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although almost always overshadowed by the more prevalent carriers of Haplogroup R or Haplogroup N.
Overshadowed by N? I'd hardly say the I1a group is ever overshadowed by N within the boundries of northern Europe; maybe only select places in Finland. Nagelfar 00:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I have put up a suggestion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals to create a new WikiProject, WikiProject: Genetic History.
To quote from what I've written there:
If people think this would be a good idea, it's a target for WikiProjects to have at least five "interested" signatures to show there's some support, before they get going.
Alternatively, if people think it would be a bad idea, please leave a comment in the comments section.
Either way, please show what you think, at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Genetic_History
Thanks, Jheald (talk) 13:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
a little late - but i'm for it! (went to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Genetic_History . . . . didn't see this )
betswiki (talk) 20:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
what is the status of this? -- Aaron # Aaronjhill (talk) 10:30am, 14 November 2008 (PST)
I still find myself regrettably disagreeing with the some of Aaronjhill's edits. Things like mentioning of Anglo-Frisian languages seems off topic and not tied directly to the matter at hand of the I1a haplogroup. Maybe someone can arbitrate a change. Nagelfar (talk) 07:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Another off-topic addition is this material about J.R.R. Tolkien. The growing evidence that the Norman Conquest was not important genetically has little bearing on the unrefuted view that it resulted in a major shift in the English language. Tolkien was a philologist and linguistic change was his primary interest. The term "cultural" change here seems to conflate the archaeological sense of the word with the conventional usage. But Tolkien never believed that the Normans obliterated Anglo-Saxon peoples and their everday culture. At the same time, no one can seriously dispute that Norman culture completely obliterated Anglo-Saxon palace culture. So the entry is off the mark in implying that Tolkien held views that he didn't and for implying that those views had anything at all to do with the actual topic of this entry. Ftjrwrites (talk) 19:54, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
By which official source should we consider the page move of the haplogroup to its re-designation as "I1" (and the same for the I1b page to I2)? This is difficult for me to consider crossing the line to action because wikipedia goes on notability and the most prevalent terminology (in this case I1a), but it is also meant to keep up on factual information by boldness and the newest official information on subjects. What announcement will herald the change? Because from what I've been reading lately, it is most assured that it is now considered I1. Nagelfar (talk) 10:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
A test by FTDNA by Thomas Krahn with haplotypes selected by Ken Nordtvedt for several potential subclade SNPs has shown none of them to appear worthwhile in actually separating I1. The SNP rs17249889 is derived for all disparate haplotypes in the chip selected for the I1 SNP which was discovered via deCODEme company tests (i.e. equivalent to known SNPs in the haplogroup). rs35547782 was found to be ancestral for all I1 samples. Maybe however, since the knowledge is so little and the pool of SNPs so small, this is an important thing for a wiki, in terms of how much information gets passed along. Maybe until it becomes too small of a fact (which it isn't yet) we could have a list of known private SNPs in I1. Nagelfar (talk) 21:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
For several years the prevailing theory was that during the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) the I1 group sought refuge in the Balkans. Is this correct? I've read a lot about I-HG in last few years and have never found such theory. Until recently classification of I haplogroup was I1a and I1c (South France refugium) and I1b (Balkan refiugium). It was never defined that I1a and I1c originated in the Balkans. In the meantime marks are changed so I1a and I1c became I1a and I1b2a - both subgroups of I1, while I1b became I2a of I2. Is this just mistake made because of the changed marks? Zenanarh (talk) 14:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
There's way too much speculation and synthesis on this page. The acceptance of certain assumptions that have not been cited is considered a synthesis on Wikipedia. Please don't assume that you can associate I1 distribution with historical or mythical events, you can't. What you can do is cite sources that associate movements of people with migrations of I1. On the whole it is best to stick to a description of the distribution of I1 in Europe and the estimated founding events for subclades etc. We don't even know if large population moveents, such as the so called folk wandering occurred, it's a theory and many archaeologists think it has serious flaws, not least the idea that large groups of people could move about freely through a heavily forested continent where there were no roads. Most UK archaeologists thesedays dismiss large folk wanderings as myth, and practically impossible. Y chromosomes do have a geographic distribution, but they can rarely be assigned to specific ethnic groups, and it is OR to associate Y chromosomes too closely with any specific ethnic group unless a reliable source does so. Furthermore one should not impose our own modern world view onto the past, we do not know the ethnic makeup of the peoples of prehistory, we should not assume that these people viewed themselves as belonging to groups that we can recognise in the modern world. That's basic anthropology. Ideas like "Celt", "Germanic", "Anglo-Saxon", when applied to peoples rather than language groups are modern ideas (even inventions according to the archaeologist Simon James), we should not assume that we know what happened in prehistory, or that the peoples who lived there were ethnically identifiable to us today, because we don't. Stick to the facts, populations, geography, founding estimates etc. Scientific facts we can verify. Alun (talk) 07:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
While it's all very well to point out fallacies in ideas that became too pervasive, such as folk movements, as a resident of the Americas, I find the extreme denial of large folk wanderings to be highly amusing. Some clever revisionist archeologist will come along 40 centuries from now and tell us that legends of large New World population groups being descended from Europeans and Africans cannot possibly be accurate for the same reasons you now cite -- there are obstacles and the consensus has turned against it. But, obviously, folk do wander! It's just a matter of whether particular folk wandered, and if so, where, when, and with what effect on later populations. The rest of your points are mostly well-taken, but still, rendered absurd if taken too far. If there was not some degree of correlation between ethnicity and genetics, then we would have found a relatively equal mix of all haplotypes spread throughout all the world's populations. But it is because ethnicities tend to be dominated by genetically related groups in their genesis that we do find some populations with a relatively limited genetic ancestry, and others with a diverse genetic makeup, but each at a signficantly differnt mixture. This precisely because massive folk movement has occurred throughout both prehistory and history. The bias against folk wandering in the UK archaeological establishment predates the era of advances in genetics, and the prevailing consensus has not yet digested the implications of DNA studies, other than defending itself against some claims and laying hold of others as supporting the consensus. Ultimately, if they are not to become obsolete, British archeologists will need to re-evaluate all of their presuppositions in light of the new evidence. Today's consensus replaced an old consensus. Scientific progress will occur when today's consensus itself is consigned to the dustbin of history. Ftjrwrites (talk) 20:21, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
On one of the genetic genealogy forums elsewhere, someone posted two images of the lower part of Scandinavia / Denmark and Germany etc., with a frequency map of Y-haplogroup I1, and a map of the archaeological instances of ring-button swords. They seemed to match up perfectly (high frequency of I1 and the increase in instances of these finds). I know it is probably coincidence and of course until published an example of original research, but might someone who keeps tabs on these threads elsewhere on the internet for such topics have kept a link or know where to find at least the archaeology image of where the ring-button swords appeared or even this specific frequency map of I1? Nagelfar (talk) 01:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
The above article has been listed for deletion. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups. Wapondaponda (talk) 04:37, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
The map of the distribution of the haplogroup has some strange texture applied to it, and bears this disclaimer:
"Please note that this image is an artistic interpretation of scientific data."
I believe scientific artistic interpretation of charts and maps should not be allowed on Wikipedia. It's a nice looking map, but I'd rather see the actual data.
Also, the map makes it seem like the populations of Danmark, Norway and Sweden are 100% saturated with the haplogroup, whereas it's actually only about 40% who have it.
Sources are listed on the image page. If you want to see the data, follow the links.
Balanovsky et al (2008) Figure 4, Map A. Distribution of Y Chromosomal Haplogroups I1a, I1b, J2, and E3b in Europe
Rootsi et al (2004) Figure 1, Map C. Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe
There's an entire section within the portion of the article dealing with Britain that, as it currently stands, seems totally out of place and therefore misleading. After an apparently objective discussion of the recent scholarly trends in examining the genetics of Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Danes in the British Isles, the article begins discussing the Norman conquest and notes that genetic studies identifies very minimal Norman contribution to the genetic record of the modern British. So far, so good. But then the article begins discussing this as a refutation of J.R.R. Tolkien's belief that the Normans had wiped out Anglo-Saxon cultural traditions. While Tolkien's views are certainly a matter of debate, they have nothing to do with genetics. He was never concerned with the ancestral lineage of the modern British, but with the cultural legacy of pre-Norman Anglo-Saxons, which he believed had been lost to an invasive culture. One has nothing to do with the other. I'd like to take this section out of the article, but I'm interested in hearing whether there are any objections first. Ftjrwrites (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:21, 2 February 2011 (UTC).
To editors who have worked on this article: I can see a lot of work has gone into it, but if an unsympathetic Wikipedian comes along and realizes what the true nature of most of the sources are, it may end up being slashed and burned. If the structure is to be kept in any way, you urgently need to get better sourcing and I am afraid that will mean pruning a lot of the most speculative stuff. I think it is unfortunate, but the fact of the matter is that very little has been published about I1, and on Wikipedia we are going to have to restrict ourselves to what is published. Most of the published articles being used as supposed sources for this article did not even test for I1. A lot of the sources are on Ken Nordtvedt's personal webpage, or forum posts by him. I have full respect for Ken, but if he does not get out and actually publish his stuff somewhere other than his webpage then we can't use Wikipedia as the FIRST place for his theories to be published. (The only Wikipedia arguments for using a person's personal web postings WP:SPS do not unfortunately apply to Ken: he is not a person cited in the literature as a geneticist. Maybe he should be, but again, it would probably help if he actually published more. How can academics cite his personal notes and forum postings?)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:54, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Duly slashed and burned. --Genie (talk) 16:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
I1 IS VERY USUAL IN THE BALKANS, EVEN SHOWING ONE OF THE GREATEST CONCENTRATIONS IN EUROPE. THE ARTICLE AND THE MAP IS CLEARLY MISLEADING IN THIS RESPECT.
SEE: http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
THEREFORE I WILL DELETE THE MAP, WHICH IS INCREDIBLY INACURATE, UNTIL A GOOD ONE IS CREATED. WELL, I WILL LEAVE IT BECAUSE MOST OF THE ARTICLE SHOULD BE CHANGED. I HOPE OTHER GOOD EDITORS DO IT. RIGHT NOW IT IS INCREDIBLY BAD. POOK
POOK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.74.163.240 (talk) 17:46, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
From Vaeringjar - Please do not use all caps. Also, you incorrectly state that I1 shows one the greatest concentrations in the Balkans. You are referring to I2. That is not the case for I1.
Vaeringjar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bodhi141 (talk • contribs) 20:14, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
The decision to mass delete everything in this article, despite some questionable content, is very disappointing. This article is so watered down, that I find is neither useful nor interesting. Further, I have read the comments about sourcing academic journals. While I think that is a fine goal to strive for, we all know that just because information makes it into a journal does not make it true. How is wikipedia to remain relevant in the 21st Century when the flow of new information is increasing exponentially. The ramifications for these wiki entries is that by the time information has made it into an academic journal to become sourcable, the information therein will be stale in the best of cases or just outdating or wrong in the worst. As an example, suppose I update the weather section for the planet Mars. My source is the Mars Science Labratory which is sitting on the surface monitoring the weather. No one is likely to put that in an academic journal but it is true nevertheless. Additionally, the reliance upon academians to study topics ebbs and flows with the funds that are available for certain projects. I fear that this will severely curtail topics that are unpopular for funding and brings a commercial element to the information that everyone here has so firmly stood against. The science being done in this particular field is largely being done by the I1 community. Corporations are not interested in the field and I do not see anyone at the university level doing anything worthwhile.
Vaeringjar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bodhi141 (talk • contribs) 20:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I would agree with Vaeringjar that it was a poor decision to severely edit the I1 Origins section. Right now it does not appear we have much published information from academics on the origins of I1. In this case Dr. Ken Nordtvedt is the best source we have for facts on I1. I vote we undo the edits and add Dr. Nordtvedt's data back into the origins section.
Heinz von Biboo — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hein von Biboo (talk • contribs) 18:04, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
If you find fault in a section please explain specifically what you are looking for before deleting entire sections. Many of the authors of these sections are members of the I1 community and are very knowledgable of the subject matter which is changing at a quick rate of speed. The reality is that a fact does not need to appear in an academic journal to justify its inclusion. Wikipedia states that published, meaning publicly available sources, are considered acceptable. There are many sources of information besides academic journals. The internet is rich with information that these paragraphs reference when it comes to population data and other facts. Please exshare your interest in this article topic. Are you an academian? Are you an anthopologist? We would like to know what you are trying to do so that the community can work together on this page in a constructive manner.
Bodhi141 (talk) 12:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
Why do you hide that Bosnia has the largest % of this haplogroup? The map is FALSE!!! The very "honorable members" who have written these lies are just CRIMINALS in service of Vatican's satanists who want to hide why Serbs have been attacked over and ove again! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.227.244.217 (talk) 17:06, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
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This map [1] should be removed form info box, for one it has no verifiable source to reference. Also, the map makes some very peculiar claims, notice how the area of Pomorze in Poland on the Baltic coast has a very high concentration of HG I1, however anyone with a bit of history knows that this area was inhabited by Slavic tribes around the year 1000 AD, then German settlers moved in, and then after WWII, the German population was expelled and Poles form the east were moved in. With all the population shifts in the last 1000 years, I'm not sure how you can get such uniformed distribution of HG I1 in that area which is connected to Denmark. Thus, the map makes some very questionable claims and should be removed. --E-960 (talk) 21:05, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
The article only talks about geographic distribution, but what effect does this Haplogroup have? What does it "do" in a biological sense? Is it about eye-color, certain predispositions for diseases, what?
I am not well educated in genetics or biology, but as the article is about genetics, I think it is important to describe the subject from a biological perspective too. Also, how does this haplogroup relate to other haplogroups? RhinoMind (talk) 02:02, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
This is on the page. Nowhere on the page does anything connect this haplogroup specifically to "Germanic peoples" although it does demonstrate that many Germanic speaking peoples have elevated frequencies of it. I discussed this with Andrew Lancaster on Talk:Germanic peoples. I want it removed. Objections?--Calthinus (talk) 23:01, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
How is it possible that this article does not mention the oldest recorded case of I1 from Balma Guilanya in Spain, 11,000 cal. BC??? (Villalba-Muoco et al., 2019) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Centrum99 (talk • contribs) 23:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
I repeat my question: Why do you omit this sample? Here you have a direct link to the source: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0960982219301459-mmc2.xlsx Sheet D.S1E. 46.252.225.59 (talk) 18:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
I came here to read the article because there is this interesting link - gene wise - between Gotland, Götaland and Satakunta on the Finnish side. And Haplogroup I-M253 is indeed more common in parts of the Finland's western coast than perhaps anywhere else. It's nice that the article mentions this - but then it goes on talking about the haplogroup as if it was solely Scandinavian. Pretty much always when somebody talks on social media about Finland being Scandinavian a Danish or Norwegian guy shows up and tells that this not the case. Don't ask me why this is so important to some people. Wikipedia itself pronounces that Scandinavia means Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. And nothing wrong with that - though the "Finland's Swedes" would probably disagree.
So, in all fairness, should the word "Scandinavian" be changed to "Nordic" in the article? Or perhaps to "Finnish-Swedish"?
Could Ludwig van Beethoven be added under "Prominent members?" (https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(23)00181-1) Tfxhospod (talk) 20:55, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Can I propose we make the table consistent, so where it says at the moment "7.96%=(9/114)" we just say "7.96%"? Making all of this column a simple % makes it easier to read and sort. AndrewRT(Talk) 11:33, 7 October 2023 (UTC)