U.S. Congress Unassessed

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It has been proposed in this section that Removal of Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the House be renamed and moved to Efforts to remove Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the US House of Representatives. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use ((subst:requested move)). Do not use ((requested move/dated)) directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Removal of Kevin McCarthy → Efforts to remove Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the US House of Representatives –
Efforts to remove Kevin McCarthy? I feel like an elementary school teach for saying from what? I think the article requires a better name.

Proposing Efforts to remove Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the US House of Representatives. It's long, but I think we need a clearer and more descriptive name, the current one is pretty insider baseball. Open to suggestions. MicrobiologyMarcus (talk) 14:33, 3 October 2023 (UTC) MicrobiologyMarcus (talk) 14:47, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose — Titles are not required to be extremely descriptive. The proposed title disambiguates as if there were attempts to remove McCarthy as representative or minority leader. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 14:51, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as proposed; also opposed to the present title - Could easily be construed as efforts to remove him from the house rather than just as speaker. estar8806 (talk) ★ 15:29, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even just "Efforts to remove Kevin McCarthy as Speaker [of the House]" would be okay. There's really no need to say U.S. House of Representatives as there's no ambiguity with any other Kevin McCarthys. Anyone who doesn't know what country's house he is speaker of will learn quickly from the lede. estar8806 (talk) ★ 15:32, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wait until we know the results of the motion to vacate. I do think that House Speaker should be in the title somewhere. Maybe Efforts to remove House Speaker Kevin McCarthy.

• Oppose per WP:CONCISE. That title is unnecessarily long. Rreagan007 (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Move to Efforts to remove Kevin McCarthy as Speaker. I agree the current title is inadequate, and the proposed title is insufficiently concise. Mdewman6 (talk) 16:14, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - well, I've messed up the formatting by including the period in the proposed new name, since fixed but I wanted to add that I support the recent recommendations as to Efforts to remove Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the House of Representatives as below per BarrelProof. Thanks, MicrobiologyMarcus (talk) 16:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed the period, since obvious and acknowledged. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:03, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Efforts to remove Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the House of Representatives, removing "US" but not removing "of the House of Representatives": Wikipedia shouldn't use a severely truncated title like "Speaker", especially with a capital letter. See MOS:JOBTITLES ("Speaker", by itself, is not a formal title) and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 227#Capitalization of "the Strait", "the Bay", etc. and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters/Archive 13#Use of capitals in a shortened title. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:03, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Update: Let's try Removal of Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the House of Representatives. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• BarrelProof's proposal as a balance between WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 17:46, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Move to 2023 motion to vacate the speaker of the United States House of Representatives eduardog3000 (talk) 18:46, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  IMHO, it would be awkward to remove Kevin McCarthy. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 20:11, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per WP:CONCISE. Titles need not tell the whole story, they just need to briefly identify the topic. Anyone searching for this article already knows he's Speaker, and anyone who stumbles upon it will learn that in the first sentence. The current title would just redirect back to the much longer title, so there's not much point to moving. Station1 (talk) 20:23, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as the proposed title is unnecessarily long per WP:CONCISE. I am not a fan of the current name, and believe that it should be renamed to be more clear. However, the proposed title is too descriptive. Retroity (talk) 20:57, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose because the title is a bit too unwieldy but I do agree that it should be changed. I agree with the suggestion "Efforts to remove Kevin McCarthy as Speaker [of the House]"

NateNate60 (talk) 21:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support The proposed title is long but is not unnecessarily long. It is clearer than the current title. The guideline for conciseness does not require short titles, it only requires they should be as short as possible. Bluefist ^talk 21:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move but what about "Motion to vacate against Kevin McCarthy" or "2023 House motion to vacate"? The current title is inadequate, it makes it sound like we're trying to nuke him from orbit or something, and these options are much more concise than the current proposal. Toadspike (talk) 21:07, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  If we must stick with this title, could we at least update it to "Removal of Kevin McCarthy"? Now that the event has actually occurred, the title should change. Toadspike (talk) 21:09, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Closure and reopening: The RM was closed by Esolo5002 at 21:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC), saying "The result of the move request was: Not moved. Move request is moot because these are no longer efforts." Esolo5002 also renamed the article to Removal of Kevin McCarthy immediately after the closure. After discussion on their User talk page, they gave permission to revert the closure, as it appears that there has been no agreement on selection of an appropriate title. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:20, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I repeat my suggestion of Removal of Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the House of Representatives. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• BarrelProofs proposal Other title is too dragged-on. The current title is better, but with the additional context from BarrelProof. Otherwise, you need to know what position Kevin McCarthy is being removed from. He was not removed from Congress. Conyo14 (talk) 23:56, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Impeachment of Bill Clinton, Relief of Douglas MacArthur, Dismissal of James Comey, Firing of Shirley Sherrod—we usually don't include offices in titles like these. As Station1 says, titles do not need to tell the full story. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 01:23, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: I fixed the current title in the request for the bots. Didn't change the proposed title though.--estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:33, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've started drafting Draft:October 2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election, in the case that these efforts end up succeeding. Additions welcome (I don't have much time to edit today myself). Elli (talk | contribs) 19:51, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now that McCarthy has been removed we need to decide what to do with this article. Either:

1. Rename this article and create a new article for October 2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election
2. Merge this article with a future October 2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election article.

I have no opinion. This article does need to be renamed. Thoughts? Esolo5002 (talk) 20:46, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd prefer to merge this to October 2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election. Can be split out if necessary, but I doubt that would be the case. Elli (talk | contribs) 20:53, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if this should be renamed or moved but if this is not merged, then I propose the title "Removal of House Speaker Kevin McCarthy." HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 20:53, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Move to removal of Kevin McCarthy as speaker of the United States House of Representatives. We don't need "efforts to" anymore. Neutrality^talk 20:58, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm in favor of this. Don't think we should merge, at least not yet, because the removal and new election are different acts. Spaghettifier (talk) 21:08, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes. In favor of the removal being it’s own article SecretName101 (talk) 21:14, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes. It has been successful, and I'm sure that there will be so much information coming out about it. User:NDfan173 (talk) 21:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Agreed. Move and keep separate. This is a separate and very important historical event and will almost certainly be searched for independently of the upcoming election in the future. As an encyclopedia, wikipedia should dedicate a standalone article to such an event. Brooklaika (talk) 21:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Keep separate: It's too historic to not be its own article. I agree with the move/renaming as suggested above by Neutrality. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 00:04, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge. This is essentially the background section to the upcoming Speaker election, and there's not much to say about it outside that context. Antony–22 (^talk⁄_contribs) 21:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep separate: Option 3. The two events, the election and this removal, are (or, rather, will be) separate historical events. There is no need to merge the two yet. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 21:33, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge - Could easily be a "background" section on the article for the speaker election. estar8806 (talk) ★ 21:52, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep separate. There's enough content on this topic to be a standalone article. Rager7 (talk) 22:07, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge into October 2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election. ~ HAL333 22:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep separate as it seems to a historic first. If it were to be merged, the new election might overshadow the historic nature of the removal of the speaker. I agree with Neutrality on the new page name, "Removal of Kevin McCarthy as speaker of the United States House of Representatives."

While the October 2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election article would discuss the election of the new speaker, "Removal of Kevin McCarthy as speaker of the United States House of Representatives" could discuss the impact and consequences of the removal of the Speaker, for both parties and broader US politics.

Additionally, We can expect more information, analysis and commentary such as "The Washington Post staff writer Adam Blake stated that Democrats were unwilling to save McCarthy." Wiki6995 (talk) 22:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep separate as per above. This is very much a developing event, and if we move anything, it should wait until the dust settles. 𝙰𝙶𝚛𝚎𝚊𝚝𝚄𝚜𝚎𝚛𝚗𝚊𝚖𝚎𝙲𝚑𝚘𝚒𝚌𝚎 _(ramble) 22:49, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Separate as per above. Death Editor 2 (talk) 23:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep separate: The removal is not part of the election (which may or may not take place in October 2023). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:06, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment — A move should have occurred following the motion to vacate. Esolo5002 prevented such a move from occurring. I have no comment on whether or not this should be merged at this time, but an election article should exist. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:13, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  https://x.com/reptroynehls/status/1709342759172059159?s=46&t=cr_XgNJjvBkqxvXNgSDlIw <--- Trump Nominated 2603:8000:3E43:4D00:15D:293:AEB2:E6C (talk) 23:16, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The election page already exists. This was not that page and discussion needed to occur. Esolo5002 (talk) 00:11, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge. This is an example of recentism. We don't need a new article for every development. We especially shouldn't separate out events that just happened from their main articles per WP:TOOSOON and WP:DELAY. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep separate This isn't apart of the new election, it's the cause. ⁠TheXuitts (talk) 11:35, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep separate as to the arguments above, summarily: this is the background and separate from the other article, which I suspect will grow to be too long and move to Removal of Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the House of Representatives per the same reasons as the requested move arguments above by BarrelProof: US is redundant and not necessary so as to be WP:Concise but we need to keep as Speaker of the House of Representatives to be WP:Precise. If kept the same, removal from what? It makes no sense as is. MicrobiologyMarcus (talk) 23:44, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep separate per above. It is too lengthy to merge into the speaker election article, and the background material here about the budget negotiations, etc., is a step removed from the speaker election anyway. This article rightfully exists. Davey2116 (talk) 23:58, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep separate but with context. Eventually a new Speaker will be elected. That information will be posted here, but all the drama and shenanigans that will undoubtedly happen over the next days/weeks is more appropriate on a separate article. Conyo14 (talk) 23:59, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep separate: They are two separate events, each with their own merits. They are indeed related, but I don't believe this warrants a merge. The two subjects are not duplicates of each other, are substantial enough, and are their own events in history. Also support keeping the name as-is ("Removal of Kevin McCarthy" as of 00:08, 4 October 2023 (UTC)). PRECISE has been said as a reason to rename; I'd say the opposite. The very first sentence says "but should be no more precise than that." There is no other removal of McCarthy from any other office. Adding information about which office he was removed from is redundant: there is no other office applicable (to my knowledge). WhoAteMyButter (🌇_talk│🍂^contribs) 00:08, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep separate: His removal being the first ever speaker to be removed is an important historical event that deserves to have its own article not combined witht he regular articles for speaker elections. They are related so should be mentioned and linked in each other's articles but should in no way be combined. Timetorockknowlege (talk) 00:27, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge. The two articles are essentially contain the same exact topic. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 00:45, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Just because there were two separate votes does not necessarily mean these are two separate events. The removal of McCarthy and the election to replace him are inherently joined at the hip. Both articles essentially cover the exact same thing. The article October 2015 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election goes into detail on the events that led to Boehner's resignation, there's no reason the 2023 article can't do the same for the events leading to that election. Fry129 (talk) 00:53, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge - same topic Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 01:10, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speaker Kevin McCarthy is on the ropes. Here are some possible successors. (nbcnews.com)

So far, we're getting good updates. Keep the info flowing, comrades! Western Progressivist (talk) 23:19, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]