This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Theology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Theology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TheologyWikipedia:WikiProject TheologyTemplate:WikiProject TheologyTheology articles
This article is part of WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to the Eastern Orthodox Church. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. You may also want to look at the current collaboration of the month or the project's notice board.Eastern OrthodoxyWikipedia:WikiProject Eastern OrthodoxyTemplate:WikiProject Eastern OrthodoxyEastern Orthodoxy articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Wikipedia. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Wikipedia.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy articles
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Translation Studies, a collaborative effort to expand, improve and standardise the content and structure of articles related to translators.
If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.Translation studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Translation studiesTemplate:WikiProject Translation studiesTranslation studies articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, a group of contributors interested in Wikipedia's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our project page. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our talk page.Classical Greece and RomeWikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeTemplate:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeClassical Greece and Rome articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Bible on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibleWikipedia:WikiProject BibleTemplate:WikiProject BibleBible articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Egypt, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Egypt on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EgyptWikipedia:WikiProject EgyptTemplate:WikiProject EgyptEgypt articles
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 5 sections are present.
The 1903 Catholic Encyclopedia does not report this[edit]
The inlne Citation to the Catholic Encyclopaedia (1913) had a text comment after it. I have commented out:
"— The 1903 Catholic Encyclopedia does not report this"
I did this because the citation is cited inline a multiple locations and it is not clear to which of the text in those locations this comment is supposed to refer.
Eusebius reported that Origen, following Matthew 19:12 literally, castrated himself.[1][2] Scholars within the past century have questioned this, surmising that this may have been a rumor circulated by his detractors.[3][4] The 1903 Catholic Encyclopedia does not report this.[5]
Good morning @Katolophyromai:, I am writing this topic about Your undid of 12 January 2019 (oldid 878080417).
Regarding the new guidelines "We only need to mention something if it happened. If it did not happen, we can just not mention it. ", we can generally agree about that. But a lacking canonization is like an eception to this general rule, since it explains the official concerning of the Church, that is, even if tolerated, no Christian Church believes the Origen's doctrine is part of the Christian orthodoxy and salvation.
In a celebrative style, the article incipit ends with the following words: "Origen is a Church Father[13][14][15][16] and is widely regarded as one of the most important Christian theologians of all time. His teachings were especially influential in the east, with Athanasius of Alexandria and the three Cappadocian Fathers being among his most devoted followers."
This kind of emphatic style probably induces someone to compare Origen with St Augustin of Hippo or some other Doctor of the Church. And it is totally wrong.
Hence, the concerning about his lacking canonization seems to be relevant and making the article more NPOV. This can be done without repeating the concern of his posthomous condemnation, at least since it is well known when he and his doctrine has been claimed as heretic.Micheledisaveriosp (talk) 13:12, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This book of Henry De Lubac also seems to be a reliable source for the article.78.14.138.150 (talk) 17:33, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Micheledisaveriosp:, @78.14.138.150: Olson doesn't mention any condemnation or lack of canonization, as far as I understand. De Lubac discusses some controversy surrounding Origen's name, but there is not detail with regard to the damnation or lack of canonization.your edit here isn't well supported by any of the two sources you mention, and is redundant with what is already in the article.--Farang Rak Tham(Talk) 06:11, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please also note that writing on a talk page with a registered account, and then continue writing with an anonymous ip address can be interpreted as a form of sockpuppeting. It is better to stay registered all the time. (This is of course presuming that Michele and 78.14.138.150 are the same user, if that is not the case, than ignore this.)--Farang Rak Tham(Talk) 06:11, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Good morning @Farang Rak Tham:, I apologize for the questioned topic, that was mine, of course. I am experiencing some Internet connection problems, maybe I didn't control if the reply was correctly signed. Normally, I sign all my contributions too. Overlooking this, there is a reference about Henry de Lubac that seems to be interesting for being integrated in the article.Micheledisaveriosp (talk) 10:32, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@50.204.245.34: You recently added this passage to the last paragraph of the lead, along with a great deal of other information which was both uncited and unsupported by the information given in the body of the article:
Origen is considered to be a Heresiarch by adherents of the Ecumenical Councils due to his condemnation by five of these bodies according to the Roman Catholic reckoning and three according the the Eastern Orthodox enumeration.
I reverted this edit and you reverted my edit, suggesting Norman P. Tanner's Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils: Nicaea I to Lateran V to me in your edit summary, which you implied supports these claims you added to the article about Origen being a "Heresiarch." I do not, however, have access to that book and it is not available online, so I have no means of confirming whether it really says what you claim it says about Origen being regarded as a "Heresiarch." I will agree that, certainly, some people in ancient times regarded him as a Heresiarch and there are probably some people who still regard him as one today. Nonetheless, the statement that "Origen is considered to be a Heresiarch by adherents of the Ecumenical Councils" is clearly no longer true, if it was ever.
Even if Origen was condemned by subsequent councils after the Second Council of Constantinople (whose famous alleged condemnation of Origen, as I mention, is debated) and all the books on him somehow failed to mention this (or I somehow missed all the places where they do mention it, which is admittedly possible), it is still not accurate to say that he is "considered to be a Heresiarch by adherents of the Ecumenical Councils." I have yet to find a single scholarly source written in the modern era that calls him a "Heresiarch." Indeed, all the scholarly sources I have found written by orthodox Christian writers, both Protestant and Catholic, are favorable towards Origen, stating that later attacks on Origen's orthodoxy were either condemnations of what people influenced by Origen had claimed rather than what Origen himself had actually taught, or anachronistic judgments imposing the standards of orthodoxy of later eras onto Origen, who lived centuries prior in a very different theological environment, in which speculation was more widely tolerated.
Furthermore, it is worth pointing out that none other than Pope Benedict XVI included a sermon on Origen entitled "Origen of Alexandria: Life and Work" as part of his series of sermons Church Fathers: From Clement of Rome to Augustine delivered in 2007 in which he praises Origen as "a figure crucial to the whole development of Christian thought," "a true 'maestro,'" and "not only a brilliant theologian but also an exemplary witness of the doctrine he passed on." He concludes the sermon by urging his audience, "welcome into your hearts the teaching of this great master of the faith." I take this to mean that the Pope Emeritus himself is anathema, then? Perhaps we could say that some people regard him as a heretic, but we can certainly not say that all "adherents of the Ecumenical Councils" regard him as such. Furthermore, even if all the information you added turns out to be accurate and supported by reliable, scholarly sources, it is way too much information on the subject for the lead, which is already quite long as it is. –Katolophyromai (talk) 23:01, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Katolophyromai:, I reply to this topic given that it is indirectly related to my previous one. I think it there exists the Papal primacy as well as a Fidei depositum needing to be preserved. If the theories of Origen were critically reviewed in recent times in order to make him a Church Father, he isn't still claimed as a saint in the Roman Catholic Church nor it seems to be started its canonization process for sainthood. This element still may have its weight on a global evaluation of the article.
About the dominant opinion for which he wasn't an Heresiarch, many people may ask themselves where it comes from. It may be useeful to remember that untill 1873 Freemasonry and Roman Catholic Church were believed to be in conflict (and enemies). Finally, the St Michael's exorcism has a meaningful prophecy relating to the "most crafty enemies" of Jesus Christ God and his Church. But it doesn't give an exact timeline to its believers in order to identify its historical actuation. Spiritism, even if true, it is only one of the many existing points of view--Micheledisaveriosp (talk)
It's fairly standard to give a phonetic "spelling" of the names of people on their page. For example, /juːˈsiːbiəs/; Greek: Εὐσέβιος Eusebios. And these are contemporary pronunciations, not the way their peers knew them.
I never know whether to say 'rig' as in 'ridge' or as in plain 'rig', as in origin or Oregon.
I hate "Joe-see-fss" . . . but that's what everyone seems to call him, at least in the English-speaking world. What do Israeli and, say, Romance-language scholars call him, I wonder?
Nick Barnett (talk) 15:10, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The following passage from the "Views" section, under "Cosmology and Eschatology," contains what strongly seems to me an unsubstantiated claim:
"Jerome quotes Origen as having allegedly written that "after aeons and the one restoration of all things, the state of Gabriel will be the same as that of the Devil, Paul's as that of Caiaphas, that of virgins as that of prostitutes." Jerome, however, was not above deliberately altering quotations to make Origen seem more like a heretic, and Origen expressly states in his Letter to Friends in Alexandria that Satan and "those who are cast out of the kingdom of God" would be not included in the final salvation."
The source that is expressly listed for the second sentence, which is the one I take issue with, can be found here.
St. Jerome actually speaks about translation (and refutes accusations of mistranslation against him in another case) here. I really do not think we should be giving much credence to Dr. Chadwick (an evangelical Anglican, according to Wikipedia -- Origen is canonized in the Anglican communion) in regard to Jerome's moral aptitude. I think St. Jerome himself would answer more accurately in that regard: his letter indicates that any mistranslations are not willful and his translations, per classical norms, sought to render sense for sense. Ornithopolis (talk) 03:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]