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Performing Art

I have not seen one source stating that Professional Wrestling is a performing or performance art. All I have seen is a bunch of original research with no sources reliable or otherwise. If one does not find sources the material should be removed. Please see Wikipedia:No original research -Rainbowofpeace (talk) 13:01, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is not WP:OR this is clearly stated in the source. Saying that it does not use the same choice of wording is just ridiculous. The sources and article as a whole clearly show that it is performing art but its exact definition. There is no question it fits the definition exactly. - GalatzTalk 13:48, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for engaging in discussion. Listen I really do think if this hypothesis you have is substantial you should be able to show me at least one source that does call this form of entertainment a performing art. I will admit Professional Wrestling is not my forte of knowledge however I did study the arts especially performing arts and I can tell you the discussion of Professional Wrestling never came from any of my professors. Now if you insist on not finding a source that states so I'm afraid I will have to go to the Original Research noticeboard.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 13:54, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can you honestly tell me that based on the source given (which is heavily used across hundreds for articles on WP), does not say its a type of art? It discusses it being choreographed.
Per the given source [1] writers work on plots and storylines well in advance, and every match is another chapter in the story. Who wins and who loses is all in the script. It also says It's true that the plots are predetermined and the moves are choreographed. Its a script and its choreographed. Just because it doesnt use the term "performing arts" it doesn't mean that using that source is WP:SYNTH.
The second page [2] goes further into it, saying that the illusion that the characters and storylines are real. Is this any different than the way you would descripe a play? - GalatzTalk 14:13, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to use this Routlege book as a source.Icewhiz (talk) 07:42, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While script and choreography might be aspects of the theater arts, they are not what define theater art. So we can't say that simply because something is choreographed that it can be defined as performing art. As well, performance art is a very specific art form within the fine, visual and performing arts. I think the lead here, "is a form of sports entertainment[1][2][3] which combines athletics with theatrical performance." is fine now.(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:05, 10 April 2018 (UTC))[reply]

Per our own article on Performance art. "The meaning of the term in the narrower sense is related to postmodernist traditions in Western culture. From about the mid-1960s into the 1970s, often derived from concepts of visual art, with respect to Antonin Artaud, Dada, the Situationists, Fluxus, installation art and conceptual art, performance art tended to be defined as an antithesis to theatre,... Performance art is a term usually reserved to refer to a conceptual art which conveys a content-based meaning in a more drama-related sense, rather than being simple performance for its own sake for entertainment purposes...." bold mine.(Littleolive oil (talk) 14:36, 8 May 2018 (UTC))[reply]

Origins

The "originating culture" list is getting way too big in my opinion. Pro-wrestling originates from Europe (Western Europe specifically) according to the article. I think it's origin should be listed simply as "Europe" or France to be literal. Thoughts? Bbx118 (talk) 20:49, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mock combat

@HHH Pedrigree: Although I'm not a fan of pro wrestling, I don't hate it either. I was trying to be fair. "Mock" in this context does not mean "mockery", it means "simulated". When I was in school, we did "mock exams" to prepare us for the real thing. I also think that the characters in pro wrestling parody the antics of real prizefighters. And they're often deliberately comedic. How is that untrue and unfair? Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson were pretty wild, and the pro wrestlers take that pattern to ridiculous degrees. Fans love it. Kurzon (talk) 17:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I have seen your recents edition in the article. First, I think the terms aren't correct. As other user told you, the factual term is staged or scripted. Mock combater, parody... aren't neutral, looks like a anti-pro wrestling article.

Also, sources. The first section is sourced. Not described as mock combat, but performance art instead. I know, pro wrestling it's several things: its a theatre, it's a scripted fight, a choreogaphy. But your editions hasn't sources to support your claims. I included the sources and some parts of your editions, I think the current is a good approach. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 18:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@HHH Pedrigree: Uh, is English your first language? Because your page makes me think you're Spanish. Mock combat and parody ARE neutral terms. I don't know where you got the idea that they are biased. Methinks you don't know English so well. Kurzon (talk) 19:24, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. No, English isn't my first language. As I said, User MPJ-DK told ""mock" is not neutral - staged is factual", which it's true. Most sources call wrestling staged or scripted. Sources in the lead say "performance". Also, Parody has negative connotations. Wikipedia says "is a work which is created to imitate, make fun of or comment on an original work." I prefer "pro wrestlers perform" or "pro wrestlers have characters", which is more neutral. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:16, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@HHH Pedrigree: And how is "parody" offensive? This is all theater, and not meant to be taken seriously. Kurzon (talk) 06:02, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

.As I said, sources and words. I don't think your editions are WP:NPOV, since you see pro wrestling as "not serious". Is pro wrestling theatre? Yes. Has pro wrestling drama? Yes. Is pro wrestling simulated fights? Yes. Pro wrestlers aren't real fighters, they are acting like one. But not every wrestler is a parody. Several of them are serious wrestlers, like Kazuchika Okada, Bret Hart, Minoru Suzuki, Walter. Other are comical, like Joey Ryan, Toru Yano, Otis... but not every pro wrestler is comical. They are acting, they are playing a role, which is more neutral than "parody of a fighter". [3] " copies a particular situation, making the features or qualities of the original more noticeable in a way that is humorous" but also "[ C ] disapproving, something that so obviously fails to achieve the effect that was intended that it is stupid". As I said, Parody has negative connotation, it's easy to avoid. About Mock Combat, as @MPJ-DK: said, staged is more factual and sources say it's a performance. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:06, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@HHH Pedrigree: OK, have it your way. "Stage" combat it is. Stage combat is a specific type of mock combat, and thus it is a more precise term. And perhaps "parody" is the wrong word after all, as pro wrestling isn't really meant to make fun of real combat sports, it's just theater that never took itself seriously. I'm keeping the word "theater" in because theater is a specific type of performance art, one that include drama (as opposed to, say, stage magic and animal acts).

A little note about references: a paragraph isn't necessarily better because it has lots of references. References merely validate facts, they don't make them relevant. You write good paragraph first, and get references later. This is a mistake too many editors make. A rubbish paragraphs is rubbish no matter how many references you jam in. Kurzon (talk) 08:02, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@HHH Pedrigree: A book I just found (Chow et al. 2017) describes pro wrestling as both performance art and theater because their physical feats are real and often painful, whereas stage combat in plays usually involve no injury at all. It's a little weird to me but it seems lots of people don't think performance art and theater are the same thing so I will just roll with it. Kurzon (talk) 08:28, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Template:WWE Match Types" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Template:WWE Match Types. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 June 3#Template:WWE Match Types until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm Talk 03:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Annotation

Ain't no footnotes in cite like the ref got straight kicked out the ring.

I know this is an article about stage-fighting, in some ways the real-world equivalent of arguing on the Internet, but could someone with a depth of knowledge please spend a couple minutes productively instead by adding reliable external links to tackle some of the long-overdue "citation needed" markers? This is too prominent a topic for how stale some of those have gotten, but it really needs a true fan who is already familiar with other sources on the subject and who can immediately bring to mind the right ones rather than a conventional Wikinerd with no specific attachment to this topic who will just start Bing'ing hopelessly off into the wilderness. Thanks in advance :D

Theater or sport?

Kurzon (talk) 15:09, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We shall await for more people responses before making high changes like the ones have been made, this discussion will begin. In my mind its a combat sport.

@Acekard: Care to make a few comments? Kurzon (talk) 17:21, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://casetext.com/statute/new-jersey-statutes/title-5-amusements-public-exhibitions-and-meetings/chapter-52a/section-52a-1-definitions

m. "Professional wrestling" means an activity in which participants struggle hand-in-hand primarily for the purpose of providing entertainment to spectators rather than conducting a bona fide athletic contest. n. "Wrestling" means a bona fide athletic contest in which participants struggle hand-in-hand with the object of winning by throwing an opponent or scoring points and in which any purpose of providing entertainment is secondary.

I don't think pro wrestling counts as performance art because the wrestling is not meant to be artistic. I've read the article on performance art and I don't see pro wrestling in there. Pro wrestling is definitely a performing art, which is a different thing.

Professional wrestling is definitely a sport. Its extreme popularity in the United States proves this point.WWE YouTube has over 90 million subscribers and no other sports company even comes close. Also, WrestleMania 38 has over 2 billion views, which is a sign of the popularity of sport of professional wrestling. WWE Lover Fan Forever (talk) 20:42, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In theater or any kind of art, we don't have any injuries, while professional wrestlers get injured more than any other athlete. Even WWE games and other Pro Wrestling games are offered with sports genre.Don't edit my posts,it is an insult to us Pro Wrestling and WWE fans.FUCK YOU Kurzon 🖕 WWE Lover Fan Forever (talk) 16:27, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extremely low quality video

Please stop edit warring to keep low quality home movies in the article. Thanks. MrOllie (talk) 15:45, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@MrOllie: I put your video back in, but it's not really appropriate for the History section. Put it somewhere else. Kurzon (talk) 18:18, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not my video, I've been removing it. Please revert yourself. You have already breached the WP:3RR. MrOllie (talk) 18:19, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Seen the video, it's described as learning how to run and bounce against the ropes but it's just a lad climbing a turnbuckle and then rolling off. Walloper1980 (talk) 16:15, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Better terminology

@Sloppert.J.Globbert: Good to have a pro wrestler giving some input. So you don't like the term "choreographed moves". What are better terms? I want something along the line of "pulled punches". I want to say something like "the wrestlers used pulled punches to minimize injury". But obviously you don't just use punches in the ring, so we need a more general term for attacks that are meant to look serious but are actually safe. I don't like "practiced movements" because boxers and MMA fighters also "practice" their movements. Kurzon (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your choice and your critique of my choice, however, I see the term "choreographed" as being more of a controlled and well-planned-out performance which contradicts how professional wrestling is sometimes nearly completely improvised (as seen by how workers like Eddie Guerrero or The Rock would sometimes 'call' their matches in the ring and choose their moves by what they felt was necessary in order to get a good response). Of course, there are extremely detailed and choreographed matches (a famous example would be how Randy Savage often scripted his matches to a fine point), nonetheless, the term "choreographed moves" gives off the notion that every single match is completely and professionally rehearsed to me.
I used "practiced movements" almost BECAUSE of how boxers and MMA fighters also practice their movements, as there's multiple moves and spots that almost every wrestler should know how to properly execute without one-to-one training sessions before a match. In fact, I believe that it was Juice Robinson in Colt Cabana's "Art of Wrestling Podcast" who stated that working with Japanese-speaking wrestlers is actually pretty easy despite the language barrier due to how most moves are either so well-known and practiced that they could be done without speaking or that the names of the moves were universal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGsxTjz0Egw).
Of course, there are huge spots in matches which are definitely choreographed and rehearsed, but I just wanted to change the vocabulary to fit almost every match. While I think that the term "cooperative moves" could work, that almost feels too broad in my opinion.
I apologize if any of this seems superfluous or if any of my points need to be further explained, but hopefully my point still makes sense. 2601:204:D880:7A90:0:0:0:C54D (talk) 16:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand. "Choreography" implies a planned sequence of moves, whereas pro wrestling is largely improvised. Kurzon (talk) 06:44, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have settled on "simulated attacks" until I think of something better. Kurzon (talk) 14:55, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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