Please hide the trypophobia inducing pictures

As someone with a severe case of trypophobia, I came to wikipedia to extract some information that might be helpful for me. I guess that's the case with most people suffering from any kind of phobia. Let me just say this: It does absolutely not help if the first thing you see on a wiki page is a picture that triggers your phobia. Please show some courtesy and put all the pictures at the end of the article with a disclaimer that warns people from scrolling down too far - or find a more sophisticated solution where one has to click the picture to see it. IMHO this should be a rule for any kind of content that's related to phobia or showing otherwise disturbing content. I'll personally not be editing this article for obvious reasons. 212.63.83.45 (talk) 15:02, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, IP. I also have trypophobia and I understand what you mean, although the image (not images) in question doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to; this is because I've been exposed to it so many times (which is akin to exposure therapy). But because we are an encyclopedia and readers who don't have trypophobia will want to understand what induces it, it's felt that an image that is known to induce it should be somewhere in the article. I don't see how having the image farther down will help, considering that those who read past the lead (introduction) will also come across it and, if those readers have trypophobia (as they likely will since it seems that most readers who visit this article have it and visit it to understand it), they will also be triggered by the image.
That stated, whether or not to include the image has been discussed before. At Talk:Trypophobia/Archive 1#discussion (in 2013), we can see that Robert McClenon (the closer) stated, "There was no consensus on removing the image, but the image has been hidden, and there has been no recent request for exposing the image." At Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 122#Images on phobia articles (in 2015), consensus seemed to be for not including phobia images in phobia articles, especially the Trypophobia article. Ian.thomson, for example, stated, "The policy WP:IAR is there to say 'you don't need to apply WP:NOTCENSORED when doing so involves trolling the readers.' There is a difference between censoring articles to accommodate chosen beliefs and not taking an action that obviously is going to cause a significant portion of the target audience medical issues (even if those issues are psychosomatic, they're still medical issues). Going out of one's way to include triggers in articles on phobias is WP:DICKish and WP:POINTy. [...] WP:NOTCENSOR has been seen, see WP:REHASH and explain how inserting phobic stimuli into the article on the phobia itself does not go against WP:DBAJ. We are not here to decide which phobias are real, only note which ones are notable, and note what scientists have to say about it. You have yet to explain how not causing medical problems for obvious target audiences is the same as removing images of Muhammad or information on evolution." Emphasis mine. And I tend to agree with Ian.thomson. At Talk:Trypophobia/Archive 2#RfC Should we include this image? (in 2015), AlbinoFerret, states, "There is consensus for including the image. The majority opinion cites WP:NOTCENSORED, in this section of the policy page we find that the main page is WP:DISC which warns of triggering by images. The minority argument is mainly that the image may cause physical harm, but offers no examples of physical harm happening from the specific image. It also cites WP:UNDO, but only for the image and not for the other uses of the same source. There is also discussion of collapsing the image, but there is no consensus to do so."
Personally, looking at that 2015 discussion, I saw no consensus for including the image. To me, that discussion was "no consensus." Also, since that discussion, more research has been done on trypophobia and researchers are clear that it exists and negatively impacts those it affects. The imagery can cause harm. The imagery does not only induce psychological issues, but neurovegetative (autonomic nervous system) responses as well. What researchers debate now is whether or not it should be classified as a phobia and what the causes are. Seeing stuff like this and this, and your comment above, which relay that our readers have expressed psychological and neurovegetative harm at seeing the image, I am worried for them and am open to hiding the image in the lead in a collapse box so that those who want to see it can see it. But, in the 2015 discussion, WhatamIdoing notes issues with collapsing images. You can also see that WhatamIdoing expressed concern for those who might be harmed by viewing the image. I think it's time for another RfC on this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:29, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

WhatamIdoing, regarding this, why do you think moving it down will help? It's still going to induce trypophobia, and it will come as even more of a surprise to readers who think that the article is image-free until making there way to the end of it. I don't find the image to be decorative at the top. It's there to help readers understand what induces trypophobia. Also, an editor already tried moving it down and was reverted by one of the editors who have been most vocal on retaining the image. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:21, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My recommendation, and I do not have an aversion to the image, is that the image be moved further down the page. That way, a reader who takes a quick look at the article will not see the image, but a reader who scrolls down the page will see it. However, there should not be any sort of a warning that scrolling down the page will reveal an image. We can assume that anyone who reads down the page is ready for the image. I would make the same recommendation about an image of decaying or diseased flesh, for instance, if the article was about flesh-eating bacteria. Move the image half-way down the page. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:52, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Robert McClenon, thanks for offering a perspective. I'm someone who would read the whole article, though, and I'm sure that there are a lot of others like me. I don't think that most readers who start reading the article and see no image will expect a trypophobic image later on; I think they will be surprised to find it lower and, if they have trypophobia, just as upset if they'd found it higher. That stated, if the image is placed where WhatamIdoing placed it, they would have read a good portion of the article before coming across the upsetting image. I still prefer that it be placed at the top but collapsed since it's not easy to describe to people what induces trypophobia unless they see the type of imagery that induces it. It's not as simple as stating "a fear of holes." People with trypophobia can see holes and not have a reaction. It's about the pattern, look and depth (what researchers describe as "images that present high-contrast energy at low and midrange spatial frequencies"). And it's not just holes that induce trypophobia. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:18, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My suggestion to move it wasn't about reducing or removing triggers (although, given how few people read past the first section, it might have that as a side effect).
I don't actually think this image is in the article for any educational purpose. I think it is more decorative than educational, and therefore, IMO it ought to be removed per policy. That said, if we're going to have it, it would make more editorial sense to put the image in the section that mentions a study involving lotus seed pods, instead of up at the top, where this plant isn't even mentioned. Therefore, I suggest moving it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:19, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WhatamIdoing, I disagree, considering that, as made clear in the RfCs, what induces trypophobia is not easy to demonstrate. In the 2015 RfC, you even stated, "First of all, it's not 'a pattern of holes'; it's being disgusted solely by an irregular pattern of holes (or bumps). This is much more 'disgusted by skin diseases' than 'frightened by polka dots', and these patterns don't turn up very often in everyday life. I'm looking around me, and I don't see anything that qualifies. Secondly, surprise matters for things that are disgusting or frightening." In that RfC, Abecedare also stated, "I came across this discussion through WP:VPP, and frankly the description 'fear of holes', 'irregular patterns of holes' is not close to as helpful in explaining what is being talked about (I initially imagined something like caves or fishing nets), as the image. The image is not simply gratuitous, but useful to the general reader in understanding the subject of the article." And I've already noted above why I don't think moving it lower helps at all. Started an RfC below. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The image can be removed on grounds it is off-topic. The image itself does not state it is related to the topic. The images that state they are related to the topic can be found here. QuackGuru (talk) 15:28, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The image is not off-topic in any way; we have reliable sources, such as this one and this one, making it clear that lotus seed pod imagery induces trypophobia. We state it in the "Epidemiology" section, which is why WhatamIdoing moved it there. In the "Society and culture" section, it is noted that lotus seedhead imagery is one of the top trypophobia-inducing images. In the 2015 RfC, Abecedare stated, "I am not the only one who seems to think so, since the editorial decision to include such images has been made by almost every source on the subject including the first scientific paper describing the phenomenon, as well as popular accounts in mainstream publications such as the Scientific American, Washington Post, Popular Science, CBS News, Smithsonian Magazine, NPR, The Atlantic, and The Independent (the Statesman Journal appears to be the sole exception, although only the first page seems to have been archived so that too is not certain)." This is true; this image is the most common one given as an example of inducing trypophobia. The images you cited in the "A Case Report and Comprehensive Review of the Literature" don't change that and those images are specific to that case -- that little girl who has trypophobia. Not everyone with trypophobia is going to react to those images. I sure don't. Those images are not noted as common trypophobia-inducing images, but the lotus seedhead imagery is commonly shown to be a trypophobia-inducing image. Of course, the lotus seed pod image in question is not cited in the sources; it doesn't need to be. It's not like researchers are going around using the same exact image of a lotus seed pod. All is needed is an image of a lotus seed pod if we are to show one. RfC below. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Should the image be removed, retained in the lead but collapsed, or moved down?

There has been much debate about this image (of a lotus seed pod) at the Trypophobia article. So far, the debate has produced a 2013 RfC, a 2015 Village pump (policy) discussion, a 2015 RfC here at this talk page, and now this one. The first RfC closed as no consensus to remove the image, the second discussion did not have an official close, but more editors leaned toward excluding the image (and other phobia images in phobia articles), and the final RfC closed as consensus for including the image. The discussions have concerned whether or not including the image is beneficial to readers, and whether or not it causes unnecessary harm to our readers. One view has been that the image is educational because demonstrating what induces trypophobia is not easy since a simple explanation of "a fear of holes" or "irregular patterns or clusters of small holes, or bumps" does not suffice. People with trypophobia can look at holes or irregular patterns and not have a reaction. Rather, the condition is about certain patterns, and in particular images that present high-contrast energy at low and midrange spatial frequencies. Lotus seed pod imagery is commonly noted as imagery that induces trypophobia and is used by researchers to test for trypophobia. Another view is that the image is irrelevant, decorative, or not needed, and that, even if it is educational, it causes unnecessary harm to our readers; this is seen, for example, here and here. WP:NOTCENSORED has been cited in past discussions. Some have felt that removing the image based on the possibility that it might harm readers, especially if the condition is not real or an actual phobia, is censoring. Others have stated that this is not a matter of WP:NOTCENSORED; it's a matter of whether we really need the image for the topic and whether we want to risk causing our readers harm. The imagery won't harm those without trypophobia, but it will harm those with it (they are the ones most likely to visit this article) and, with more research on the topic having been done since past discussions, researchers are are clear that it exists and does induce negative psychological or autonomic nervous system responses.

As a compromise, editors have suggested collapsing the image (although collapsing it has been noted as something that would cause accessibility issues), or moving the image far down the page. So should we remove the image? Retain the image in the lead, but collapse it? Or move it lower? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Far more people know what Ebola is, and people with Ebola are often in too much physical pain to be up looking on the Internet about information on Ebola. Not the same thing at all. As for the rest, I'd rather not repeat myself. So I stand by what I've stated on this matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:53, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wnt, no one stated "that trypophobia is accepted as a condition requiring accommodations." We have only stated that people have trypophobia and that it causes distress to those people, commentary that is based on the research.
There are no tricky politics going on here by following the WP:GRATUITOUS guideline with regard to illustrations of sexual acts. Sorry, but editors like you claiming WP:NOTCENSORED in such cases no longer works. We temper that policy with the WP:GRATUITOUS guideline, which states, "Material that would be considered vulgar or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available." As seen at the Fisting talk page with Alsee, who also voted in this trypophobia survey below, we go with the less offensive drawing or other illustration when it demonstrates the sex act just as well as the real-life sex act. Alsee stated, "The discussion on this page is not should we have images of fisting, the discussion is which of the available images best illustrate fisting. The only rule that is kinda-sorta helpful for what you want is: if we have two equally good fisting images then we go with the less offensive one. If you'd like to propose alternative images then I'd be happy to consider whether they are more informative and better illustrate this topic." That is the type of thing I go by. Like I sated in my interview with Gawker, "going with a drawing or a painting, or computer-generated image, of a sex act is usually less offensive to our readers than going with an image of a real-life sex act. Our readers are less inclined to call such images 'porn' when they think of them as simply drawings, artistic paintings or as cartoons." Many others feel that real-life images of sex acts give off an unencyclopedic feel. And they have a solid point about that. We want our articles to feel like an encyclopedia, not like a porn page. I've worked on enough of our sexual topic articles to know all of that. You don't have to like Seedfeeder's drawings or other such illustrations, but they work and there has been far less fighting and exhibitionism with regard to sexual images because of them. We still include real-life sexual images occasionally, such as at the Fisting article, but, for the most part, we don't need to. I would never suggest we hide sexual images, and I highly doubt that hiding this trypophobia image would lead to that or similar. The trypophobia case is what I and others feel is a WP:Ignore all rules case. WP:Ignore all rules does not hold up very often, and people would need consensus to collapse an image at some other article anyway, and it would need to include solid rationales. Do stop looking through my past to try to discredit my opinion on this because you like to unnecessarily go with more gratuitous images. Interesting that you are all for going with a misleading image of female ejaculation, a topic that is far more debated than trypophobia has ever been. At least the researchers who have studied trypophobia are not stating that it doesn't exist. Those who have studied female ejaculation? They lean more toward the liquid being urine and female ejaculation not truly existing. Also take note that Doc James and I are in agreement to not include that female ejaculation image you were so keen on including. I noted above that Doc and I are usually in agreement, but not about this trypophobia image case. Collapsing the image isn't failing to get information to people, in most cases anyway. It would still be right there for people to click on. And others have offered the blurring option. It's clear that you and I will not be agreeing. I didn't fully follow your penile fracture commentary, but anyway. On a side note: Since this article/talk page is on my watchlist, there is no need to keep pinging me to it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:53, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A picture is worth a thousand words, and it is well worth including it to show what something is, and indeed, even to show when something is implausible. Wnt (talk) 12:10, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And again, I have not argued for removing the image. As for "implausible," I assume you mean female ejaculation...because what the lotus image induces what induces is fact. And I was already clear at WP:Med about why I object to the female ejaculation image, but that's a different topic, obviously. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:49, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Point taken about the pinging - I feel differently myself, I find that stuff gets lost in the watchlist (which probably means I should clear out my watchlist...), and I find pings useful for attracting my attention if someone has actually said something to me. Thanks for letting me know your preference.
The history you've described is disappointing. I can see the point that phrases like 'high-contrast energy at low and midrange spatial frequencies' would be hard for a non-expert reader to understand, but I'd have thought that we could craft some wording that would be more easily understandable. But you're right, that's not what we're talking about here.
WRT the things/images of things point, I do appreciate that the things themselves will also cause the effects - I thought that was self-evident, but I wasn't very clear so apologies for that. The contrast I was trying to draw was that while arachnophobes' symptoms are triggered spiders (we may be made uncomfortable by images of them, but really it's the thought of one touching me that makes me panic), trypophobes' symptoms are triggered by the sight of 'irregular patterns or clusters', whether it's images of clusters or the clusters themselves, so we ought to be mindful of that when presenting such images. GirthSummit (blether) 04:03, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Tryptofish, just which users here do you think are trolling us? Why don't you go ahead and name names since all I see our longtime Wikipedians commenting here. And if not longtime ones, ones that have proven themselves to be good or decent Wikipedians. Just who do you think here is lying about having this condition that a number of reliable sources are clear is a real condition? Why do you think that they -- we-- would be trolling you or others? I mean, I know that Wikipedia is full of juvenile-acting males, but who's pulling your chain? Or are you only talking about the IPs? Since we're on the topic of offending, though, I'll go ahead and say the following: I don't give a damn what you or others personally think exists. For this discussion, I only care about what WP:Reliable sources (preferably scholarly sources) state and unnecessarily harming our readers. But when people like Wnt, Bluerasberry, or you mock, joke and/or question a condition that WP:Reliable sources state is very real and harms people in the sense that they get unpleasant autonomic nervous system responses, I sure as hell am going to challenge you on it. Like I noted in the #Discussion section below, experts are clear that people can have a phobia to just about anything. It is also a fact that the vast majority of phobias are not in the DSM by name and are rather handled under the broader category of specific phobia, which is in the DSM. Trypophobia is a newly researched condition, which, like the vast majority of phobias, may never be in the DSM by name, but that doesn't make it any less valid. More research will continue to come out on trypophobia, showing how real it is, regardless of the Internet fascination that people have with it. The DSM is not the be all and end all of medical authorities. And even it recognizes how unique phobias can be and that it's never going to cover all of them, and so has the specific phobia category. Trypophobia isn't even being analyzed as just a phobia, but also as an involuntary biological reaction to imagery that looks diseased or otherwise threatening. The research shows that even those who don't have trypophobia would rather look at neutral images than at a lotus seed pod image. So there is definitely something alarming about that image ether way. I've stated before that I don't understand how anyone can have a fear of clowns (coulrophobia), which also is not in the DSM, but I don't question that people have it. Why should I? Why would so many people lie abut having coulrophobia, including to the point where it is debilitating? Why would so many people lie about having trypophobia, including to the point where it is debilitating? That's a lot of acting to put into something. And to what end? Fleeting attention? Attention and trolling editors did not drive me to work on this article. Trypophobia and wanting to create a descent article on it did. Attention and trolling editors did not drive Gandydancer to have the very unpleasant reaction she had when looking at the lotus seed pod image. Trypophobia caused it. If you want to state that some disorder such as histrionic personality disorder is driving many people to openly state that they have trypophobia, that's not supported by evidence.
Looking at Talk:Coulrophobia/Archive 1, I see editors making similar WP:NOTCENSORED and "skeptical that it exists" arguments (as if their personal experiences of never having experienced a fear of clowns matter at all). If this were the Coulrophobia article (meaning if it weren't currently redirected), I think editors would also be insisting that we include an image of a clown, as if we all don't know what a clown looks like. These discussions, including this trypophobia discussion, are just as strong as any other indicator that Wikipedia is dominated by male editors. For any discussion on Wikipedia involving empathy, this always happens and I see more female than male editors showing empathy. I know some editors will be offended by my having said that, and view it as sexism, but I'm saying it anyway. Perhaps those editors should read the literature on empathy. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:25, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(1) Thank you for sharing your opinion. (2) You know perfectly well that I am not going to single anyone out. (3) Nobody needs to tell me about research or reliable sourcing. (4) I'm not joking about anybody. (5) The concept of the "scary clown" is widely recognized and is even the subject of numerous horror films. (6) You seem to be badgering every editor with whom you disagree here. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Tryptofish, coulrophobia is so widely recognized and yet editors still challenged its existence, and seemingly couldn't find good scholarly sources on it, and it is currently redirected to the Evil clown article. I noted in the Discussion section below that it should not be redirected there and that I will fix it if no one else does. And challenging nonsense is not badgering. I have only challenged comments that should be challenged. As anyone can see, I did not reply to you until you made that latest provocative comment you made. You knew it would get a response, from me or someone else, which is why you stated "I know some users will be offended, but [...]." Sighs. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:59, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I won't be replying any further. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:04, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(Gandy has a good laugh when she reads, "I know some users will be offended by my having said that, but I'm saying it anyway.") LOL, I did not feel in the least offended that a Wikipedia editor with no authority to tell editors and readers anything about what we should or should not feel "offended" about re this subject. Please get a grip. Gandydancer (talk) 22:00, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm not offended by being told to get a grip. Anyway, keep in lead, do not collapse. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:27, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In case it might be helpful to anyone who was indeed offended, I want to clarify that I did not say that in order to make some kind of global argument about trypophobia, but to provide a further reason for my position about whether or not it is appropriate to use the image as is. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:37, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't help. It's one thing if you only meant that IPs might be trolling us, although I believe that the IPs are being genuine; it's another if you mean that certain editors here in this discussion and/or in previous discussions on the topic (including those expressing concern for those with trypophobia) are trolling people. You didn't clarify. I'm the only editor in this discussion thus far who explicitly stated that I have trypophobia. Gandydancer didn't explicitly state that she has it, but she did note that the image greatly disturbed/distressed her, just as lotus seed pod imagery has greatly disturbed/distressed many people and even a number of those who don't have trypophobia are bothered by lotus seed pod imagery in some way. Either way, we can move on. We clearly disagree. There are so many phobias that are hard for people to believe in, and trypophobia isn't anywhere close to the top of the "hard to believe in" list. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:53, 30 October 2018 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:17, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would have thought it to be self-evident that I would not be describing long-term and productive editors as trolls. Trolling, pretty much by definition, is not consistent with that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:44, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You could have made that clear before instead of saying you wouldn't be naming anyone. I clearly asked, "just which users here do you think are trolling us? Why don't you go ahead and name names since all I see our longtime Wikipedians commenting here. And if not longtime ones, ones that have proven themselves to be good or decent Wikipedians. [...] Or are you only talking about the IPs?" Even if you meant registered editors who haven't been with us for long, in addition to IPs, that could have been clarified without naming names. Your commentary on the matter, except for the "periodic anonymous pleas" part, was vague, and gave reason to believe you might be talking about some of us in this discussion since you spoke of offense. In my experience, editors are less offended by IPs being offended, which is why they have to be reminded that IPs are human too. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:54, 30 October 2018 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:06, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not human. I'm a fish. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can you show me a community or sources who treat this as a medical condition to be taken seriously? We are not linking to any support services in the external links, and I take that as supporting evidence that this is not a condition for which people seek support. If I said that the majority of information sources treat trypophobia as something spooky, like a Halloween scare, would you disagree? If the majority of readers were seeking entertainment, to what extent is that a good argument for this article meeting their needs in priority over those seeking medical information? Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:40, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not it is not. In the first place, we are not debating about removing the photo. And secondly, we have laws about forced treatment and they strictly forbid it without a court hearing to find the person not competent to make their own decisions. Gandydancer (talk) 22:01, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Doc, your analogy is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater; mine is making sure the water is tepid before the baby gets in. LovelyLillith (talk) 22:56, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would not have expected such childishness from experienced editors. I find many of the recognized phobias hard to understand, but I certainly would not make fun of people that have them. Gandydancer (talk) 00:57, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Since you said above that you were not offended, I'm glad that you are not offended, and I certainly would never tell you to get a grip. (If anyone cares, I'm not making fun of people who might have the phobias, but that is, or should be, a completely separate matter from responding to what editors have been saying to me.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:45, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Gandy, it goes back to what I stated above. I'm not surprised in the least. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Since the most effective treatment for specific phobias (of which there is zero consensus 'Trypophobia' is one) is CBT/Exposure therapy, consider it free treatment for which you would otherwise have to pay large amounts of cash. You're welcome. Only in death does duty end (talk) 03:20, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
People can go on and on about "Is it a phobia or not?" as much as they want to, but the researchers who have studied it are very clear that trypophobia causes negative autonomic nervous system responses, including panic attacks in some people. They are very clear that it induces fear in some people, including persistent and excessive and/or irrational fear, which is what makes a phobia. They discuss whether or not it's best classified as a phobia, but they are not disputing its negative effects whatsoever. And as has been noted, exposure therapy works with repeated exposure, and not for everyone. Further, trypophobia is not a typical phobia since it causes involuntary biological/physical reactions. Readers with trypophobia who come to visit this article and see that image are unlikely to return to it enough, if at all, to get any potential exposure therapy benefits. It also is not for Wikipedia to try and provide such therapy. It is up to Wikipedia to consider whether a rule is best followed or not, which is why WP:Ignore all rules exists. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:37, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
IAR requires that ignoring a rule improves the encyclopedia. This would not do that. Like every other request by people who find content objectionable, not censored applies. Its bad enough we have articles on non recognised conditions without them also being deliberately and intentionally made less informative. Only in death does duty end (talk) 04:14, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, DES (who I quoted in my vote above) has it right. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:16, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And "not in the DSM by name" doesn't equate to "not recognized." Enough researchers have recognized this condition, and the research will only continue from there. Yay. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:19, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@ Only in death does duty end, who said anything about making this article less informative? No one has suggested that the photo be removed. I, for one, though strongly affected by the image, am fascinated with it and strongly believe it should be included in our article. Gandydancer (talk) 05:00, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Making the image smaller was a compromise arrived at in the prior discussions. I do not think that was unreasonable. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:12, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that making the image smaller would help, especially since trypophobia is, in part, about small holes. Making it bigger, which was a mocking suggestion, wouldn't help either since something like the big lotus image shown here or here is just as triggering for people...although there may be less of a reaction or a stronger reaction, depending on the person and how big or small the lotus plant is. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:35, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Pinging all of those who were involved in the past discussions or edited regarding the image, except for those that are no longer editing (meaning they haven't edited Wikipedia in a year or years, whether because they stopped or were indefinitely blocked) and those already aware of the discussion (WhatamIdoing and QuackGuru): Silver seren, Vkil (Edgar Vekilnik, Jr.), Pengo, Nyttend, Jytdog, Doc James, SPACKlick, CFCF, Ian.thomson, EvergreenFir, Masem, NeilN, DESiegel (DES), Alanscottwalker, Thisisnotatest, Ozzie10aaaa, Wikimandia (МандичкаYO), Looie496, Roches, Godsy, Rhododendrites, Jerodlycett, Comatmebro, Stickee, Mangoe, Gobonobo, Trystan, Anthonyhcole, Wongba, Yobol, B, Someguy1221, Inomyabcs, Jim1138, Vorsipellis, and Robert McClenon. The IPs obviously can't be pinged. I will also alert the relevant WikiProjects, the WP:NOTCENSORED talk page, and Village pump (policy). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some kinda caption here.
Warning: the focused image contains patterns of holes that may be disturbing to some viewers.

There is lots of good research showing that trigger warnings serve to worsen problems, not just on a population level, but for the individual themselves. Also, this goes against WP:CENSOR which explicitly denounces such practices. Carl Fredrik talk 01:04, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Annotated image Click to see full image
The vast majority of phobias are not officially medically recognized by name, and that includes a fear of clowns. This is why many, or rather most, of them fall under the broad category of specific phobia, and sources like this one note that trypophobia falls under that category if the fear is excessive, persistent, and associated with significant distress or impairment. Your comment of "censor every image with holes because someone might be triggered" is an oversimplification. As discussed with Girth Summit above, trypophobia is not simply a "fear of holes." People with trypophobia are not afraid of any and every hole. It's about the patterns, depth, bumps, protrusions and, like the Wikipedia article states, the imagery must "present high-contrast energy at low and midrange spatial frequencies" to trigger trypophobia.
Wongba stated it best in 2015: "I've noticed this condition about myself since I was in elementary school 30 years ago and my friends all thought I was a little nutty when I would tell them about it. Finally, I looked on the internet about 5 years ago, and found a significant number of people that describe pretty much EXACTLY what I've felt since childhood. If it's a delusion, it's apparently a singular delusion shared by thousands of people with very similar symptoms. Why would we make this up? The amount of arrogance displayed here with people who have no idea what they're talking about and have not studied it telling people who have lived with this their entire lives that they're making it up is astounding. Also, would you force someone who wanted to know more about torture to experience it first hand literally? Because that's exactly what putting that picture on the top is for some of us. I have to expend serious self control to avert my eyes when looking at this article. I frankly find it amazing people can talk so confidently about something they know nothing about. If you don't know, you don't know. On the other hand, if you've lived it your entire life, maybe you have some inkling about what bothers you, whether it's a delusion or it's real. The people who make it their mission in life to cite style guides that only a tiny percentage of editors read or care about are what's killing Wikipedia. "
I responded more to you below on trypophobia effects and comparing one plight to another. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:49, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, fear of clowns redirects to evil clown, which includes a number of pictures. Your fear may be real to you and if so, it is what it is. But for the question of whether Wikipedia should include this potentially-triggering image, (1) other sources - both Google and the various academic and news articles that we cite in the article - include photos, and (2) other articles about phobias or things that potentially trigger people like rape, death, blood, etc, include photos or other appropriate pictures. A picture is specifically relevant here because unlike, say, fear of feces where every single person reading the article can imagine what feces is, you can't really do this topic justice without a photo. --B (talk) 17:41, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fear of clowns only currently redirects there because Jytdog redirected the Coulrophobia article there earlier this year after cutting material from the article. Before that, there were complaints on the article's talk page about having clown images in the article: Talk:Coulrophobia/Archive 1. And eventually, the article had no clown images since clown images absolutely were not needed there. Everyone knows what a clown looks like. Stuff like rape and death are not comparable. We don't need images of rape in the Rape article, which is yet another article I work on. And our lead image there does not actually show rape (although it's a painting leading up to the act). And the vast majority of our articles about phobias don't include images. The difference with trypophobia, as has been noted, is that a simple description does not suffice with regard to detailing what induces it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:19, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also, "fear of clowns" should redirect to the Clown article if it's to be redirected. Coulrophobes are afraid of clowns, not just evil clowns. I'll have to fix that if no one else does. Or just recreate the article, except in better form. Flyer22 Reborn (talk)
Seizures are far more significant medically than feelings of disgust or fear. Besides, I don't enable the Wikipedia scripts, so the image plays for me just fine when I visit the page. (Except, I didn't notice any colors, and I'm suspicious the black-and-white circular bands I see are a browser rendering artifact) I wonder if Wikipedia is running a fundraiser banner this time of year ... I have no idea. ;) Wnt (talk) 15:05, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
People have panic attacks from seeing such images. And it's not for us to judge what is far more medically significant. Phobias can be debilitating, and trypophobia is considered a phobia by enough researchers. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:53, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is for us to judge. 2% to 5% of the population can suffer a seizure and need to be hospitalized if we show them a flashing image. How many people, umm, suffer, from trypophobia and how many of those have severe reactions? The number is statistically insignificant. By the way, if you google "trypophobia", you will get plenty of pictures of irregularly shaped holes, so Google doesn't seem to share this "concern". --B (talk) 13:04, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, it isn't. This is Wikipedia, not a hospital. Neither you nor I gets to tell people that their panic attacks from trypophobia aren't serious. For this person on the other side of the screen it was serious. For a woman named Jennifer Andresen it was serious. Have you taken the time to read the Panic attack article? Have you ever experienced a panic attack? Apparently not. Or if you have, you feel that your personal experience of it not having been serious applies to the general population as well. Yes, the Panic attack article currently states that "panic attacks themselves are not typically dangerous physically," but this doesn't negate the fact that they are harmful. This is not the Medical Harm Olympics. It is not always easy to measure harm and what conditions cause more harm. For some people, a psychological condition is just as debilitating as a physical condition, if not more so. Further, trypophobia does affect people physically in ways they may deem harmful, such as an aforementioned panic attack. You state "the number is statistically insignificant" regarding people who suffer from trypophobia. And yet the research tells us that the extent to which trypophobia exists is unknown, but the available data suggests that having an aversion to trypophobic imagery is relatively common. We know that many people with trypophobia don't look into the matter, but wonder why they have that type of reaction to certain imagery. We know that many find out out what they have via the Internet. We also know that many or most people don't spend a lot of time on the Internet or use social media at all. Google and websites do a lot of things that we don't do here on Wikipedia. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:49, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're right. This is wikipedia, not a hospital. We are writing encyclopedic articles, not helping people to avoid triggers for their fears by indulging the small percentage that may find these images disgusting. Natureium (talk) 16:53, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was expecting B to repeat "This is Wikipedia, not a hospital." Anyway, it's not the same when coming from the opposing camp. After all, it's a couple or a few in the opposing camp arguing to keep the image up there for exposure therapy. And then there are those arguing to collapse it for reasons noted above. Claims such as "the small percentage that may find these images disgusting" are not supported. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:16, 29 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comatmebro, that's been suggested. I countered that suggestion in the beginning of the #Survey section. I commented: "As for moving the image far down, I noted above that I'm someone who would read the whole article, and I'm sure that there are a lot of others like me. I don't think that most readers who start reading the article and see no image will expect a trypophobic image later on; I think they will be surprised to find it lower and, if they have trypophobia, just as upset if they'd found it higher. To me, that is sort of a WP:Principle of least astonishment issue. That stated, if the image is placed where WhatamIdoing placed it, they would have read a good portion of the article before coming across the upsetting image." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:09, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that I have not responded to every editor with one or more views different than my own, and that I have been with this site since 2007, there is no need to point me to WP:BLUDGEON. WP:BLUDGEON is often (not always) pointed to in cases where it is invalid, such as this one. It's often used to try and silence editors who are merely responding to different points by different commenters, and are not letting poor or inaccurate arguments go unchallenged. Such comments can influence others, which is why editors respond to them and challenge them. Tryptofish's trolling comment in the Survey section was a different point, for example, and he knew that people would disagree and likely respond to him. It is silly to state or suggest that I shouldn't have responded to him simply because I've responded to several others in the Survey section. It is silly to state or suggest that I shouldn't have responded to Comatmebro, who might have overlooked my argument on moving the image down. And, of course, if someone responds to me, I am likely to respond back. There have been discussions where I could have stated that you were engaging in WP:BLUDGEON, but I didn't because I viewed doing so as silly, given the arguments you were making to different people, and I was usually in agreement with you anyway. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:46, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But if it takes care of your WP:BLUDGEONing concern, I don't see that that there is anything left for me to state in this discussion, unless, of course, a new point is made. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:05, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I just wanted to bring it to your attention. Thanks for taking it into consideration. --GoneIn60 (talk) 20:36, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, I'm not aware of an image such as File:Sacred lotus Nelumbo nucifera.jpg inducing trypophobia. Sources on the topic of trypophobia use an image of a lotus plant like the one currently seen in the Trypophobia article, or ones with just the holes (meaning without seeds being visible)...like one of the ones seen in File:Nelumbo nucifera5.jpg. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:46, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm trying to say is that assuming that an oblique shot of the holes (or a shot lacking the holes but suggesting the pattern) that does not trigger trypophobia, with an appropriate caption, could be used as a lead image, but with the caption telling the reader they have to take that extra step of imagining the image with holes instead as being the triggering element. These lotus images without holes would be fine for all and show the idea of the irregular pattern at the center of this. --Masem (t) 19:59, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
An image that does not pertain to the condition in question would not be a very useful. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:20, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Except it does pertain, just in a manner/state that doesn't trip up readers with the condition as the lede image. A true image that does impact these readers would be appropriate later in the article, and the use of blur to even mitigate that on first pass is reasonable. But there's nothing wrong with showing the irregular patterns on a lotus blossom and how if you imagined those as a holes as how that then triggers the conditions. --Masem (t) 22:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, I understand what you are suggesting. Thanks for another idea. I was simply noting that something like File:Sacred lotus Nelumbo nucifera.jpg is related to File:Nelumbo nucifera5.jpg, but not to trypophobia. Notice that the second file is specifically in a section at the Nelumbo nucifera article titled "Seed lotus." To me, File:Sacred lotus Nelumbo nucifera.jpg looks to have a uniform pattern (mostly anyway) rather than an irregular pattern. Personally, it doesn't induce trypophobia in me at all. Also, not every irregular pattern of holes induces trypophobia (it's about the depth, spacing, contrast, and often what the holes are on...such as a living thing), and it's not just holes that induce trypophobia. That stated, someone could photoshop a lotus seed pod image with the holes filled in and see if that helps. The caption could focus on the pattern, like you suggested. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:58, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I like Masem's idea - use a less "effective" photo in the lead. Since the seed pod is the only photo that I've seen (when looking on the web) to produce a strong effect in myself, I'd want to be sure that we keep it in our article, though farther down in the article as a clickable photo. Gandydancer (talk) 22:44, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Gandydancer, maybe Mathglot is interested in contacting the editor Mathglot contacted before. This time it could be about filling in the holes, but making sure the pattern is visible? Or we could go to someone else about photopshopping. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:44, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like the idea of monkeying with the photo. How about this quahog shell which is the same one used to illustrate a trigger here [8] Gandydancer (talk) 00:20, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Flyer, I'll do that. Watch for a ping from the Graphics Lab. Mathglot (talk) 23:51, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
See my "18:19, 29 October 2018 (UTC)" comment about rape, etc. above. Or my comment "20:25, 30 October 2018 (UTC)" comment to Bluerasberry in the Survey section. Not the same thing at all. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:22, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
People with PTSD are well aware that they may find triggers at a war or rape page (though most, by far, triggers are not encyclopedia pages). At any rate, though highly unlikely, it is their choice to risk a trigger since it is assumed that the article will contain a few photos. As for the "slippery slope" problem, that seems pretty far fetched to me. Gandydancer (talk) 22:59, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Doc James, nobody - literally NOBODY - is saying that any images should be removed. In the discussion so far there is a 100% concensus that this image should remain. What many (most) are suggesting is that the image is collapsed so that it is the reader's choice as to whether they look at it or not. Why is that bad? I don't see why that's controversial. I find it hard to understand the rather careless "encyclopeadias are not for sissies, people should expect to be triggered without any warning, plus I don't have this phobia and don't think it's real but if anyone does and they have a panic attack then it will be a good lesson for them"-type strongman/twitter troll kind of attitude which some are displaying here. Bonusballs (talk) 00:25, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Slow clap to Bonusballs for summarizing the heart of the matter with erudition and succinctness. LovelyLillith (talk) 22:40, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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