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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@Pppery: I closed as move, but moved it back because apparently redirects don't work in module namespace. I ask you to implement in the move in such a way as to avoid breaking anything. buidhe23:40, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Jason Quinn: I don't understand. I didn't see an error, but have updated the reference to the latest IUCN assessment. The older assessment can be found at 2008 assessment.
There was a problem when the IUCN changed their url format and broke the links for a variety of IUCN templates. They left the oldversions at an oldredlist url for a while but then deleted that and added some redirects (but not for all pages). It was all a bit of a mess. This template was created to replace the old templates and provide a suitable link where possible. — Jts1882 | talk14:59, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Now I may understand and assume you are showing warnings as well as errors for citation templates. The iucn reference had |url=https://www.iucnredlist.org/details/41630/0 which is the oldstyle link. At least in this case they provided a redirect. The best fix is to use ((make cite iucn)) which takes the citation provided at the IUCN cite and converts to to a ((cite iucn)) reference that can be substituted. Use ((subst:make cite iucn|COPY AND PASTED CITATION|ref=iucn)) without the ref tags. This is what I used to update the citation. — Jts1882 | talk15:08, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I believe i have spotted a problem in the template. Usually an error message appears when the doi and the page code don't match. However, these are supposed to not match when an errata version is published - for an example, see this revision of Australian swamp rat (also look at the IUCN page, and compare it with a 'normal' IUCN reference like Brown bear. Currently there is no way of indicating an errata version in references, and therefore no way of making the ugly red error message go away. Could someone take a look at this? The easiest, worst way would be removing the error checks for doi and page mismatches, the best way would be adding new checks and assessments for indicating errata versions, and i guess a middle third way would be adding a new parameter that allowed users to opt out of the doi-page mismatch error check for that single reference. YuriNikolai (talk) 02:05, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have added support for |errata=. When that parameter has a year (from the parenthetical portion of the assessment's title), the assessment ID portion of the various identifiers may be different (taxon ID portion must still match), ((cite iucn)) will convert publication |year= or |date= to |orig-date= and add |date=<errata year>. I have also adjusted ((make cite iucn)) to extract errata year from the errata note in the assessment title and add |errata=<errata year> to the ((cite iucn)) template that it creates:
((make cite iucn|Burnett, S., Menkhorst, P., Ellis, M. & Denny, M. 2016. Rattus lutreolus (errata version published in 2017). The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species 2016: e.T19343A115147713. https://dx.doi.org/10.2305/IUCN.UK.2016-3.RLTS.T19343A22440810.en. Downloaded on 08 August 2021.|x))
((cite iucn |author=Burnett, S. |author2=Menkhorst, P. |author3=Ellis, M. |author4=Denny, M. |year=2016 |title=''Rattus lutreolus'' (errata version published in 2017) |errata=2017 |volume=2016 |page=e.T19343A115147713 |doi=10.2305/IUCN.UK.2016-3.RLTS.T19343A22440810.en |access-date=8 August 2021))
According to this search, there are only a dozen or so article that have ((cite iucn)) templates using |id=. I think that that parameter should go away. |id= is not a documented parameter and ((make cite iucn)) does not include it when it creates a ((cite iucn)) template from an IUCN example citation. Unless someone tells me that it is a foolish thing to do, I shall update the dozen or so articles that use |id= and then remove support for it from Module:Cite iucn.
That's a legacy parameter used to create the url in my earliest version of the module, before you upgraded it to be fully compliant with the cite templates. Now most additions use ((make cite iucn)) so it's redundant. Besides about half those uses had template errors or gave dead links. I've updated them all using ((make cite iucn)). — Jts1882 | talk15:19, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You're faster than I am. |id= no longer supported.
Odd. I wonder how many there are? The Spanish pages generally seem to use an .en doi. It seems likely to be a mistake at the IUCN end, unless it is new and there more. I've modified the regex to remove the error message. — Jts1882 | talk11:40, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
According to this search, about 165 articles; some of which, no doubt, use the same doi.
Can you explain, step-by-step, just what you are doing when you attempt to subst: the template and then preview?
Is there discussion elsewhere that has established a consensus that the 'Accessed on' date from the IUCN plain-text citation should not be extracted and rendered as |access-date=?
When I do ((make cite iucn|stuff)), the preview shows the IUCN reference in its final format. When I subst: the template, the preview is just ((subst:make cite iucn|stuff)).
As far as I understand things, the access date is for websites that can change over time. This is used so that when and if the website changes, we can continue to validate against the "as seen" version of the website. When an IUCN entry changes, it then has a new doi. The doi is what allows us to determine the "as seen" version of the data. The use of access-date in the ((cite iucn)) template seems to be a holdover from when this was treated as a website citation. I do not know of a discussion elsewhere on this. What is the rationale for keeping it? What is it used for other than as I described? Why isn't it used in other citation templates? - UtherSRG(talk)14:53, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On 1: The preview changed with the latest update, which makes sure the reference is readable on the saved page even if not substituted properly. The preview isn't as helpful when substituting (as there is nothing to preview) but the substitution still works as before.
On 2: I don't think the IUCN doi is fixed. If I remember correctly, it takes you to an updated (correction) page if there is one, which wouldn't be the one seen by the editor. If this is the case then the access date should be required. — Jts1882 | talk15:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On 1: The preview used to be of the ((cite iucn)) template that would get generated. Perhaps the preview of the subst could be that? Oh... seeing below that it is because of the damned ref-tag bug. Nevermind... - UtherSRG(talk)16:08, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
subst: does not work inside <ref>...</ref> tags (a very old bug; see see phab:T4700)
If I write this (outside of ref tags):
((subst:make cite iucn|Gobush, K.S., Edwards, C.T.T, Maisels, F., Wittemyer, G., Balfour, D. & Taylor, R.D. 2021. Loxodonta cyclotis (errata version published in 2021). The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species 2021: e.T181007989A204404464. https://dx.doi.org/10.2305/IUCN.UK.2021-1.RLTS.T181007989A204404464.en. Accessed on 25 April 2023.))
and preview, I get the properly rendered ((cite iucn)) template:
((cite iucn |author=Gobush, K.S. |author2=Edwards, C.T.T. |author3= Maisels, F. |author4=Wittemyer, G. |author5=Balfour, D. |author6=Taylor, R.D. |year=2021 |errata=2021 |title=''Loxodonta cyclotis'' |volume=2021 |page=e.T181007989A204404464 |doi=10.2305/IUCN.UK.2021-1.RLTS.T181007989A204404464.en |access-date=25 April 2023))
If I write the same thing inside <ref>...</ref> tags, I get this:[1]
Is that what is happening for you? If it is, drop the subst: prefix. Previews work correctly and AnomieBOT will be around in an hour or so to do the actual subtitution.
I remember some discussion (perhaps at WT:TOL) about how the IUCN doi doesn't change when assessments are updated(?) or it always redirects to the current assessment(?) It's all fuzzy to me now. I think that some reason like that was the rationale for having |access-date= in ((cite iucn)) renderings. You might want to dredge the WT:TOL archives and/or raise the topic there.
((subst:make cite iucn|Gobush, K.S., Edwards, C.T.T, Maisels, F., Wittemyer, G., Balfour, D. & Taylor, R.D. 2021. Loxodonta cyclotis (errata version published in 2021). The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species 2021: e.T181007989A204404464. https://dx.doi.org/10.2305/IUCN.UK.2021-1.RLTS.T181007989A204404464.en. Accessed on 25 April 2023. |ref=iucn))
which previews as:
((subst:make cite iucn|Gobush, K.S., Edwards, C.T.T, Maisels, F., Wittemyer, G., Balfour, D. & Taylor, R.D. 2021. Loxodonta cyclotis (errata version published in 2021). The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species 2021: e.T181007989A204404464. https://dx.doi.org/10.2305/IUCN.UK.2021-1.RLTS.T181007989A204404464.en. Accessed on 25 April 2023. |ref=iucn))
I think that your which previews as: example is flawed? When I preview that form, I get a ((cite iucn)) rendering, not a display of the raw (unprocessed) ((cite iucn)) template parameters or a display of the raw IUCN citation inside ((make cite iucn)) (your which previews as: example).
There really should be no pressing need to use subst: with or without |ref=NAME. Drop the subst: and let AnomieBOT do the substitution. Yeah it make take an hour or two but so what?
^((subst:make cite iucn|Gobush, K.S., Edwards, C.T.T, Maisels, F., Wittemyer, G., Balfour, D. & Taylor, R.D. 2021. Loxodonta cyclotis (errata version published in 2021). The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species 2021: e.T181007989A204404464. https://dx.doi.org/10.2305/IUCN.UK.2021-1.RLTS.T181007989A204404464.en. Accessed on 25 April 2023.))
In the last couple of weeks I've noticed that the resultant citation deviates from the usual formatting of cite journal. It now puts |access-date= first, where it should be nearly last, and it has removed the spaces preceding the pipes, which, given the length of IUCN's page numbers (such as e.T62052925A62052928) leads to a wall of text effect and clunky text wrapping. The resultant citation should look as much as possible like the standard layout shown at ((cite journal)). Abductive (reasoning)08:31, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Abductive: can you give an example? The examples in the documentation section seem to work fine. For example:
((cite iucn |author1=Sillero-Zubiri, C. |author2=Do Linh San, E. |year=2016 |title=''Mungos gambianus'' |journal=[[The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species]] |volume=2016 |page=e.T13922A45199653 |url=https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/13922/45199653 |doi=10.2305/IUCN.UK.2016-1.RLTS.T13922A45199653.en |access-date=2023-06-03 |name-list-style=amp)) → Sillero-Zubiri, C. & Do Linh San, E. (2016). "Mungos gambianus". The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. 2016: e.T13922A45199653. doi:10.2305/IUCN.UK.2016-1.RLTS.T13922A45199653.en. Retrieved 2023-06-03.
@Abductive: if I now understand correctly, you are using ((subst:Make cite iucn|...)), i.e. ((Make cite iucn)) not ((Cite iucn)). If so, then this is an issue for Trappist the monk, because it's caused by the function make_cite_iucn in Module:Cite iucn which I see has been changed recently. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:14, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support per nom. An argument that is essentially WP:AINTBROKE is a poor rationale to oppose a move, IMHO. That some of the correct versions are red suggests in fact the situation could use some work, as editors may be astonished to not find these at the correctly capitalized titles. Mdewman6 (talk) 22:40, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am a fairly new Wikipedia editor and my goal is to help make knowledge on Australian parrots and Proteaceae species (especially the threatened species) more accessible to the general public, as many people rely on this site for information.
I have been making edits to some articles and am currently in the process of adding the IUCN Red List statuses to multiple Proteaceae genera, including Grevillea and Hakea, as well as adding additional information such as on distribution and threats from reliable sources to these articles.
However, after reading other, highly rated Wikipedia articles for advice on how to write, as well as reading the recommended citations for IUCN Red List assessment pages, I have noticed I am not citing my IUCN references correctly. It appears I have missed a lot of key information, such as the DOI number and assessors.
Would anyone please help advise me on how to correctly cite IUCN references for Red List Assessments on Wikipedia species pages?
I have revised one of my IUCN references for my edits to Hakea pulvinifera to fit what I have seen in other articles, but I'm still not sure if it is correct. The revised reference looks like this:
The easiest way is to use ((make cite iucn|CITATION TEXT)). Just copy the recommended citation from the IUCN page (click the two squares icon to the left), e.g.
You write: ((make cite iucn|Barker, W. & Keith, D. 2020. Hakea pulvinifera. The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species 2020: e.T113088579A113309795. https://dx.doi.org/10.2305/IUCN.UK.2020-3.RLTS.T113088579A113309795.en. Accessed on 19 December 2023.))
Thank you very much everyone, I will use the make cite IUCN method to go back and correct my previous errors, as well as add IUCN citations to additional articles. If I have any trouble with it, I will let you know here. Lord.of.the.Proterozoic (talk) 02:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can we have this template place the article in a hidden category (maybe call it Category:IUCN cites missing doi) if the doi field is missing/empty? - UtherSRG(talk)02:09, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Justification?
I would guess that most instances of the template that are missing |doi= are listed in Category:Cite IUCN maint; particularly those that are using the old-form url. Here is a search of articles listed in that category:
a ctrl-f search of the results looking for doi gets ~30 hits, many duplicated, some not relevant which suggests that use of old-form url tends to go hand-in-hand with omission of the doi.
Use case is for new-form missing doi means either the user did something wrong, or the reference is very new and no doi was yet assigned. The latter is the case for such like Narrow-headed shrew where the IUCN has recently updated. I want to be able to track those in particular so that when a doi gets assigned, I can add it to the ref. I care less for the old-form usage, though probably those should be converted, eh? (So maybe Category:Cite IUCN new form missing doi as a subcat of the existing maint cat? And that maint cat probably needs other subcats to make maintenance easier.) - UtherSRG(talk)15:12, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Module:Cite IUCN uses the values from |page= (preferred) or from |doi= when it constructs a IUCN url for |title=. |doi= is not required and in some cases can cause confusion for reasons described at Module:Cite IUCN § Current IUCN citations.
So long as the template has either of |page= or |doi=, nothing is wrong so this template is not in need of maintenance:
((cite iucn|author=Dando, T. |author2=Kennerley, R. |year=2024 |title=''Crocidura stenocephala''|page=e.T5582A22304177 |doi=|access-date=28 June 2024))
Now that you have me thinking about it, I wonder if the time has come for us to convert some of the maintenance messaging to error messaging for templates that:
use old-form urls – many of these are dead
have unknown urls – I've seen some urls that point to non-IUCN sources
do not have any of |url=, |page=, |doi= – without these, the module cannot construct a url for |title=
I didn't say they are wrong. I said I want to have an easy way to keep track of those missing the doi so that when the doi is created, I can add it. - UtherSRG(talk)19:03, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I heard you the first time. A maintenance category suggests the need for maintenance. For templates like your example, maintenance is not needed so it is inappropriate to add a category suggesting otherwise.
My thinking is that because they updated so many statuses, the dois couldn't be added all at once and that they will roll out. And yeah, the category is large. It should probably be limited to only the new form of url citations, as all the old form url citations will already be tagged or called out in some way. As for the Green status, I tried to get something going on that when they first rolled it out, but it saw no traction. Maybe now that it is a bit more prevalent it can be revisited. - UtherSRG(talk)10:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
((make cite iucn|Ortiz, F.J.S., Carlton, E., Lanz, T. & Breitenmoser, U. 2023. Lynx pardinus (Green Status assessment). The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species 2023: e.T12520A1252020241.Accessed on 30 June 2024.))
((cite iucn|author=Ortiz, F.J.S. |author2=Carlton, E. |author3=Lanz, T. |author4=Breitenmoser, U. |year=2023 |type=Green Status assessment |title=''Lynx pardinus''|volume=2023 |page=e.T12520A1252020241 |doi=|access-date=30 June 2024))
Right. I don't know the process of registering a doi, but I speculate that it takes some amount of time, so multiply that by the number of pages the IUCN is updating/creating.... - UtherSRG(talk)16:18, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, as of this writing, Category:Cite IUCN without doi has 5379 articles so the claim that old-form url citations make up the bulk of the new category's content does not appear to be supported.
Please can you amend the bot to:
1. include |name-list-style=amp, especially when there is more than one author? (Though, it will not show an error if there is only one, so that's probably the easiest fix)
2. stop encoding the access date (even though the IUCN website includes it in it's Copy function) as user:UtherSRG keeps removing it with a 'rm extraneous parameters' comment?
3. stop encoding both single year dates (one as date and the other as volume, as Template:Cite IUCN says 'volume: usually same as date; may be omitted if date set')?
4.Include |lang=xx where the doi ends with anything that is not .en?
Thanks
NB: Was originally posted to Anomiebot's talk page, but apparently that's the wrong place
Big Blue Cray(fish) Twins (talk) 18:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All that AnomieBOT does is subst the output of ((make cite iucn)); it knows nothing about any of the templates that it substs. So, it would appear that what you want is changes to ((make cite iucn)).
Partial answers:
not going to do that; if you want that name-list style, use ((cs1 config|name-list-style=amp))
is there a consensus to do this?
is there a consensus to do this?
not going to do this. I went looking and the first .fr doi that I found did not point to a French-language assessment (doi:10.2305/IUCN.UK.2021-2.RLTS.T36828A113049742.fr). Perhaps that is the only one, but automated tools should not be saying something in Wikipedia's voice that isn't true. ((make cite iucn)) has no way of knowing what language the assessment uses. You will have to manually add |language= as appropriate; remember to include English because when there are multiple languages, English is one of them.
Thanks for the reply, Trappist the monk. I would make the following reactions to your answers: I cannot believe, or even understand, that a bot has no knowledge of the template that it substitutes. The whole point about using 'make cite iucn' is that you find the assessment on the IUCN Red List that you want to use and use the Copy function on that website, then paste the into your chosen wikipedia page. The bot then analyses what you have entered, and encodes it into a syntax that wikipedia understands. The bot is acting on the information that it was programmed by its author - who, if they have no knowledge of the template, should not be 'teaching' bots.
1. Thanks for that suggestion. But as the IUCN copy function includes the ampersand:
It would be nice if the bot did its utmost to match that.
2. That is what I am seeking. At least one user is spending a lot of time changing what the bot does.
3. Again, I am seeking consensus. But what the bot does goes against a recommendation in the template user guide that specifies the approved syntax and guidance on its use.
4. Thanks for providing proof that my suggestion might be a bit heavy-handed. But, this is the English wikipedia. I withdraw this suggestion, but will add the |lang manually to any that aren't in english, once the bot has done its work.
AnomieBOT has no knowledge of ((cite iucn)) and doesn't need it. What we start with is this from the iucn assessment page:
Chiozza, F. 2016. Chodsigoa parca (errata version published in 2017). The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species 2016: e.T41435A115186683. https://dx.doi.org/10.2305/IUCN.UK.2016-3.RLTS.T41435A22292325.en. Accessed on 06 July 2024.
what we want to get to is this; a correctly formatted ((cite iucn)) template:
((cite iucn|author=Chiozza, F. |year=2016 |errata=2017 |title=''Chodsigoa parca''|volume=2016 |page=e.T41435A115186683 |doi=10.2305/IUCN.UK.2016-3.RLTS.T41435A22292325.en |access-date=6 July 2024))
To get there we write:
((make cite iucn|Chiozza, F. 2016. Chodsigoa parca (errata version published in 2017). The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species 2016: e.T41435A115186683. https://dx.doi.org/10.2305/IUCN.UK.2016-3.RLTS.T41435A22292325.en. Accessed on 06 July 2024.))
((make cite iucn)) takes the raw input from the IUCN assessment, translates that information into the correct ((cite iucn)) parameters, and then calls ((cite iucn)) to render the visible output that looks like this:
So far, no bot. You can see where I did this at this edit; note the ((make cite iucn)) output here.
Now it's time for the bot. At this edit, 45 minutes after my edit, AnomieBOT replaced (substd) ((make cite iucn)) with its rendering, a properly formatted ((cite iucn)) template. No knowledge of ((cite iucn)) or ((make cite iucn)) was needed to accomplish the substitution. The bot knew to subst ((make cite iucn)) because that template's documentation transcludes ((subst only|auto=yes)).
And answers:
that IUCN include the ampersand in their citations does not oblige us to do the same. At this writing, Module:Citation/CS1 (the engine that renders ((cite iucn)) among lots of other templates) is used by ~5,871,700 articles. Of those articles, ~55,000 have at least one template that uses |name-list-style=amp. For style consistency, all citation templates with multiple authors should specify the name list style; or none of them should. For in-article consistency, use ((cs1 config|name-list-style=amp)) rather than worry about individual templates. Because the majority of articles do not specify a name list style, ((make cite iucn)) should not ignore that predominant style.
if you have a beef with another editor, here is not the place to resolve that dispute. If there is a consensus to leave out |access-date= then we can do that. Achieve that consensus first. You might consider WT:TOL as a place to start.
Again, the bot has nothing to do with the translation and rendering of the citation from an IUCN assessment. goes against a recommendation in the template user guide that specifies the approved syntax and guidance on its use. This is about |date= and |volume=. Are you referring to this line at ((cite iucn))?volume: usually same as date; may be omitted if date setif you are then may be omitted is the key phrase. Editors are free to keep it or remove it as they see fit.
Thanks. So, what you are saying is that using just 'make cite iucn' is an error that the bot corrects, and what we should be using is 'subst:Make cite IUCN' instead ?
No. Using ((make cite iucn)) is not an error; it is the solution to presenting an IUCN assessment citation in a manner consistent with other references in the article. Using ((make cite iucn)) requires the least amount of effort from the editor.
subst: inside <ref>...</ref> tags does not work; see Template:Make cite IUCN § Limitations. Outside of <ref>...</ref> tags and inside named <ref name="NAME">...</ref> tags, you can use subst: if you want but AnomieBOT allows you to ignore all of that.
The bot is just doing the same as a user using 'subst:Make cite IUCN'. The end result is the same so the bot is not changing anything, just making things easier for editors.
I think |access-date= is useful to decide whether to check for an updated assessment. I would oppose its removal.
'volume: usually same as date; may be omitted if date set'. May be omitted is not the same as should be omitted. Usually also implies it may not be the same in all instances.
Why would English Wikipedia cite an assessment in a foreign language? To my knowledge there is always an English version, at least I don't remember having seen one. Perhaps non-English ones should be flagged.