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Ktsquare, why did you remove (柔然) from the article? -- Zestauferov
It was a mistake, fixed now. kt2 15:34, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The article states that 'the derogatory term Juan Juan (wg) or Ruan Ruan (py) (蠕蠕 lit. meaning "Wriggling insects") and Ru Ru (茹茹 lit. meaning "Fodder") remained in modern usage despite being derived by Emperor Taiwu of Northern Wei who waged war against and intended to intimidate the confederacy.'
Is there any need to retain 'Juan Juan' as the location of the main article? Would it not be preferable to move the main article to 'Rouran (柔然)', which appears to be closer to the name they used for themselves -- with redirects, of course. I don't know how acceptable this would be to historians who are attached to familiar terms, but in a modern age where derogatory names for any race are frowned upon, surely it is better to show a little respect for a group of bygone people!
This article makes some odd claims. For instance,
"(Pinyin: 蠕蠕 lit. meaning "Wriggling insects")"
It is trivial, but strictly speaking it does not. No big deal because it is close enough.
"one of their member tribes, the Hua (who they placed, at the head of the Uighurs in 460), later appeared in Europe as the Eurasian Avars, the gross oversimplification that they were synonymous with the Avars has become widespread."
But this is a problem. What is the evidence that (a) the Hua were one of their member tribes, that (b) they were placed at the head of the Uyghurs, and (c) that the Hua and Hua alone formed the Avars? Of course the Turks claimed that the Avars were their slaves so it is one of the few documented links between China and Europe.
"Some scholars claim that the Korean pronunciation Yuyon is a more archaic form and hence closer to the original pronunciation."
Can anyone name a scholar who makes this claim? I'll accept anyone in English, Chinese, Korean, German or Japanese. I'll even struggle through some French if need be.
"Little is known of their ruling elite, which the Weishu cited as an offshoot of the Xianbei."
Actually it doesn't. It says they are an offshoot of the Donghu (the Xianbei also being an offshoot of the Donghu, the difference is not big).
"Though they admitted the Asena into their federation,"
Evidence of this claim? Anyone? As above. Lao Wai 13:50, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
(2) Avar means "brave hunter" in Old Turkic. Given how they are described - light cavalry with smart leaders - and how petulant the Gokturks were about them - I bet they stole a lot of gear before taking off. The description their triumph letter gives is pretty vague but as they'd taken 140,000 captives from the Gaoche/Tujue - and as the Avars were quite good at winning allies I'm certain they'd have a thumb out for anyone who could ride. Rouran, Hephthalite, Xionite, Chunni, Var. (3) Uyghur I've never heard linked to Hua or Uar. I have a dumb theory on their name - they used to be called the Moon Clan when they spoke Yuezhi and in Turkish that would be Aygur. (4) the Korean term for Rouran - Yuyon - is a karaoke version. Korea did ally with them. Maybe they have something to do with the Yilou or Jianzhou. (They used to call the Xiongnu "Guns"). (5) lastly, have there ever been two empires with uglier names than Hephthalite (strong men? seven tribes? a Greek word for fortress? and Rouran. Ashinas is a cool name though. It means sky blue and recognized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 02:10, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Altera/rouran.html
First paragraph: "Because one of their member tribes, the Hua (who they placed at the head of the Uyghurs in 460) later appeared in Europe as the Eurasian Avars," The word 'Hua' was linked to the disambiguation page of 'Hua', where you can read:
"Hua is:
the self designation (endonymic ethnicon) used by the Hephthalites"
This is obviously a contradiction. Also the other points of the disambiguation page contain no reference to the Avars. The Hephtalites may have called themselves 'Hua', but that has nothing to do with the Avar-Hua of this 'Rouran' article. At least there is no explanation about a connection between Hephtalite-Hua, Avar-Hua and Rouran, and the link to the article about the Avar-Hua is lacking anyway.
I would advise to not just place links wildly, but instead to look up first, whereto the links would lead. Because of this contradiction I have deleted the link of the word 'Hua'. Somebody might clear this up and then relink the word. 15:54, 30 May 2006 62.178.78.205
Well, I know that the Uar were the ethnic majority of the Hephthalite confederacy, and Enoki identified these as the Hua, but as for the very confusing JuanJuan/Avars/Uighur/Hephthalite connections which are all over the internet, the sources for this are elusive. http://www.hostkingdom.net/siberia.html mentions Avar rulers names which look chinese, but none of them appear to be on the list. Maybe this man knows something?
Can anyone work out what these names refer to? Anlushan led a rebellion in 755 AD so "An-lo-ch'en" can not be him. Kaz 22:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes Where! 180.217.193.152 (talk) 14:21, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Very interestingly... Religion "tengrizm" (!) ;-) And about Proto-Mongol/Syanbi language anything is not present. By the way, in Caucasian-Avarian language avarag "the prophet, the messenger" and Avaristan "land of Avars", avaral "the Avars (Caucasian Avars)" means. See: Avarsko-Russkij slovar'//by red.M. Saidov. Moscow. 1967, p. 25. And still... In the Byzantian sources are mentioned people Kermikhions, living among Avars. In Iranian languages kerm is "worm", and in language of Avesta (also in the Armenian language) karmir is "red". Red paint in olden time did of a special kind of worms, therefore here is no contradiction,for example, in Russian cherv' (= cservy in transcription of Magyar language) - the worm, but chervonnyj (chervonniy) means "brightly red". In Caucasian-avarian language, khumur /plural. khurmal/ (this dialect word) is the "wolf" and a worm living in a body of the person (khomor, plural. khormal) means (see for "wolf" Avarsko-Russkij slovar'//by red.M. Saidov. Moscow. 1967, p.530; and for Khomor "a worm living in a body of the person", see: P.A. Saidova. Dialektologicheskij slovar' avarskogo jazyka. Moskva. "Nauka"., 2008, pp. 363, 382). And now compare: Mittel-Mongolian qoroqai, Mongolian written qor-qai, Baoan GorGei, Dagur χorugw, Mongor xorGui "a worm, an insect". In Kalmyk the basis xor "maggot of Horsefly". In Turkic languages it are related: Old-Turkic qurt, Turkmen Gurt, Turkish kurt, Khakass xurt, Chuvash xort "worm". (See Starostin S.A. Altajskaja problema i proishozhdenije japonskogo jazyka. Moskva. "Nauka", 1991, pp 54,186) And in Turkish, Turkmen and the some othwer Turkic languages there is an additional value "wolf". In Persian kerm "worm" (< indoeurupean *kur-mi-), Afghan (pashto) khamar "mythological snakes, a dragon". Also in Finn language is available (kurmu), but this probably Indo-Iranian loan. The ROURAN...De Groot the name of this people writes as Dsu-dsu (Dsut-dsut, Dsurdsut). Marquart specifies, that in «Sun-shu» same people is called "Da-Dan"or a "Dandan". In G. E. Grumm-Grzhimajlo's opinion, Rouran (Zhouzhan) it at all the name of the state, and a nickname, «on accord given by emperor Toba-Dao who wished to tell her, that as neighbours Ruan-Ruan are so unpleasant and restless, as insects Ruan-Ruan». (see: Grumm-Grzhimajlo G. Е. Zapadnaja Mongolija i Urjankhajskij kraj. Т.II. Leningrad, 1926, p. 27). The etnic Name "KHOR" were the general name of Proto-Mongols - Dung-hu (see: Gumilev L. N. «Hunnu». Sankt-Peterburg. "Tajm–aut kompas", 1993, p. 31). Also the mythological ancestor Khorin Buryats - is "KHORIDOY". Among Mongols were known also KHORCHIN (khor and probably mongolian chinuo/chino/chon "wolf" and CHAKHAR (from dzha "red" and khor). And at last the last... At Proto-Mongols Wuhuan (O-huan) a place dwellings of spirits of ancestors the RED MOUNTAIN (!) was considered. (see: Mify Narodov Mira. Т.I Мoskva. Sovetskaja enciklopedija. 1991,p.170) I shall remind, that the Afghani city of Kunduz is known as Wuhuan, and later as War-waliz, that means "City of Avars". The state symbol of the Caucasian Avars (Caucasian Avar Khanate) according to Georgian geographer Vakhushti Bagrationi "the wolf with a banner on a background of mountains" (17-18 centuries). (see: Vakhushti. Istorija Gruzii, pp. 553,641,653// Institut rukopisej imeni K. Kelidze. Akademija Nauk Gruzinskoj SSR. f. N., № 2079). Actually AVAR in Caucasian Avaristan it is KHUNZAKH which has no translation except for as "at Huns". --81.24.80.233 (talk) 14:39, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Pay attention to a fragment from the Byzantian source: Turkic qaghan has become angry on Byzantines and has declared, that it is necessary not to cut this people (Avars, Uarkhonites) a sabre, but to tramble down as Ants (=INSECTS) by horses : "Bu gec kalisin sebebi, Gok Turkleri fiili savasa istirak icin tazyik eden Bizansin gonderdigi muteaddid elcilerden biri olan Valentinosu 576’da Aral Golu havalisindeki Turk bolgesinde karsilayan Turk prensi Bizans’i, Gok Turklerin af edilmez hasimlari olan Avarlari (Varhonitai = Uar-huni) himaye etmekle ve kilicla degil, atlarin ayaklari altinda karinca gibi ezilerek oldurulmegi hakeden bu kavme barinacak yer vermekle sucluyordu ki, bu dogru idi" (See: Kafesoglu, Ibrahim. Asya Turk devletleri // Turk Dunyasi El Kitabi. I cilt, Turk Kulturunu Arastirmalari Enstitusu. Ikinci Baski. Ankara. 1992. s.130). From this citation it is visible, that Tyurkyuts (Old-Turks) also named their insects, but itself so did not name. From here follows, that "Khor's", they are Proto-Mongols, but not Turks. To me it is not clear, why all time try to expose enemies of Avars as Avars. That is an origin of their enemies to write down to their victims. Avars were attacked by Old-Turks (Tukyu) and Tele tribes. Subsequently the part of Tele tribes began to name itself Uigurs (hueyhe/hueyhu).--81.24.80.233 (talk) 16:48, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
You here constantly write "Uigur", and actually this tribe Ugor/Ogor (the Finno-Ugor) as "zabender", "koczagir" and "tarniakh". In Caucasian-Avarian agaraw is "the relative close, making related", in Afghan-Pashto wageri "People" in other old languages ghur is "konfederation". Ghur - the Territory and city in Afghanistan, whence have intruded GHURDZHARS in India in structure of Hephthalites.--81.24.80.233 (talk) 14:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
This article cites no sources and is obviously a mix of material from different sources. It needs major work to turn it into a reliable encyclopedia article. I will try to get back to it soon if I can find the time - but, maybe others could start checking information and finding reliable references for claims, please? John Hill (talk) 07:37, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
The article Yujiulü Anluochen has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the ((dated prod))
notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing ((dated prod))
will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jeepday (talk) 13:17, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
the artical states that this historical time period of this nation state was the early middle ages when in fact the majority of the time was late classical the country went from 330 to 555 ad and historians classify the year 500 as the begining of the middle ages so only 55 years of the countries history was early middle ages. 69.208.14.63 (talk) 13:31, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
Modern Mongolian alternative name is needless. Mongols appeared in 7th century. Shiwei was not in the Mongolian Plateau. This alternative name had no historical value. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 05:36, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Takabeg (talk) 11:26, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
I don't understand why are the Rouruans considered solely and undoubtly Mongolic in this article as if there exist a scientific consencus among scholars on this issue. They were, most probably, speakers of an extinct language unrelated to any of Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Samoyedic, Yeniseian etc. Please read those articles written by Alexander Vovin:
Once Again on the Ruan Ruan Language
Some Thoughts on The Origins of The Old Turkic 12-year Animal Cycle
This is old version. His massive deletion of useful contents must be reverted. One example of vandalism: [1]. The title of article is "Rouran Khaganate"!. Shame for wikipedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.160.3.227 (talk) 13:49, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Khanate is a small state. It is same with dukedom. (A duke...highest rank below the monarch). Khaganate is a larga state that governed by king. There is a big difference.
Stop vandalising! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.160.5.31 (talk) 00:43, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
This statement doesn't make any sense. All Xianbei are Donghu, who fled northeast after being defeated by Modu Chanyu. Saying that Tuoba were not Donghu would be groundbreaking research. I'm going to bet that the source was misinterpreted. For a source, how about any of these wikipedia pages or chinaknowledge.de 64.222.104.94 (talk) 15:57, 29 June 2017 (UTC)John Dee
@Erminwin: See this and my reason. That book is too general for expert claims/theories written in this article. Plus who is the author "Barbara A. West"? Is she a historian? --Wario-Man (talk) 06:06, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
Putting Avar dna here is confusing and misleading. Nothing more than fringy theory and an original research section. Beshogur (talk) 10:32, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
From the introduction: "The Rouran supreme rulers are noted for being the first to use the title of "khagan", having borrowed this popular title from the Xianbei." If they borrowed it from the Xianbei, the Xianbei necessarily used it first. IAmNitpicking (talk) 13:01, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
樓喜拜曰:「處可寒。」虜言「處可寒」,宋言「爾官家」也。
— Book of Song, vol. 96.
Lou [the envoy of the younger brother to T'u-yü-hun] was glad. He bowed and said: "Chu k'o han 處可寒". The barbarian words ch'u k'o han mean in the language of Song, 'Be it so, sire (爾官家)'.
— Pulleyblank, E. G. (1962) "The consonantal system of Old Chinese. Part II" pdf, Asia Major 9; p. 261 of 206‒65.
The Rouran supreme rulers are noted for being the first to use the title of "khagan", having borrowed this popular title from the Xianbei.to
The Rouran supreme rulers used the title of "khagan", a popular title already used by the Xianbei.Erminwin (talk) 17:06, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
@Yastanovog: You said you can always expand the first paragraph which negates a Rouran connection using better sources, but summarily deleting all opposing viewpoints in favor of Turkic nationalism goes against the principle of balance. Less nationalism, more balance please.
It doesn't makes sense because deleting your primary source about Avars, which doesn't even mention the Rouran isn't "nationalism". The other paragraph is literally unsourced original research also including fringe theories like Buyla inscription being Mongolic. Those have no place here. Beshogur (talk) 19:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Instead, Menander provides key indicators that through a process of elimination fairly convincingly brings us to the Rouran Khaganate, because there was no other equivalent hegemonic power on the Eastern Steppes.another issue, primary source, plus your analysis, which is an original research as well. You say
If you really feel the need for a source, thus you admit that you're doing WP:SYNTH. Perhaps add the sources and the quotes so we can see what it says.
Regarding the Buyla inscription I only said that the Mongolic interpretation was one of many possible interpretations.So you admit again.
So I would advise you not to delete it so quick. Instead, offer your own version and add it as a separate paragraph.I don't have "own version",
I won't attack it as original researchit is original research. Please read the rules before editing and reverting. Beshogur (talk) 09:59, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
which you should know in the back of your mind that you may not win? I am not trying to "win" something. Your contribution simply violated wikipedia rules as I told several times. Your own synthesis based on primary sources has no place here. Beshogur (talk) 12:12, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Could that just be "Asia"? At its greatest extent, the Rouran Khaganate seems to have held territory in both eastern and central Asia. IAmNitpicking (talk) 15:48, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
I removed a footnote due to OR. While the note contained some sources backing a few facts mentioned in it, the whole assumption that the Rouran ambassador was depicted in such way because of the actions of the Rouran Khagan is an idea of OP and so the whole thing is pure OR. For the same reason, the definition of the portrait as "caricatural" is also OR. Fries Montana (talk) 16:32, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
Two sources:
(1) Pohl, Walter (2018). The Avars A Steppe Empire in Central Europe, 567–822. Cornell University Press. p. 31. ISBN 9781501729409. & 2. Baumer, Christoph (2018). History of Central Asia, The: 4-volume Set. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 90. ISBN 9781838608682.
are cited for this statement (let's called it S):
The endonym Rouran itself is derived from the Xianbei slur Ruru or Ruanruan, meaning something akin to "wriggling worms".
However, source (1) does not back up S at all; as Walter (2018:31) writes:
Additionally, the Chinese often sought to translate names into their language, or replaced them with a similarly sounding Chinese word that seemed to fit: for instance, the Rouran were also called Ruanruan, "wriggling worms.
& in almost all likelihoods he means that the Chinese (including Sinicized Tuoba) distorted the Rouran' endonym Rouran into Ruanruan; not that Rouran is derived from Ruanruan.
Source (2) -Baumer (2018:90)- also does not back up S, as Baumer writes:
in Mongolia the tribal confederation of the Rouran, whose name derives from that of tribal father Ruru or Ruirui.50 The name Juan Juan was given to them by the Tuoba emperor Taiwudi, a derogatory pun meaning 'wriggling worms'.
However, let's examine the primary sources:
蠕蠕,東胡之苗裔也,姓郁久閭氏。始神元之末,掠騎有得一奴,髮始齊眉,忘本姓名,其主字之曰木骨閭。「木骨閭」者,首禿也。木骨閭與郁久閭聲相近,故後子孫因以為氏。木骨閭既壯,免奴為騎卒。穆帝時,坐後期當斬,亡匿廣漠谿谷間,收合逋逃得百餘人,依紇突隣部。木骨閭死,子車鹿會雄健,始有部眾,自號柔然,而役屬於國。後世祖以其無知,狀類於蟲,故改其號為蠕蠕。
— Weishu, "vol. 103, section Ruanruan".
蠕蠕姓鬱久閭氏。始神元之末,掠騎有得一奴,發始齊眉,忘本姓名,其主字之曰木骨閭。「木骨閭」者,首禿也。「木骨閭」與「鬱久閭」聲相近,故後子孫因以為氏。木骨閭既壯,免奴為騎卒。穆帝時,坐後期當斬,亡匿廣漠谿穀間,收合逋逃,得百餘人,依純突鄰部。木骨閭死,子車鹿會雄健,始有部眾,自號柔然。後太武以其無知,狀類於蟲,故改其號為蠕蠕。
— Beishi, "vol. 98, section Ruanruan".
My rough translation:
Rúrú / Ruánruán (蠕蠕), offspring of Dōnghú, surnamed Yùjiŭlǘ. At the beginning of the end of the Shényuán era, mounted raiders captured a slave: his hairline started at his eyebrow level; he had forgotten his original surname and name; so his master called him Mùgǔlǘ (木骨閭); as for Mùgǔlǘ (木骨閭), it means "bald-headed". Mùgǔlǘ (木骨閭) sounds similar to Yùjiŭlǘ (郁久閭), so his [Mùgǔlǘ's] descendants would use that as their surname. Mùgǔlǘ - because he was strong/was at least 30-year-old - was emancipated from slavery and became a cavalryman. During the reign of Emperor Mu, he [Mùgǔlǘ] tarried past the deadline and was sentence to death by beheading. He fled and hid among the vast desert's ravines and rivulets, then gathered a hundred or more other escapees; [they] then relied on the Hetulin (紇突隣) (WS) / Chuntulin (純突鄰) (BS) tribe. Mùgǔlǘ died, his son Chēlùhuì (車鹿會), who was virile and vigorous, began to gather the tribal multitude, [his / their] self-appellation Róurán (柔然); still he was a vassal / they were vassals of [our] state. Later on Emperor Shizu (WS) / Emperor Taiwu of Northern Wei (BS) found him/them to be ignorant and his/their appearance(s) similar to worms/insects; so he (Emperor Taiwu / Shizu) called him (Cheluhui) / them (the tribal multitude) Rúrú / Ruánruán (蠕蠕).
The wording 子車鹿會雄健,始有部眾,自號柔然
is vague: one can interpret 柔然 (Rouran) as the self-appellation of either the chief 車鹿會 (Cheluhui) or the tribal multitude (部眾). Let's say Rouran 柔然 was the self-appellation of Cheluhui 車鹿會, who is in almost all likelihoods "the tribal father Ruru or Ruirui" mentioned in Baumer (2018:90). Notwithstanding the reconstructed Weishu, Beishi clearly states that the self-appellation was Rouran 柔然, not Rúrú (茹茹 in Beiqishu, Zhoushu, Suishu) nor Ruìruì (芮芮 Nanqishu, Liangshu, Songshu). So while Baumer is (1) mistaken about "the tribal father Ruru or Ruirui" (Cheluhui's self-appellation was Rouran) & (2) seemingly thinks that Ruru & Ruirui were just transcriptions instead of deliberate distortions of Rouran by other Chinese-speaking historiographers, Baumers asserts nothing interpretable as The endonym Rouran itself is derived from the Xianbei slur Ruru or Ruanruan, meaning something akin to "wriggling worms".
I think statement S The endonym Rouran itself is derived from the Xianbei slur Ruru or Ruanruan, meaning something akin to "wriggling worms".
should be rewritten into The endonym Rouran (柔然) itself is distorted into Ruru or Ruanruan (蠕蠕), a Xianbei slur meaning something akin to "wriggling worms".
@Folly Mox:, @Morrisonjohn022:, @पाटलिपुत्र: etc. What do you think? Erminwin (talk) 19:58, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
used in Tuoba-Xianbei sources such as orders given by Emperor Taiwu of Northern Wei"; "
used in Tuoba–Xianbei sources" should suffice, although there's probably a secondary source that takes this at face value that could be cited instead to support the current wording.As to the ambiguity about who calls themselves 柔然, while the sentence itself can be read with some ambiguity, I think it's clear from context that "自號柔然" refers to the group as a whole. Between the bit about Taiwu coming up with 蠕蠕 and the next occurrence of the term 蠕蠕 in the Beishi text, there's nothing about the group taking on the self-appellation of its founder's son, but the next occurrence of 蠕蠕 is generations after Cheluhui's death, so it's clearly referring to the group by then. Footnote 3 in zh:s:魏書/卷103 (which comes from the editors of the modern standard Zhonghua Shuju edition of the Weishu, not zh-wikisource editors), specifically states 此族「自號柔然」, so clearly the Zhonghua Shuju editors read it as referring to the group. Stepping outside the text itself, it's unclear what cultural mechanism would lead to a circumstance where a group of people take on the surname referring to one individual, and then also adopt an endonym referring to his son. I acknowledge that this is possible.Pohl 2018 is inaccurate in using "translation" where "transliteration" is meant (how else would you write down a foreign word?), and it seems clear to me that 蝚蠕 and 蠕蠕 have their origins in some kind of racism or other cultural bias, because there's no good reason to bring the "insect" determinant into a demonym based on transliteration alone (footnote 3 in zh:s:魏書/卷103 agrees).I think the person who's mistaken here is Golden 2013, and I wonder if his claim is repeated in his book that followed his festschrift contribution we cite in the article. Although Grousset 1970 does specifically use the word "meaning" in describing 蠕蠕, it might be better to say "connoting the idea of" or something similar, since it is still a transliteration.User:Erminwin, what's Baumer 2018's source for note 50 on page 90? That might be helpful, unless it's one of the passages quoted above. Folly Mox (talk) 13:17, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
User:Erminwin , what's Baumer 2018's source for note 50 on page 90?
in Mongolia the tribal confederation of the Rouran [Róurán 柔然], whose name derives from that of tribal father Ruru [Rúrú 茹茹 in Beiqishu, Zhoushu, Suishu] or Ruirui [Ruìruì 芮芮 in Nanqishu, Liangshu, Songshu].50 The name Juan Juan [蠕蠕 Ruánruán / Rúrú] was given to them by the Tuoba emperor Taiwudi, a derogatory pun meaning 'wriggling worms'.
"that 茹茹 and 芮芮 are probably just competing transcriptions rather than deliberate distortions"of 柔然, I still think that Baumer (2018) can not be used as source for the statement:
The endonym Rouran itself is derived from the Xianbei slur Ruru or Ruanruan, meaning something akin to "wriggling worms".
The endonym Rouran (柔然) itself is distorted into Ruru or Ruanruan (蠕蠕), a Xianbei slur meaning something akin to "wriggling worms".
Vif12vf, Twg7s7h, can you two talk about this instead of edit warring the map situation back and forth? Folly Mox (talk) 17:10, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
The name of the Iranian Huns mentioned on this page is not mentioned in any historical article. While Huns is a general name given to nomadic peoples in the past, Iran is a geographical name and the geography of Iran has nothing to do with the Rouran government. For this reason, the word Iranian Huns should be deleted. I tried to delete it but I encountered illogical behavior of Iranian History account. Atrmiles (talk) 14:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)