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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 20 December 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | Technate was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 06 November 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Technocracy Incorporated. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
![]() | Technocracy Study Course was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 26 October 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Technocracy Incorporated. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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This article seems to have been written by its subject.
It's not a bad article, but the adverb "quickly" seems POV in all uses.
Taking decades to amass "thousands" of members is no great accomplishment.
24.21.189.221 15:06, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Uhhh.... World of Darkness... Mage... this is fake, right?
I fail to see a substantial difference between the two articles. Furthermore, the fuzzy line between them only confuses readers. You even have a picture of the Technocracy Incorporated sign as the first image. Let's clean everything up (again) and cite some bloody sources. 154.5.41.198 04:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
There is no real connection between Dr. Andrew Wallace's group the Network of European Technocrats and Technocracy Incorporated Further more there is no real Technocracy movement outside of the North America. Isenhand or Technocrate or Andrew Wallace is promoting the idea of a movement because he has written a book about it as such http://web.telia.com/~u11319012/index.htm Andrew Alexander Wallace This book promotes the idea that his group of which he is the director (Network of European Technocrats) is a part of the Technocracy movement. Technocracy Incorporated states over and over that it is not associated with any other groups in the U.S. or in Europe. This then is a blatant conflict of interest for an editor here who is directing web traffic to self published articles en.technocracynet.eu/index.php Network of European Technocrats - News. www.lulu.com/content/750510 Technocracy: Building a new sustainable society for a post carbon world by Andrew Wallace (Book) in Engineering ---- This is another sales site set up by Dr. Andrew Wallace, Isenhand or Technocrate here to promote his book.skip sievert (talk) 03:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Removing links to expanded information.. and only preserving links and information to certain sources such as Network of European Technocrats narrows things down to.. in my opinion.. information that is contrived to get people to end up on that particular Network of European Technocrats website.skip sievert (talk) 15:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Editor removed links and expanded information again. Restored broadened explanation. skip sievert (talk) 17:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
That article should not be merged it should be deleted (Technocratic movement]]. It originally was a vehicle for this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Network_of_European_Technocrats Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Network of European Technocrats - That article should go into an Afd.. because the whole concept of it does not make sense. It was originally written by the person that originated the NET article to claim there even was a Technocracy movement connected outside of North America which there is not.. at least not connected as to the same ideas. skip sievert (talk) 02:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Added a linked citation and reference to Willard Gibbs material. Stream lined article, shortening some non cited material. Made some syntax and sentence structure more readable.skip sievert (talk) 15:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
At this point it makes sense not to merge the two articles. Each article is playing a different role. The TechInc article talks directly about the focus of that organization and relates directly to the different people involved in the history of it.
The Technocracy movement article gets into the precedent cultural/scientific culture from the 19th century and the early 20th century and gets into how all those things combined to produce what we know as the Technocracy movement in the 1918 to 1934 period that is still around.
One is dealing directly with that group information (TechInc) and the other dealing with the movement of social scientists and engineers and others that went through a period of attempting to think up alternative constructs for society (TechMovement).
The period from the late 19th cent. and the inception of Technocracy Incorporated (TechInc.) along with the other attempts by various people to start related social movements (TechMovement) is now pretty well covered in depth and cited and referenced in the Technocracy movement article... so now it makes a good stand alone article with a different perspective than the Technocracy Incorporated article because it gets into the antecedents and that is a broad ... and long topic. No doubt it can still be improved with more citations and references. skip sievert (talk) 14:27, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Energy accounting section reference now pointing to Fezer article.
Added another reference link to Ivie, Wilton A Place to Live: 1955 Technocracy Digest skip sievert (talk) 00:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Added this reference link on history.
Stabile, Donald R. "Veblen and the Political Economy of the Engineer: the radical thinker and engineering leaders came to technocratic ideas at the same time," American Journal of Economics and Sociology (45:1) 1986, 43-44. skip sievert (talk) 20:00, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Made the beginning any way of a lead section for the article.... skip sievert (talk) 15:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
lead section could really do with reducing down to two or three paragraphs
--Firebladed (talk) 16:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Fireblade... I was just about to move the company box up as you did. I was thinking of editing the beginning down a bit also... but the basic info in there now is pretty good. It is just a guideline as to length.... and really it is not so terribly long presently. skip sievert (talk) 16:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
The history for this page ends in 1934. Are there no further events in this organization's history? --TarrVetus (talk) 20:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Your right. I added this below into the history section, based on the information from their website and some other places. I also added the reference citation to a copy of their trend events publication in the history section and publications section.
Added bit, Today as they have done continuously since their inception, this groups members partake in discussion groups, publish quarterly magazines, and advocate for the original concepts of a Thermoeconomics based scientific social design. They also publish a monthly newsletter called Trend Events http://www.technocracy.org/Trendevents/June_2008_TRENDEVENTS%5B1%5D%5B2%5D%5B2%5D.pdf skip sievert (talk) 02:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
User:Skipsievert, I am rather disappointed at your editquette in this revert. Specifically:
For these reasons, I have re-reverted. This article should be improved by making it more encyclopedic; advocacy like "unique" and "ensure our survival", vagaries like "science applied to society", and buzzwords like "scientific social design", should be expunged and replaced with more factual, neutral details. ~ Jafet Speaker of many words 12:56, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
PS: I may have introduced some factual errors; I won't object to anyone fixing those. ~ Jafet Speaker of many words 13:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The use of energy as a unifying concept for social, political and economic analysis reached a zenith with the technocratic movement in the USA and Canada during the 1930s. Led by the flamboyant and energetic Howard Scott, the Technocracy movement began in 1918 as a group called the Technical Alliance. The Alliance conducted an industrial survey of North America in which economic parameters were measured in energy units rather than dollars. Although the Alliance lasted only a few years, the Depression provided fertile ground for the re-emergence of the technocratic movement which used depressed economic conditions as a rallying point for their call for a complete overhaul of existing economic and political institutions. In 1921, Howard Scott and others formed Technocracy, Inc., and in conjunction with the Industrial Engineering Department at Columbia University, began an empirical analysis of production and employment in North America in energy units. The association with a prestigious university like Columbia combined with Scott’s flamboyant relationship with the press made Technocracy internationally famous.
For that we should reach a consensus about value, by weighting advisedly all the variables. Some idea like that certainly has occurred as soon the Law of Conservation of Energy was established in 1870. I cannot perform a thorough search, but I would suggest a starting point in the writings of Stuart Mill, Spencer and Balfour Stewart.
Explicitly, a similar idea occurred to Frederick Soddy in 1922. He wrote that the price of a merchandise reflect, directly or not, the energy invested in its production. (Today, he would say available energy). The same idea was proposed by Howard Scott during the Great Depression of the 30's. And now it surfaces with the ecological movement since the 60's, while emphasizing the erroneous use of planet's resources. An indirect consequence of this idea is the analysis of industrial processes by net energy use, taking into account all the energy involved since the extraction of natural resources and the "primary" energy. This approach is gaining adepts.
Thermodynamic and economic optima do not coincide, except in very few cases. Berry et al. have shown that the two optima do coincide in the case of a free market in which the only "scarce" resource is available energy (or utilizable work). That means that labor, capital, inputs, etc. should all be for free.
Here is a current copy of the intro. Would any one like to suggest changes..? or is this agreeable?
Technocracy Incorporated proposes a fundamental change in both the economy and in forms of governance in North America. Technocracy Technate design is claimed by TechInc to be a science applied to society method, using the metric of energy and a new method of social operation. Today this groups members partake in discussion groups, publish quarterly magazines and a monthly newsletter called Trend Events, and advocate for the original concepts of a Thermoeconomics based scientific social design, presented in their publication Technocracy Study Course.Authenticity Official Technocracy Incorporated Website stating their authenticity
With Peak Oil, and the Global Warming crisis now developing, technate advocates contend that it is becoming ever more apparent that our present form of economy, a Price system, and our present form of governance, a political system, are structurally incapable of taking effective action. Technocracy technate design, is the possible 'Plan B,' according to them, for enabling a continuance of the technology, that will ensure our survival. Technocracy Incorporated proposes a non political governmental system using Energy Accounting in a Non-market economics method based on science principles. skip sievert (talk) 15:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Who when and what is already in the side bar. Very easy to see and read. Clears things up? :After a paragraph break, go into their plans for world domination (this "Technate"), the defining characteristic of the organization: I guess I will not be taking you seriously any more until you present better, more informed information. What has this to do with any thing? What are you talking about? Pretty obvious you know nothing in terms of what that groups focus is. They do not propose world domination my friend. North America only is the design. Your above intro. is not written well as to subject .... Sorry. It does not advocate a that advocates the establishment of a technocracy, a government of technical and scientific experts, to govern the continent of North America. as you say. It proposes a Technate... not a Technocracy. That words has gotten multiple definitions since 1934 when they used it. Technocracy is the name of a group.... that proposes a Technate (the one in the last two design chapters of the Technocracy Study Course). Technocracy Incorporated more particularly proposes it. You have left out the most basic aspects... energy accounting... this is the basis of the idea they have and thermoeconomics... and an administration or scientific social design. This is the very basis. Please do a little more research... On the plus side the beginning is more focused now. So that is good. Rewrite what you advocate below as an edit... and we can edit further. skip sievert (talk) 16:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Skip, You've said here that "...Technocracy Incorporated and its program.. is perhaps the most important social movement of the 20th. century in my opinion... it influenced and continues to influence many... and was the fastest growing social movement of the early to mid 1930's." skip sievert (talk) 14:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC) And this is the general position presented in this article.
But where is the actual evidence that TI has been so important and influential? Perhaps there are some New York Times articles and scholarly books by disinterested historians about TI? Many more third party publications are needed to support what is being said in this article. Sources close to the subject are not very helpful and I've tagged the TI Publications section as being an advertisement. Johnfos (talk) 09:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Following on from what I've just said, I'm adding an advertising tag to the top of the article. It is not only Technocracy Incorporated that is being promoted, but the "Technocracy Study Course", which is mentioned at least three times in the article, twice in bold type. In fact, there are a great many articles on WP which seem to be promoting this course: [1]. Johnfos (talk) 19:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Attempts have been made to introduce the following material into the front end of several articles. I've moved the paragraph here because it introduces some material that in part seems to be straight copy from a self-published source. The content is also incorrect because the Technical Alliance actually disbanded in 1921, as the TA article shows.
The group's aim was to design a new system of production and distribution (energy accounting) based for continental North America that would provide a better standard of living while conserving non-renewable resources. According to their published information this would ensure ‘an economy of abundance’.[1] The Technical Alliance was renamed Technocracy Incorporated in 1930 and in 1932 its basic findings were published. In the fall of 1933, Technocracy was incorporated in New York State as a “nonsectarian, educational-research membership organization” (Technocracy Digest, No. 231, pp 4).[2]
We need to use reliable sources such as published books, on Wikipedia, rather than self-published websites. Books which are readily available include:
-- Johnfos (talk) 22:31, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
This article is about an organization, and that organization has a website that publishes information related to themselves. So, it is important to include information from them to further explain the purposes of the group and their history as a movement. Other third party sources should be included to further strengthen the information.
As far as the Technical Alliance disbanded in 1921 goes. That information is incorrect. Technocracy Inc. material states the organization was still researching and only became known as Technocracy in 1930 as is shown in their archives and some news articles(e.g. Here and Here). Then because of publicity and many people claiming to speak of behalf of "Technocracy" they incorporated in order to protect their material and assume responsibility of their real claims instead of the misinterpretation and misinformation that had arisen during that time.(e.g. Here and Here) Here is another third party source [2] that confirms that Technocracy Inc. was a continuation from the Technical Alliance from a notable science magazine called the New Scientist. Basically, technocrats began an "energy survey of North America" since 1918 and since then have been doing so in various names until they finally incorporated.
I would tend to believe information coming from Howard Scotts organization and a notable New Scientist article than non notable published books. Also, some of the books you provide are pretty badly written and chronologically a real headache to get through. Also throw in the various derogatory statements presented in the books and false information. Really weird and strange to say the least. The books you provide have some great information, but some of it is wrong and should be carefully included in the article. I have reworded and reinserted the disputed material as well as updated the references to meet Wikipedia standards. 68.226.118.248 (talk) 02:27, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Does anybody know the importance of this paragraph? It doesn't make sense together. Nor does the second sentence even appear relevant to the first. I also seems like an opinion. Does any body know what fascists implications it's referring to? In the Technocracy article it tributes the decline of the movement to the New Deal and this is supposed to be about a group.
As with Technocracy movement, anything that could be construed as criticism of TI, no matter how well sourced, has been removed from the page. Much unsourced material, and material from unreliable sources, has been added. Surepost.com, for example, is not a WP:Reliable source. All of this has left the article unbalanced and not neutral. Johnfos (talk) 18:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the disputed Burris material, and material based on unreliable sources such as surepost.com. The New Scientist source is reliable but what it says about the Technical Alliance conflicts with some other sources, so we need to discuss how to best incorporate it. Johnfos (talk) 01:27, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
Johnfos, It would be more constructive if you didn't delete so much material without a discussion on it. The Social Security Administrations government website information along with the another reference written by Raymond Frogner of University of Alberta and the New Scientist article contain pretty interesting and relevant information. Also deleting the official website doesn't seem to help portray yourself as presenting a neutral point of view.( I will restore the officially listed website as Technocracyinc.org) as is shown here[7] This is very very peculiar behavior especially coming from a person who has contributed on Wikipedia for such a long time. I think after the information you have presented on the Administrators noticeboard, you really have a personal vendetta against another editor who may have been a Technocracy Advocate or had a personal stake in it. You have obviously had some issues with those other editors. I'm just getting the impression that this information you have admitted to is seemingly clouding your judgement on these articles. Googlesalot (talk) 01:02, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Quite a substantial part of this article is repeated in Technocracy and Technocracy movement. There's not enough here for a stand alone article. I propose that this article be merged and then redirected to Technocracy movement. LK (talk) 09:56, 4 October 2011 (UTC)