Michael Nugent, who is the president of Atheist Ireland,
took Myers to task about his comments relating to bestiality.
[1]
Myers is primarily known for: his atheism; his opposition to creationism; desecrating a Communion host; his advocacy of leftist views (feminism, etc.); his his refusal to condemn bestiality and controversial remarks about bestiality.
Wikipedia's Peter Singer article notes his views about bestiality[2], shouldn't the article on PZ Myers do likewise? Knox490 (talk) 21:14, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't see why not, if done in an encyclopedic manner. This is a topic of disagreement between two major figures (Myers and Nugent) over a noteworthy issue (the ethics of sex with animals), with significant implications for atheism and secular humanism (sexual ethics in a secular humanistic mode). Approaching (talk) 03:54, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think it's accurate to describe Nugent as "taking Myers to task" about bestiality in the post linked by Knox490. Nugent says "I am not condemning PZ for his views on cephaloporn. I am asking him and his colleagues to act ethically consistently when judging others." Myers' references to tentacle porn are tongue-in-cheek, more like a running gag than an endorsement of bestiality. Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 05:54, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- PZ Myers said: "So, to answer clueless thick-skulled Christian idiot’s question, I don’t object to bestiality in a very limited set of specific conditions, but do not support it in any way."[3]
- What are the limited set of circumstances (Redacted)? (Redacted) Knox490 (talk) 11:11, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Literally none of this is mentioned in reliable sources, and if you have to run around pulling out-of-context quotes from 5-year-old blog posts to make your point, it probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia biography. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:56, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- NorthBySouthBaranof, please explain why the quote of PZ Myers was out of context. PZ Myers said: "So, to answer clueless thick-skulled Christian idiot’s question, I don’t object to bestiality in a very limited set of specific conditions, but do not support it in any way."[4] (Redacted) Knox490 (talk) 06:57, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Myers writes several blog entries per day. Meaning, he says a lot, and if you add everything of this level of relevance, the article will become about 500 times as long as it is now. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:17, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hob Gadling, the Wikipedia article on the atheist Peter Singer mentions his very unusual stand on bestiality. (Redacted) So that is also highly unusual for a public figure to say, is it not? If Myers wrote 1,000 books, but said that bestiality can be acceptable in limited set of circumstances that would certainly stand out, would it not? If not, why wouldn't it stand out? (Redacted) Knox490 (talk) 12:38, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I can see it now, Category:Bestiality by atheists. Johnuniq (talk) 00:05, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- It was tongue in cheek. Anybody who reads PZ can see that. And it was in response to a stupid question. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:36, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- re: redaction of my talk page material.
- I quoted PZ Myers himself from a website which is partly run/co-owned by him (freethoughtblogs.com) I also cited the president of Atheist Ireland, Michael Nugent. Both these sources are reliable sources about the matter.
- PZ Myers is a very ardent/passionate atheist who was called a provocateur given to using profanity by USA Today.[5] Myers' emotionalism/radicalism helped earn him the label of being an "eccentric voice" by the newspaper USA Today.[6] Myers described himself as being a "weird," "loud," "radicalized" and "firebrand" type of "New Atheist."[7]
- PZ Myers and his fans are very passionate atheists. Many times passionate people are reluctant to accept valid criticism. I would ask you to reconsider redacting my talk page material. Of the few people who address this matter on his talk page, I did have one person agree with my talk page post and said I raised a legitimate concern.
- PZ Myers' fans are now trying to whitewash his Wikipedia page and even civil discussion on its talk page. But the fact remains that PZ Myers is a controversial figure even among his fellow atheists and there are legitimate criticisms of Myers.
- Redacting my civil talk page post is a tacit admission by PZ Myers fans that they cannot rationally defend his unsavory public comments on bestiality.
- I have no desire to get involved in contention with hardcore fans of a "eccentric/weird/loud/radicalized" person such as Myers. Fellow atheists are disassociating with him (Atheist Ireland, etc. etc.) and his following has greatly diminished as a result. He has marginalized himself as a public figure and his influence on world affairs/public affairs is now negligible. Several notable commentators on the left/right portions of the political spectrum have declared New Atheism dead and the movement is no longer a very influential movement. I have made my position clear and I am not going to get involved in a revert war on a talk page. If you persist to redacting my civil talk page posts, I will not hesitate to get a Wikipedia admin involved.Knox490 (talk) 22:39, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- You're talking to experienced editors who know that cherry-picking words from the internet in order to associate a BLP opponent with evil is not permitted by WP:BLP. Stuff like this on a talk page is ludicrous. Taking this to an admin would save others the trouble, please go ahead. Also, please respect WP:NOTFORUM and WP:TPG and use this page only to discuss actionable proposals to improve the article. Johnuniq (talk) 23:08, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As far as your experienced editor remark, I have been editing Wikipedia since 2011 and I am very familiar with its policies. And direct quotes from a person and commentary by a leading figure on a topic is certainly not cherry picking. And I would remind you that Wikipedia does not have extensive rules supporting seniority and that meritocracies are often far more efficient than seniority based systems. So your experienced editor remark is not a particularly relevant remark.
New atheists and their supporters have a reputation for being militant/unreasonable and Wikipedia's article on New Atheism has an extensive criticism section which reflects this matter. I understand that you may be a new atheists and be very passionate about atheism. But I would ask you to temper your passion and stick to the facts. And the fact is that both PZ Myers and Peter Singer are both atheists who have made unusual remarks on bestiality and that civil societies around the world reject bestiality and this is reflected by many laws against bestiality and public disdain for bestiality around the world. Knox490 (talk) 14:39, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- You are missing a lot of points here.
- "You're talking to experienced editors who know that" was obviously not an attempt to employ "rules supporting seniority", it was a remark in the vein of "we were not born yesterday, go try to fool somebody else".
- "And direct quotes from a person and commentary by a leading figure on a topic is certainly not cherry picking" Of course it can be. And in this case it is.
- "New atheists and their supporters have a reputation for" - only in some circles. This is your opinion. Please do not add your opinion to articles.
- Again, you are not fooling anybody. --Hob Gadling (talk) 20:54, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- You are clearly poorly quoting me in order to dodge the evidence I gave. The full quote is: "New atheists and their supporters have a reputation for being militant/unreasonable and Wikipedia's article on New Atheism has an extensive criticism section which reflects this matter."
- The New Atheism movement has been relentlessly attacked via many legitimate attacks and it is now on life support. The atheist and evolutionary biologist David Sloan Wilson wrote, "The world appears to be tiring of the New Atheism movement.."[8] In 2016, a New Atheism convention was cancelled due to lack of interest.[9]
- New Atheism is not like Christianity. It did not have staying power. The goofball PZ Myers making inappropriate comments about bestiality, Richard Dawkins making a ridiculous remark about the morale monster Adolf Hitler (Dawkins said, “What’s to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn’t right? What's to prevent us from saying Hitler wasn't right? I mean, that is a genuinely difficult question." [10]), etc. etc. quickly discredited the New Atheism movement.Knox490 (talk) 23:25, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Evidence? You were preaching, pontificating, and soapboxing. With poor logic, too. Having an extensive criticism section has nothing to do with having a "reputation for being militant/unreasonable".
- Your low opinion of people who disagree with you and your premature villain gloating have absolutely no bearing on the improvement of the article. And that is what this page is for. So please either go away or stick to the point. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:13, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because I pointed out via prominent/mainstream sources that Dawkins and his fans have a reputation for being vitriolic and engaging in controversial free speech and controversial activities (as part of discussion of whether or not Richard Dawkins is a controversial figure who often embroils himself into political controversies), this does not automatically mean that I have a low opinion of people who disagree with me. I work with people on various projects who have very different opinions than me on a wide variety matters and we get along just fine. People come from a wide variety of backgrounds and they should do their best to work out solutions which benefit all parties concerned. Me thinks the gentlemen protests too much.
- I am very familiar with logical fallacies and various forms of logic. You may recall that I pointed out you engaging in the ad hominem logical fallacy.
- When engaging in online discourse, I try not to engage in fruitless speculation about people engaging in such behaviors such as gloating, etc. I suggest you do the same.Knox490 (talk) 00:39, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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