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Page was created as summary-style article split from Dutch language. Diff: [1] CIreland (talk) 18:10, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can see, there is no contradiction whatsoever between the content of this article and that of nl:Nederlandse dialecten, let alone a serious one. Who is responsible for this tag and on what grounds could it have been assigned? I am very curious to hear which reservations on whose side there possibly could be here. It looks like some unexplicable mystery. -- Ad43 (talk) 14:58, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
This article is a part of a series on |
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Low Saxon dialects |
West Low Franconian dialects |
East Low Franconian dialects |
The whole article lacks focus. Its subject is not clearly defined. It should about either:
The definition:
does not make much sense. By this definition French Flemish would not be a Dutch dialect, while Lower Saxon would arguably be. Then the article goes on to mention several dialects outside the area of the Dutch standard language.
So what should it be? All dialects spoken in the Netherlands (including Frisian), or, as I would suggest, all dialect varieties of modern Lower Frankish (of which Dutch is the only official standard language). This would exclude Frisian and Lower Saxon.--Joostik (talk) 19:00, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
The previous text read:
'Zeelandic (Zeeuws) is spoken in most of Zeeland (Netherlands) and is a transitional regional language between West Flemish and Hollandic. In the eastern part of Zeelandic Flanders, East Flemish is spoken.'
Zeelandic, however, does not cross a border. East Flemish, on the other hand, does so I have changed the text accordingly. Collideascope (talk) 20:49, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
http://www.wjheeringa.nl/thesis/thesis09.pdf is a scientfic study. It has the following groups, which should -apart from the Frisian varieties- entered into the article, but changed formally.
Limburgish would therefore be too narrow. I therefore suggest using the term Meuse-Rhenish.
Sarcelles (talk) 06:11, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
North Bergish area, usually seen as Limburgish. However, it only includes Germany. Dialektologie. 2. Halbband Werner Besch, Ulrich Knoop, Wolfgang Putschke, Herbert E. Wiegand Walter de Gruyter, 2008 p. 858/859 has Ripuarian as to include
Sarcelles (talk) 17:58, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
http://www.wjheeringa.nl/thesis/thesis09.pdf has the following places as having Frisian mixed varieties classified as town Frisian varieties, the other Frisian mixed varieties being stellingweerfs:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240956524_To_What_Extent_are_Surnames_Words_Comparing_Geographic_Patterns_of_Surname_and_Dialect_Variation_in_the_Netherlands There are two dialect maps of the Netherlands, labelled 4 and 5. 4 has the following clusters: Low Saxon, Friso-Saxon, Low Franconian, Central Gelderland, Zeeland, Low Franconian as well as the three, remote, quite neighbouring clusters Frisian, Franco-Frisian and Archaic Frisisan (in Hindeloopen, Schiermonnikoog and Terschelling) 5 has Limburg North of Venlo as a separate dialect area.
Clustering in this article includes the following possible categories not mentioned hitherto:
Zeeland and Central Gelderland. Midsland, Ameland island and Het Bildt can be grouped together.
Leeuwarden and possibly Sneek can be grouped together. Dokkum, Stavoren, Kollum and possibly Heerenveen can have single varieties.
The varieties in the Netherlands can be grouped into a major Low Franconian group, the one around Almere and the rest. Limburg is divided into a small area around Weert, a large area until Venlo and an area North of this. There is another major group: Low Saxon divided into three areas. Urk is separate. Friesland hosts many of the varieties obtained. They can be divided into
Frisian, archaic Frisian (Hindeloopen, Schiermonnikoog and Terschelling island),
Friso-Franconian varieties (Frisian cities, Midsland, Ameland island and Het Bildt) and Friso-Saxon (in Stellingwerf and variously also Westerkwartier).
Possible clustering includes the following possible categories not mentioned hitherto:
Zeeland and Central Gelderland.
Midsland, Ameland island and Het Bildt can be grouped together. Leeuwarden and possibly Sneek can be grouped together. Dokkum, Stavoren, Kollum and possibly Heerenveen can have single varieties. [1] has the following views: Bildts, Midslands, Stadsfries, and Amelands can be grouped with Frisian varieties of Friesland. The closest cluster to this cluster is that formed by Westerkwartier and Stellingwerf. Hollandic, Zeelandic and West-Veluws can be grouped as Centraal westelijke dialecten. Among those, not only Hollandic borders to Centraal zuidelijke dialecten, which encompasses Brabantic and parts of Northern Dutch Limburg and Northern Belgium Limburg. The group, but not Hollandic, borders to non-Groningian Low Saxon and Flemish dialects. The dialect of Urk is closest to the group. The clusters grouping with the group including Hollandic are: Zuidwest-Limburg and Centraal zuidelijke dialecten as well as Tienen.
As cited in http://www.wjheeringa.nl/papers/drie02.pdf, Cor & Geer Hoppenbrouwers, De indeling van de Nederlandse streektalen: Dialecten van 156 steden en dorpen geklasseerd volgens de FFM, 2001, used feature-frequency method:
1. Nedersaksisch 1.1 GRONINGS EN NOORD-DRENTS, MIDDEN-DRENTS EN WESTERWOLDS, TWENTS 1.2 Zuid-Drents en Noord-Overijssels, Terrassen naar de Twentse kern 2. Fries 2.1 Fries 2.1.1 DE FRIESE DIALECTEN 2.1.2 Stadfries, Kollumerlands, Bildts, Stellingwerfs 2.2 Veluwse overgangsdialecten 3. Hollands, Noord-Brabants 3.1 Hollands 3.1.1 Noord-Hollands 3.1.2 Zuid-Hollands en Utrechts 3.2 Noord-Brabants 3.2.1 OOST-BRABANTS 3.2.2 Dialecten in het Gelders Rivierengebied, West-Brabants 4. Noord-Belgisch 4.1 CENTRAAL BRABANTS 4.2 Periferisch Brabants 4.2.1 Zeeuws 4.2.2 Brabants 4.3 Periferisch Vlaams 4.4 CENTRAAL VLAAMS 5 Limburgs
Nicoline van der Sijs (ed.): Dialectatlas van het Nederlands Amsterdam: Bakker, 2011, p. 60 has the following clusters for Flanders and the Netherlands:
and Utrecht respectively are within Hollandse Mengdialecten. The other language island is around Gouda and Woerden. From Grijpskerk, a belt is running to Amsterdam, shortly interrupted.
Sarcelles (talk) 10:15, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Sarcelles (talk) 08:48, 27 January 2024 (UTC)