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Hello! Voting in the 2021 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 6 December 2021. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2021 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add ((NoACEMM)) to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:06, 23 November 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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18:13, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

22:53, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I am looking for a mentor. I wanna go through a course under your tutelage for a period of time that you determine for a counter vandalism course. After which I will be given rollback privileges. It will be a honor to learn under you. Cheers Amaekuma (talk) 07:29, 13 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Amaekuma: Thank you for your vote of confidence! Alas, my counter-vandalism participation these days is sporadic. I think you'd be better served by a mentor who is more regularly available. Owen× ☎ 11:29, 13 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks Amaekuma (talk) 16:49, 13 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello! Voting in the 2022 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 12 December 2022. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

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I nominated a bunch of related templates for merging with Template:Unblock. I could not find a tfm notice template for multiple templates, but I do want to let you know that you can comment on the proposed merge at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2023_August_11#Unblock_templates. Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 20:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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Thank you for your past contributions to the project. — JJMC89 bot 00:21, 1 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello, OwenX,

Glad to see your active return! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:53, 15 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you, @Liz:! Owen× ☎ 23:13, 15 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If Ronny Thorsen was the most voted for redirect/merge target, what is the reason for deleting Blood Red Throne? --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:04, 10 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Jax 0677: As a seasoned editor, you already know that views expressed on AfD debates are not votes. Merging an article about a band into the page for one of its members is not appropriate. And there was no consensus for this merge either. However, if you believe the discussion was closed incorrectly, you are welcome to take the case to Deletion review. You can also expand the Ronny Thorsen page by adding more about his role in the band, as long as you do not shift the main focus of the article. Owen× ☎ 00:54, 10 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello, OwenX,

Saw your closure statement. Yes, I could be called the "Queen of Relisted AFD Discussions"! I guess I've had enough negative experiences at Deletion review that I like to have the discussion be as decisive as possible before closing. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:41, 18 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes, I noticed that, and I admire your patient, consensus-building approach to AfD. I've been through the DRV grinder myself... Please don't hesitate to give me a shout if you feel I'm jumping the gun on a closure. Owen× ☎ 23:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Liz And yes we have another DRV here because I am not convinced by that unilateral delete. Cheers. Tetrainn (talk) 07:18, 19 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Arshad Khan (Chaiwala). Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Tetrainn (talk) 07:16, 19 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please undelete Draft:Balkan State of Bulgaria. WP:A11 only applies to mainspace not draftspace. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Blood Red Throne. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Jax 0677 (talk) 14:01, 22 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello, OwenX. You have new messages at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ajaykumar465.
Message added 08:01, 25 November 2023 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the ((Talkback)) or ((Tb)) template.

Since you were among the deleting administrators, this might benefit from your input. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:01, 25 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello! Voting in the 2023 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 11 December 2023. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2023 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add ((NoACEMM)) to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi OwenX :) I'm looking for people to interview here. Feel free to pass if you're not interested. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 10:08, 2 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi OwenX. At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abdulaziz Al-Elewai you mentioned this quote "Footballers who have played a full international match for their country are deemed notable, and thus do not have to meet the specific notability criteria at this page" linking WP:FPL. The quote is not on that page (anymore?). At any rate, the subject-specific notability guideline we used to have for footballers was retired a few years ago. Footballer articles now need to meet WP:GNG. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 12:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You are correct; the quote was from this page, a now-dormant proposal that never gained enough support to become policy. Thank you for bringing this to my attention! Owen× ☎ 12:51, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Actually, "Footballers who have played a full international match for their country are deemed notable" was a criterion we went by in the past. "participation-based criteria" were removed from NSPORTS after this discussion from March 2022. Robby.is.on (talk) 13:12, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you! I should really familiarize myself better with NSPORTS2022. I find it sad that inability to reach a consensus on subject-specific notability criteria left us having to rely on GNG, which is far too broad and vague for consistent application when it comes to sports-related articles. Owen× ☎ 14:06, 10 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

~ ~ ~ Merry Christmas! ~ ~ ~

Hello OwenX: Enjoy the holiday season and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Happy New Year!

OwenX,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

   Send New Year cheer by adding ((subst:Happy New Year fireworks)) to user talk pages.

CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I thought your comment here was well-expressed and figured I should say so. Arguments over WP:NJOURNALS are among the most hostile, petty, and vindictive-seeming that I've encountered in 30K+ edits here. Few things do such a good job of making me want to wash my hands of the whole project as a meaningless time sink. Then I remember, with a sigh and a grumble, that lots of math and science pages are still in bad shape, and there's some nebulous "good of the world" argument to be made that I plug away at those. XOR'easter (talk) 20:35, 13 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you, XOR'easter! I think your reply to me on that DRV was right on the money. I know what you mean about a meaningless time sink. I had a long period of minimal activity here. But in the end, there is enough room for the good work of editors like you. I truly hope you stick around. Don't hesitate to give me a shout if you ever get close to a burnout. Owen× ☎ 20:50, 13 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks. XOR'easter (talk) 22:16, 13 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

... Yeah, that "discussion" and a couple others have done me in, I think. XOR'easter (talk) 16:11, 14 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No, please don't. That discussion will be adjudicated exactly as it needs to be, with the minority view getting the weight it deserves. It is perfectly acceptable to ignore that hostility, and focus on the productive areas. Don't let a few P&G warriors get in the way of the project. Owen× ☎ 16:20, 14 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Owen, as I stated the references in the article were sufficient for the WP:GNG. Instead of focusing on this part, you closed the AFD with a very irrelevant attack on my reasoning, while assigning me a different rationale than the one I brought forward. This is very unfortunate. As if you did not read what I wrote. Now forget about all that for one moment. Only three people responded. Would you be open to relisting? This type of hostile closure is really rare for AfDs, and makes work among fellow volunteers unpleasant, reslisting when there are only 3 respondents certainly is the common response for an AfD in this state. You would thus undo your unpleasantries and allow more time for the community to discuss. Three people with split opinions can be rather random. gidonb (talk) 03:16, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for bringing this here, gidonb. You made three assertions in that AfD: (1) current sources in the article meet GNG; (2) a quote from NEXIST; and (3) AFDISNOTCLEANUP. I didn't ignore (1) and (3), I merely pointed out that (2) was unhelpful and irrelevant. NEXIST instructs us to keep articles for which sourcing exists, even if those sources aren't cited in the article. Alas, you provided no such sources, nor a hint about where they might be found.

There were four participants in this AfD: the nominator, you, and two others. All but you supported deletion. Contrary to your claim here, there was nothing "random" in their opinion. All three were solidly anchored in policy and guidelines. Consensus would have likely been the same if we had thirty policy-based views. My closing wasn't "hostile". I wanted to provide transparency for my decision, explaining why merely waving the "NEXIST" flag is not a substantive argument unless accompanied by actual sources. I was hoping you'd take it as constructive criticism rather than as an insult.

Quoting various policies is not the same as addressing the actual notability-based weakness of an article. But by all means, feel free to take this to WP:DRV if you believe I erred in my reading of consensus. Owen× ☎ 12:08, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My sources were the two main references in the article that were also the sources that I found through my wider search. I will not submit my first DRV after 21 years over the very unfortunate wording of an AfD closure. Everyone is entitled to make a mistake. More sensitivity toward fellow users however is appreciated. We all volunteer our time here. gidonb (talk) 16:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't understand. If your sources were already cited in the article, what was the point of quoting NEXIST? Owen× ☎ 16:25, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That the focus of the intro was on whether there were references (vs. sources) or not. It seems to conflict with no expiration date and NEXIST. My points were [A] the references were sufficient. [B] What matters is if there are sources out there. Not how long the article has been tagged for not having references. Maybe you can still correct that in the wording of the AFD closure because it does a grave injustice to my position. gidonb (talk) 16:32, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What matters is indeed that there are sources out there. However, in your previous comment, you claimed your argument relied on the two sources already cited in the article, and you failed to provide any other sources. So again I struggle to understand the relevance of the NEXIST argument. WP:NEXIST is invoked whenever we can show sources that aren't cited by an article. That was exactly the point I made in the AfD closing.

Instead of going around in circles, I would like a simple answer to the following question: Do you have additional sources for that article? If the answer is Yes, why didn't you provide them in the AfD? If the answer is No, why did you bring up NEXIST? Owen× ☎ 16:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Your newest complaint is going around in circles. Well, answers will be repetitive if you keep asking the same question. I brought up NEXIST because of the focus of the intro on the length of time that the article wasn't sufficiently referenced, according to the nominator. However, I also saw multiple good references that were already in the article, sufficing the GNG. So the supposedly insufficiently referenced for me did not fly. By now I have already suggested two ways to correct your behavior. If you do not want to adopt either one that's ok. The essence of a suggestion is that it sometimes gets adopted and sometimes not. Just like an opinion. Most people closing a debate, however, do not attack the opinions of participants. If you do not want to amend your past behavior in any way, then at least try to be civil next time. That was my third and last suggestion. gidonb (talk) 17:35, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So in a word, no; you do not have additional sources for that article. Your quote of NEXIST was little more than a red herring - an attempt to out-acronym the other participants, with no basis in policy or guidelines. I initially assumed good faith, but your evasive responses here suggest otherwise. If you want that AfD or any of its wording changed, please take this to DRV. Owen× ☎ 17:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

More incivility and not a red herring at all. Rather, a relevant complaint that AfDs tend to focus too much on references. Here, the references were ok. Not great but ok. Hopefully, others have looked at this in-depth and reached another conclusion than mine. That would also have been a positive AfD conclusion. gidonb (talk) 17:48, 28 January 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Just letting you know I've taken your close of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of rampage killers (familicides in the United States) to Wikipedia:Deletion review 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 01:38, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for letting me know. Owen× ☎ 01:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi, thank you for closing Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2015 World Youth Championships in Athletics – Boys' javelin throw. I was respectfully wondering if you could re-open it. Despite the page length the engagement was quite low, with only three votes and the vast majority of discussion happening in the past few days including today. Also, I found a few more sources I was planning to add to the article. Thank you, --Habst (talk) 00:05, 8 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I reviewed your comments in that discussion, and it became clear that your arguments, while well intentioned and made in good faith, are not based on our policies and guidelines. The other three participants refuted your arguments while relying on policies and guidelines. The discussion has been extended twice already, with consensus becoming very clear. I see no point in extending this debate yet again. However, if you believe I made a mistake in assessing consensus or in the process applied, you are welcome to appeal the case to Deletion review. Owen× ☎ 00:18, 8 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Would you be willing to restore Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ibrahim Tondi to my userspace? (in case either me or Habst ever find enough coverage for notability) Thanks. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:13, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think a better approach would be that we draftify the page after you or Habst find enough coverage for notability. As you know, drafts are generally deleted after six months unless they're moved to main namespace, and we don't want that clock to start ticking until you're ready. Right now, it sounds like you're not sure you can find such sources. Give me a shout here once those sources are ready. Makes sense? Owen× ☎ 01:09, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I was thinking it could be to userspace as there is no timer there as far as I'm aware. I do think it could make it a bit easier to find sources, as it provides information which can be used to search for the athlete in relation to certain events, etc. Thoughts? BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:11, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

BLPs are generally not eligible for userfication. And true, there's no explicit timer as with draft, but that just means anyone can nominate the page for MfD right away, which generally doesn't happen with a draft. On the flip side, we certainly don't want a poorly sourced BLP to sit in your userpsace for more than six months, especially seeing as such a page will be indexed by search engines, which isn't the case with draftspace.

Pinging @JoelleJay: for a second opinion on this, seeing as she did a thorough assessment of existing sources, and will likely have a better feel than I do for the potential to find additional sources. Owen× ☎ 01:35, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

FWIW, from a look I took before it was deleted it didn't look that bad. The only issue seemed to me to be that it didn't have significant coverage; the sourcing seemed fine (i.e. I thought everything was reliable, referenced, just no sigcov). What would a case be for it at MfD? Also, are userspace pages really on search engines? I looked up my own userpage on Google and only found my Commons page. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:44, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The entire AfD, like most AfDs, was about the existence of SIGCOV, so I'm not sure what you mean by "the sourcing seemed fine". And the same issue will doom the userfied page at MfD. So again, I see no point in doing anything until better sourcing is found.

User pages can be indexed, while draft pages cannot.

Anyway, let's give JoelleJay a chance to chime first. Owen× ☎ 01:59, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

By "sourcing seemed fine" I meant there wasn't, e.g. unsourced content about a BLP, tabloid negative info, etc.; although required in articles by Wikipedia, in a real sense, a lack of sigcov cannot, er, "harm" the subject of the article when everything else is fine. I don't think there's a requirement that userspace drafts must have sigcov; I have several myself, e.g. User:BeanieFan11/Bill Collins (American football player) (albeit not a BLP). But yes, I can wait to see what Joelle has to say. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:07, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi, thanks for the ping! I'll link some of my own searches for Tondi below, although I'm copy-pasting from my browser history so some links might not work. My evaluation of the available non-database sourcing was that there was nothing that went beyond passing mentions in event results lists, with the possible exception of the AllAfrica/L'Express piece that I only had partial access to (I did try to get AllAfrica Premium archives added to the WikiLibrary access list, but looks like that didn't get enough votes). From what I could read of that, it did not seem likely at all to contain SIGCOV, or even any coverage at all,[1][2] of Tondi. I didn't find any other mentions of him on L'Express or on AllAfrica[3] or Internet Archive, or through ProQuest or Newspaper Archive or my university's library search. All of this is to say that I am very doubtful any suitable sources are accessible, and simply listing out the sources we do have somewhere in userspace would be equivalent in usefulness to holding a draft of the previous version there (since it's unlikely any of the prose in the article pre-deletion would be recyclable per BALASP if actual SIGCOV was found). JoelleJay (talk) 03:08, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So is this a "no" you're suggesting for userspace? I personally don't see the issue since it probably would make it easier to find sources (e.g. looking for him in relation to a specific notable event) and would make it easier to move back if we do find sufficient coverage (I do think much would be recyclable – I don't see why the hypothetical sigcov sources about him wouldn't cover his highest athletic achievements, which looked like what the article focused on if I'm not mistaken); me and Habst are also trying to find a way to contact Niger media about these athletes, as they would likely know whether the athletes are truly notable. BeanieFan11 (talk) 03:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you, JoelleJay!

BeanieFan11, I am a big supporter of draftification and userfication when an editor wishes to work on an article that isn't ready for main namespace. A few things make me reluctant to do so in this case:

• The article is a BLP, which means our sourcing standards are higher.

• Current assessment of sources suggests it is doubtful significant coverage can be found at all, let alone in a timely fashion.

• Your comments here suggest that you still believe the article was already sufficiently sourced when it was deleted in AfD, which makes me worry your efforts might be misguided.

• You turned down my offer of draftification, so as to avoid the six month deadline. Userfication is not meant to be a long-term parking spot for failed articles. Seeing how you moved the Bill Collins page from draft to your userspace (and removed the AfC tag!) to evade deletion, where it has been sitting for almost a year with zero effort to improve it, suggests the same might happen with the Tondi article. Looking at your userfied pages, I see a long list of articles sitting there for years with no attempt to bring them up to our standards for mainspace inclusion. I see no reason to believe the fate of the Tondi article would be different.

So I'm afraid I'm back to my original offer: if and when additional sources that provide SIGCOV on the subject are found, we can look at draftification. I also urge you to either improve the articles already in your userspace, as you promised in their AfD, or else tag them for deletion. Userspace is not meant as a permanent sanctuary for articles that aren't fit for main namespace. Owen× ☎ 14:04, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

FWIW, I started a page to check how many of these userfied drafts I really have and the number is five; three were from last year, I still need to get in contact with someone offline to help get sources for those, thanks for reminding me (also, for Collins, Liz advised me to remove the AFC tag); the other two were from last month and I may or may not eventually get to (need to research further). What about this as a different option, if you have BLP concerns? You restore it to my userspace and then redirect it to User:BeanieFan11/userspace draft guide – that way, the history is still intact for if me / Habst find sources (there is a possibility IMO if we can get in contact with the Niger media, which we're working on) but it is not a "page" that is indexed, etc. Thoughts? As for my comment "sufficiently sourced", I'll repeat what I said above, I meant there wasn't, e.g. unsourced content about a BLP, tabloid negative info, etc.; although required in articles by Wikipedia, in a real sense, a lack of sigcov cannot, er, "harm" the subject of the article when everything else is fine. – I am aware that sigcov is a requirement and would not move it back unless such coverage is found. Sandstein has also given allowance of userfication for a similar Niger athlete (link), albeit it not being a BLP. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:26, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's a good idea, for the reasons I listed above. And again, I urge you to tag those userfied pages for deletion, unless you are genuinely prepared to bring them up for AfC review within the next few days. Wikipedia frowns upon having this type of userfied sanctuaries for deleted articles. I'm sure you truly intended to work on them when you asked for draftification, and the closing admins took your word for it. But when you subsequently moved them to userspace to evade deletion, and the absence of any effort to improve those articles, casts doubt on the future of those pages, and on the prospects of any pages added to that collection. Owen× ☎ 17:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't want to be rude, but there is WP:NODEADLINE. Several of those were specifically userfied (not draftifed), with the admins knowing it could take a long time (I could explain in-depth why it is taking time for the five if you like, but I don't think that's necessary). I actually think the redirect idea of mine is even better than my initial idea because it addresses your points in about it being a BLP / indexed – no one will come across it when its a redirect, but the page history is still maintained for when coverage is finally found. In response to your other points, I do understand notability / sourcing requirements, as otherwise more than ~2 of my 900 articles created would have been deleted; and additionally there is a very real possibility that coverage does exist for an athlete like this who was a top player in his nation – getting in contact with Niger media, which is what me and Habst plan on doing, would likely be able to find such sources. Should I ask about this at some place, to get the opinions of others on this topic? Note that Sandstein gave his approval for a similar Niger bio in Boureimba Kimba; besides Kimba not being a BLP, there isn't really much that difference between the two. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

WP:NODEADLINE is a lovely essay. Alas, draftifications and userfications are very much a temporary solution, not a sanctuary for deleted content. But seeing as you have no intention of letting this go, by all means, let us take those userfied pages to MfD and see what the consensus is. Owen× ☎ 18:18, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm not keeping the pages as a "sanctuary for deleted content" – I do still intend on getting them returned at some point (if / when I locate sufficient coverage for the bios; for the seasons its a bit more complicated but I can explain that too if you want). You can take them to MfD if you like; not sure what that'd solve but OK. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:22, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@OwenX: I'm really not seeing a good reason to decline Beanie's reasonable request to have a chance at improving the article. There's literally no harm in doing so. Especially considering the result of the MfD discussion you started, which frankly, should be withdrawn as a snow close. Hey man im josh (talk) 22:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The MfD is now withdrawn. You have the sysop bit, go ahead and userfy the Tondi page. You're deluding yourself if you think it will ever see any improvement to its sourcing, or ever make it back to mainspace. JoelleJay already spent more time searching sources for the article than BeanieFan11 ever will, based on BeanieFan11's history with userfied pages. But hey, it's not worth a DRV; do as you wish. Owen× ☎ 22:21, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I appreciate you withdrawing that @OwenX but I invite you to assume good faith, especially of significant content creators who express an interest in improving a subject. Beanie has a good history on this sort of thing and if they can't find anything... So what? Better we give them a chance to do so than not. As for restoring the page, I did not want to over rule you, but since you've said it's ok, I'll go ahead and do so.

PS. 5 user space drafts is nothing and Beanie's history with drafts is fantastic. Hey man im josh (talk) 22:26, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As I said, I think BeanieFan11 is a great content creator, and I'm sure they honestly intend to improve those userfied articles. They just never seem to get around to it. I'm not assuming bad faith, I'm just being pragmatic here. Deleted articles that end up in BeanieFan11's user space are there to stay, untouched. This isn't a "draft" type of situation; it's the final stop for those articles. The sooner BeanieFan11 admits this to themselves, the less time we'll waste on pointless draftification and userfication options on AfDs. Owen× ☎ 22:34, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

But why concern yourself with deletion at this point. It's a non-issue. Deletion is just a way of hiding a page from view from users who don't have a particular user access level. A page that was a part of the encyclopedia and is no longer a part of encyclopedia by virtue of it being moved out or undeleted to outside of mainspace is a page that has already been dealt with on the side of regulating what content is included in the encyclopedia. When deleted articles end up in BeanieFan11's user space, they are no longer articles at that point. G13 is a crude apparatus that culls pages that are already outside of the encyclopedia under an assumption that such pages should not accumulate indefinitely because the bloat of the number and volume of such pages is tied to a hypothesis of harm: that if this growth was tolerated indefinitely, there would be instances of undiscovered offending content remaining accessible for a long time (years), which could bring the project into disrepute, could cause harm to individuals, and cause various annoyances. G13 is really specifically about hiding content with such serious problems from public view, and it accomplishes this through sheer indiscriminateness precisely because it is assumed that all such content can never be discovered and dealt with efficiently on a discriminate, case-by-case, basis. The justification for indiscriminately deleting non-offending drafts is that abandoned-looking drafts (they may not really be abandoned but after no edits in six months it's just reasonable to assume that they are) are already pretty much out of people's sight, they're out of people's minds, they are not indexed, links don't lead people to them, so there is no great loss in hiding something that is already practically invisible. But this G13 removal of non-offending drafts is a side effect, not the meaning of G13. It's harder to assume that a userspace page has been truly forgotten, simply due to where it's located—plausibly, the user in whose page it is has not forgotten about it. So the "out of sight out of mind ~ deleted" construct works less well to begin with. If it's a trusted user, the hypothesis of harm construct almost completely collapses. And by nominating any page for a deletion discussion, a user is bringing that page into everyone's sight. So everyone can see if it's a non-offending page in actuality, and therefore not anything that needs to be hidden from anyone's view. Deletion has no meaning here. It's meaningless.—Alalch E. 23:02, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alalch E., I don't think that page is offending or harmful in any way. For me, it's about misrepresentation. If I go to an AfD and say, "Please userfy this page to me; I doubt I'll ever get around to improving it, and it'll simply join the other pages sitting indefinitely in my userspace", I'd be laughed out of that AfD. But if I say, "Draftify and I'll work on it", most will take me at my word. When I know--or should know, based on past experience--that I'll never get around to working on that page, but still ask AfD participants to draftify rather than delete, I am allowing those particpants to be duped. I'm not trying to deceive them, but the end result is the same: they !vote for an ATD they'd never pick if they knew the whole story. As I said above, I'm sure BeanieFan11 honestly believes they will, some day, finally get around to working on those indefinitely parked "drafts". But based on their edit history, they should know it's unlikely to happen, and should be upfront about it when proposing draftification. Without this disclosure, these AfDs were effectively closed based on misleading information. It's not a trick or a con, but it's also not informed consensus.

Just wondering how you got to merge? Consensus was far closer to keep. SportingFlyer T·C 13:28, 12 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm not seeing that. We have the nom as a Delete, Shazback as "Delete or Fold into Penmynydd" with some strong arguments, Eluchil404's Keep is tempered by "A merge to Penmynydd could be considered editorially", and Uncle G with a Keep. So, two Deletes with one accepting Merge as an ATD, and two Keeps with one accepting Merge as alternative. Not a clear consensus to merge, I agree, but certainly looks like the Merge option is the one most !voters should find the least objectionable. Your own !vote there seemed to be on the fence, so I would have thought you'd support moving that one sentence article to a better sourced page. Did I read that incorrectly? Owen× ☎ 14:15, 12 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for closing this! A note on one aspect of your statement, though--the journal unambiguously meets NJOURNALS as having at some point in its history been indexed by Scopus. Perhaps your close could emphasize the lack of GNG coverage required for journals, as mentioned by Red-tailed hawk in his relist and by all the delete !voters? JoelleJay (talk) 03:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you! I fixed the language on that close. Owen× ☎ 12:56, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]