The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Cúchullain ^t/c 15:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lewis → Lewis, Outer Hebrides – There is such a huge long list of things and people called Lewis, that something would have to be extremely prominent to qualify as primary topic for this name. This region in Scotland is not. In fact, it is little-known outside Scotland, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of English and Irish people hadn't heard of it. As far as the non-primary nature of this name, there are ten towns in the United States named "Lewis", Note that the general practice of including state names with US place names provides no valid argument, since it doesn't make Boston a secondary topic, does it? Anyways, with so many Lewises in the world, this page should be a disambiguation page. Ego White Tray (talk) 13:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Support No way this is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. --BDD (talk) 17:31, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• What about Isle of Lewis? It's the name they use on their tourist website. Kauffner (talk) 19:44, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose It is the primary topic in Scotland, and although that may carry little weight with some, a prominent argument of the previous move request at Talk:Lewis/Archive_2#Requested_move was that it was the primary topic more generally. There is no doubt that "Isle of Lewis" gets a lot of use, (although Lewis is not an island) but if it is to be moved then it should be to Lewis, Outer Hebrides per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) and Harris, Outer Hebrides. No doubt the nominator will offer to fix the 500 plus links to the article if the move is successful. Ben MacDui 20:51, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that quite a few of those links are not intended for this portion of an island. Ego White Tray (talk) 21:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Even if there are no such unintentional links, I'd fix them all myself. If the move is in accordance with WP:NC, this is a poor reason to oppose. --BDD (talk) 21:13, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is not the reason I am opposing and having looked at the first 250 links I'd say that less than half-a-dozen are not intended for the current article. Ben MacDui 09:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Support I can't imagine most people think of this when they hear the name Lewis. The proposed "Isle of Lewis" makes sense. Hot Stop (Talk) 04:46, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think they do think of? Very few people are going to look for "Lewis" if they are searching for someone with that surname or forename. Ben MacDui 09:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There doesn't need to be a primary topic for such a generic term. Hot Stop (Talk) 13:46, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I expect that most people who type "Lewis" in the search bar are looking for a person named Lewis when they've forgotten the person's first or last name - Meriwhether Lewis is probably a large number of these searches, for example, since he's very famous in the US as the Lewis in Lewis & Clark, but his first name is long and unusual. I expect this region of Scotland to be a small minority. Ego White Tray (talk) 13:21, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom, though Kauffner's alternate name is also fine. Disambiguation should be emplaced at this location. -- 70.24.250.26 (talk) 06:22, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In what way "fine"? It is inconsistent with other usage and not in line with long-standing and carefully considered conventions. Ben MacDui 09:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is the self-identified name, so is a reasonable name. If you have issue with the tourism bureau, lodge a complaint with them. -- 70.24.250.110 (talk) 12:21, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Support move to Isle of Lewis. it is clearly not the primary topic, and Isle of Lewis is the common name in Scotland. And it avoids horribly long names with commas in the middle --Vclaw (talk) 13:31, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Surprisingly. I expected to support the move, but when I looked at the pageview stats, this page got 31,000 in the past 90 days, while the disambiguation page only got 6,000. That tells me that a large majority of people are happy with how they got here. Making "Lewis" the disambiguation page would force extra unneeded navigation for a lot of readers. (Interestingly, Isle of Lewis - the redirect - got over 4,500 views in the same timeframe.) Dohn joe (talk) 20:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • But that statistic is biased. People who are looking for a Lewis will type in Lewis, whether looking for this locale or something else, so of course this will have way more page views. A Google search, on the other hand, starts with Lewis University, Lewis County, Washington, C.S. Lewis and Lewis (TV series) - the Scottish location doesn't even figure into it after ten pages of search results. Ego White Tray (talk) 22:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    But the point is, everyone who enters "Lewis" right now comes to this page. If they come here looking for a different Lewis, they'll be redirected to the disambiguation page. With 31,000 visits to this page, and only 6,000 for the dab page, it's reasonable to conclude that most people who enters "Lewis" are finding what they're looking for. Dohn joe (talk) 22:47, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For 19 percent of readers to go to the DAB is extremely high. For every reader clicking on the hatnote, I bet two or three are using the backup function or closing the tab. Kauffner (talk) 15:34, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have stats on the typical DAB-usage percentage where there is a primary topic? I'd be open to reconsidering my !vote if 19% is truly an outlier. Dohn joe (talk) 20:06, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A movie is primary for Big, while the DAB gets 2741 / 135364 ==> 2 percent of traffic. Back in April, the novel was primary for Doctor Zhivago, while the DAB got 1,089 / 24,408 ===> 4.5 percent of traffic. This is despite the fact that the film is a more likely desired topic than the novel. Kauffner (talk) 13:18, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate those two examples, but I'd much prefer to see a more comprehensive look at it - if anyone were to do a reasonable study of it, it might even turn into good guidance. Dohn joe (talk) 17:28, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per User:Dohn joe et al. Like others, I reckoned "Lewis" would be a good candidate to be a dab page but a perusal of that page shows very few things called "Lewis" with articles at Wikipedia. The nominator mentions the American towns but only one of these has a population of more than 1,000 souls and one of them has zero inhabitants according to the article. The surname is the only article that even comes close to being as notable. —  AjaxSmack  05:11, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Isle of Lewis. There is clear consensus that the island is not the WP:PTOPIC for 'Lewis', therefore a move is called for. There is no clear consensus whether "Isle of Lewis" is the best title – but it's certainly a reasonable one – so another RM can be invoked to determine the final destination.
Due to high number of incoming links, I will not immediately execute the move, but try to sort out the links first. If anyone would like to assist, it would be appreciated. No such user (talk) 07:14, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Lewis → Isle of Lewis
• Lewis (disambiguation) → Lewis

– WP:ASTONISH I cannot imagine the average person who types in "Lewis" would expect to be taken here. Unlike Harris, the name of this place is Isle of Lewis, even though it is not technically an island in its own right. Google searches for "Lewis" (almost no results for the place in Scotland even from England), "Lewis, Scotland" and "Isle of Lewis" show that it is called Isle of Lewis in a generic context. Lewis (TV series) regularly gets more than double page views. The place is clearly the primary topic over the ship named after it so the hatnote to that would remain. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:53, 18 July 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 16:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. No longer the primary use, according to page views[2] and google[3]. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:00, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Rreagan007 (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - absolutely breathtaking. With so many different claimants to PT, such as Meriwether Lewis, I cannot comprehend how this situation lasted as long as it did. Red Slash 14:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Note If this is done then all pages that use Lewis should be changed to "Isle of Lewis" for example Parkend, Lewis should be moved to Parkend, Isle of Lewis as this move is in difference to the island's name being "Isle of Lewis" rather than "Lewis" which appears to be WP:COMMONNAME, unlike Jura for example. Crouch, Swale (talk) 05:37, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: "Lewis" is both the formal and the common name. Leaving aside the issue that Lewis isn't actually an island, very few Scottish islands have "Isle of" in their name, although this may be preprended in picturesque, fanciful or exonymic usage. The only exceptions I can think of are Isle of May and Isle of Ewe. Nothing has changed since the previous proposals to move this article – please read the discussions from 2012, 2008, 2007 and 2006. --Deskford (talk) 08:58, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  "Isle of Lewis" appears to be the formal and common name per the sources, not "Lewis". Isle of Bute and Isle of Arran are also "Isle of..." on OS. In addition with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC the place in Scotland got 13,850 views [[4]] while just those qualified with brackets and commas got 32,603 views [[5]] [[6]] [[7]] and there are more than just those topics. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:48, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose: per the previous archived discussions, which are indeed persuasive.

I can't imagine searches for the tv series will sustain their level after the course of a couple of years but this island will still be there. Would anyone searching for a Lewis gun really just search for a "Lewis"? I guess many or most people looking for Meriwether Lewis may toil to think of his first name; I'd probably search for Lewis and Clark but otherwise, if I typed in just Lewis, it would be as a starting point with the expectation of obtaining the dab page to narrow the search, not expecting to immediately be taken to the article as a primary topic. OS may prefix its name on the map with "Isle of" but, per Deskford, that's not how one would commonly refer to it; to hear it so-referred in most contexts would sound a bit odd (I'm taking the ferry to the Isle of Lewis?). (Even the Isle of May, which is a case where the prefix is the norm, often just gets "The May" locally, though I've never heard plain "May".) And again, read the copious previous discussions on the matter. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:05, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OS does not prefix Jura, Islay, Coll, Colonsay or Harris, but it does with Lewis, which probably indicates its common name, while just "Lewis" is used locally. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:11, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Showing the comparatively arbitrary nature of the OS designations. I would have said all of these islands could also have "Isle of" stuck in front of their name (although that likewise doesn't make that version their correct name and without it, not), except Harris but if you stick the full term in Google, even it gets significant hits. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:19, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It was pointed out that May and Ewe are part of their names, what is interesting to note is that those with a suffix or prefix generally share their name with another common word, the month and the sheep and with Lewis it is the name. Those that don't, often are mononymous, like Jura, this probably reflects common usage and isn't as arbitrary as might first appear. Might it be worth seeking a wider forum. Crouch, Swale (talk) 06:37, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what is intended by ""It was pointed out that May and Ewe are part of their names".

So used for DAB by the OS in such cases, thus denoting that it is an isle rather than that the prefix is somehow an essential part of its name. Possibly, but it would be useful to see if the OS state this convention, otherwise it is conjecture/OR. Even if there were a case for DAB here, it would not fit with the WP conventions on geographic names, as pointed out in earlier discussions. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:15, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was pointing out that apparently it is agreed that those use the prefix.

It is not being used as disambiguation by the OS, it is being used as part of the name, just like Stratford St Mary, Newcastle upon Tyne and Great Glemham. The links clearly show that it isn't being used for disambiguation, otherwise it would be in brackets. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:31, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I find it hard to see how you draw these elements together to come up with this conclusion, if anything they indicate other. It is pure speculation. If you can find a source that synthesises all these elements to specifically state this, fair enough. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:09, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I don't think we can take Ordnance Survey as a consistent or reliable authority on place names. In any case, the two OS maps I have close to hand here, Landranger 1:50000 Sheet 8: Stornoway & North Lewis (2005 edition) and Sheet 13: West Lewis and North Harris (2008 edition), both use simply "Lewis" in their titles. --Deskford (talk) 11:24, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  Vision of Britain appears to have an old map with it showing "Isle of Lewis". Britannica has an article on Lewis and Harris and specifies an alternative title is "Isle of Lewis". If we can't agree on using "Isle of Lewis" then it should be moved to Lewis, Scotland, like Harris. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:31, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  So we're agreed on dropping the angle that "Lewis" alone is not the correct name and now debating whether a dab is required? Per above and previous discussions, there is no case for this. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:09, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  No, my comments were if others still think "Lewis" is the correct name for the article, then my 2nd choice would be adding ", Scotland" to the title. Given the comments about the other maps and sources, that may well be the case, however even still WP:NATURALDIS may make "Isle of" still an option. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:17, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  Lewis, Scotland would be the most acceptable form of disambiguation, if it is determined that this is no longer the primary topic for "Lewis". I remain to be convinced, however, that a surge in searches for a TV series will constitute more than a temporary blip. --Deskford (talk) 11:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree the TV series is probably temporary popularity but as I pointed out earlier there are lots of other things and the name is probably likely to be expected to be found with "Lewis". If "Isle of Lewis" is rejected then I'd prefer Lewis, Scotland per the guideline. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:02, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  The guideline would not indicate that solution but Lewis, Outer Hebrides, should dab be appropriate, but that it is the primary topic is what counts most. I find the arguments presented in the 2012 discussion presented by those who were surprised to end up in opposition to be particularly compelling and as pertinent as they were then. Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:25, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. At first glance it looks an obvious move, but on closer inspection, there really is nothing else called Lewis which, even taken together, challenge the island (or half-island actually) to be primary topic. I of course think that the whole concept of primary topic is a bit sus, and would instead have every article at an unambiguous name. But under current policy, no move. Andrewa (talk) 13:17, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nomination and other "Support" votes. An unsuccessful Talk:Java#Requested move 12 June 2018 proposed that Java, at 145 million, the world's most populous island, be moved to Java (island). Lewis has a population of 18,500 and the Lewis (disambiguation) page lists 39 entries plus numerous additional ones under "See also". The larger, but less populous, Harris has a population of 1,916 and uses the main title header Harris, Scotland. Accordingly, I would also Support the alternatively-proposed analogous form Lewis, Scotland.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the archived discussions and the discussion above; what has suddenly made this no longer the primary topic, particularly per the end of the 2012 discussion? I'm at a loss as to why the example of a move to dab a clear primary topic that has numerous subordinate topics being defeated is an argument to support a comparable move proposal here. As mentioned in the current and archived discussions above, and linked, were dab appropriate here the guideline states that "Ambiguous place names within the United Kingdom should generally use the county as the disambiguator" so Lewis, Scotland would be wrong as is the existing title Harris, Scotland, so the latter is no example to follow. Harris is not only not larger than Lewis but a fraction of its size. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:16, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In mentioning the comparative areas of Lewis and Harris, I mistakenly conflated the total territory of Lewis and Harris (841 sq mi) with the territory of Harris alone. In fact, 683 sq mi of that 841 sq mi does belong to Lewis. Additionally, if consensus should coalesce around using Lewis, Outer Hebrides and (although it is not part of this RM) Harris, Outer Hebrides, I would move my support to those forms.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:43, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Support move. It's blatantly clear that the page cannot remain at its current title, as this is a textbook "no primary topic" situation. ONR (talk) 07:10, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, a quick search of Google Books shows that "Lewis" is far more likely to refer to a person named or surnamed Lewis. There is a clear absence of primary topic where there is such a likelihood that this is far from the first thing that will come to mind when hearing this name. bd2412 T 02:45, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Obvious support. This utterly fails WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONAME and WP:RECOGNIZABLE and WP:PRECISE and WP:COMMONSENSE and principle of least astonishment all at once.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:56, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Obvious fail of WP:ASTONISH._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 10:14, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nom, fails astonish, I fail to see why this island is the primary topic. Lazz_R 22:07, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Could the last four editors who have expressed support clarify if they are supporting per nom, i.e. Isle of Lewis, or supporting only that DAB is required? Should the latter be accepted*, the debate above and in the section below indicates that there is no clear consensus as yet as to which of the options for DABed titles should be adopted. (*I'll note that I'm as yet unconvinced and hope that those supporting have read the previous debates, particularly the end of the 2012 one.) Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:07, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  I'll address the "oppose" arguments in 2012. "It is the primary topic in Scotland" WP is global, not just for Scotland, it certainly isn't even primary in the other UK countries. The fact it has lots of links is weak evidence of the long-term significance criteria. The view argument with the DAB was shown to show the opposite. They show that many readers who search for "Lewis" are being taken onto the wrong article because many will have arrived through Google or a link. While those looking for the island often type "Isle of Lewis". Compare views [[8]] for other DAB pages compared to Lewis, often they only get 1 or 2%, in the case of Colchester the article gets over 100x the views of the DAB while it is only over 15x for Lewis! AjaxSmack's argument is more convincing but still the views and WP:ASTONISH show no primary topic. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:31, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom. Unreal7 (talk) 17:38, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support as proposed. Celia Homeford's evidence shows that this is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the name "Lewis", and should be moved. I see no problem with the name "Isle of Lewis".--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:47, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

If we must disambiguate (and I think that for best reader experience we should, but on current policy we should not) then Isle of Lewis is IMO the most recognizable option... quirky, but common and very Scottish. Andrewa (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It would thus be appropriate to address your proposal on the policy first and if it is changed, only then would this discussion have validity. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:43, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The first option is to call it "Isle of Lewis" (saying something like "the Isle of Lewis, commonly refereed to as Lewis..." and move other topics like Parkend, Lewis to Parkend, Isle of Lewis. That is to say we are saying "Isle of Lewis" is its proper name and "Lewis" is an alternative name, I think there is clear consensus against this, and the evidence has contradicted my evidence of it being "Isle of Lewis".

The 2nd option is to use "Isle of Lewis" as natural disambiguation meaning that it still says the "Lewis" is its proper name. topics that are disambiguated by it will still just use "Lewis" not "Isle of Lewis" thus Parkend, Lewis would remain where it is.

The 3rd option is to use "Lewis, Scotland" or "Lewis, Outer Hebrides", the latter would be consistent with Jura, Scotland and Harris, Scotland. WP:UKPLACE says "The number of larger settlements or islands that are likely to be well-known outside of the region..." use ", Scotland".

To reply to Andrewa's comment I think this should be moved per policy as well. It clearly fails the first criteria of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as the TV series gets more views and I think the name has long term significance. I'd say that if you say "Lewis" to someone in England, more than 96% of people will think you mean the given name and the other 4% will think of the surname and that will be even more so in other countries outside the UK. I don't think we should put every DAB page at the base name, but just have primary topics when its clear that a meaning is primary in a general audience. I'd defer to you're arguments about New York and Nancy. If this article is not moved it will continue to confuse readers and editors and this proposal will probably come up again in a few years. What would be interesting would be is to like through a redirect similar to what was done with Lincoln and in a year see how many people searching for "Lewis" want the different articles. Crouch, Swale (talk) 07:39, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.