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It's not from Dravidian 5.32.202.175 (talk) 04:29, 7 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

 Not done as the experts disagree with you - Arjayay (talk) 10:23, 7 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The word I have chosen is 'Dravidian', from Drāviḍa, the adjectival form of Draviḍa. This term, it is true, has sometimes been used, and is still sometimes used, in almost as restricted a sense as that of Tamil itself, so that though on the whole it is the best term I can find, I admit it is not perfectly free from ambiguity. It is a term which has already been used more or less distinctively by Sanskrit philologists, as a generic appellation for the South Indian people and their languages, and it is the only single term they ever seem to have used in this manner. I have, therefore, no doubt of the propriety of adopting it.

_ Robert Caldwell

It is said long back by the person who could not be so sure about it and not the person speaking the same language. So now we can define it properly as "Tamil is the south Indian Language" Bharathi Ponmudi (talk) 11:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello,

It seems a couple of users (@AleksiB 1945 & @Haoreima) have added the ethnonym infobox (see right) to this article, but as this is about the language and not Tamils, it doesn't feel appropriate here. Perhaps I'm wrong, but in the interest of avoiding an edit war perhaps we could discuss its inclusion here? I can't think of any other language articles with similar information included.

Warrenmck (talk) 21:10, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Warrenmck I added only once, thinking it might be helpful to readers. Maybe it's reverted or removed by someone else, maybe because my edit was not acceptable to him or her or them. So, to avoid edit conflict, I have already abstained myself from re-adding it to the article. So, there will be no question of edit warring from my side! Thanks! Haoreima (talk) 21:18, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Haoreima I should have been clearer there, I was referring to myself! I've removed it twice when two separate editors added it, no need to abstain from editing by any means. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some very good reason to have it in the article, and my belief that it maybe shouldn't be included isn't necessarily the correct one. Warrenmck (talk) 21:20, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I see two issues with the content of that infobox: 1. There is no overlap between the distribution of the ethnolinguistic group (the first three items) and the applicability of Tamiḻ Nāṭu. Using the latter term to include also the Tamil settlement area in Sri Lanka could be perceived as quite contentious. 2. I'm not sure if the infobox is meant for endonyms. In common English parlance, entries one to three would by simply Tamil(s). IMHO, this template is relevant in the first place where terms used in English are not self-explanatory. That's just me though.

To sum up: items one to three are fine if consensus emerges that we can use endonyms in the template, but item four (which is optional per the doc of the template) is very problematic in any case. –Austronesier (talk) 18:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Its used in Southern African languages' pages like Tswana, Tsonga and many others AleksiB 1945 (talk) 11:57, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Whether the template is used in a meaningful way in those other pages is something to be dicussed there. Dozens of them use the parameter |country= with entries that are not countries but areas better called 'heartland', 'homeland', 'spech area' etc. Again, what service do we proivde to our readers to present two or three endonyms (including inflection for number) at the very start of the article, with yet another box that interrupts the flow of reading between the introductory paragraph and the following text in mobile view? The infobox is placed in that position deliberately (which is why MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE is very explicit about not overloading it with detail), but all other boxes should be placed there with care and concern for our readers. In many pages, it can quite a pain to scroll through all these template boxes. –Austronesier (talk) 11:32, 30 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@RegentsPark It does seem difficult finding a source for this spelling but it is definitely used by the natives. You can see other articles like Thamizh that are based on this spelling. Would this news article be a good source? https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/chennai/tamil-nadu-government-spelling-change-6453894/ Jaiganesh.kumaran (talk) 16:03, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm not really sure since the article doesn't actually confirm that this is a spelling rather than an alternative name. However, if you re-insert it, I won't revert you.RegentsPark (comment) 16:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Thamizh" is very much an informal spelling that has no validity among scholars, because this spelling is an incorrect transliteration, along with "Tamizh" and "Thamil". There's no reason to have this rendering on the English encyclopedia. Chronikhiles ^(talk) 15:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Well 'Thamizh' makes more sense because 'Th' in this word is more similar to the pronunciation in words like 'Think' than 'Tin'. 'Zh' is kind of a bad convention, but since is used by the natives, I think it makes sense to include for completeness.

In Tamil script, itself, as used in the spellings of majority of English words:

T ~ ட்;

Th ~ த்.

In the systematic ISO-approved transcription, we do though use T for the 'th' sound and 'T with bottom dot' for an hard 'T' as used in English words, and that along with IPA shall be the official exact transcription. Main reason I want Thamizh here is so search engines will show it and I can use this spelling in my work. 'Tamil' is no more a correct transliteration than 'Thamizh'; it just came by convention and became the English spelling.

If majority of Tamils accept Thamizh as a correct spelling and becomes more widely used, you are obliged to add it here. Or if that does not suffice, then we really need a government order (well if Government of Tamil Nādu itself says to use it then you have to mention it. Unfortunately they are not too much worried, which also reflects in why place names are terribly spelt; Erode should really be spelt 'Eeroadu' so English people get it. Jaiganesh.kumaran (talk) 17:05, 2 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You say it yourself: if Thamzih becomes more widely used. Then and only then we may consider to give it a mention with due weight in the a prominent part of the article such as the introductory sentence. A "government order" won't change anything unless it has an actual impact on common usage among English speakers worldwide.

Main reason I want Thamizh here is so search engines will show it. Uhm, this is not the purpose of Wikipedia, in fact it's diametrically the opposite. Wikipedia reflects things as they are, not as people with particular interests want to promote them to appear (see WP:SOAPBOX).

Finally, note that the overwhelming majority of L1-speakers (+ competent L2-speakers) pronounces "th" as [θ]. Outside from South Asia, the "th" in "Thamizh" is simply counterintuitive. –Austronesier (talk) 22:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Okay due to your insistence I'm not going to revert back. I guess I can mention these spellings as informal alternatives in the Wiktionary page of the word. Jaiganesh.kumaran (talk) 05:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

> pronounces "th" as [θ]

Also accurate (I did hear how it sounds like) but I still think it is a better approximation even then. The Help: IPA/Tamil page seems to kind of not great English approximated words as examples. Jaiganesh.kumaran (talk) 05:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Main reason I want Thamizh here is so search engines will show it and I can use this spelling in my work." You want to edit an encylopedia for your personal reasons? I'm sure that's against the guidelines. I also don't think the government of Tamil Nadu has any authority to enforce this on Wikipedia. Chronikhiles ^(talk) 10:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Shouldn't the IPA of Tamil be /t̪amɪɻ/ instead of /t̪amiɻ/? If you listen to the audio and check the English approximation on the Tamil IPA page, it fits the bill of an /ɪ/ instead of an /i/.

I am not Tamil, so take of that as you will. Nirbodha (talk) 03:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It isn't /ɪ/ since that's not a phoneme of Tamil. Phonemically it is /i/. It does sound to my ear an awful lot like [ɪ]. And having looked at the spectrograph it is, of course, somewhere in between, but closer to [ɪ] by my judgement. AquitaneHungerForce (talk) 22:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Would it then be of benefit to replace the recording with a more phonologically appropriate version? Nirbodha (talk) 06:25, 19 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]