This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: |
|||||||||||||
|
I always thought one of the major themes in the Covenant series was the corrupting influence of power. The first series is based on the fact of Covenant's power, which he can't use without creating worse problems than already exist (use of the white gold will free Foul from the arc...). And the second series is the same--the venom put into Covenant makes him unable to use the power again without severe consequences. To me, that is the primary theme of the entire series. Pcrh 21:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I felt middlenamefranks critique is a more truthful and concrete review than the guys on the main page, thank you middlenamefrank They call me Mister Tibbs (talk) 16:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
The comment about seeing different things is absolutely true. I had always thought that the novels were Covenant's own self-hatred writ large on the canvass of the Land - itself a metaphor for Covenant's own leprosy-ravaged body. Odd. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 19:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
A major theme that Stephen R. Donaldson consistently illustrates in each novel of the First, Second and Last Chronicles is the innate perilousness of exercising power, with two accompanying aspects. First, almost any exercise of power unleashes unintended and lasting secondary effects. Second, the wielder's level of self-awareness and intent is directly correlated with the positive or negative results of his, her or its exercise of power. High Lord Mhoram's rumination near the beginning of "The Power That Preserves" illustrates the inherent conundrum of power: "He could taste in his own mouth the desperation which had led High Lord Kevin to Kiril Threndor and the Ritual of Desecration. Power was dreadful and treacherous. When it was not great enough to accomplish its wielder's desires, it turned against the hands which held it. High Lord Elena's fate only repeated the lesson of Kevin Landwaster; he had possessed far more power than the new Lords could ever hope for, now that the Staff of Law was gone; and all his might had achieved nothing but his own ineluctable despair and the ruin of the Land. Mhoram feared to share that danger by revealing his secret. He was appalled to think he was in such peril himself."
Numerous examples reinforce the first aspect of the perilous of power (i.e., unintended and lasting secondary effects). The Haruchais' Vow to Lord Kevin unleashed vast Earthpower, unintentionally imbuing the 500 Bloodguard with a form of immortality lasting thousands of years. Covenant's bargain with the Ranyhyn unintentionally tied them to the Land for decades, preventing them from escaping the ravages Lord Foul's preternatural winter.
Likewise, Donaldson highlights many instances of the second aspect of the perilousness of power (i.e., the level of the wielder's self-awareness leading to positive or negative results). One particularly obvious example is the emotionally conflicted High Lord Elena's breaking of the Law of Death to summon dead High Lord Kevin from his grave to oppose Lord Foul. But there are countless other examples. On the positive side, High Lord Mhoram's internal enlightenment allows him to effectively oppose Satansfist's tactics during the siege of Revelstone and Thomas Covenant's final exercise of power at the end of White Gold Wielder incarnates enlightenment's ability to negate even Lord Foul's white-gold induced earth-shattering power. On the negative side we can appreciate the corrupting influence of power on the hopelessly un-self-aware cavewight Drool Rockworm and numerous ill effects conjured by the terminally corrupt Kasreyn of the Gyre.
Tom Snerdley (talk) 07:04, 30 June 2013 (UTC) Tom Snerdley
Fantastic viewpoints guys, wThey call me Mister Tibbs (talk) 16:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC)hen I first read these books I was able to see Conenants disease in so many there people different problems, despair is in all addictions, victims of any sort, also self hate, but i couldn't begin to say anything as good as the stuff above peeps have.
I'm just wondering (in the nicest possible way) why this page exists, when the same material is covered in Stephen_R._Donaldson. Surely the wiki does not need both? Nevilley
I think so. It allows more space for the world of TC, and allows direct redirects. (I actually came here, because I needed a link to a SF book where Giants are friendly, for the Mythology Giants page) - Marco V
Btw, TC did have leprosy in the other wolrd, but it was cured by the "woundclay" (I read a translation, don't know the original english world). Soon after he realised he was cured, he raped Lena.
I'd like to start working on doing a little expanding. Major characters, races, etc., but I'm waiting until I finish rereading the 1st and 2nd Chronicles.--Barry 18:30, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
fwiw - I think this material belongs here too. Wiki is becoming a store of anything/everything. What a nice "re-living" of these books for me, 20 years removed from when I read them, some of whose scenes still stand out in my mind today (e.g., "Nom"). I might someday have though of doing a general net search on them and may have found the "official" pages; but while on Wiki I am much more inclined to mine past read books, visited places, etc.
Dude! Don't entionmay the andgorgonsay!
To whomsoever posted the pig-latin...HAH! I #@%&$!* love it! (...sorry to edit and not contribute, but hey, I gotta give props!...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.50.52.85 (talk) 04:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I'd do this myself, but haven't read the book so can't be certain of the accuracy of the article. JulesH 19:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
((supportvote)) - as there is little in the main article so far - :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 13:03, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
As you might be able to guess, I'm a fan of the Chronicles. These articles seem like they could use better formatting and arrangement, and I'm willing to help. I'd prefer to avoid treading on any toes, despite the "be bold" admonishment.
My ideal would be an article for every Covenant book, but that might not be justified given Donaldson's small following. I'd settle for a detailed seperate article on each "Chronicles" set (first, second, and last). Naturally, the information could then be removed from the article on Mr. Donaldson himself, and replaced with a link to the proper articles.
Are there any comments, or objections to my going ahead with this idea? -Kasreyn 08:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, a different section for each of the series and/or books would be nice. Furthermore, caesures should certainly be moved into the article - if there are no separate articles for each book, why have one for a term from one of the books? -RetardudGenius 18:26, 04 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to chip in, I came across this page and was surprised that the first chronicle has a page per book (and the first book of the third chronicle) but the second chronicle has only entries for each book on the page (and not in hugely less detail than the single book pages) and no individual pages. I would at least consider adding a redirect from a page called, for instance White Gold Wielder to this page - but separate pages per book would be better. I'll do this unless anyone more 'owning' of the page wants to --Mortice 16:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Should something be added about the words of power? (You know, "Melenkurion abatha! Duroc minas mil khabaal!")
Must we really have those godawful covers by Darrel K. Sweet on the article? If I remember correctly, even Donaldson himself has joined in the general disgust over their ugliness. Besides, those editions are out of print as far as I know. Covers of the new paperback edition - with the ring - would definitely be easier on the eyes. Kasreyn 22:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry guys but these are the covers I grew up reading. I don't object if someone has the new bookscovers and wants to scan them in. I think we should leave them until then. FrankWilliams 20:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd would tend to agree that the orignal covers were something I grew up with and should remain in the article. However, why not also include the currently printed covers with them. Coradon
Is anyone familiar enough with the Elohim (they are mentioned under giants, and are featured in the second chronicles linden avery series) to write a race article for them? They are missing. I would then be able to post a link to the Chronicles on the Elohim article, as I do believe they deserve mention. Consider that one was quite essential to reforming the staff of law. Tyciol 17:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
We should include the important locations, with a description of them and perhaps their role in the story. Though I imagine that pages will be setup with a synopsis for each of the books, I feel that seperate pages for the various location will flesh out more of the background of each book. Currently I can see adding pages for:
Revelstone
Mount Thunder/Kiril Threndor
Trothguard/Revelwood
Landsdrop
Mithil Stonedown
Coercri
Foul's Creche
Kevin's Watch
Grimmerdhore/Morrinmoss/Garroting Deep
Andelain
etc etc
Granted there is no reason to nickle and dime it with every place mentioned in the Chronicles, but some of the important ones should have more detailed info. Coradon
I am currently trawling through the Covenant works in particular as time allows trying to edit The Land (fiction) Help is welcome. Feel free to leave notes and ideas on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Loyola/Covenant/ Loyola 11:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
There is another article on wikipedia that deals with this. Perhaps a cross-link or merge? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.228.195.207 (talk) 20:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Why does the article call the Demondim semi-corporeal and link them with undead? Does this come from the 2004 book? Did I miss some other reference? Dan 23:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Was there any information released concerning what the 3rd,4th,5th and 6th wards were, and where they were located? Thats been one of my main questions I've had over the last 20 years. Has anyone ever done some fan fiction concerning them? Coradon 15:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
he didn't even bother bringing the wards up in the final chronicles; the only nods to any kind of lore are that he (1) drags in one more absurdly-powerful-yet-with-a-profound-weakness 'race' {the Insequent), (2) has Linden seek deeper understanding from Caerroil Wildwood (twice), (3) has Jeremiah realize suru-pa-maerl and anundivian yajna out of nowhere, and (4) has Linden learn the missing seventh Word of Power. okay, the nifty (5) is that we actually get to 'see' something the Viles left behind (other than the ur-viles and waynhim)... Dunno about fanfic; i barely have time to read the "professional" stuff in the first place! 71.212.81.117 (talk) 20:14, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm not certain, since it has been several years since I closely read all the books, but I do seem to recall someone saying (quite possibly gibbon na-mhoram) that after Covenant left the land in "The Power that Preserves" the lords DID find 2 or 3 more wards but just put them away because they didn't follow the teachings of Berek halfhand any longer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.202.76.126 (talk) 07:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Image:StephenDonaldson TheRunesOfTheEarth.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 04:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
"It has a similarly complicated relationship with The Lord of the Rings."
Other than both being High Fantasy and featuring a very important ring, I don't see it. Indeed, Donaldson has said that TCTC needs the ring more than LOTR does: Covenenant has an emotional connection to it as his wedding ring, it wouldn't have made any difference to Frodo if there was "one 'amulet' to rule them all".
Maybe if the author had included a bit of justification I'd be okay with the statement, but as it stands I think it should be deleted.--(unsigned comment by User:195.92.206.243)
Isn't the cover shown for "Runes of the Earth" just the draft-stage book cover? As far as I know, that one was never used for the actual release - can anyone confirm? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-film.html?2004-12/17/10.00.film —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.69.109.3 (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
This page does not have a list of major characters. The "Peoples and Creatures" section is not that specific (at least, it has not been to this point). I recently removed a Berek paragraph on these grounds, but it was a nice summary of him, so I place it here for safekeeping should such a section be deemed necessary here on the main series page.
"Berek Halfhand Also known as: Lordfatherer, Earthfriend, Giantfriend, Heartthew. He He created the Lords system to rule the Land and was the original High Lord. Like Thomas Covenant, Berek was missing several fingers on one hand, though his were lost in battle. He was the first human to become sensitive to the earthpower in the Land. He used it to defeat the corrupt kingdom that was destroying the forests of the Land. During that war, he called forth the Fire Lions (beasts of earthpower resembling lava) from Mount Thunder (as did Covenant). He created the Staff of Law from the One Tree."
Carboncopy 19:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
"Many elements of the story correspond to those of Richard Wagner's epic "Ring Cycle", but with inverted values." Which elements are these? Which values? Apart from the ring and perhaps the breaking of Wotan's spear I can't think of any. Cavort (talk) 13:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Donaldson speaks directly (in the preface to The Real Story)about how his "Gap" books are based on Wagner's ring trilogy. I do not believe the Covenant books have anything to do with Wagner or the Ring saga. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.144.209.129 (talk) 01:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The image Image:StephenDonaldson FatalRevenant.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --09:08, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The Stonedownors always reminded me a bit of Dwarves, and I considered the Woodhelvennin to be similar to Elves.
Okay, there are many differences - possibly the most basic of which is that Dwarves and Elves are races different from Men, whereas Stonedownors and Woodhelvennin are Men with special inclination and powers.
But nevertheless, I was surprised that this question was not yet raised on this page. Am I the only one who's thinking in this direction?
(Btw: I have definitely never read a more fascinating description of "special stone powers" than in TCTC 1!) Schellhammer (talk) 12:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Should a paragraph on the name "Thomas Covenant" be added to the article (or another page, like the article on the people of the land)? I think the selection of "Thomas" as a first name is no coincidence but is linked to Doubting Thomas. Any suggestions on the surname? Schellhammer (talk) 13:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
cov·e·nant (kv-nnt) n. 1. A binding agreement; a compact. See Synonyms at bargain. 2. Law a. A formal sealed agreement or contract. b. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract. 3. In the Bible, God's promise to the human race.
Donaldson didn't just chose this name arbitrarily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.196.223.103 (talk) 18:01, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
If you had Donaldson mentioning this fact with references, I believe it would be well worth to put it in, but at the moment all we have is YOUR viewpoint, as the person above rightly says "this isn't what we do here" They call me Mister Tibbs (talk) 17:06, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Gee, for a series which has NO SOURCED POSITIVE REVIEWS, the details of the series are quite thoroughly covered. i added a link to a book which did give the book credit. I think the idea on WP is to report on the coverage of a subject, not create fan pages. Did Locus, interzone, NYT, anyone, write so extensively about the plot, themes, characters? most of this is unsourced. (sorry for the shouting, just gets to me sometimes).Mercurywoodrose (talk) 08:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
A related article has been deleted because it did not cite sources, but the contents were preserved at User:The Land/The Land (fiction). Some of that information could be used to improve this article, if properly referenced. Goustien (talk) 19:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
I also added a section on Motifs and Symbols that I thought was fairly uncontroversial, but it was deleted. It was not meant to be "original research." The problem is that not that much has been published on the Chronicles so one cannot refer only to published work. I guess that means that no literary interpretation of these works can be offered here, even one that would seem plausible to most readers? That means the page will have to remain quite minimal. User:jjdavenport99 —Preceding undated comment added 06:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. UtherSRG (talk) 20:47, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever → The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant – The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is the correct title of the entire ten-novel series. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, The Unbeliever refers only to the original trilogy. (In case anyone is wondering, the official name of the second trilogy is The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, while the last four books are referred to as The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant – neither have the Unbeliever part.) Flax5 (talk) 17:27, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
There is a seperate wikipedia article for "high" fantasy and having read the books listed in this article, I disagree with that characterization for a big number of authors/stories. Thomas Covenant enters a different world only when his physical body experiences severe trauma - the same can be said of katherine kerr's deverry characters - which are also on wikipedia as high-fantasy even though they don't satisfy that definition. tracing the backlinks doesn't provide a good reason to categorize either in either direction, so what's up? I really loved raymond feist's magician duology too but it was never by any means characterized as "high fantasy" when pug or tomas entered the tsuranuanni. someone is trying to pull a fast one here. at least three articles do not belong under the same category as the lord of the rings and the chronicles of narnia.75.134.26.34 (talk) 06:48, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
References
It would be enormously helpful if this article had some basic introductory material - a somewhat detailed plot synopsis of the entire series, perhaps a brief section about the writing and publication, etc? For someone who doesn't know anything about this series, this article offers almost no help, and the material the article does choose to cover is very poorly organized. 12.216.211.2 (talk) 20:55, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I've several criticisms for this. One MAJOR criticism is that it barely mentions Covenant's leprosy. This is a MAJOR motivation for his internal conflicts and ignoring it is unsupportable - risible actually. I think it also should be noted that while the date in the "real world" isn't clear, by the time Lord Foul's Bane was published in 1977, leprosy was, contrary to the narrative, curable. I think that should be mentioned, if for no other reason than the myth that it isn't still lingers. Second, I am going to change the (single!) mention of the rape, which claims the victim was a "young woman" to "a 15 year old girl". Clearly, the fact that it was not only an act of violent rape, but was of a (virgin) child is significant (in our cultural context). Third, the incessant questioning by Covenant of the "dream status" of his experiences in the Land is ridiculous. No dreams have logical continuity (over hours and days, weeks and months) in my experience, how about yours? He is clearly consciously experiencing a "reality" rather than a dream state in which the physics is amorphous. Fourth, the Land is NOT a "world". It is a region of what the characters call the "Earth". Fifth, the similarities between Donaldson's Land and Middle Earth approach plagiarism. Compare the Ramen with the Rohan, or the tentacled "lurker" in the swamp with the one in the pond/lake before the gates of Moria, the tree cities, and numerous other implausible "coincidences".71.30.36.178 (talk) 04:37, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
In several places there are calls for "sources". Aren't the sources for creatures and events in fiction novels, the novels themselves?
Since, for example, Donaldson invented "Cavewights" as creatures in these novels, and such creatures exist nowhere outside of these novels, what other "source" would you cite for the definition of what they are, than the novels themselves? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 00:43, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree, the pedantic banner, "This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (May 2009) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)", is unnecessary, the ten books about which the article is written are sufficient 'source' and asking for citations beyond the books is ridiculously pedantic. 93.155.220.206 (talk) 17:56, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template ((source check))
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:34, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Types of mythological or fantastic beings in contemporary fiction is a page of, well, fantasy series (movie, TV, written, whatever) and the assorted mythological and/or fantastic critters they contain. This series would probably qualify. Anyone care to add it? Tamtrible (talk) 09:35, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
I have removed both 'Arc of the Plot' and 'Symbolism and Motifs'. I get that these are pretty nifty topics to muse on, and the sections read like someone's high school lit project. That said, this is all uncited, and we cannot use the supposition of an editor making rather extraordinary claims without referenced support. We do not create; we collate. And paraphrase. The info must stay our until it is supported by numerous sources (to avoid giving undue weight to a single reference). Thoughts? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:25, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
The citation of this WA Senior volume seems dubious at best. Even with extensive searching, I could find little information on Senior outside of this volume and a single other journal published article.
Furthermore, reading the synopsis of the book from Kent State University Press, quotes such "as an extensive introduction to the fantasy genre in which W.A. Senior eloquently defends fantasy against charges of being mere escapism, or simply juvenile, and not warranting serious critical considerations," and "Donaldson has cerated an important contribution to the canon because of his serious intent and adult concerns, his powerful mythopoesis, and his manipulation of the conventions of epic fantasy," (Typo original to the synopsis), would suggest that the author was a Donaldson fan with a chip on his shoulder. The addition of "two illuminating interviews with Donaldson" in the appendix backs up this claim.
Remove it, nothing but in-group puffery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.98.232.147 (talk) 18:09, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
IDK how this might fit in, but the unsympathetic character thing is also true of Donaldon's other series, the Gap books. I don't recall a single character in them that was very likeable. 70.77.20.244 (talk) 01:00, 15 December 2022 (UTC)