire a dark chapter of British history, but that the period of empires was a dark chapter in European history (including the later Italian fascist empire (so called) and the greater German empire of German National Socialism), and indeed I made my position on this quite clear at the outset. What you asked for are sources to back up this position. I have provided them for you. But even without these sources, it is the position you are taking on 'the Raj' that we are looking at (as I had simply proposed a few minor changes to provide balance to your biased position, rather than rewriting the entire article). The problem is that you are operating on an inherent logical contradiction. You wish to portray 'the Raj' as magnificent (ie. you are writing the article from that perspective) while at the same time claiming that the Japanese empire was 'fascist and brutal' and the Belgian empire was 'criminal' (and I wonder how you would describe the German and French empires). Again, you are writing the article from that perspective, and deleting content that detracts from that perspective. This is a fundamental contradiction. In mathematics and logic, one way to disprove something is to find a contradiction. History is I understand slightly more flexible, but even so if it can be shown that your position holds a fundamental contradiction then it surely must fail. I do not imagine you need me to provide you with a list of references to show how similar and related the European empires were (essentially an equivalence relation). If you accept that the various empires of the time were essentially equivalent, then it is a fundamental contradiction to present one as 'good' and the other as 'bad'. They are all (and this is quite plainly so) as good or as bad as the other.
I have brought to your attention the example of Korea under Japanese rule which makes the contradiction very clear. This article is plainly written from the view that Japanese rule in Korea was a bad thing (apparently monstrously bad). Because of the equivalence relation, either 'the Raj' article should be rewritten along the same lines or the Korea article should be rewritten along lines of the 'Raj' article. This would be rather extreme of course. I would be happy with a rewrite that brings the English article into line with the German, French, Dutch and Italian articles ... which are precisely on exactly the same subject.
Lastly, despite presenting me with a rather long list of books you say are on your shelf, you have had nothing to say about the etymology of the term 'British Raj'. We all agree it is not the official term, so plainly the etymology belongs in the lead, exactly like the Korea article (the only part of that article worth noting). I haven't found anything satisfactory myself, so if necessary I am willing to contact Ms Gopal in Cambridge to see if she would be willing to prepare a brief etymology. It might also be an idea for her to prepare (if she is willing) a small treatise (just a few paragraphs in a new section) on how the 'British Raj' is seen by various parties (that is how it is viewed by Indian academics, European academics and American academics). This would be just a more neutral distillation of the articles she wrote in the Guardian (and/or elsewhere). This would not be a value judgement itself , but a review on the value judgements placed on the British presence in India by the various 'schools' of thought on the issue (of course with all the relevant citations you were initially so insistent upon) TxB (talk) 18:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) To Relata refero: Yes, but that's not what this page is about. This is a history page, part of the History of South Asia sequence. I began to attend to it, because I wrote a summary outline of the Indian independence movement (also a part of that sequence) for the India page, and in the ensuing discussion on Talk:India, I was requested to expand on it (still in progress). This is an article with a large historical scope and is meant to be written in summary style (and still only half-completed). Meta-discussions are not appropriate for such articles; but, more importantly, if a meta-discussion were to be included, it would be historiography, not Postcolonialism. In the bibliography listed above, Winks's collection, Winks, Robin (Randolp W. Townsend Professor of History, Yale University) (ed.) (2007), Oxford History of the British Empire (Historiography), Oxford and London: Oxford University Press. Pp. 760, ISBN 0199246807 ((citation))
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has generic name (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) is such an example. As for Gopal, the Guardian article itself steps well beyond her expertise (which is fine: an academic-as-journalist has a lot more leeway). Here is a doozy:
"The evidence - researched by scholars such as Amartya Sen, Nicholas Dirks, Mike Davis and Mahmood Mamdani, Caroline Elkins and Walter Rodney - shows that European colonialism brought with it not good governance and freedom, but impoverishment, bloodshed, repression and misery. Joseph Conrad, no radical, described it as "a flabby, pretending, weak-eyed devil of a rapacious and pitiless folly". Good governance? More famines were recorded in the first century of the British Raj than in the previous 2,000 years, including 17-20 million deaths from 1896 to 1900 alone."
First century of the British Raj? (It only lasted 90 years.) And, really, the last 2,000 years? The scholars? Not a single one, with the exception of Dirks (and even he only in his early work, see bibliography above) is a historian of the Raj. And Conrad? How many times will that one sentence (of Cliff Notes fame) be cherry-picked from Marlowe's extended meditation? Should I start quoting what else Conrad said in Lord Jim, Nostromo, and The Nigger of the 'Narcissus'? Sorry, but Gopal is not even remotely an expert on what this page is about. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
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The article should include the contributions of British in shaping the present Indian society. There should be a mention of the discoveries and achivements under the British. For example
The British ruled India in a Democractic manner in which regular elections were held through voting. Although the King remained constitutional head. Prominent British Indian politicians included #Mahatma Gandhi #Jawaharlal Nehru # Muhammad Ali Jinnah and many others. nd I hope the article is written in a fair manner that represents actual history and not just one sided views. Kahasabha (talk) 13:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
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Well, why don't you answer me that if the British were so bad
You don't do well when you say 'British Fan Club'. Going by actions, the Indian Govt. is the biggest British Fan. The fact is when you want to deny the British influence on Indian sub-continent, you deny your own history.
And would you please answer a simple question
To Kahasabha. Your serious and honest questions, will not be answered by TXB on a point-by-point basis, because A. they're correct & B. he doesn't know enough about the points you have raised to form any cohesive and sensible debate - so you are wasting your time. The best you will get, is a few subtle insults - you will be accused of glorifying racism and other such rubbish, and he will put up a smoke screen with some completely ridiculous comparisons - he'll probably start talking about the Jewish holocaust or something (indeed, he already has!). For example, he said that the Japanese occupation of Korea was virtually the same as the Raj - a ridiculous statement. When I offered over 20 major points of dissimilarity, he completely ignored all of them, and carried on talking as if he had won the point. Worst of all, he claims to be "neutral" whilst freely using blanket terms such as "criminal" to describe the entire Raj era, which is clearly dishonest. Not only will TXB completely talk over you - but he will get you confused with other people, he seemed (above) to be confusing my thoughts and observations with those of Fowler & Fowler (who I don't know from Adam). Worst of all - and most unforgiveable - is that he will misquote you. I was writing about certain divisions of the Indian Army, and stated: "not least in two world wars wherein they fought magnificently." He now quotes me as saying: the 'magnificent British empire', and of course, he doesn't bother to answer me about the fighting prowess and significant numbers of the Raj's Indian Army - no way! It's completely discourteous and arrogant behaviour. Like Fowler, I too feel like giving up on this individual because of his dishonesty and troll-like behaviour. We have tried to raise specific points, for a civilized and informative debate with TXB (we gave him the benefit of the doubt) yet he fails to discuss any points raised, and continues with his irrelevant comparisons and crass generalizations. If you or I wrote an article on the British Raj, it would probably emphasize the good aspects, which outweigh the bad. The article in hand, doesn't do anything like that, it is strictly neutral, gives a great deal of information and makes no value judgments. It replaced the most ill-written crass piece of rubbish that I have ever seen on Wikipedia. The reason I post here now and again, to defend the article, is not because the article coincides with my point of view, I think the article is far too timid about British achievements personally, nevertheless, I don't want it to fall into the hands of the likes of TXB, who would happily return it to its former benighted state. May I be so bold as to suggest another point for your interesting list?
How did (on average) 50,000 European troops, control a population of (on average) 400 million people (ratio 1 to 8000) without the substantial cooperation and general consent of that population? This ratio was massively inferior to that which is required for any military occupation. --Blenheim Shots (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC) ....
Bye Bye now Desione, and if you don't want us to think you're a Hindu nationalist, try not to back up your arguments with Hindu Nationalist blog sites - (-;--Blenheim Shots (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Give it a rest will you BS. If you had something to say I would reply to it. You yourself say that you have no interest in conttributing to the article, so please take your rants and extremist rhetoric elsewhere. This page is for discussion by those who wish to contribute to the wikipedia article. In fact, we would be grateful if you could delete your various personal attacks and glorification of 'empire' (which is very offensive to many people, particularly the victims -- such as people from India). Particularly your offensive and borderline racist comments about Indians should go. Snide comments about 'Hindu nationalists' is just unacceptable. Most Indians are both nationalists and Hindu, and there is nothing wrong with being either, or both. TxB (talk) 00:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
1. Quote: "This page is for discussion by those who wish to contribute to the wikipedia article". This talk page, (any talk page), isn't just for people that want to mess with / change the article, it is for general comments & suggestions. Please don't make up Wikipedia rules.
2. Quote: "If you had something to say I would reply to it." - this is exactly your level of debate, isn't it? The points I made, are all rock solid historical facts, that you would find in 1001 books on the subject. You don't answer anybody's points - not just mine.
3: Quote: "In fact, we would be grateful if you could delete your various personal attacks and glorification of 'empire'" --- well, I don't think I did actually give any "glorification" of anythiing, all I did was contradict your unorthodox idea of the Raj's criminality. And who is "we" - Desione, has backed out of the debate, and refuses to help you. Fowler & Fowler defends the article, and Kahasabha seems to agree with me, so quit playing the outraged majority, if you would be so kind.
4: Quote: "offensive and borderline racist comments" - none was intended, and none were made. My wife is from India, and I love India, I really don't understand why you feel you have to scream "racism" just because you are not getting your way.
5: "Most Indians are both nationalists and Hindu, and there is nothing wrong with being either", --- This is truly getting silly... don't confuse nationalism with patriotism. Must I teach you the English language as well as English history?
.....
Dictionary - "nationalism" ...
Main Entry: na·tion·al·ism Pronunciation: \ˈnash-nə-ˌli-zəm, ˈna-shə-nə-ˌli-zəm\ Function: noun loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups. Excessive devotion to nation: excessive or fanatical devotion to a nation and its interests, often associated with a belief that one country is superior to all others
.....
I think your description of most indians being "nationalist" is offensive, please show a little more respect for the Indian people, thanks.
TXB, will you please "give it a rest" as you put it - you don't want to talk history, you won't answer questions and points, you make radical and wild accusations.... you seem to have nothing to contribute, apart from a rabidly anti-British POV and weird and wonderful comparisons. I am open to a historical debate about this page, and ready to consider any replies and sources - but you have no replies, you have no sources. This is all getting very tedious - and please, if you would be so kind, don't call me a racist - thanks.
Kind Regards:--Blenheim Shots (talk) 01:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I think I now understand the comments about 'not feeding the trolls'. BS, I've tried saying it nicely but apparently its not registered. You posts essentially amount to harassment. Please stop it. Otherwise I will have to take more formal steps to deal with it. In future please do not respond to anything I post and I will not respond to anything you put up. I hope you will have enough decency to recognize when someone does not want to talk to you and leave them alone. TxB (talk) 06:34, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
At last, something we both agree upon! Let's not talk any more! In closing, I hope you will have the "decency to recognize" that when you come onto any Wikpedia page with a completely unorthadox viewpoint, you must in future state your sources, and patiently and politely answer the questions of your inevitable critics, rather than simply calling people names and making wild accusations, and when such persons post an objection to such rediculous anti-social behaviour, not to childishly make yourself look like the injured party. May I quote (above) from Fowler & Fowler, a dedicated and highly respected Wikipedian,: "editors can't make up in arrogance, grandiosity or bluster what they so transparently lack in knowledge." - Gee, I wonder who he could have been talking about? Please, TXB, keep your word, and don't reply to this, as this conversation is getting completely pointless. Goodbye, have a nice life. Kind Regards: --Blenheim Shots (talk) 23:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
If we're talking about what the title is, can everyone explain to me why British Indian Empire is unacceptable? --Relata refero (disp.) 12:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Since this page has lately been buffeted with various accusations of bias, let me address that issue directly. An encyclopedia article like this needs stable sources which provide maximum information. For that reason, I have followed Jimbo Wales dictum that it is better to have no information than faulty information. Here, for example, is the kind of problem this page faces from time to time: people will insert something in the article which claims that the British caused famines and attribute it to the economist A. K. Sen via a newspaper article. When that edit is removed, they get upset and accuse the page of bias. Let us, for example, assume someone tried to introduce a paraphrase of Ms. Gopal's quote, "More famines were recorded in the first century of the British Raj than in the previous 2,000 years, including 17-20 million deaths from 1896 to 1900 alone," from the Guardian article that was a subject of discussion above.
Famines are not even remotely my area of expertise, but I can tell you that Sen's precise model is complicated and requires some mathematical sophistication. Moreover, Sen's book (at least the first, I haven't read his later books) concentrated on the Bengal Famine of 1943, which was a very unusual famine (in that it was not preceded by a drought). The model of that book doesn't precisely apply to the incompletely monetised exchange economy of 19th century India. What about the data? The first census of India was conducted by the British in 1871; before that there are very few records: the few there are, are Moghul. And they do mention famines. But, from economic considerations alone, as a overwhelmingly agricultural economy, which was subject to period droughts, India most certainly had famines in earlier years. Wikipedia's page in Famine in India says this as well. British policy, of course, in many cases did exacerbate the misery, but the British also paid attention to the problem, made careful records, and tried to find solutions. In other words, the picture is complicated. The famine code instituted by the British in India remained the basis of most famine-prevention measures all over the world in the 20th-century, including India's. Sen's own practical recommendations were not much different; in fact, at least one reviewer regarded Sen's effort as finally providing rigorous econometric support for the British Indian Famine Code at a time (the 1980s) when governments all over the world were beginning to divest themselves from managing food policy. In addition, Sen is not the only scholar who has looked at Indian famines. A topic as central as that has had continuous literature going back to the 1870s. Ms. Gopal statement in her Guardian article has no basis of consensus in the rigorous literature, and quoting from it becomes the case of the blind citing the one-eyed (figuratively speaking). It belongs to a newspaper article; it doesn't belong to an encyclopedia. This sort of sourcing is the single biggest problem on this page, and keeping it out doesn't mean that one is being biased. Anyway, instead of wasting more time here, why don't I work on the page itself and add a section on Famine, Disease and Public Health. I was going to do it a little later anyway. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Specifically with re famines: The Strachey Commission of the 1890s - run by a Strachey and appointed by a Strachey, in a nice little bit of nepotism that Lytton must have laughed about - did indeed study the effects of famine and it was thanks to the eminently sensible codes subsequently imposed that the famines that had plagued the subcontinent reduced in intensity. (Except during wartime, of course, when the codes went by the board.) It is also true that merely stating that "we don't know how many famines happened under the Mughals" is not quite sensible: it is the general view that the systems imported by the EIC led to the massive increase in severity of famine in the 18th, starting with the Bengal Famine of 1769, which devastated the countryside and initiated that province's long economic decline. How did it happen? Well, the broad principle follows Sen: famine since the 17th c is mainly a problem of purchasing power and transport; massive famines are almost always because of crises in purchasing power; this particular famine, following the accepted narrative - originally that of Amiya Bagchi, I think - was caused because the sudden, massive amounts of coin being sent home by the EIC following its assumption of the Diwani of Bengal caused a crisis in the medium of exchange that exacerbated the effects of a single failed monsoon.
In general, the issue is complex. However, Sen's broad point that famine in modern times is an artificial condition, and one related to political power, is drawn from and directly applicable to the history if India under the Raj, and the political system it established. --Relata refero (disp.) 12:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
There are a lot more, and one who has read works like Kim by Kipling or the vivid descriptions of British Contemptuous attitude documented by Orwell shouldn't really doubt that the Raj was not a noble or glorious mission. And just as an aside, I am sure most of the historians attending here are aware that Churchill had a Nazi Like attitude towards India and suggested that the Bengalees be allowed to starve to death and have the Rice diverted to Greece instead, since the Greeks were fighters (since Bengal famine seems to have been discussed above). Also, upon meeting Nehru in 1950s he adimitted he was surprised that Indians can be pleasant people!
I am sure there are more aspects to it and these needed to first of all unbias the article, and secondly to explain how and why the Indian independence movement started and what was the reasons the Raj had to end. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 13:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
As I had explained in the post above, Churchill is said to have had a Nazi like attitude towards India and Indians. ("gone into Nazi like diatribes" is I believe the exact description used). I believe the description and adjective was given by his own unimpressed secretary or some other Whitehall official, I cant exactly remember who, but it is a well known fact. I dont know how or why you dont know this. That he suggested that Bengalees be allowed to starve so the Greek resistance could be fed is also well known. On the issue of Ilbert Bill, it was a legal reform whose failure is an exemplification of the institutionalised racism of the Empire enterprise which scuttled Ripon's reformist attitude. It is the foundation of the Congress, but it is also important in the Raj story (as Sumit Sarkar says). There is a lot more, from Curzon's speech in the Graduation ceremony of Calcutta University in 1905 which described Honesty among other things to be a Western Value, the lower pay of Indians compared to there European counterparts, racism of Christian Missionaries, the colonial literature (See Kim, I have mentioned above) to other things, everything will point you towards the issue of White superiority over the "Natives". All exemplify the issue of social, institutionalised racism. End of the day, this is just one aspect of the story that needs to be included or it just remains incomplete, and as a lot of people insists, glorifies the empire and sweeps the dirt under the carpet. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 21:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Bose represented a different vision of what it would take to free India from the British and his goals were to do just that. To equate him, even implicitly, with the Nazis is uncalled for and hardly conducive to consensus seeking on the article. On the other hand, I see absolutely no bias in the dry prose that talks about Bose in the article. --RegentsPark (talk) 21:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC) 21:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Relata. I have given some references above which I thought should have helped to write objectively on some aspects of what I believe most people talking about the criticisms of the Raj are trying to say. Overviews of this discussion can be found in most Histories of the Raj (See R.C. Majumdar, Sumit Sarkar, Lawrence James, Barbara and Thomas Metcalf, J.F Riddick...). rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 21:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
To --RegentsPark, to quote you: :"To equate him [Bose], even implicitly, with the Nazis is uncalled for and hardly conducive to consensus seeking on the article." Bose, met Hitler personally, on the basis of receiving aid for his nationalist cause, and he later formed a military organization (albeit a third rate one) to actively partake in combat on the side of the Axis powers. How on earth can such an individual NOT be strongly linked to the Axis, in relation to WWII? Of course he was, and this being the case, we may comfortably equate him [Bose], even implicitly, with the Nazis.
So, gentlemen, let me get this straight, it's fine to say that Winston Churchill (one of the chief architects of the defeat of the Third Reich) had Nazi-like attitudes, but it is somehow offensive to equate Bose (a pro-Axis military commander and petioner to Adolf Hitler) as having anything to do with the Nazis? May I dare to suggest that there is some faulty logic there. As far as the Bengal famine goes, I never understood how the presence of a quarter of a million extra European mouths in mostly Assam, is the main factor for the death of so many people in Bengal (as many Indian academics complain). Even if ALL the requisite food grains had come from Bengal (which they didn’t), this still would have only increased the demand for food in Bengal by less than 1%, as even at the time it had a population of over eighty million. As for the millions of Indian troops, well, these were Indian nationals who would have had to have been fed from the harvests of mother India anyway, regardless. For further reading on this issue, may I recommend: Casey, R.G.: An Australian in India. (Hollis & Carter, London, 1947). Casey was the governor of Bengal who finally solved the problem. As for records of mass famines in ancient India – well, any historian of India will tell you that the written records of pre-Mogul India are at best sketchy, at worst massively tainted or completely missing. It isn’t like British history, wherein we have a very detailed historical record over a thousand years, including a full 11th century census – we have nothing like that for India, so, stating such absolute certainties as there being no widespread famines before EIC rule is I think questionable, nevertheless, the Bengal famine of 1769-1770 was indeed callously mismanaged - although charitable relief and tax exemption schemes were proposed, they were not (except in a very few isolated cases) granted. (Hunter, Sir William Wilson - The Annals Of Rural Bengal, 1868, pp 26-27). May I suggest something for this article? There is no real consensus, there were some terrible errors made during the Raj era, and there were definitely some racist overtones, nevertheless there is also a mammoth list of social reforms, innovations and massive construction projects related to the period of British governance. This influence still resonates strongly in the Republic of India today. Critical OR promotional terminology should not be used on either side, but, to form a balanced - and TRULY neutral article - two paragraphs, one for negative aspects, one for positive aspects, should be added (I think), and then the reader can make up his or her mind based on these facts. --Blenheim Shots (talk) 06:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Blenheim, the issue is of biased attitudes of the Raj that forms one of the basis of its very foundations. It is allright to say Churchill had a Nazi-like attitude because "it is a quote", that he was the British prime minister against an opposing European power has little to do with his personal beliefs and those of his contemporaries. There is nothing faulty there. Churchils views on the Bengal situation is also well documented and I suggest you read up on this before assuming that these are PoV comments. I am by no means an expert on the Bengal famine, may I suggest you read up a bit more on this before assuming that Indian academics complain that it was caused by a million or so European troops to be fed. My meagre knowledge tells me that the famine was precipitated among other things to produce demand mismatch, destruction of transport means (boats) by the Raj's scorched earth policy, exacerbated by hoarding to which Bengal administration gave a fig, and even when rural population came flooding to calcutta to die on the streets, the Bengal Governor was having a ball. I believe The editor of Statesman is held responsible for exposing this by printing pictures of the starving masses and the Governor's ballroom.
I really cant be bothered to discuss Bose with you since first of all Bose is not the issue here, secondly as I have said before, your edits make painstakingly the massive gaps in your knowledge and your strong viewpoints. While I do agree with your last few sentences, I am sorry to say your edit histories (confined to this talk page) and the content of your posts and views that you express leaves with me the sad conclusion that you have a long way to go before making they are beneficial to wikipedia articles, or may at all influence my opinions or views. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 14:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
BlenheimShots, it is just as wrong to equate Churchill with the Nazis as it is to equate Bose with the Nazis. The relationship between Bose and Germany was complex and reducing that complexity by applying a pejorative term is not what wikipedia should be about. But, I agree with Relata Refero that, given that the text in the article is neutrally written, it is best to drop the matter. Your point about famine is hard to understand so all I'll say is that there is plenty of evidence that the various famine deaths during the British Raj were not the result of a deliberate plot to kill all Indians (for one thing, how would the economic argument for the Raj work if all India were depopulated of Indians!) but there is some evidence of poor planning, even incompetence, in the way famines were dealt with (c.f., David Gilmour's book "The Ruling Caste" - a treasure trove of civilian life during the Raj and well worth reading on its own right). About the reforms, innovations, etc that were introduced by the British: sure there were many but there is no way of knowing what India would have been without the Raj. Perhaps there would have been even more construction projects, reforms, etc. etc. Perhaps it would have resembled the Europe of today after internecine wars during the 18th and 19th centuries. Perhaps it would be mired in abject poverty or its various states ruled by despotic regimes. Who the heck knows! That is why I agree with your 'critical or promotional terminology should not be used' and am glad that f&f is doing a fine job of dispassionately relating the facts and events that characterize the period. For the same reason, I would not advocate a 'positive' or 'negative' aspects section but rather a 'Social consequences' and 'Economic consequences' section that describe the two without getting into pluses and minuses because nothing is a plus or minus when the alternative is unknown. --RegentsPark (talk) 15:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC) struggle for equality, and Indian Nationalism]. By Nemai Sadhan Bose, reviewed in the American Historical review.
There are a lot more, and one who has read works like Kim by Kipling or the vivid descriptions of British Contemptuous attitude documented by Orwell shouldn't really doubt that the Raj was not a noble or glorious mission. And just as an aside, I am sure most of the historians attending here are aware that Churchill had a Nazi Like attitude towards India and suggested that the Bengalees be allowed to starve to death and have the Rice diverted to Greece instead, since the Greeks were fighters (since Bengal famine seems to have been discussed above). Also, upon meeting Nehru in 1950s he adimitted he was surprised that Indians can be pleasant people!
I am sure there are more aspects to it and these needed to first of all unbias the article, and secondly to explain how and why the Indian independence movement started and what was the reasons the Raj had to end. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 13:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
As I had explained in the post above, Churchill is said to have had a Nazi like attitude towards India and Indians. ("gone into Nazi like diatribes" is I believe the exact description used). I believe the description and adjective was given by his own unimpressed secretary or some other Whitehall official, I cant exactly remember who, but it is a well known fact. I dont know how or why you dont know this. That he suggested that Bengalees be allowed to starve so the Greek resistance could be fed is also well known. On the issue of Ilbert Bill, it was a legal reform whose failure is an exemplification of the institutionalised racism of the Empire enterprise which scuttled Ripon's reformist attitude. It is the foundation of the Congress, but it is also important in the Raj story (as Sumit Sarkar says). There is a lot more, from Curzon's speech in the Graduation ceremony of Calcutta University in 1905 which described Honesty among other things to be a Western Value, the lower pay of Indians compared to there European counterparts, racism of Christian Missionaries, the colonial literature (See Kim, I have mentioned above) to other things, everything will point you towards the issue of White superiority over the "Natives". All exemplify the issue of social, institutionalised racism. End of the day, this is just one aspect of the story that needs to be included or it just remains incomplete, and as a lot of people insists, glorifies the empire and sweeps the dirt under the carpet. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 21:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Bose represented a different vision of what it would take to free India from the British and his goals were to do just that. To equate him, even implicitly, with the Nazis is uncalled for and hardly conducive to consensus seeking on the article. On the other hand, I see absolutely no bias in the dry prose that talks about Bose in the article. --RegentsPark (talk) 21:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC) 21:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Relata. I have given some references above which I thought should have helped to write objectively on some aspects of what I believe most people talking about the criticisms of the Raj are trying to say. Overviews of this discussion can be found in most Histories of the Raj (See R.C. Majumdar, Sumit Sarkar, Lawrence James, Barbara and Thomas Metcalf, J.F Riddick...). rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 21:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
To --RegentsPark, to quote you: :"To equate him [Bose], even implicitly, with the Nazis is uncalled for and hardly conducive to consensus seeking on the article." Bose, met Hitler personally, on the basis of receiving aid for his nationalist cause, and he later formed a military organization (albeit a third rate one) to actively partake in combat on the side of the Axis powers. How on earth can such an individual NOT be strongly linked to the Axis, in relation to WWII? Of course he was, and this being the case, we may comfortably equate him [Bose], even implicitly, with the Nazis.
So, gentlemen, let me get this straight, it's fine to say that Winston Churchill (one of the chief architects of the defeat of the Third Reich) had Nazi-like attitudes, but it is somehow offensive to equate Bose (a pro-Axis military commander and petioner to Adolf Hitler) as having anything to do with the Nazis? May I dare to suggest that there is some faulty logic there. As far as the Bengal famine goes, I never understood how the presence of a quarter of a million extra European mouths in mostly Assam, is the main factor for the death of so many people in Bengal (as many Indian academics complain). Even if ALL the requisite food grains had come from Bengal (which they didn’t), this still would have only increased the demand for food in Bengal by less than 1%, as even at the time it had a population of over eighty million. As for the millions of Indian troops, well, these were Indian nationals who would have had to have been fed from the harvests of mother India anyway, regardless. For further reading on this issue, may I recommend: Casey, R.G.: An Australian in India. (Hollis & Carter, London, 1947). Casey was the governor of Bengal who finally solved the problem. As for records of mass famines in ancient India – well, any historian of India will tell you that the written records of pre-Mogul India are at best sketchy, at worst massively tainted or completely missing. It isn’t like British history, wherein we have a very detailed historical record over a thousand years, including a full 11th century census – we have nothing like that for India, so, stating such absolute certainties as there being no widespread famines before EIC rule is I think questionable, nevertheless, the Bengal famine of 1769-1770 was indeed callously mismanaged - although charitable relief and tax exemption schemes were proposed, they were not (except in a very few isolated cases) granted. (Hunter, Sir William Wilson - The Annals Of Rural Bengal, 1868, pp 26-27). May I suggest something for this article? There is no real consensus, there were some terrible errors made during the Raj era, and there were definitely some racist overtones, nevertheless there is also a mammoth list of social reforms, innovations and massive construction projects related to the period of British governance. This influence still resonates strongly in the Republic of India today. Critical OR promotional terminology should not be used on either side, but, to form a balanced - and TRULY neutral article - two paragraphs, one for negative aspects, one for positive aspects, should be added (I think), and then the reader can make up his or her mind based on these facts. --Blenheim Shots (talk) 06:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Blenheim, the issue is of biased attitudes of the Raj that forms one of the basis of its very foundations. It is allright to say Churchill had a Nazi-like attitude because "it is a quote", that he was the British prime minister against an opposing European power has little to do with his personal beliefs and those of his contemporaries. There is nothing faulty there. Churchils views on the Bengal situation is also well documented and I suggest you read up on this before assuming that these are PoV comments. I am by no means an expert on the Bengal famine, may I suggest you read up a bit more on this before assuming that Indian academics complain that it was caused by a million or so European troops to be fed. My meagre knowledge tells me that the famine was precipitated among other things to produce demand mismatch, destruction of transport means (boats) by the Raj's scorched earth policy, exacerbated by hoarding to which Bengal administration gave a fig, and even when rural population came flooding to calcutta to die on the streets, the Bengal Governor was having a ball. I believe The editor of Statesman is held responsible for exposing this by printing pictures of the starving masses and the Governor's ballroom.
I really cant be bothered to discuss Bose with you since first of all Bose is not the issue here, secondly as I have said before, your edits make painstakingly the massive gaps in your knowledge and your strong viewpoints. While I do agree with your last few sentences, I am sorry to say your edit histories (confined to this talk page) and the content of your posts and views that you express leaves with me the sad conclusion that you have a long way to go before making they are beneficial to wikipedia articles, or may at all influence my opinions or views. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 14:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
BlenheimShots, it is just as wrong to equate Churchill with the Nazis as it is to equate Bose with the Nazis. The relationship between Bose and Germany was complex and reducing that complexity by applying a pejorative term is not what wikipedia should be about. But, I agree with Relata Refero that, given that the text in the article is neutrally written, it is best to drop the matter. Your point about famine is hard to understand so all I'll say is that there is plenty of evidence that the various famine deaths during the British Raj were not the result of a deliberate plot to kill all Indians (for one thing, how would the economic argument for the Raj work if all India were depopulated of Indians!) but there is some evidence of poor planning, even incompetence, in the way famines were dealt with (c.f., David Gilmour's book "The Ruling Caste" - a treasure trove of civilian life during the Raj and well worth reading on its own right). About the reforms, innovations, etc that were introduced by the British: sure there were many but there is no way of knowing what India would have been without the Raj. Perhaps there would have been even more construction projects, reforms, etc. etc. Perhaps it would have resembled the Europe of today after internecine wars during the 18th and 19th centuries. Perhaps it would be mired in abject poverty or its various states ruled by despotic regimes. Who the heck knows! That is why I agree with your 'critical or promotional terminology should not be used' and am glad that f&f is doing a fine job of dispassionately relating the facts and events that characterize the period. For the same reason, I would not advocate a 'positive' or 'negative' aspects section but rather a 'Social consequences' and 'Economic consequences' section that describe the two without getting into pluses and minuses because nothing is a plus or minus when the alternative is unknown. --RegentsPark (talk) 15:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
To: rueben_lys: It is allright to say Churchill had a Nazi-like attitude because "it is a quote"," -- well I could easilly quote things too that vilify Bose, or that glorify the Raj. To quote highly emotive phrases from hostile parties, does not make it truthful. And rueben_lys: Sir, would you please adopt a more gentlemanly tone? I have had a book published on British India with a respectable Indian publisher which is held at university libraries accross the world including Harvard. Does this make my opinion better or more important than yours? No, not at all, but for the record, here are a list of some of the books I have read, and from which I largely draw my sources in this debate: 1300: Polo, Marco. The Travels (Translation by Ronald Latham, Penguin Books: 1958).1638:Bruton, William: News from the East Indies or, A Voyage to Bengalla, one of the greatest kingdoms under the high and mighty Prince Pedesha Shassallem, usually called the Great Mogull. With the state magnificence of the Court of Malcandy, kept by the Nabob Viceroy, or vice-king under the aforesayd monarch: Also their detestable religion, mad and foppish rites, and ceremonies, and wicked sacrifices and impious costumes used in those parts. Written by William Bruton, now resident in the parish of S. Saviours Southwark, who was an eye and eare witnesse of these following descriptions; and published as he collected them being resident these divers yeares; and now lately come home in the good ship called Hopewell of London, which divers merchants of good account which are able to testifie the same for truth. (Printed at London by I. Oakes and are to be sold by Humphrey Blunden at his shop in Corne-hill at the sign of the castle neere the Royal Exchange.) 1693: Gordon, Pat: Geography Anatomized: Or a Complete Geographical Grammer. Being a short and exact analysis of the whole body of modern geography. After a new, plain and easie method, whereby any person may in a short time attain to the knowledge of that most noble and useful science. (University Microfilms International 1986 - 'Early English Books, 1641-1700'. Printed by Robert Morden and Thomas Cockerid, at the Atlas in Cornhill, and at the Three Leggs in the Pottery, London). 1700: Jones, Dr. John,: The Mysteries of Opium Revealed. (Printed for Richard Smith at the Angel and Bible). 1727:Hamilton, Alexander: A New Account of the East Indies / Being the Observations and remarks of Capt. Alexander Hamilton, who spent his time there from the year 1688 to 1723. (John Mosman, Edinburgh). 1760: Watts, William: Memoirs of the Revolution in Bengal. (K.P. Bagchi & Co Reprint: 1988). 1763: Orme, Robert: A History of the Military Transactions of the British Nation in Indostan from the Year MDCCXLV. (John Nourse, London. Vol. I). 1764: Anonymous: Reflections on the Present State of our East India Affairs. With Many Interesting Anecdotes Never Before Made Public, By A Gentleman Long Resident in India (Printed for T. Lownds in Fleet Street). 1765: Holwell, J.Z.: Interesting Historical Events Relative to the Province of Bengal and the Empire of Indostan. 2 Parts (University Microfilms International 1986). 1766: Grose, John Henry: A Voyage to the East Indies containing Authentic Accounts of the Mogul Government in general, the Viceroyalities of the Deccan and Bengal, with their several subordinate dependencies of Angria, the Morattoes, and Tanjoreans--Of the Mahometan, Gentoo, and Parsee Religions-Of their Customs and Antiquities, with the general reflections on the Trade of India of the European Settlements, particularly those belonging to the English; their respective Factories, Governments, Trade, Fortifications and Public Buildings; the History of the war with the French from 1754 to the conclusion of the General Peace in 1763. (S. Hooper, 25 Ludgate Hill, London). 1772: Bolts, William: Considerations on India Affairs; Particularly Respecting the Present State of Bengal and its Dependencies (Printed for J. Almon in picadilly). 1773: Ives, Edward: A Voyage from England to India in the Year MICCLIV. And an Historical Narrative of The Operations of the Squadron and Army in India, under the Command of Vice Admiral Watson and Colonel Clive, in the years 1755, 1756, 1757; including a correspondence between the Admiral and the Nabob Serajah Dowlah. Interspersed with some interesting passages relating to the manners, customs, &c. of several nations in Indostan. Also, a Journey from Persia to England by an unusual Route, with an Appendix; containing an Account of the Diseases prevalent in Admiral Watson's squadron: A description of most of the Trees, Shrubs and Plants, of India, with their real, or supposed, medicinal virtues; Also a copy of a letter written by a late ingenious Physician, on the Disorders incidental to Europeans at Gonibroon, in the Gulph of Persia. Illustrated with a Chart, Maps, and other copper-plates by Edward Ives, Esq., Formerly Surgeon of Admiral Watson's ship, and of his Majesty's Hospital in the East Indies, London, (Printed for Edward & Charles Dilly). 1778: Orme, Robert: A History of the Military Transactions of the British Nation in Indostan from the Year MDCCXLV. (John Nourse, London. Vol. II). 1780: Sulivan, John: Observations Respecting the Circar of Mazulipatam in a Letter From John Sulivan, Esquire, to the Court of Directors of the East-India Company. (London). 1780: Thompson, Henry Fred: The Inrigues of a Nabob: or, Bengal the Fittest Soil for the Growth of Lust, Injustice and Dishonesty. (Printed for the author). 1780: Anonymous: Thoughts on Improving the Government of the British Territorial Possessions in the East Indies. (Printed for T. Cadell, in the Strand). 1782: MacIntosh, William: Travels in Europe, Asia, and Africa, describing characters, customs, manners, laws, and productions of nature and art, containing various remarks on the political and commercial interests of Great Britain, and delineating, in particular, a new system of the government and improvement of the British settlements of the East Indies: Begun in the year 1777, and finished in 1782. (J. Murray, No. 32 Fleet Street, London). 1784: Stanhope, Phillip Dormer (Penname: Asiaticus): Genuine Memoirs of Asiaticus, in a series of letters to a friend during five years residence in different parts of India, three of which were spent in the service of the Nabob of Arcot, interspersed with anecdotes of several well-known characters, and containing an impartial account of the confinement and death of Lord Pigot, and of the share the Nabob of Arcot had in that deplorable transaction (J. Debrett). 1809: Valentia, Viscount George: Voyages and Travels to India, Ceylon, The Red Sea, Abyssinia, and Egypt 1802, 1803, 1804, 1805 and 1806 (William Miller, Albermarle Street, London,). 1812: Graham, Maria: The Journal of a Residence in India (Archibald & Constable & Co). 1815: Anonymous: Sketches of India; or, Observations Descriptive of the Scenery, &c, in Bengal : Written in India, in the. years 1811, 12, 13, 14; Together with notes on the Cape of Good-Hope, and St. Helena, written at those Places, in Feb, March, and April, 1815 (Printed for Black, Parbury, and Allen, Booksellers to the Hon. East- India Company, Leadenhall Street, London , 1816). 1815: Ward, W.: A View of the History, Literature, and Religion of the Hindoos: Including a Minute Description of their Manners and Customs, and Translations from Their Principal Works In Two Volumes. (The Second Edition, Carefully Abridged, and Greatly Improved. Volume II. Serampore [Calcutta] : Printed at the Mission Press). 1823: Wallace, Lt. R.G.: Fifteen Years in India: Or sketches from a soldier's life. Being an attempt to describe Persons and Things in various parts of Hindostan. From the Journal of an Officer in His Majesty's Service. (Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme and Brown; Paternoster - Row, London 1824: Huggins, William: Sketches in India, Treating on Subjects connected with the Government: Civil and Military Establishments; characters of the European, and Customs of the Native Inhabitants. (John Letts, 32 Cornhill, London). 1824: Anonymous: Sketches of India Written by an Officer for Fireside Travellers at Home (Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme and Brown; Paternoster - Row, London: second edition). 1825: Parkes, Fanny: Wanderings of a Pilgrim, in Search of the Picturesque During Four-and-Twenty Years in the East, with Revelations of Life in the Zenana, Illustrated with Sketches from Nature (Pelham Richardson, London). 1827: Holfland, Barbera: The Young Cadet, or Henry Delamere's Voyage to India, His Travels in Hindostan, His Account of the Burmese War, and The Wonders of Elora (John Harris, corner of St. Paul's Church-yard, London). 1827: Horne, Moffat James. The Adventures of Naufragus written by himself (written under the pseudnym 'Naufrgaus'. Smith Elder & Co. 65 Cornhill, London). 1828: Hamilton, Walter: East India Gazetteer, Containing Particular Descriptions of the Empires, Kingdoms, Principalities, Provinces, Cities, Towns, Districts, Fortresses, Harbours, Rivers, Lakes, &c. of Hindostan and the Adjacent Countries, India Beyond the Ganges and the Eastern Archipelago, Together with Sketches of the manners, Customs, Institutions, Agriculture, Commerce, Manufactures, Revenues, Population, Castes, Religion, History, &c. of their Various Inhabitants. (In 2 Volumes, B. R. Publishing Corp., New Delhi: Distributed by D.K. Publishers, reprint: 1984). 1828: Herber, Bishop: Narrative of a Journey through the Upper Provincesof India, from Calcutta to Bombay, 1824-1825 (John Murray, Albermarle Street, London). 1832: Mundy, Captain G. C.: Pen & Pencil Sketches, Being the Journal of a Tour in India by Captain G. C. Mundy, Late Aide-de-Camp to Lord Combermere, in two volumes. (John Murray, Albermarle St, London,). 1832: Ripa, Mateo: Storia della Fondazione della Congregazione e del Collegio de' Cinesti Sotto il titolo della Sagra Famiglia di G.C., (Napoli, Manfredi). 1833: Archer, Major Edward C.: (Vol. I) Tours in Upper India, And in Parts of the Himalaya Mountains: With Accounts of the Courts of the Native Princes, &c. (VOL. II) Observations on the Local Government of Bengal, and on the Army Attached to the Presidency (London). 1835: Roberts, Emma: Scenes and Characteristics of Hindostan. With Sketches of Anglo-Indian Society (W.H. Allen & Co). 1835: Hobart Counter, Rev. John: Oriental Annual, or Scenes in India: Comprising Twenty-Five Engravings (Bull & Churton, Holles Street, Cavendish Square, London). 1837: Bacon, Lieut. Thomas: First Impressions and Studies from Nature in Hindostan: Embracing an Outline of the Voyage to Calcutta, and Five Years Residence in Bengal and the Doab from 1831 to 1836. (W.H. Allen & Co. Leadenhall Street, London). 1837: Strong, F. P.: Extracts from the Topography and Vital Statistics of Calcutta. (The Strong Papers, courtesy of the Mukherjee Collection. Microfilm: University of Western Sydney, Australia). 1839: Leigh, W.H.: Reconnoitering, Voyages, Travels & Adventures in the New Colonies of South Australia; A particular description of the town of Adelaide, and Kangaroo Island, and an account of the present state of Sydney and parts adjacent, including visits to The Nicobar and other islands of the Indian seas, Calcutta, the Cape of Good Hope, and St. Helena, during the years 1836, 1837 and 1838. (Smith Elder & Co. London). 1839: Malcom, Rev. Howard: Travels in South-Eastern Asia, Embracing Hindustan, Malaya, Siam, and China; with notices on numerous missionary stations and a full account of the Burman Empire (Charles Tilt, Fleet Street, London). 1839: Nugent, Maria, Lady: A Journal from the Year 1811 Till the Year 1815, including a voyage to and a residence in India, with a Tour of the North-western parts of the British possessions in that country, under the Bengal Government (Calcutta). 1839: Anonymous: Memoirs of a Cadet, by a Bengalee (Saunders & Otley, Conduit Street, London). 1842: Fane, Henry Edward: Five Years in India; comprising a narrative of Travels in Bengal, a visit to the court of Ranjeet Sing. A residence in the Himalaya mountains, an account of the late expedition to Cabul and Afghanistan, voyage down the Indus, and a journey overland to England. (Henry Colburn, Great Molborough Street, London). 1843: Davidson, C.L.C.: Diary of Travels and Adventurers in Upper India. (Henry Colburn, Great Marlborough Street, London,). 1843: Johnson, George W.: The Stranger in India: or Three Years in Calcutta (Henry Colburn, Great Marlborough Street, London). 1843 Society for the Acquisition of General Knowledge, Selection of Discourses Read at the Meetings of the Society for the Acquisition of General Knowledge, Vol. III. Mitra, Baboo Peary Chand.: A few desultory Remarks on the ‘Cursory review of the institutions of Hindooism affecting the interest of the female sex,’ contained in the Rev. K. M. Banerjia’s prize essay on native female education. (Read on 12th January, 1842.) (Published in Calcutta, Bishop’s College Press. Courtesy of the Mukherjee Collection. On Microfilm, University of Western Sydney, Australia). 1845: Von Orlich, Captain Leopold: Travels in India, including the Sinde and the Punjab (Translated from German by H. Evens Lloyd, Esq., Longman, Brown, green & Longmans, Peternoster Row, London). 1846: Davidson, G.F.:Trade and Travel in the Far East or Recollections of Twenty-One Years Passed in Java, Singapore, Australia and China (Madden & Malcolm, Leadenhall Street, London.) 1848: Glieg. The Rev. G.R.: The Life of Robert First Lord Clive (John Murray, London. Reprint: 1907). 1850: Colesworthy, G.: Sketches of Calcutta. (Courtesy of the Mukherjee Collection. On microfilm - University of Western Sydney, Australia . Calcutta). 1852: Anonymous: Travels in India, Comprising Sketches of Madras, Calcutta, Benares and the Principle Places on the Ganges; - also the Church of England, Baptist, London Society, and other missionary stations, with observations on the oriigin of customs and worship of the Hindoos, and narratives of incident and adventure, &c. (The author in the preface signs himself 'W.B. - Aberdeen, March 11, 1848'. He otherwise describes himself as a 'London missionary'. James Blackwood, Paternoster Row). 1854: Thornton, Edward: Gazeteer of the Territories Under the Government of The East India Company and of the Native States on the Continent of India. (Wm. H. Allen & Co. London, in four volumes). 1857: Train, Geo. Francis: An American Merchant in Europe, Asia & Australia: A Series of Letters from JavaSingapore, China, Bengal, Egypt, The Holy Land, The Crimea and its Battle Grounds, England, Melbourne, Sydney etc. etc. (G. P. Putnam & Co., 321 Broadway, New York 1860: Russell, William Howard: My Diary in India in the year 1858-9 (Special Correspondent of The Times in two volumes, London). 1861: Bunbury, Thomas: Reminiscences of a Veteran being Personal and Military Adventures in Portugal, Spain, France, Malta, New South Wales, Norfolk Island, New Zealand, Andaman Islands and India (in three volumes, Charles J. Skeet, 10 King William Street, Charing Cross, London). 1866 Trevelyan, G.O.: The Competition Wallah (Macmillan & Co, London). 1868 Hunter, Sir William Wilson: Annals of Rural Bengal (Smith Elder, London). 1869 Atkins, Rev. Thomas: Reminiscences of Twelve Years in Tasmania and New South Wales, Norfolk Island and Moreton Bay; Calcutta, Madras and Cape Town; The United States of America and the Canadas (Printed and published at the Advertiser Office, Edith Walk, Malvern). 1869 Bengal Asiatic Society. Ball, V.: Notes on a Trip to Nicobar & Andaman Islands. 1870: Lewin, T.H.: Wild Races of the Eastern Frontier of India (Mital Publications, New Delhi, reprint: 1984). 1872 Eden, Emily: Letters from India (Richard Bentley, London). 1878 Brown, Samuel Sneade,: Home Letters Written from India Between the Years 1828 & 1841. (Printed for private circulation by C.F. Roworth, Chancery Lane, London). 1882: Eastwick, Edward B. Handbook of the Bengal Presidency: with an Account of Calcutta (J.Murray, London). 1882: Tayler, William: Thirty Eight Years in India (W. H. Allen & Co. Pall Mall, London.) 1886: Anonymous: The Social Evil in Calcutta, its Strengths, its Haunts, its Causes and its Consequences with Suggestions for Hindering its Growth and Rescuing its Victims. (Courtesy of the Mukherjee Collection. On microfilm - University of Western Sydney Australia. Published by Smith City Press, Bentinck 1888: Busteed, H.E.: Echoes From Old Calcutta (Asian Educational Services reprint: 1999). 1892: Carlyon Jenkyns, C.: Hard Life in the Colonies, and Other Experiences by Sea and Land. (T. Fisher Unwin, London). 1896: Booth, Alison, W.: English Life in the City of Palaces. (written under the pseudonym 'Bluebell'. M’Kee & Gamble, Wellington, New Zealand). 1896: C.S.: Leaves from a Diary in Lower Bengal (Macmillan & Co. Ltd, London). 1897: Roberts, Field-Marshal Lord,: Forty-one Years in India, From Subaltern to Commander-in-Chief (Macmillan & Co, Ltd, Londonhailhaffffssssee). 1900: Dickenson, Edith C. M.: What I saw in India and the East (J. L. Bonython & Co., The Advertiser Office, King William Street, Adelaide, Australia). 1901: Fenton, Mrs.: The Journal of Mrs. Fenton - A Narrative of Her Life in India, the Isle of France (Mauritius), and TasmaniaDuring the Years 1826 - 1830. (Edward Arnold, Publisher to the India Office, London). 1901: Fitchett, W.H.: The Tale of the Great Mutiny (George Bell & Sons, London). 1903: Hobbes, John Oliver. Imperial India, Letters from the East (T. Fisher Unwin, Paternoster Square, London). 1905: Debb, Binaya Krishna: The Early History and Growth of Calcutta. (Romesh Chandra Ghose, Calcutta). 1906: Mathews, G. A.: Diary of an Indian Tour (Printed for private circulation by Morrison Gibb Ltd. Edingburgh). 1907: Carey, W. H.: The Good Old Days of John Company: Being Curious Reminiscences Illustrating Manners & Customs of the British in India During the Rule of the East India Company from 1600 – 1857 / Compiled from Newspapers & Other Publications... (revised reprint: R. Cambray & Co. Law & Antiquarian Booksellers & Publishers. Calcutta). 1907: de Lacy, Gertrude: Some Recollections of my Tour with a Musical Comedy Company in India & Java (John Ouseley Limited, Fleet Lane, Farringdon Street, E. C.) 1907: Malleson, Colonel G.B.: Lord Clive and the Establishment of the English in India (The Clarendon Press, London). 1908: Craik, Sir Henry: Impressions of India (Macmillan & Co., London). 1909: Cotton, H.E.A.: Calcutta Old and New.( Surajit C. Das, Calcutta, reprint: 1980). 1909: Allen, B.C. E.A. Gait, C.G.H. Allen, H.F. Howard: Gazetteer of Bengal and North East India (Mittal Publications reprint: 1993). 1914: Coxon, Stanley W.: And That Reminds Me, being incidents of a life spent at sea, and in the Andaman Islands, Burma, Australia, and India (John Lane The Bodley Head Ltd, London). 1918: Massey, Motague: Recollections of Calcutta for Over Half a Century (Thacker Spink, Calcutta). 1921: Moore, Charles: The Sheriffs of Fort William from 1775 to 1920 (Thacker, Spink & Co. Calcutta & Simla). 1923: Bradley-Brit, F.B.: Poems of Henry Louis Vivian Derozio, A Forgotten Anglo-Indian Poet. (Oxford University Press). 1927: Claude Brown, A.: The Ordinary Man’s India (Cecil Palmer, 49 Chandos Street, Covent Garden, London). 1927: Roper, Sir Walter,: The India We Served (Cassell & Co. Ltd, London). 1933: Burnell, John.: Bombay in the days of Queen Anne (includes Burnell's Narrative of his Adventurers in Bengal with an introduction by Sir William Foster, C.I.E., and notes by Sir Even Cotton, C.I.E., and L. M. Anstey. Printed for the Hakluyt Society, London). 1933: MacMunn, George Fletcher Sir: The Underworld of India (Jarrolds, London). 1934: Nehra, Arvind: Letters of an Indian Judge to an English Gentlewoman (Lovat Dickson Limited, London). 1934: Phillips, C.M. & G.E.: Back to India (The Livingstone Press, London) 1936 Jacquemont, Victor: Letters from India 1829-1832 (Macmillan & Co., Ltd., London). 1940 Laipatral, L.: Unhappy India (Publisher unknown, India). 1947 Casey, R.G.: An Australian in India. (Hollis & Carter, London). 1948: Cole, G.D.H.: The Intelligent Man's Guide to the Post-War World (Victor Gollancz Ltd, London). 1961: Beames, John: Memoirs of a Bengal Civilian (Chatto & Windus). 1964: Greenwood, Gordon: The Modern World, A History of our Time (Angus & Robertson, Sydney). 1968: Datta, Dr. Kalikinkar: The Dutch in Bengal & Bihar 1740 - 1825 (Motilal Banarsidaa, Patna). 1977: Chaudhuri, Nirad C.: Robert Clive of India (Jaico Publishing House. Bombay). 1983: Fishlock, Trevor: India File (John Murray, London). 1998: Banerjee, Sumanta: Under the Raj, Prostitution in Colonial Bengal. (Monthly Review Press, New York. First published as Dangerous Outcast: The Prostitute in Nineteenth Century Bengal, Seagull Books, Calcutta). 2001: Weightman, Gavin: The Frozen Water Trade (Harper Collins, London). 2002: Dalrymple, William: White Mughals, Love and Betrayal in Eighteenth-Century India (Harper Collins, London).
So, rueben_lys: I would ask that you graciously forgive the "massive gaps" in my "knowledge" and condescend to have my humble questions and observations on this page. If Churchill had "Nazi like" attitudes towards the Bengalis, millions and millions of Bengali citizens would have been deliberately mass-murdered. Somebody might have said it, making it it a "quote", but it's still a rediculous statement, in my opinion - if I'm allowed to have one that is. I did not say that Indian academics claim that the feeding of European troops was the only cause, but they cite it as the main cause, which I have always found deeply puzzling, given the overall mathematics of the situation. The province was subsequently governed by a self-indulgent and dishonest politician called S. H. Suhrawardy of the Muslim League. During the famine of 1943 he had been the minister in charge of food distribution and it was widely believed he profited greatly from the hardship of fellow Bengalis. In 1942 the rice crop in Bengal had been ruined by a cyclone. In the following year the crop was again ruined by flooding. This alone would not have been a problem as Bengal had previously imported huge amounts of rice from Burma and French Indo-China. This emergency source was, however, interrupted by an INA backed Japanese occupation. You are of course correct, that the confiscation of some vessels was yet another factor. If you would like me to fill you in on any more gaps in your knowledge, just let me know.
To quote you: "exacerbated by hoarding to which Bengal administration gave a fig, and even when rural population came flooding to calcutta to die on the streets, the Bengal Governor was having a ball. I believe The editor of Statesman is held responsible for exposing this by printing pictures of the starving masses and the Governor's ballroom." -- Yes you are correct, but all these problems were soon corrected by Gov. R. G. Casey. Personally, I believe that the British government held about 20% of the blame, nevertheless, I must stress that this is just a personal opinion.
To --RegentsPark, Many thanks for your courteous and considered reply to my observations and queries. My main worry here, is not that any pro-Raj point of view be inserted, but that this well-constructed, highly informative and strictly neutral Wikipedia article should not be edited to favour any point of view. Previous would-be contributors have tried to make serious judgmental edits to the article. I may not have conducted past debates with the requisite amount of decorum, nevertheless, my main bone of contention was that all hostile parties initially introduced themselves as quote: "neutral", but then very quickly began to describe the Raj in highly emotional and desperately negative ways. It then became clear that their professed "neutrality" was merely a Trojan Horse for getting into the body of the article and, through the insertion of highly selective information and negative phraseology, redirect the orientation of the article to to an Indian nationalist or anti-British viewpoint. May I suggest, keeping the article strictly and honestly neutral; that perceived British achievements be listed along with perceived British mismanagement. The reader may then make up their own mind as to the merits or foibles of the Raj rather than have a POV (of any ilk) subliminally or overtly hoisted upon them. The British Raj was not like the Third Reich, The Cultural Revolution or Pol Pot's Cambodia - that is to say, there is no universal consensus that it was overtly destructive, and, I believe, the Wikipedia article should reflect this mixed opinion. --Blenheim Shots (talk) 17:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
To Blenheim, Quotations and memoirs from officials in Churchill's own government can hardly be called hostile. Sure you can find a quote on whoever you wanted to, wether that is reflective or not is a different matter. Wether Churchill had a Nazi like attitude towards Bengalees is not what I said, that he suggested that the Bengalees be allowed to starve and the rice be diverted to the Greek resistance is what I said, and I am sure a number of post 1947 authors in that long list you gave had said so. What I dont understand is how or why Bose must be compared against Churchill??? As for Indian academics claiming a million troops etc, forgive me for assuming you meant what I assumed you meant by your post. As for your long list of books and the claims of having published books (I am not in a position to believe or disbelieve it), congratulations! May I invite you then write in more wikipedia articles outside this talk page. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 18:55, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. As for hungry British mouths being blamed for the famine, for proof of this, please see Wikipedia's highly biased Kolkata page, wherein British troops are cited as the only reason for the famine! Also we read there that "experts" have concluded that the British never founded Calcutta - well the Encyclopedia Britannica and a hundred great historians think they did! There was nothing there called Calcutta or Kolkata before 1690, just three muddy fishing villages. (See Cotton's "Calcutta Old & New"). It also fails to mention that it was the main hub of all Asia's trade, the biggest city in the British Empire after London, and a dozen other really important and interesting facts about British Calcutta, despite the fact that not one notable building has been constructed in Calcutta (Kolkata) since the British left. I grant you this is off-topic, but it just shows you what can happen to an unchecked India article when it falls into the hands of those with an anti-British axe to grind. Not the fate of this one I hope.--Blenheim Shots (talk) 19:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
“ | The discovery of the nearby Chandraketugarh,[15] an archaeological site, provides evidence that the area has been inhabited for over two millennia.[16] The city's documented history, however, begins with the arrival of the British East India Company in 1690, when the Company was consolidating its trade business in Bengal. Job Charnock, an administrator with the Company was traditionally credited as the founder of this city.[17] However, recently experts have endorsed the view that Charnock was not the founder of the city.[18]
In 1702, the British completed the construction of old Fort William,[19] which was used to station its troops and as a regional base. Kolkata (then Calcutta) was declared a Presidency City, and later became the headquarters of the Bengal Presidency.[20] Faced with frequent skirmishes with French forces, in 1756 the British began to upgrade their fortifications. When protests against the militarisation by the Nawab of Bengal Siraj-Ud-Daulah went unheeded he attacked and captured Fort William, leading to the infamous Black Hole incident.[21] A force of Company sepoys and British troops led by Robert Clive recaptured the city the following year.[21] Kolkata was named the capital of British India in 1772, although the capital shifted to the hilly town of Shimla during the summer months every year, starting from the year 1864.[22][dead link] It was during this period that the marshes surrounding the city were drained and the government area was laid out along the banks of the Hooghly River. Richard Wellesley, the Governor General between 1797–1805, was largely responsible for the growth of the city and its public architecture which led to the description of Kolkata as "The City of Palaces".[23] The city was a centre of the British East India Company's opium trade during the 18th and 19th century; locally produced opium was sold at auction in Kolkata, to be shipped to China.[24]... |
” |
which you present as
“ | Also we read there that "experts" have concluded that the British never founded Calcutta - well the Encyclopedia Britannica and a hundred great historians think they did! There was nothing there called Calcutta or Kolkata before 1690, just three muddy fishing villages. (See Cotton's "Calcutta Old & New")... | ” |
So what it says is exactly what it says, ie there was human habitation there evidence of which has been uncovered by Archaelogical research. The "muddy fishing villages" you mention were three villages of Kolkata,Shutanuti, and Gobindapur, which are in fact well known for Conch shell works(one suggestion of the source of the name Kolikata). With all the books listed above, that is what you know is it? If that's what you know or how you approach history or historical evidence, do you really want me to believe that you are the author of a book on British India with implied connotations that you are an expert on this field?Next you are going to tell me there was only half-clad natives running around beofre the Company came founded a big city for them to live in and the industry and crops and cooking. I cant even be bothered to carry on this discussion, enjoy your profound scholarship. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 10:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
PS: Just to update you on Calcutta history since Cotton's death.
Perhaps you would like to update your book with these. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 13:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
The last addition by desione was a drastic overgeneralisation - if it had provided as "some commentators have ....Raj.... as an inherently racist insititution that economically exploited the area" then that would have been something to build upon but "generally regarded" is too broad. GraemeLeggett (talk) 10:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
All this is unacceptable. Listen, will all those who want to add "Criticism" sections to this sort of thing hop over to Soviet Union and check if that state's actions are subject to "criticism" sections or neutral reporting. --Relata refero (disp.) 07:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Given the extremely negative connotations that the word racism has in most 21st century societies I think we should be very careful before applying this fairly modern term to the introductory section. As Desione said there is no shortage of writers labelling the Raj a racist entity, but it is far easier and more fashionable for historians to prattle on about race than look at what was really important, such as politics or economics. Certainly a page on race in British India would be very interesting, but using extremely evocative adjectives in the lead brings you back to the same question, should every other predemocratic regime in the world be flagged up as racist, misogynistic etc in its introductory paragraph. 13:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
"At least they know that they are pushing..." Everyone brings their own bias. The fact that some of the rajophile editors are prepared to admit this should hardly be a stick with which the relativists can beat them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.65.12.62 (talk) 14:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately Indian national pride seems to be a very fragile thing, and the slightest debate that differs from the standard nationalist and often leftist point of view, is greeted with veiled insults, and accusations of racism etc. It's very tiresome. The conduct of some of the people here is incredibly unfriendly, instead of calmly discussing a different point of view; I am instead accused of "ignorance" and "racism" and become the victim of snide comments.
As it happens, I did write a book on British Calcutta:
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/76787853&referer=brief_results
As you can see it is held by some of the greatest universities in the USA, it was published by Deep Prakashan, a well respected non-fiction publisher in the Kolkata. But of course, to add to the insults I have received I am now a liar as well it seems! Charming!
Great buildings of Calcutta built since 1947? Name them! I regret mentioning Calcutta, because it's off topic. Calcutta, as a single civic entity, was started in 1690. There was human habitation there before, as there was human habitation in the areas of almost every city in the world before their founding - it's a non-argument. The question really is WHEN was it established as a single urban entity and named as such. The British named Calcutta, the British established Calcutta as a single entity. There was never a village called Kolkata by the way, it was Kalikatta. And Calcutta was built around Gobindapore. --Blenheim Shots (talk) 12:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Leftist? This rather nasty hindu nationalism stuff is certainly on the right, there are some amongst them (thankfully not too many) who are out and out fascists.But anyway, yeah it's a bit of a problem on wikipedia.
The problem I've found in the past is that those who do not follow such viewpoints try to ignore their own POV and to stick to NPOV; hence when the option for compromise comes up its NPOV vs. far right stuff which means they believe it'd be justified quite some way to the right.--Him and a dog 16:26, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
First of all, to Blenheim. If you feel I have insulted you, you have my sincere apologies as that was not my intention, although I can see my post may have been interpreted that way. On your claims to be T R Barrett (I am not in a position to believe or disbelieve this) and having authored books. that is not really the point. Forgive me, but your book(s) I cant find many world famous libraries, not least in any of those in United Kingdom, and of the London University, nor can I find much of your research or scholarly work. As for the history of Calcutta, that is totally off-topic so I wont waste time much, but I have tried to point out very briefly earlier why you were wrong but I dont think it came out clearly, and I dont think you see the indications from the more recent works either. As for newer buidings, Saltlake Stadium, Science city, energy park, infinity towers, Vidyasagr Setu, Millenium park... On the issue of famine (again, this is more off topic than NPOVing this article), I had pointed out that you are disputing and rubbishing something referenced to Amartya Sen. I had explained I have not verified the reference, but forgive me for assigning more weight to Sen's interpretations, if they are really his, than your interpretations. As for Indian national pride, I am not sure what that has to do with the historical connotations and modern interpretations of the charactereistics and social and moral foundations of the Raj. Granted a lot of editors hold very strong views on the negative aspects of the Raj, but perhaps it will help to analyse why and where it originates from as a different editor had tried to present, with works of an author with rather wider publication and profile (I am talking of P Gopal) than the limited profile and work I can find of T R Barett. With all due courtesy, your posts and approach has given me no reason to believe that you are either interested in improving this article (you have only edited this talk page), nor that you will try to. Further, your views suggests to me you cling on to a very 1940s cambridge view of the Holy British empire that I dont subscribe to with factual reasoning, nor do I think a lot of people do. Fowler, on the other hand has a long and distinguished history of editing India related articles, and while I may differ with him on certain views and issues, I have every confidence that he will do a very good job, and any differences and shortfalls can be worked through.
Secondly to Josquius, I dont know if you are referring to myself and I have not had any previous experience of editing on similar grounds, but if you are accusing me of nationalistic or communallistic narrowmindedness, I will urge you to analyse my edit history, contributions and reform your opinion. On the issues of NPOV, I think you will find it more fruitful not to dismiss disagreeing opinions as nationalist PoV and in general evil, since attempting to address these often improves the article and will also uncover new knowledge. Granted you will find occasional few who do not budge, nor wish to debate, but perhaps it is very unhelpful to descend to their level. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 18:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
To: rueben_lys. You are right, I am not a famed historian, although I have read enough to conduct a debate, and I will quote reputable and recognized sources when asked. I mentioned my book not to show off or pull rank, but to simply counter accusations of my supposed "ignorance" - that's all. If the likes of Harvard University see fit to grace their bookshelves with my thoughts and musings, I humbly ask that my thoughts and musings may appear on this Wikipedia talk page also. I am 100% happy to quote reputable sources for any statements I make, and to patiently answer questions, if any should arise.
As for me NOT editing the actual article, as it stands - I won't do it, because I respect it as a truly neutral and scholarly Wikipedia article, nevertheless, I will continue to voice opposition (here) to chunks of it falling into the hands of Indian nationalists who wish to introduce words like "criminal" into the opening paragraph of the article, and the like. That's why I do this. That's why I'm here.
As for Calcutta, I don't wish to run the city down, not least because I love Calcutta. The buildings you mention are OK but not "great", and I will leave it there, I'm not going to defend my original statement (if you don't mind) as it will come across as an attack on modern Calcutta, which wouldn't be my point anyway, and moreover, it's off topic.
To: Him I don't dispute a thing you say, you are correct on all counts. My "leftist" comments mainly refer to West Bengal's government, and a few of their Marxist historians. Unfortunately, it is a topic that stirs a lot of negative emotion amongst some Indians. Indians rightly see themselves as being a great Asiatic nation up there with Japan and China. The fact that they were taken over and ruled by a distant island, with about 4% of their population, is of course a perceived blow to national pride. And when you touch upon anybody's national pride, you must expect subjective opposition. It's a shame, because the aim is not to affront anybody, least of all the citizens of that fine country. Of course the Raj had some questionable attributes, and personally I think that India should have been left well alone by all European powers, yet, that having been said, we can't allow this page to become an Indian nationalist's daydream about the "criminal evil genocidal" British. I think that any critique of the Raj here, should:
A. Not be summed up in short detrimental sound bites, be they quotes or otherwise.
B. Not to go into hypothetical analysis, to muse on what might have been.
C. Not to make highly simplistic comparisons between the economy of British India, and the economy of early 17th century India. Even Indian college books (rightly) teach that in the first half of the 18th century, India went into a catastrophic economic and social decline - none of which had anything to do with the British.--Blenheim Shots (talk) 22:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad everyone's got that out of their system. Now that we're satisfied as to the dastardly motivations of everyone else, can I put a period to this discussion and suggest we discuss specific sections. Unless anyone can provide a lead stating that it is the consensus among academic historians that the Raj was "genocidal" or "criminal" or "beneficial" none of those value-laden terms are going anywhere into the article, and particularly not near the lead. --Relata refero (disp.) 20:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Your blind revert on British Raj talk pages gives the impression of vandalism. If you have any specific issues with the text please discuss on the talk pages. Thanks Desione (talk) 18:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Since User:Desione, a blatant anti-British POV pusher, is making continuous tendentious edits in the article and is hellbent to insert his POV in the lead by adding this paragraph, a straw poll is necessary to seek consensus. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
First of all, the sources presented are actually personal views of some historians. We should not present their personal views as fact. Second of all, the lead section should avoid any value-laden term and characterization of the British Raj e.g. Raj was "bad", "benign", "racist", "good" etc etc. The lead section should include the history of Raj, i.e. the period it existed and a short note on geography i.e. geographical boundary of the Raj. Any characterization of the Raj in the lead will be violation of NPOV. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 20:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Funny that people are arguing primarily from their personal opinion and unable to bring up reliable sources that argue otherwise, yet they continue to stick to biases. Finally WP:RS goes into trash. Good luck. No need to bring up ANY reliable sources from now on in wikipedia. Desione (talk) 21:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Quote: Desione (talk) "...every attempt is being made to show British Raj in a positive manner or failing that in a uncharacteristic benign manner or failing that in a way that would bury negative aspects deep in the article." Please quote the parts of the article which show the Raj in a "benign manner". I have asked this from various people posting here, and never seem to get an answer. You must specifically say which sentence or statement in the article contains a historically inaccurate statement. If you are unable to do so, there is no reason for anybody here to take you seriously. Desione, you talk about this mythical consensus amongst historians, but when asked to provide simple quotes from respected sources, you fail to do so. Indeed, I must be “ignorant” (as you so politely put it) because I don’t know who the “International Workgroup for Indigenous Affairs” are, nor why they should be quoted as historical source material. Let's face it, there is no consensus. I recall that previously you wished to enter into this article that the British ruled India for “almost 250 years” (see above) - on the basis of this massive error alone, I think you have an extremely limited understanding of the subject matter and should not be trusted with editing this well-crafted, polished, scholarly and strictly neutral Wikipedia article. You also seem to think that other people must “prove a negative”. If I wanted to put an inaccurate statement into the article, such as “the British founded the city of Bombay” – it would be up to me to prove that they did and to justify the inclusion. It would not be up to others to prove they didn’t. Nor would it be sufficient for me to simply say that “most historians agree that it is so” and then to quote some obscure social pressure group as my historical source. As for India having been invaded many times, well, previous Muslim invaders were all Asiatics and soon assimilated themselves into mainstream India. The British were non-Asiatic, of a different hue, and the majority failed to assimilate, this of course singles out British rule as quite distinct and why it is primarily targeted by Indian nationalists, over and above all other foreign incursions. As for non-Muslim invasions, these happened far too long ago to invoke xenophobic and nationalist passions, unlike the British period, which is still within living memory.--Blenheim Shots (talk) 03:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Ongoing discussion aside, there is some older material (March and early April) on this page that could probably be archived. The usual method for this page, though, is to archive by moving the whole page to an archive. Good in theory, but there have been enough recent discussions that I am hesitant to archive in this manner. Are there objections to archiving older conversations using another method? UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 12:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
British India redirects to this page, instead of the page British India (band). Can someone fix that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.118.39 (talk) 05:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
would be a better & more appropriate & more meaningful & comprehensive title for the article. The word 'Raj' in the title 'British Raj' is not an English word & does not have any meaning in English.The colony extended from Burma to Afghanistan, & Nepal to Maldive Islands, so it covered more than India. And so it will include Hindustan irrespectively whether it was ruled by the British Government indirectly by proxy via the officers of the British East India Company since the start of British colonization in 1637AD there or directly by British Government through a Viceroy as 'Indian Empire' since 1857AD to its end in 1947. ILAKNA (talk) 08:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
'Raj' is commonly encountered in the names of Indian restaurants, it is therefore not unknown within wider English speaking society. Moreover the term ‘the Raj’ is well known and understood as a reference to the British Indian empire. Both in contemporary and historical usage. It was also (in an historical context) referred to as the Indian empire, and as such is the most likely (and indeed most commonly encountered) name for both the era and area. The article is about the era of direct rule from London. It should make reference (and does) to the wider historical context, but there are other articles that deal with other periods of Indian history. [[Slatersteven (talk) 15:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)]]
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