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It doesn't need the "(disambiguation)" bit, it was fine as just "MTV Generation". Read WP:DABNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. -- Ϫ 21:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
I would like to have a constructive discussion about the future of this article. My concern with this article is that we seem to be unable to find a relatively coherent definition for the term. Since there is not even the semblance of a real definition the article will inevitably be rambling and unencyclopedic. As I understand the rules of wikipedia at WP:SYN, we are not supposed to cobble a definition together from multiple sources. So unless, we can find some reliable sources which include unambiguous statements of what the MTV Generation is, we should either scrap the article, merge it, or redirect. To me, this is a classic case of WP:NEO. It is a term that is "not well understood, [is] not clearly definable, and will have different meanings to different people." "The use of neologisms should be avoided in Wikipedia."
If however, anybody can find a couple of serious sources with clear definitions that somewhat approximate each other, I am by no means opposed to building an article around that. However, I think it has to go beyond a simple statement like "people who watched MTV when they were young." Peregrine981 (talk) 08:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
That's the best you can come up with??? Why, in this case, should we go against policy, "a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow. Changes made to it should reflect consensus." Since I am objecting, an exception in this case obviously does not reflect consensus. At least make an argument as to why this case is special rather than just referring me to another page. Peregrine981 (talk) 09:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I am trying to find some reliable sources for this article, or have it deleted. As it stands it has no reliable sources. I have made a good faith effort to find reliable sources but cannot find any secondary sources that talk about this term, rather than mentioning it in passing. Throughout the last four years, several discussions have taken place and they have decided that the article should remain, but that it should be "cleaned up" and OR should be removed. However, this has yet to take place, and I am beginning to have serious doubts that it will ever occur, as I fear that this term is a neologism (WP:NEO), and not worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia at this time.
I don't believe that it is responsible to leave the article in its current state, and think that those advocating for this article's inclusion should make a good faith effort to produce at least minimal sources to justify this article's inclusion. WP:BURDEN seems relevant. I know that MTV Generation is a term that is used a lot, but there are absolutely no reliable sources that address what it is that I have been able to locate. This is the main problem as I see it. I have no problem in keeping this article, its advocates simply have to produce some real proof that it is an encyclopedic topic. I have been making good faith attempts to establish the validity of the article for well over a month now, but I feel that my objections are not being taken seriously. Peregrine981 (talk) 21:39, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Talks about people born from 1966 to 1971. Not 1975 to 1986 as reported in our lead.
This is some guy's blog.
Talks about a partnership between MTV and the Kaiser Family Research Foundation, specifically discussing PSAs regarding sexual health. Doesn't discuss any kind of broader definition of the generation, beyond the fact that they watch MTV.
Here is the only serious discussion of the MTV Generation: "It's the only television entity of any kind that ever had a generation named after it," says Robert Thompson, professor of media and popular culture and the founding director of the Center for the Study of Popular Television at Syracuse (New York) University. "We don't even have the CNN generation, but we have the MTV generation.
"This came out as the center of the universe for the demographic of young people and it managed to bring together people who would have been very disparate in what radio stations they listened to," Thompson says. "But they all came together in this one television hangout."
But it doesn't discuss it any further. No real definition or discussion. The article goes on to discuss MTV as a business and the music industry in general.
"Today, a majority of students in the classrooms of colleges and universities across the country were born after 1975. These young people, born between 1975 and 1981, are categorized as generation Xers and those born after 1981 as generation Yers or MTV generation."
Treats Y and MTV as the same thing.
does not support the idea that MTV gen is "technology savvy, independent and resourceful". In fact does not discuss the MTV Generation at all, except in the title.
Discussing "teenagers" of 1994, so let us say 1974-1981. Also does not support statement that MTV Gen is "technology savvy, independent and resourceful".
These sources that you have provided support my contention that there is no unified idea of what the MTV Generation is, other than people who watch MTV. I thank you very much for your constructive contribution though. I look forward to seeing further sources. I would further like to highlight that I have been attempting to engage in constructive debate here for a long time, without touching the article, but that has proven completely fruitless. I would really appreciate if you would not accuse me of vandalism, as I have taken pains to do things "by the book." Peregrine981 (talk) 21:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
As it stands, the article has been savagely butchered and is now basically a meaningless stub. Obviously it had serious problems before this, but some thoughtful reversion would definitely improve on the current situation. If I had no idea of the term MTV Generation, the current stub would not help in the slightest.
There is no explanation of even the more common meanings of the term, aside from 'youth of the late 20th century'. For one thing, even this term is unforgivably Western-centric and too broad. 'Western and westernised youth of the 1980s and 1990s' is much more reasonable.
Generations X and Y: Even if some people use these terms synonymously with 'MTV generation', it should be noted that Generation X (born in the 60s and 70s) at least is not synonymous, and the first MTVG is a subset of Generation Y. I say overlapping, as Gen Z then come in who are also MTVG as in they grew up with MTV. Marketers and social scientists are very clear of these differences.
History: Even if the term was used in a 1992 Simpsons episode, that is little to do with the history of the term, which began much earlier (I would say in the 80s) in broadcast media circles and the music press. Certainly, it is no neologism, even if the exact definition is disputed.
The main problem is that the concept 'MTV generation' is a flawed one, just as the term'Baby Boomer' Generation is, as it actually refers to several generations of human beings. Not only that, but MTV itself has changed notably during that time.
A normal person could easily be a regular viewer of MTV for a period of 10 - 20 yrs of their childhood/adulthood (anyone at any age can be an occasional viewer). If you accept this idea, then evidently several sets of viewers decades apart in age have been 'through' MTV and out the other side.
The point I'm making is not that the MTV Gen doesn't exist, but that watching MTV is a phase for many people. This leads us to discuss whether there are any distinguishing characteristics of those who have 'graduated'.
Reading all the way down this talk page, while a lot of work went into the page before it was chopped right back to a stub, most of the discussion is about the distinguishing marks between Gen X and Gen Y. A common error I notice is people mistaking the date of the availability of something (e.g. MTV, home computers) for the date of general adoption of it (5-10 years later than initial date). I would like to see some of the previous work done on the page reinstated, but not the irrelevant lists of 'iconic' celebrities, movies etc.
I would posit that there is some truth to the idea that music videos (which existed before MTV) changed narrative, with jump-cuts, 'blips', static noise, and other obtrusive narrative techniques that required a new comprehension. The ability to easily decode media (e.g. feature films) that employ these late 20th century techniques, as well as postmodern references and cultural shorthand and conversely to find older techniques and story-telling systems (e.g. voice-overs, pure text books) boring and tedious is one mark of the MTV Generation.
Other popularly supposed MTVG tendencies are a heightened liking for pop culture, familiarity with the control conventions of complex electronic gadgets and most notoriously, a short attention span.
I can't back up these assumed characteristics with citations and references at present, because most of the early definitions of the term MTVG arose in the late 80s, and is therefore mainly documented in hard copy which I can't link to, and don't even have available. The source issue is unlikely to be solved without the intervention of sociology professionals, or the dreaded original research. So. The WKP MTVG article represents a well-known term with no exact definition, and no reliable sources. I would argue that this situation occurs from time to time in human culture, and we should try to craft a decent article nevertheless. I think Peregrine981 could helpfully show a little flexibility here. Have a look at even more material phenomena with no exact definition and pointless sources here and here. These articles will not be deleted.
Centrepull (talk) 21:43, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I'd be very happy so see a proper expansion of this and related articles. But it's hard to write about ill-defined cultural phenomena, characterising a generation of people --or even a generation of youth--by one particular aspect. Many of the uses of the term have been in the sort of popular (or for that matter academic) writing intended to use it as a hook to attract attention, and I would not regard any one use of it , or any one definition of it, as definitive.
As my own view about the specifics: it's clear there were differences in music videos over time, and there was a fairly rapid adoption of new editing & production techniques, as part of the continuous development of the medium. Even so, the use of very rapid jump cuts was countered by the ability to easily see individual frames. The problem comes when this is extended to cover the culture in general. (Having survived a number of them, I find it hard to say that one generation was more devoted to popular music or popular culture than another, different though the music will be. Nor do I think that the increasing complexity of gadgetry was relevant. All generations have said the same. And similarly about short attention span--Plato complained that the invention of writing was harmful to the memory. I find it interesting that the same period saw the rise of very long popular novel series). But all this is personal; a proper article would discuss the various theories, & should be informed not just by a knowledge of sociology, but technology and the arts. There is a large primary and secondary literature, and the way to deal with its unavailability is to visit a good specialized library--though most libraries have unfortunately not kept very much in the way of print from the period. There is one common characteristic of all human culture: it tends to be more complicated than it looks. DGG ( talk ) 23:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I regard shorts as clearly defined, though there are types of them. If they cover the knee, they are not shorts. It's a defining single characteristic/dimension. Luxury vehicles is fundamentally different, because aside from the common factor of being relatively expensive and sold in advertisements intended to be up-market, the actual fundamental nature of the vehicles can be very different. MTV might be somewhere in between.
Here is one excellent source: http://en.allexperts.com/e/m/mt/mtv_generation.htm
Also a book, not an online source, gives this XY cusp a different name: The Bridger Generation, By Thom S. Rainer. A proposal to call the generation "MTV Generation" appears at first on page 108.
MTV is NOT Generation Y or Generation X, but has aspects of both of them. There is a section of the populace that do not identify or "fit in with" Generation X or Generation Y. I am one of those people. I'd like to see this article back to what it was, without the mention that this is "Also Generation Y." It's NOT. If anything, when you start digging, MTV Generation is closer to Generation X.
More possible sources: http://engaginggenerations.extension.illinois.edu/4generations.html http://coachingandmentoring.com/Articles/x's.html http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/MTV_Generation_-_The_Doomiedi_Generation/id/5266151 http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/MTV_Generation_-_Global_factors_defining_the_MTV_Generation/id/5266149 http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/MTV_Generation_-_An_Ambitious_Generation_of_Drifting_Dreamers/id/5266152
Even having MTV Generation listed as "Also known as XY Cusp" or the Bridger Generation as listed by the book would be acceptable, but it does not have both feet in 1 generation, it has a foot in both.
As for nailing down years... A quick look at other sources for Generation X and Generation Y shows me that even though article after article has been written about both, none of them seem to agree on the exact years they started and ended. That's typical and shouldn't be a reason to entirely omit an article about this generation. By that logic, none of them should be a page.
71.10.105.120 (talk) 20:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
I would like to help expand this article, although the sources that do describe the MTV Generation are not in depth, therefore we would be borderlined contributing Original Research in the article, which is prohibited according to Wikipedia guidelines. The talk page has been quiet for a while, any suggestions? Educatedlady (talk) 03:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure where we can go to to document it so that it's not "Original Research", but perhaps try some works by Strauss and Howe, who I believe started this idea of "cusps" and might have even coined the term "MTV Generation" to refer to the cusp between Gen X (Thirteeners) and Gen Y (Millennials). (In a similar vein, the terms "Generation Jones" has been used to describe the cusp between Gen X and the Baby Boom; "Beat Generation" for between the Boom and the Silent Generation; "Greatest Generation" for that between the Silent and the GI Generation; and "Interbellum Generation" for that between the GI and the Lost Generation). I hope that helps a little. Good luck. Shanoman (talk) 22:43, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
01. LOST GENERATION: born ca. 1885-1905
02. Interbellum Cusp: born ca. 1900-1910 (especially 1902-1907) 03. GI GENERATION: born ca. 1905-1925 04. Greatest Cusp: born ca. 1920-1930 (esp. 1922-1927) 05. SILENT GENERATION: born ca. 1925-1945 06. Beat Cusp: born ca. 1940-1950 (esp. 1942-1947) 07. BOOM GENERATION: born ca. 1945-1965 08. Jones Cusp: born ca. 1960-1970 (esp. 1962-1967) 09. GENERATION X (THIRTEENER): born ca. 1965-1985 10. MTV Cusp: born ca. 1980-1990 (esp. 1982-1987) 11. GENERATION Y (MILLENNIAL): born ca. 1985-2005 12. iPod Cusp: born ca. 2000-2010 (esp. 2002-2007) 13. GENERATION Z (HOMELAND): born ca. 2005-2025? |
An alternate plan could be:
01. LOST: 1880-1900
02. Interbellum: 1895-1910 03. GI; 1900-1920 04. Greatest: 1915-1930 05. SILENT: 1920-1940 06. Beat: 1935-1950 07. BOOM: 1940-1960 08. Jones: 1955-1970 09. GEN X: 1960-1980 10. MTV: 1975-1990 11. GEN Y: 1980-2000 12. iPod: 1995-2010 13. GEN Z: 2000-(2020? |
)
As the lists suggest, each "cusp" overlaps entirely with regular "main" generations---and largely just within 1 of the 2 which it "cusps"---making the "cusps" mostly subsets of the larger main generations. Thus, the Interbellum are mostly the early phase of the GI Generation; the Greatest = early phase/1st half of the Silent Generation; Beat = late Silent/early Boom (Beatniks); Jones = first phase of Generation X; MTV = first phase of Millennial Generation; iPod = first phase of Generation Z (Homeland Generation). Shanoman (talk) 23:27, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
I removed this recently added text from the lead "The term has also been used to refer to the cusp generation between Generation X and the Millenial generation, also known as the XY Cusp and the Boomerang Generation." It seems undue to stick this into the lead. The rest of the sources do not define MTV generation this way. I was going to add it to the body of article instead but it appears to be sourced to a blog from non-notable researchers. [1]--DynaGirl (talk) 01:36, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
The Met Life ref. used in support of "is" is a dead link in the lede paragraph.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:6000:6111:8e00:1543:2ca:fa2f:e4ad (talk)