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Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Archive2
this is Macedonian Language ! [1]
But there is no such language as Macedonian Slavs. -- Zoe
"Makedonija" is foreign word for the skopians slav language ! This is greek name ! See "makedonia" ! Vergina 06:43, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be moved to either "Macedonia" or "Republic of Macedonia", countries are entitled to call themselves whatever they want, FYROM is just beuro-speak dml
for dml ! Gratulation for the People clon ! Macedon 12.04.2003
I see Wikipedia's purpose mainly to learn something from it. Since I come from a relatively small nation I can't tolerate any kind of nationalisms, whether it is Macedonian, Greek, Slovene, German, American or any kind. Serbs used to say: "Serbia all the way to Tokyo" and we know what happened in the 1990s in former Yugoslavia. Another fact is that I come from this sad historical state form. I know some history and I've never heard about a nation called Macedonian Slavs or as Zoe says about a language with the same name. So I peacefully appeal to those who make contributions to similar sensitive articles to keep in mind facts and truth. It is very easy to sully historical events. It would be very interesting also to know who devided a region called Macedonia to three main parts, which nowadays reside in 3 different states. My nation and many ethnical regions also resides in 4 different states and I am shure you have to endeavour yourselves to find any kind of modern Slovene nationalism in the World's scene. I can shout it loud: "Slovenia to North Pole", but this won't help me much. Best regards.
STOP the Skopje PROPAGANDA!! 62.47.28.215 25.04.2003
What objections do people have to the following changes:
The pharse "language's status discussed" is taken from the OEM web site. It's entirely out of context here and has no reason to appear. I've endeavoured to make a sensible link on the page, but the fact is, that web site really doesn't talk about languages at all, but about peoples. -- Toby 11:13 19 May 2003 (UTC)
<Deleted comment> Now I see what you did! My mistake!2toise 18:01, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Does anyone want to put this page into the regular country format, with a map etc? - 2toise
The convention is to start a Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Temp and then merge later. --Jiang 21:53, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
FYROM,the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia,as "Republic of Macedonia" is fabrik for folgery Greek history,Greek culture,Greek geography and Greek symbols Macedonians!See Greek Macedonian symbol "Vergina Sun",Philip II king of Macedonia and Alexander the Great king of Macedonia !!! Vergina 21:14, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)
President of Macedonia! This "Macedonia" and "Vergina Sun" ? http://www.macedonianpride.cjb.net/ Vergina 06:27, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Mr.--Jiang is the state Name Taiwan or Republic of Taiwan ?? Vergina 09:04, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Mr Jiang! The name "Republic of Macedonia" is not identical to Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.--------Vergina 08:30, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Vergina.. what exactly is the point you are making? - fonzy
Well, the crux of the issue is that it is not universally recognized that the people who refer to themselves as "Macedonians" are, in fact, Macedonians. The Greeks claim the term as legitimately applying only to Northern Greeks (i.e. from the historical region of Macedon), but it has since around the late 18th century been expanded to include parts of Bulgaria and the Former Yugoslavia, for whatever reason (there's argument over this issue, obviously). So the current situation is that, for the past 200 years or so, there has been a region known as "Macedonia" that is about 50% in Greece, 25% in Bulgaria, and 25% in the country with capital in Skopje, that calls itself the "Republic of Macedonia". The 50% in Greece is the portion that corresponds roughly to the historical Macedon, so the Greeks claim that neither the Bulgarians nor the former-Yugoslavians have the right to call their regions Macedonia. So far the UN and all major international bodies and most countries have deferred to the Greek position and refused to recognize the self-proclaimed "Republic of Macedonia" by that name, instead referring to it semi-neutrally as the "Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia," as it is an undisputed fact that the region used to be part of a Yugoslavian Republic that was, during the period Yugoslavia still existed, named "Macedonia". As for how to resolve the conflict, I'm not entirely sure. --Delirium 08:46, Oct 15, 2003 (UTC)
Another note (because I feel like saying it): FYROM is the term always used in the Eurovision Song Contest (so far). - fonzy
How about using the convention (Former Yugolslav) [[Republic of Macedonia]] (i.e., putting the F.Y. in parenthesis instead of part of the link or leaving it out)? But even with this "semi-neutral" qualification, it is not at all clear why it is added to someone who has not read about this issue before. --Jiang 08:52, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
If we claim to be a reference work, we must list countries under their official names. Regardless of PsOV, the name of the country is FYROM. 2toise 15:12, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
There is a name agreed by everyone, and should be used. That name is FORMER Yougoslav Republic of Macedonia. There is no Republic of Macedonia other than in the imagination of people. Is this Encyclopedia going to be about facts or fiction? If you have issues with that name take it up with the United Nations. Thanks.
No. Like other news agencies it 'tops' (ie starts articles) with "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and having contextualised its reference, uses "Macedonia" and "FYROM". Ditto with other news agencies, all major international organisations, major broadcasting organisations, in Europe, Asia, Australasia and the Americas. The 'Republic of Macedonia' is simply not used, except by Macedonia itself and a handful of supportive organisations and states. FYROM is the correct term to use. Just because a state proclaims a name for itself does not mean that name automatically has any validity. The Irish constitution calls the Irish state Éire and until 1998 insisted that Éire consisted of the entire island of Ireland, but no-one accepted it (including most Irish people). Italy calls itself the Italian Republic yet again that name is rarely used. Just because a state claims something does not make it a reality. Éire has long since been dropped and replaced by the Republic of Ireland even though technically that isn't a name at all, but as the Republic of Ireland Act makes clear a description. The reality is a lot less simple than is being suggested. Choosing to use the 'Republic of Macedonia' when the name is in dispute and unrecognised in law internationally is expressing a viewpoint on the debate, thus POV. Using FYROM, as every other organisation does, as a temporary name pending agreement on an accepted name, is more NPOV. In any case does Macedonia speak english? Is its constitution in english? If not, even the claim that its name is 'Republic of Macedonia' is dodgy on linguistic grounds too, as that term in that english form would not exist in the constitution as signed into law by the President. :-) FearÉIREANN 22:07, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
"Macedonia" is the Pseudonym name for FYROM !! ---Vergina 22:41, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
That article proves my point, Jiang. It pointedly does not use the formal name, simply Macedonia. It is, like most newspaper articles, a truncated version of the original AP wire report, and having written wire reports, I know that most use the definitionary name in the opening sentence, the colloquial name in the rest of the text. I can guarantee that AP, Reuters and the other big agencies don't use Republic of Macedonia but FYROM as the definitionary name, just as they use Republic of Ireland, then Ireland, United Kingdom, then UK or Britain, United States, then US. And no, BTW we are not supposed to 'use english'; we are supposed to use the version of the name used in english. Éire (without the fada over the 'E') is used in english, notably by the English tabloids and right wing press for reasons that are rather too complicated and irrelevant to explain here. They also use taoiseach in preference to prime minister, punt more often than Irish pound, etc. Wikipedia, like much of the media, does not use english but native words generally used in english (eg, 'kaiser' not 'German Emperor', 'Tsar' more often than 'Russian Emperor', etc.) FearÉIREANN 22:51, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
So why is this state sill wrongly described as "Republic of Macedonia"? "Republic of Macedonia" was a province of Yugoslavia, not an independent state. It was called that for about 45 years within the Yugoslavian state. That's why it is now called "FORMER Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Because it is not the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia any more. That's the name it has now. I don't understand why you insist on calling it something else. You fail to show a valid reason for not calling it with its proper _internationally_ accepted name. Thus unless somebody has a valid objection other than "that's how ignorant people call it", I will revert the article so that it abides to UN legislation and does not offend anyone. Cheers. 193.195.0.102
International recognition has no bearing on the official name of a state. A state is made a state by its internal characteristics, not by whether other states choose to establish diplomatic relations with it. Again, how can something "provisional" be official? You see only the words within the quotes and fail to notice everything around them. "former Yugoslav" (with former uncapitalized) serves a disambiguating purpose. It's a temporay reference, not an official one. How else would the first word of the title not be capitalized? --Jiang
The the best of my knowledge, the name was agreed upon because (and only becuase) of intensive lobbying by Greece (you said it yourself when you brought up an embargo). The agreement does not ask the Republic of Macedonia to amend its constitution and change its name into FYROM. The name is used by governments around the world to avoid offending Greece. This encyclopedia is not a government. We don't need to adhere to these guidlines. I don't see how you can just ignore the constitutional and legal name here. We do care about what is the case internally.
Is the UN some higher moral authority? Why should we adhere to whatever terms the UN uses? Yes, the news media does override the UN, since the common usage is determined largely by the news media. Actually, the news just calls it "Macedonia" and leaves out all the rest. What do you want - Republic of Macedonia or Macedonia? --Jiang
The international name of the state is not ignored. It is stated clearly in the article what it is and why the consitutional and international names differ.
I have a feeling that you're the one who is trolling. The system won't allow you to sign in as Jiang, but you can sign in as Jiang1, Jiang5, Jiang's Mother, etc. All these names are different from the one and only User:Jiang (me!). Does a Republic of Macedonia exist in Greece? It is only a province that exists. If a Republic existed, we would move this to Macedonia (country).
The UN the one and only organization? LOL Let's see...
The constitutional name of that state means nothing internationally unless this state is recognised by the UN.
We are not merely concerned with international protocol. We are concerned with what happens domestically too. When people visit Skopje they say they visited Macedonia (and not all the longish offical rubbish).
Not all states in the world are UN members. So the Holy See and Republic of China don't exist, right? The consitutional name of a country matters if a state exists. It has nothing to do w/ UN membership.
It is like you are saying that you can declare a constitution for yourself at any day and have a country name you chose to and also name that country United States of America.
No, that consitution is meaningless if I don't have a state to go w/ it. There is only one Republic of Macedonia, not two. There are also two Congos, two Koreas, two Chinas...Comments?
The UN IS the naming authority.
Since when? How has it been given this authority? The UN is an international forum, not a world government. It was never designed as a world government and doesn't function as such.
The UN is NOT an organisation that can be bullied by a small country like Greece. The UN has not even allowed countries like the US, Russia and China to bully it so stop being ridiculus suggesting that the Greek pressure led to that decision and treaty, ESPECIALLY since FYROM also agreed to it.
Hmm...read China and the United Nations and tell me that countries arent using the UN for their own political gain. Just because the FYROM agreed to it doesnt mean it thought it was fair or had another choice. The Greeks had nothing to do with this? Why else would they bother to butcher their own name? You tell me.
Hm, I feel like I'm feeding a troll. Otherwise, Im dealing with some very sorry soul. --Jiang 10:26, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:North Macedonia/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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Augen Macednonia( or like the greeks said "Greek Macedonia") is only one part of The whole Macedonia and we will get them back and all Macedonians will live in one country.....That is everything i want in this life!
Alexander the Great was risen in an environment that were saying "Who is not Greek, is a barbarian" (coming from the vast difference of the Creek civilization from it's neighbors). Despite that, when he took over the world, he said "However learns and respects the Greek language and culture, and fights for Greece, is a Greek". That's a proof that he was the greatest visionary of all times. So however wants to call himself Greek (and Macedonian = Greek) can start by learning the Greek culture and language, the same way as all the rest of the Macedonians, since the ancient times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.148.158.229 (talk) 09:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
FYROM is not recognised by the UN with the name "Republic of Macedonia". There is a standing argument related to the name of the country, and in my opinion this article should bear the UN accepted name. The country was admitted in the UN in 8 April 1993 (A/RES/47/225), the admission document can be seen at http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/47/a47r225.htm and explicitly states that the United Nation ... Decides to admit the State whose application is contained in document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations, this State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State. == The truth about Macedonia == Why you people want to change the history? History has already been written thousand years ago. Why don't we respect that? Why you people want to harm Greece? Greece was always a friend to other nations. Why you people want to cut the motherland of civilization into pieces? (Skopjians want to take the geographically Greek part of Macedonia, Albanians want to take Hepirus, Turks want to take Thrace). They all admit that these areas are theirs from thousand of years ago. Why don't we shout the real truth? Skopjians are Slavs. Slavs came to Europe around 1000 AD. How can they be Macedonians? Macedonians were a Greek tribe in the northern part of ancient Greece which was included FYROM, the south part of Bulgaria and the today's Greek part of Macedonia. Macedonia, my friends is a Greek word, not a Slavian word. Fillip B', the father of Alexander the Great, had one dream: To unite all the Greek cities into one nation. His dream was meant to be fullfilled by his son. Fillip is a Greek name, which means "the one that loves horses". Alexander is a Greek name. Macedonians were Greeks, spoke Greek, loved Greek gods, built their cities and temples in the Greek way. Otherwise, why wasn't Fillip called by a Slavian name or Alexander? Ok, guys, you want to change the history. So, name Voukefalas, the horse of Alexander, as Zastava! I am very sad as a human and as a Greek, that I am forced to support and defend facts of thousands of years. I am sad that I have to defend for the obvious, because some powerful men on this planet decided one nice morning to destroy every nation's history and culture for the profit and just because they didn't have history and culture!!! And all in the name of The New Order on Earth! --- As far as Albanians, they came in Europe after Slavs from Caspian Sea, near the Urals. There, there was a territory called Albania. And they moved from there searching a better life and they settled down in the place that was habited by a Greek tribe, Illyria. How can they name themselves, Illyrians??? And as far as the Turks??? Ok, we all know that they were a nomad tribe from Mongolia! Why don't they let us in peace? Why don't they want to live in peace with their neighbours? Isn't it enough for them that they are all guests in their neighbours's house? What do they want more? To push us out of our homes too??? Well, ladies and gentlemen of the New Order, I have to tell you a secret: You forgot something! The Greek soul! It is unbeatable! Do you know what the results of your alchimies will be?? Just to make Greece bigger and stronger...You will see that as soon as the war that you will have started, will have come to an end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.203.57.216 (talk) 20:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 20:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 21:59, 3 May 2016 (UTC)