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Initiated by Abd (talk) at 00:56, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
This restriction, prohibited me from "participating in discussion of any dispute in which he is [I am] not one of the originating parties, unless approved by his mentor(s)." This remedy was taken from a proposal by Thatcher, and was based on a claim that I frequently intervened in disputes, but without any finding or examples showing that my interventions had been nonconstructive. I did not notice this proposal during the case, it appeared at the end, and I'd stopped reading the Workshop page by that time. I never responded to it. The principle would seem to chill neutral intervention, when that's exactly what is missing, too often, and I'd been successful with such interventions, the community eventually confirming my positions in many cases, and a number of sitting arbitrators know this to be true. In any case, without examples of disruptive interventions, I don't know what behavior, specifically, is being prevented.
The immediate occasion is this statement on the case page. I was definitely involved with the situation under the Climate Change request. My view is that this led William M. Connolley to take an opportunity to ban me, which explains his otherwise puzzling behavior as being based on a grudge. I presented evidence, expanded at [1], on WMC's wheel-warring at Global warming as part of the subject case. When I'd worked on Global warming, I encountered the very problems that led to the current request, and can provide diffs if needed.
Therefore I considered myself already involved in the substance, hence mentor approval was not needed, even though I was not a formally named party yet. I was surprised, then, to see this objection from Mathsci appear on my Talk. As I have knowledge in depth of the underlying situation, I believed it my obligation to testify, in any case, so I declined to comply. Apparently seeing the discussion, MastCell then filed an Arbitration enforcement request, and a request to a clerk to remove my comment. Mathsci commented extensively,[2][3][4], adding confusion (incorrect about the history, apparently assuming I'd misrepresented it), and continuing after the post had been removed and it was moot.
Then WMC made a gratuitous accusation on AN. When I briefly replied to it, he threatened me with being blocked for the reply, and he removed the reply himself, which is old WMC behavior, matching that during the case.
Mathsci did consent to the closure of the Arbitration Enforcement request, after both MastCell and I agreed on that, but the request was re-opened by WMC, based on the AN incident. This is cute: troll for comment by attacking an editor, then assert the reply as a ban violation. I've noticed WMC's behavior go downhill since his desysopping.
The sanction is being used in an attempt to prevent me from participation where I am already involved, either historically or through a current accusation, and it is being used as a cover to harass me. If the my original statement had been disruptive, in itself, it could have been removed by a clerk with no fuss, likewise any editor believing it to be a ban violation could have removed it without all this mess. I thought I'd send the statement directly to ArbComm by email, a minimally disruptive approach; however, the removal of my comment from AN by WMC and his reopening the AE case made me realize that more was required.
I intend a request to lift the ban, but not yet, and sound policy is to honor ArbComm decisions, even where I may disagree strongly. The mentorship proposal, which seems to have been assumed in the ban, did not pass. Editors may voluntarily take on mentorship, and without a mentorship requirement, and specifically that ArbComm approve a mentor, I would seem to be free to choose any editor willing to accept me. GoRight is, in fact, an experienced editor, one who has survived serious attempts to ban him, and he did offer to mentor me. I did not ask him in advance to approve the comment because I did not consider it violated the restriction; however, post-facto, seeing the edit and the flap, he approved it. But the substance here is not mentor/no mentor, rather what should be behind all our decisions is not compliance with technicalities, but the purpose of all of it, the project. If my statement was disruptive, in itself, aside from the ban, I should have been warned or blocked for that, but, instead, the only objection was purely technical. Wikilawyering, in a word, to avoid the presentation of evidence.
ArbComm may decide to approve a mentor, resolving the ambiguity here. I know that arbitrators are aware of a highly experienced and presumably acceptable editor who agreed to mentor me during the case. Perhaps they will allow this mentorship. GoRight was only offering his support ad-interim. I have not asked permission to file this request, since I'm clearly an "originating party" here.
I appreciate clarification, as well, of the intention behind the restriction, with guidance as to how to honor it where I believe I am, in substance, a party to a dispute, even if not formally named. I put a great deal of effort into the Global warming situation, and AN reports don't formally name disputants. If I am working with editor A on an article, and editor B appears and attacks editor A, and B goes to AN/I, and I have knowledge of the situation, am I prohibited from commenting because editor B did not mention me? Or suppose he does mention me, as WMC mentioned me on AN?
Please look, as well, at the tendentious behavior of other editors around this, most particularly William M. Connolley, and Mathsci's pursuit of an old vendetta, not related to the case in question. [that is, not related to global warming. It is related to the case on which clarification is sought. 04:52, 1 January 2010 (UTC)] I have no significant complaint about MastCell but included him because he may wish to comment. --Abd (talk) 00:56, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
In that Abd is disallowed by Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William M. Connolley#Abd editing restriction (existing disputes) from commenting in areas where he is not an originating source of the dispute, without consultation with a mentor, I consider ArbCom may be inclined to consider either extending Abd's parole to instances where either WMC (or Mathsci) unilaterally invoke Abd or the original dispute in unrelated matters, or require WMC (and Mathsci) to refrain from invoking either Abd or the dispute in unrelated matters. It seems to me that the latter would be preferable, in that it might mean less requests for clarification. (Per Abd I am including Mathsci as a party to the original decision, and not commenting on their actions subsequently).
I should note that my response to WMC's comments at AN alluded to WP:NPA and that WMC's later response to me appeared to disregard that they had not earlier commented upon the content User:GoRight's proposal or that I had neither - that I commented to caution WMC for poor faith commentary. It may be outside of the ArbComs remit, but I am concerned that WMC's behaviour is becoming erratic and suggest they may benefit from being required to withdraw further from interactions with Abd. LessHeard vanU (talk) 01:57, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Abd has as usual misrepresented various users. His account of the recent disruptive actions of GoRight and himself does not bear much relation to actual events. Here is my understanding of what happened (New Year's Eve commitments in California do not permit any further detail at this stage, diffs can be provided later if necessary - I've written this in haste without a word count):
All discussions have taken place on Abd's talk page, Tedder's talk page, the clerk's notice board and WP:AE.
Abd could have asked for clarification in a straightforward and discreet way, by email to any arbitrator. When I initially suggested this on his talk page, his reply was, "I'm not going to bother an arbitrator with this, their time is precious." Instead he has entered into a WP:BATTLEGROUND spirit, wikilawyering in an unreasonable way about his editing restrictions, even when two arbitrators, one clerk and one senior administrator had given the same unnuanced interpretation of these restrictions. I do not understand his use of the word "vendetta", just as I did not understand his use of the word "cabal". That GoRight is unsuitable as a mentor is not really something which seems open to debate, despite all of Abd's arguments to the contrary.
Abd has broken the terms of his editing restrictions twice (on RfAr and again by posting on WP:AN). His actions have been disruptive. He has attempted to deflect attention from himself by engaging in a smear campaign against his critics. In my case he is attacking an editor in good standing who has no involvement at all in any climate change matters on WP.
NYB indicated to me in an email response that he hoped that MastCell's WP:AE request would clarify matters without ArbCom involvement. Before Abd's surprise public request here, I assumed that things had been clarified to everybody's satisfaction. I apologize that further time has to be spent on what should have been an entirely straightforward matter. Thanks in advance and Happy New Year to all! Mathsci (talk) 02:28, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
I had planned to request clarification and then saw the present request.
There are some loose ends from the Abd-WMC case that need to be tied up. In particular, Remedies 3.2 and 3.6 refer to a mentor but the decision gives no details on how the mentor is to be chosen. It would be helpful if the Committee could provide such details; for example, whether the choice of mentor is solely at Abd’s discretion or if the Committee views itself as having a role in the choice and terms of the mentorship. Abd is of course free to choose whomever he likes as an informal mentor but the question here is the choice of a formal mentor in light of the Remedies. Abd recently has chosen a mentor and the mentor has stated that he is "as official as any mentor is required to be". This mentor has assumed the capacity to authorize Abd's actions as required in Remedy 3.2. Clarification of the Committee's intent with regard to mentorship in this case would help forestall drama.
Mentorship is not a panacea. It has its place within Wikipedia and stands its best chance of success when it happens informally. For nearly five years Wikipedia's Arbitration Committee let mentorships occur informally. For slightly over one year ArbCom has taken a more active role in mentorship, using attractive buzzwords such as "structured" and "empowered" that have caused resounding failures. I know of no instance where mentorship has succeeded as a formal arbitration remedy: formal ArbCom interference tends to turn the mentor into a political football and shifts the focus from long range improvement to the equivalent of a traffic cop.
To the new arbitrators: I used to mentor five people. One of them reformed after a long string of edit warring blocks to become a sysop on this site and four other WMF sites. He has become an OTRS volunteer and he serves on the Arbitration Committee of another wiki. Another became a featured content contributor and hasn't been blocked since 2008. There have been other successes. Yet my objections to the 2009 Committee's direction were so strong that I ceased accepting new mentorships and resigned from existing ones.
The most objectionable practice of the 2009 ArbCom was phantom mentorship: writing mentorship into arbitration remedies where no actual volunteer agreed to fill the role. Abd was one of the people caught in that bind. This request for clarification offers a golden opportunity to correct that problem by rewriting the remedy to return mentorship where it functions best: in the background. Durova390 03:13, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Abd is testing the boundaries of his editing restriction, as he has with every previous editing restriction under which he's been placed. It's what he does. I can't for the life of me understand how this particular restriction is in any way ambiguous, but here we are.
It would be nice if WMC and others would never mention Abd again. It would be even nicer if Abd would just stay out of disputes where he isn't the originating party, which is after all what the sanction insists he do. No amount of tortured logic can make Abd into an "originating party" in the current Arbitration request, because he isn't one. This seems like a case where clear boundaries have been set, and are being tested. Ball's in your court.
I find it hard to characterize GoRight's sudden self-appointment as Abd's "mentor" in any but extremely cynical terms, but then I think it was a pretty cynical undertaking in the first place, and sort of makes a mockery of the idea of mentorship. If the language about mentorship from the previous decision could be tidied up, and GoRight's "mentorship" addressed, that would probably help. MastCell Talk 03:49, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Any references I made to it having been discussed that I might fill the role of Abd's mentor were references to the discussions that took place during the original Arbcom case. Abd and I had no pre-arranged agreement related to his comment in the climate change request. Indeed, if we had such an agreement it would have made more sense to formalize a mentorship agreement BEFORE he made that comment, not after. So MathSci's implication of impropriety in this respect rings hollow as far as I can tell. In any event I dispute that any such impropriety or prior agreement regarding Abd's comment at Arbcom took place.
I have always made it clear that I was only assuming the role on an interim basis until more formal arrangements were made. This was necessitated by the current climate change request submitted by Tedder so that Abd could participate in a case where he has gained invaluable insights based on his review of the parties involved in my RfC which, unsurprisingly, are essentially the same parties in that case. --GoRight (talk) 11:39, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Given that the language allowing mentor approval is being removed and we are already gathered together, I would ask the Arbiters to consider adding language to the sanction which allows an existing party in a case to specifically request Abd's assistance. In my RfC his assistance was invaluable given his thorough and fastidious attention to detail as well as his clear understanding of Wikipedia policy. New or inexperienced users would benefit greatly from such assistance. I further request that it not be considered a violation of his sanctions to place a single neutrally worded offer of assistance on someone's talk page. --GoRight (talk) 21:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
--Enric Naval (talk) 16:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Issues with Abd were identified in two arbitration cases. In both cases the principal issue identified was a strong tendency to beat dead horses. GoRight has much the same problem and is already mired in long-running disputes on climate change, which brings a near-inevitability of interaction with WMC as an expert in the field; GoRight also has long-running dispurtes with WMC. Bottom line: GoRight is not an appropriate mentor; if anything the two of them are likely to reinforce each other's worst traits and both end up banned. Guy (Help!) 19:39, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Remedy 3.2 "Abd editing restriction (existing disputes)" is revised to read:
"Abd is indefinitely prohibited from discussing any dispute in which he is not an originating party. This includes, but is not limited to, article talk and user talk pages, the administrator noticeboards, and any formal or informal dispute resolution pages. He may, however, vote or comment at polls."
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by The Four Deuces (talk) at 01:28, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Are Mass killings under Communist regimes, Communist terrorism, Putinism, Eastern Bloc emigration and defection and similar articles included in the topic ban for articles about Eastern Europe? Mass Killings under Communist regimes was originally called Communist genocide and part of the findings of the arbitration was that Martintg had canvassed other members of the list concerning the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Communist genocide. The article includes mass killings by the Soviet Union including in Ukraine. Martintg says that this article is excluded.[15] However I made a request to Martintg and received no response.[16] The Four Deuces (talk) 01:28, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
MKUCR begins "The Mass killings under Communist regimes have occurred in the Soviet Union..." (my emphasis) which is a clear reference to Eastern Europe. The first historical example is the Soviet Union and there is a section about famine in the Ukraine. Communist terrorism is described as a "term... used... to describe... repression... in the Soviet Union (my emphasis). The Four Deuces (talk) 07:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Collect, could you please strike out your comment concerning the "purpose of the complaint". (It is not even a complaint, it is a request for clarification.) You should realize that "messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process". In this article canvassing occurred and note that Vecrumba, Martintg, Biruitoral, Radeksz, Poeticbent, Biophys, Sander Saeda, Jacurek, Hillock65 and Piotrus have all participated in editing, discussion and/or voting in AfDs on this subject. The Four Deuces (talk) 15:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Are these articles included under the topic ban? One article, Lia Looveer is about an individual who was a director of several organizations, like the joint Baltic Committee, that lobbied local governments concerning political relations with the former Soviet Union. Vecrumba has commented on the talk page.[17] The Four Deuces (talk) 04:17, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Offliner already asked, see User_talk:Coren#EE_topic_bans, and The Four Deuces is aware of this query. Mass killings under communist regimes has significantly changed since Communist genocide and now is an international topic of general scope that also includes subsections on China, North Korea and Cambodia, as well as a general discussion on communist ideology as a factor. I've attempted to adhere to the spirit and letter of the EE topic ban and have kept well away from any EE sub-topic within this article. On a practical level I would like to expand the section on Ethiopia (having found an interesting book that does a comparative study of the mass killings of both the Cambodian and Ethiopian regimes), in addition to North Korea and other non-EE sub topics. I had previously sought guidance on the case page, with a number of arbitrators offering advice, for example FayssalF stating "What is understood is that editing Communism positively or critically is not restricted, forbidden or whatever while editing the Soviet Union's topics themselves are among the restricted ones", but I have asked Coren for additional clarification and he replied that it is okay to edit non-EE subtopics within Mass killings under communist regimes here, as long as I am careful, as I intend to be. As far as the other article examples mentioned by TFD:
--Martin (talk) 03:04, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps Steve wasn't aware that Coren was the one who originally drafted these topic bans, so I am some what astonished that he would disagree with Coren's own interpretation of what he himself drafted. Despite the fact that Coren is expressing his own opinion, I would have thought that he would know his own mind when he drafted these topic bans, and thus his interpretation of the remedies he himself drafted after spending several months hearing this case would carry some weight. Why does Steve finds "it is regrettable that this question has been so extensively discussed elsewhere"; it was extensively discussed on the EEML case Proposed Decision talk page, was that not the appropriate forum?
I must say that Fifelfoo's argument, that many other portions of the Mass killings under Communist regimes article can be linked to eastern Europe, stating "One problem is that cross cultural comparisons or general theory ought to speak into Eastern European topics" is some what disingenuous. Fifelfoo and his colleges have long been arguing precisely the opposite position in various AfDs, boards and on the article talk: that article violates WP:SYNTH and WP:COATRACK because there is no linkage or relationship between the various communist regimes discussed in the article, hence their inclusion together amounts to synthesis. I know some people adapt their arguments according to the forum audience, but this 180 degree reversal of position in order to convince the committee to broaden the topic ban against adding material to Cambodian, North Korean or Ethiopian sub sections seems unreasonable.
The problem with broadening these topic bans to include topics like Communist terrorism, is where now do you draw the line. It turns an easily interpreted boundary into a fuzzy line which is open to interpretation. That currently about a third of Communist terrorism is devoted to EE is more a function of WP:BIAS than anything else, the remainder is unrelated to EE and in need of expansion which would greatly increase the proportion of non EE content within the article. Is Pacific War now off limits because the Soviet Union was a part of that war for the last 3 weeks of WW2? Is it now the mere existence of 20, 15, 10 or 5% of EE content within an article that puts it off limits? --Martin (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
If you believe there is no central theory linking the various regimes together and thus the article is a synthesized coatrack, how is it possible that you "find the idea curious that a section of an article can be alienated from the article's coverage"? Either you can argue the article is a coatrack and hence the subsections can be alienated from each other, or you can argue that the subsections are related and cannot be alienated from each other (hence it is not a coatrack) and thus I should be banned from editing those subsections. But you cannot have it both ways. --Martin (talk) 00:38, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
There was no "locus of dispute" determined in final decision. The closest thing being this, which stated in part that certain members of the mailing list perceived those editing from the Russian nationalist viewpoint as opponents. There was nothing in regard to "ideological agenda" or "anti-communist agenda" as Commodore Sloat falsely claims. Nor was Communist terrorism ever discussed on the maillist, its AfD occurred in 2008, well before the maillist was even created. It is sad that those who hold pro-communist viewpoints attempt to exploit reductio ad EEML arguments in order to expand these EE topic bans to all those they perceive as their anti-communist opponents just because one former EEML member (myself) has an interest in communist related topics. --Martin (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
This is an important clarification. One problem is that cross cultural comparisons or general theory ought to speak into Eastern European topics. (but I do await seeing the theorisation in the Ethiopian-Cambodian study you mentioned) Another is that article content has barely changed since canvassed AFDs despite title change. A third is that article process which impacts on EE subtopics is stewed, and any involvement with process will be involvement in EE process (for example the theory only versus subtopics argument). Similarly participating in an AFD would be impacting on the EE components. Moreover I find it a curious argument that subportions of an article could be separated out. So please make a clear determination.
Time to put down such use of ArbCom, ANI etc. See [18] with same complainants clarificants. [19] same complainants clarificants. And the multiple quick-order AfDs on the article. Tznkai said "Also, I may start censuring people for throwing around EEML like Colonial Americans used to use the word "witch"--Tznkai (talk) 06:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)" The purpose of this complaint clarification is to remove editors with whom the complainants clarificants have a content dispute on any basis that they can find - including by going to every notice-board and process available. Use of ArbCom in order to have it get involved in content disputes is verging on abuse. Six bites at the apple should have been sufficient, no? Collect (talk) 14:43, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
I am commenting only because Four Deuces solicited my presence. Dialog would be better served without observations contending collusion: "In this article canvassing occurred and note that Vecrumba, Martintg, Biruitoral, Radeksz, Poeticbent, Biophys, Sander Saeda, Jacurek, Hillock65 and Piotrus have all participated in editing, discussion and/or voting in AfDs on this subject" which propagates the meme that the editors named were impotent to find the article on their own or express their own opinion. I stated clearly what I thought "Communist genocide", the article, should encompass at the start of the brouhaha.
The Cold War meme is that the Soviet Union was behind the spread of all Communism (capital "C"). The reality is that more than one despot perverted communism (small "c") to their self-serving purpose. Where the article in question here and others are concerned, it's up to the editors currently topic banned to show good judgement. It's also up to their editorial opposition to similarly show good judgement.
Lastly, to request clarification for hypothetical edits which have not occurred ultimately only invites continued rhetoric. As for myself, I am looking forward to putting my sources regarding Russia to good use outside the area of conflict. I suggest closing this and opening a request for clarification if and when required based on an actual edit (and not open a request for enforcement, which is more often than not an act of bad faith assuming bad faith, i.e., guilty until proven innocent). PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk 16:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
I think it would indeed be useful for the Arbcom to explicitly clarify the scope of the topic bans in this case, given how much poking around the edges has already occurred and in order to prevent matters from getting out of hand. In my personal view, the topic bans in this case should be interpreted as broadly as possible, to cover any articles and project-space pages that are in a significant way related to Eastern Europe (and not just pages/articles on EE subjects as such). Thus articles like Communist terrorism and Bering Strait ought to be covered by this topic ban, even though only parts of them deal with EE-related matters. Moreover, again to avoid confusion and to prevent gaming attempts, it should be made clear that if the topic ban applies to a page, it applies to the entire page and not just to sections of it that are EE-related. Basically the informal test should be something like: if you even need to ask, then the page is covered by the topic ban. To do otherwise would defeat the purpose of the underlying topic bans, which is to prevent the spread of the kind of POV pushing and WP:BATTLE activities on EE-related subjects that led to the underlying arbcom case in the first place. Also, it should be made explicitly clear that the topic bans cover EE-related discussions at user talk pages. For example, non-sanctioned users should not be trying to engage the users under the topic bans, at the user talk pages of the latter, in EE-subject related discussions. Nsk92 (talk) 01:11, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Of course, Nsk92's statement (just like the bans themselves) sort of ignores what was actually happening. POV-pushing and WP:BATTLE activities were not happening at Bering Strait, or at Bărcăneşti, Ialomiţa, or at The Good Soldier Švejk, or at Mikhail Lermontov, or at Valdis Zatlers, or at Dormition of the Theotokos Cathedral, Varna. Nor are they ever likely to. Trouble was generally confined to Alexander Litvinenko, Nashi (youth movement), Anti-Estonian sentiment, Vladimir Putin, Putinism, Human rights in Russia, Anna Politkovskaya, 2008 South Ossetia war, Mass killings under Communist regimes, Russian apartment bombings and at most a couple of dozen other hotspots. The current topic bans are both punitive and damaging, and do nothing to address the underlying issue. The Committee was offered a constructive solution: find mediators to work with both "sides" to minimise conflict at those articles by referencing them thoroughly with high-quality sources. Instead it chose to decimate a slew of productive contributors who generally behave well, while neither addressing the wrongdoing by the other "side" nor proposing steps to defuse conflict at that group of articles. Personally, I believe the Committee would be wise to revisit the bans and retrieve the baby it has discarded with a few cups of bathwater. - Biruitorul Talk 00:35, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
This group of editors as well as the related case were called the EEML only because most of them (not all) came from the Eastern Europe, not because they edited the EE related articles exclusively. Some of them were placed under the EE topic ban with a wrong premise that most of the conflicts in which they participated originated from Eastern Europe, and that is also only partially true. Rather than restrict these editors from contentious areas (such as ideological information wars or wars over propaganda issues) the ArbCom chose to ban editing of obscure EE related topics (which are not all problematic as pointed out by many). Moreover, only parts of the article directly related to EE are covered by the ban, not the article in general.
Hence a question. If only part of the article is related to Eastern Europe, are the restricted editors allowed to participate in AfD process (say, due to irreparable POV issues of the article in general and the EE related part in particular) of these articles?
And, Collect, you are not uninvolved with regard to disputes over Mass killings under Communist regimes. (Igny (talk) 14:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC))
I was not going to get involved in this but in light of Steve and Fritzpoll's comments below I find it necessary to make a reply.
Ok, let's get things straight here:
Bottom line:
As such (while personally I wouldn't mind seeing some slaps on the wrists to those involved in orchestrating this little charade) the proper course of action here is to AfD-ban the two articles in question (rather than those involved in orchestrating this little charade). Mass Killings should be put on a 6 month AfD restriction - seriously that many failed AfDs in such a short period of time sets some kind of a record, and the repeated re-listing of it at AfD is VERY disruptive to any improvement work that is attempted at the article (as even some "opponents" of the article, like Igny or Paul Sieber, recognize). So let the article breath. In similar vein, Communist terrorism should likewise be restricted from being AfDed in the same way that an edit warrior is still censured for edit warring when they move from one related article to another in order to avoid violating 3RR while carrying on the fight.
Bit of clarity here, please.
radek (talk) 04:09, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Oy, Steve, I realize that it is very difficult to get someone to change their mind, especially once they set out their original position in writing, in the full view of the public. So please keep in mind that no less an authority than John Maynard Keynes has said that changin' ones mind is often the right thing to do [21].
Unfortunately I get the sense that you're relying on users' statements here rather than looking at the actual articles themselves. Communist_terrorism has hardly anything in it about Eastern Europe aside from a mention of the Soviet Union in the lede (which statement should probably be removed anyway - and of course a statement about the Soviet Union can be inserted into almost any article. Those Soviets, they got around you know). The article is instead about organizations in Peru, Columbia, Malaysia, Phillipines, Greece (not EE), Basque region, United States, Germany, Nepal, and India. Not Eastern Europe. Yes, there is a section about general "Marxism" and "Leninism" but please see FayssalF's clarifications on the arb com pages [22] where he answers to a similar question with "No. We are talking about a global ideology.". And anyway, I think everyone under the topic ban has a pretty clear idea that if a section has anything to do with Soviets or something similar it's off limits.
Likewise, the mass killings article is to a good extent about Cambodia and China. Yes, there is a good chunk about Soviet Union, but again, it's not a problem for anyone to avoid that section, to continue participating in talk page discussions as to the viability of the article as whole - in particular since most of the ongoing controversy is centered around Valentino's work which has nothing to do with Eastern Europe.
For myself, I'm staying away from that article just for the sake of my own sanity. But these kinds of cheap tricks that are being tried here are pretty noxious.radek (talk) 05:14, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
See also: Framing effect.radek (talk) 12:15, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
My belief that you are not acting in good faith is simply the result of your (voluntary) participation in the ArbCom case. There's nothing incredible about this, given the comments and the attacks you made during the case. It is reasonable and in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines to assume good faith in regard to editors one hasn't encountered much before. It is unreasonable and in fact not required by Wikipedia guidelines to continue assuming something which has been demonstrated to be false by a user and his actions.
Please note that you share roughly the same position in regards to these two articles, and possibly other issues, with editors such as Igny, Fifelfoo and Paul Siebert, and I have no problem assuming good faith on their part - they have never given me a reason to believe otherwise. You have. So it's not your POV that causes me to assume bad faith on your part, but the way you have acted in promotion of this POV.
The article on Communist Terrorism was never discussed on the list, AFAIK. There was no "EEML disruption" on it. I had no idea that you voted to AfD in 2008, despite the fact that it is very well sourced, but that doesn't surprise me. MKUCR, back when it was Communist Genocide, was mentioned (in fact people disagreed on it) but it's been such a lightning rod and such a highly visible article that pretty much anyone who's voted on its AfDs or took part in discussion on it did so of their own volition and would have done so regardless.
And there's no "ideological agenda" here - either by me or by people who were on the list - except to ensure that reliable sources are used, fringe theories and authors are treated as such and that folks who actually DO HAVE an ideological agenda don't go around trying to sneak through article deletions based solely on IDON'TLIKEIT grounds.radek (talk) 03:38, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Addendum Csloat, I am not violating the AGF guideline (not policy). The guideline simply doesn't state what you think it states. In particular the guideline is clear about the fact that "This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of contrary evidence." I think your actions and comments in the past definitely fall within this provision (without which, this'd be a really dumb policy as it's impossible to require people to assume something that they know not to be true).
And what makes this "controversial" is that previous statements by some of the ArbCom members indicated that these articles would not be covered by the topic ban - hence, this being an instance of forum shopping.radek (talk) 22:46, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
The restriction was clearly formulated as anything about Eastern Europe. Any sections about Eastern Europe in articles like "Mass killings" are obviously covered. Any sections about China (or whatever is not Eastern Europe) are not covered, obviously. If you said: "anything related to Eastern Europe", then one could not contribute even in articles about Jack London because he was the most popular American writer in the Soviet Union.Biophys (talk) 04:23, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Umm, this is weird. I am only commenting here because I have been named by Radek (talk · contribs) in a most inappropriate way. He says "So csloat came up with the bright idea (Mass killings talk page, again) to try and delete the article Communist terrorism instead. You know, when at first you don't suceed, try to game the system and try somewhere else." This is an example of the incredible amount of bad faith assumptions that EEML members continue to bring to Wikipedia discussions. I am not a party to most of the discussions that the EEML people were found to have disrupted; the discussions on communist terrorism and mass killings under Communist regimes, and their surrounding AfD debates, were the exception. However what I saw on the arbcom list was truly appalling. The fact that they appear to continue wikilawyering even after sanctions from arbcom is alarming. In any case, I did not "come up with the bright idea" of AfDing Communist terrorism in order to "game the system." I originally voted to AfD communist terrorism back in 2008, and I pointed out that this article raised the same issues. Radek surely knows this as the point was obvious in my comments; his blatant distortion of my comments here is troubling.
The biggest problem with this discussion is that people are focused on clarifying the topic area "eastern europe" without reference to the history of these articles. The question shouldn't be "is 'eastern europe' covered geographically by articles about 'communist terrorism'?" but rather, "does this article fall within the rubric of articles that the EEML has chosen to disrupt?" In this case, both articles should clearly be covered by the ruling because both articles not only fall within the ideological agenda these editors single-mindedly pursued in violation of Wikipedia rules, but in fact these were articles they actually did collaborate to disrupt in a demonstrable way, at least during the AfD process. csloat (talk) 01:44, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Unbelievable. I would think that users who have been sanctioned by ArbCom would make it a point to follow Wikipedia policies to a T rather than continue to flout their abuse of those policies. Both Radek and Martintg blatantly violate WP:AGF, with Radek even stating boldly (and without any rationale) that he will always and only assume BAD faith when dealing with me. He claims this assumption started when the EEML case started, but anyone familiar with the evidence (e.g. 20090821-0105) can see clearly that is a blatantly false statement. Martintg absurdly calls me "pro-Communist" when I have said nothing of the sort. If you want to pigeonhole me for my participation on these particular articles, my stance would be "anti-synthesis violations" or, simply, "pro-Wikipedia." I have never claimed to be "pro-communist" and only an absolute refusal to read my actual arguments would lead to such a conclusion. Both martin and radek are likewise distorting my claim above about the Communist terrorism article. The fact is that I participated in AfD in 2008 on this article because it was a hotbed of WP:SYN violations and WP:FRINGE theories elevated to the status of fact. The vote was indecisive primarily because of significant collaboration by members of the EEML, whether or not it was actually discussed on list (we don't know, since the archive doesn't go back that far). But we do know that the Communist genocide article suffered the same fate from many of the same players, and that there was a "call to arms" published and discussed on the EEML list (see 20090806-526 for example) on the communist genocide AfD; there was a similar call to arms on related articles on nuclear terrorism where at the time there was a discussion of some other WP:SYN violations created by another EEML member. (see 20090817-1427). This was all spelled out by multiple commenters on the evidence page of the arbcom case. I also think these guys misunderstand my point completely -- nobody is calling for further sanctions here; the point is just that the sanctions we do have should be interpreted broadly as Arbcom explicitly called for, and that articles where the EEML members have shown themselves likely to engage in objectionable off-wiki coordination should definitely be covered by the sanctions. I don't see how this is even a controversial point here. csloat (talk) 20:19, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Thomas B (talk) at 09:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Blocks, bans, and restrictions
--Thomas B (talk) 09:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
On December 8, a topic-ban against me that had been implemented under the 9/11 ArbCom ruling was suspended for a trial period of one-month. (See discussion archived here.) My original request, however, had not been to lift the ban immediately, but simply to define an end date. AE decided on a trial period which is now coming to a close. I hadn't expected to return to editing so quickly, but I've tried to do some work that might indicate what sorts of thing I'd like to do if I returned. On that basis, then, I am simply restating my original request to let the ban run out in April.--Thomas B (talk) 09:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure what Vassyana has in mind, but it was my understanding that Roger wanted this to be decided by the committee, not the community. That's why I brought it here. If AE, not ArbCom, lifts the ban, there is the danger that other members of the community will simply return here with the arguments you are already hearing. Carcharoth's proposal has the virtue of being unequivocal. And if I am to remain banned on that principle, then I would suggest amending the ARB9/11 ruling accordingly. That is, it could be stipulated that SPAs and new users are not allowed to edit the articles. As I said to Carcharoth, the benefit of this approach will be that one source of controversy will likely be removed. In my view, the trouble stems from the clash of newbie (or at least anonymous SPA) conspiracy theorists with vested debunkers. If the first group did not show up (or were simply topic-banned when they did on formal, quantitative grounds), neither would the second. I think this would greatly reduce frustrations among editors like Tom Harrison. I certainly think that such editors, if spared the usual drama, could produce very good articles in this area. Such an amendment would also formalize the conditions under which I might return, which there seems to be consensus about among the arbs: if I want to edit these articles I simply have to make some substantial (but uncontroversial) edits to other parts of Wikipedia. Once I have done so I could presumably request that the topic-ban be lifted at AE. That suggestion is not new, of course, and I have always acknowledged that I might, one day, do exactly that. But the immediate consequence of putting this restriction on my return is that WP will have to do without my contributions for the time being.--Thomas B (talk) 11:14, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
This might be informative. It has been suggested that my overall effect is to "slant" the articles in the direction of conspiracy theories. Here is the article on the Collapse of the World Trade Center immediately before I made my first edit in July of 2006, after my last edit before being topic-banned in April of 2008, and at the close of the suspension of the topic ban in January of 2010. It is of course possible that it would have been even less conspiriatorial and very much better without my involvement. But I am pretty confident that my presence will not be found to have been disasterous.--Thomas B (talk) 12:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I was involved in the AE process which instituted a one month trial period as an admin who happened to patrol the page at that time. During the trial period, I continued to watch this user's editing and found it unproblematic and in line with our content policies (npov, fringe, and so on). He has been unfailingly polite and communicated well.
The main cause for concern is Thomas Basboll's insistence on only editing articles very closely related to 9/11 controlled demolition conspiracy theories, despite repeated suggestions by multiple arbs, admins and users that he by broadening his scope, even slightly, would demonstrate that any concerns were unfounded. Instead he chose to stop editing when the ban was imposed.
Naturally, while being interested in only a single topic is not in itself a problem, we have bad experiences with single purpose users in problematic areas and letting an unyieldingly polite POV pusher (which his critics claim is a fair description) into his area of interest could potentially cause much unnecessary work and slant towards fringe views in one of our traditional problem areas.
I tried looking into the original reasons for the topic ban (imposed by Raul) but didn't uncover any obvious smoking guns, nor did I find obvious evidence of the type of problematic POV pushing that has been attributed to him. Perhaps I missed it, or it was too subtle to detect for someone not an expert in the subject area. The worst I found was a relatively unpleasant conflict with MONGO.
In the end, I would advocate something in between continuing a total topic ban and a complete lifting of restrictions, perhaps a longer probationary period. I don't see any reason why waiting until April would improve matters however. henrik•talk 12:33, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive52#Request_to_modify_topic_ban_(User:Thomas_Basboll)_2 is the discussion where Henrik un-topic-banned Thomas for a month. (The people who commented there should be notified of this amendment request.)
The resulting contribs are 25 content edits and 30 talk edits, all to Collapse of the World Trade Center except for one recent comment to 7 World Trade Center.
Thomas appears to be working towards pushing Collapse of the World Trade Center to GA status*, and his involvement appears beneficial. If the other editors currently involved in that article do not mind his involvement, I think the topic ban should remain suspended wrt this article at least.
However, I think the general topic ban should remain in place until Thomas has worked on articles besides these very high importance/significance articles in the 9/11 topical area. John Vandenberg (chat) 08:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
If I recall correctly, the trial suspension was my suggestion, so I should probably speak as to my thinking:
Unblock and unban discussions tend to be speculative and irritating, and its often impossible to separate the baggage from the actual predictive evidence. This seemed a good opportunity to short circuit the existing norm (a lot of declarations and haranguing between supporters and opponents) and do something more useful. A suspension, in addition to moving an editor back towards their natural state (anyone can edit) more importantly functions as a diagnostic tool - in this case a month of recent editing patterns to give good facts for decision making.
This is not to say that a month of good behavior is necessarily sufficient however, and we are best served by multiple persons from the affected topic areas giving us their own impressions and reactions. If there is not enough reason to give confidence of an absence of problems indefinitely, another, longer, trial period is the natural next step.
As a final thought, the ban appears to have been logged as a discretionary sanction - and thus is subject to discretionary review. ArbCom has been invited to decide, but it need not accept that invitation.
Why can't Thomas just leave these articles alone? We have millions of articles he could edit, and a handful where his interaction has caused massive stress. There's no evidence that his strong opinions have changed, so I think it's highly unlikely that allowing a return to unrestricted editing of these articles is going to produce anything other than the same old problems. Guy (Help!) 14:44, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Are there diffs or evidence that, during the trial un-ban, Thomas Basboll has tried to slant the article? No, of course not. Given the arbcom's scrutiny, anyone but a raving loon would be on his best behavior, and Thomas certainly isn't a loon. But then his individual edits were almost never problematic. The problem was that over time they slanted the presentation in favor of 'controlled demolition'.
Along with the natural state in which anyone can edit, is the actual state, in which people don't want to edit, at least in that area. Because of the constant pov pushing, endless demands to assume good faith and compromise with conspiracy theorists, repetitive talk-page discussions, et cetera, I've chosen to spend my time elsewhere. I no longer follow those articles, and won't be working with Thomas Basboll, so take this for what it's worth. Tom Harrison Talk 18:57, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Supreme Deliciousness at 18:08, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Arab Cowboy has been caught using a sockpuppet. He created this puppet on the 17th november while the arbitration case was processing, 3 days after the admins posted proposed remedys that would ban the both of us from changing the nationality or ethnicity of persons: [24] [25] He used it during the case while choosing not to answer the remaining questions. [26] He has used this sockpuppet to repeatedly violate his topic ban and restriction (look at all the edits he has done) and he has also used it at Asmahan. [27] This shows his true intentions. It shows what kind of respect he has to wikipedia, what kind of respect he has to the arbitration case, and what he planned to do (and also did) at the Asmahan article.
I am now requesting that Arab Cowboy becomes permanently banned from editing the Asmahan article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:08, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
There is a bit more to this. I'll provide a statement as soon as I can. John Vandenberg (chat) 11:03, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay.
Arab Cowboy (talk · contribs) has admitted on their talk page that they were Medjool (talk · contribs).[52] It was an attempt at a WP:CLEANSTART.
Medjool's edits to Talk:Asmahan were definitely not a violation of the arbcom restrictions.[53]
Medjool's edits were not a clear violation of WP:SOCK. If anything, there is an element of "avoiding scrutiny" to the edits to Talk:Asmahan. The main problem here was that the edits to Talk:Asmahan resulted in the CLEANSTART hitting the rocks. Please read and understand those edits in order to understand why Arab Cowboy made those edits.
"Medjool" was a violation of Arbcom's motion requiring that they are informed of changes of account name by restricted users, however WP:SOCK does not mention that! Also, at the time that Medjool was created, Arab Cowboy was not a restricted user.
As such, it is a long stretch to use these edits as justification for discretionary sanctions; that wasn't their purpose, and there was no warning (because there was no problematic edits in the first place). And now that Medjool's prior account is disclosed, this discretionary sanction should be lifted.
At the SPI case, action was taken before Arab Cowboy/Medjool could reasonably respond. From start to finish, it was done in 7 hours, on new years eve.[54] And it was only 2.5 hours from the time that SD had finished presenting the case to the time that Medjool was blocked.
Arab Cowboy has indicated that they would like to continue editing as Medjool.
I ask you all to consider the JohnWBarber case, which has similar issues wrt CLEANSTART and that user was allowed to continue editing under their new username, despite the fact that their CLEANSTART had failed.
John Vandenberg (chat) 02:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I forwarded an email to the Arbitration Committee (on what gmail says is 1 Jan 2010 13:04:56 -0500; I am assuming that is either 13:04 or 18:04 UTC) that is of relevance to this discussion. Any arbitrators looking over this request for amendment probably should look over that email first. Best wishes, NW (Talk) 17:14, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Sandstein at 22:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I ask that remedy 1, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Falun Gong#Article probation, be vacated and replaced by a standard discretionary sanctions remedy, such as e.g. WP:ARB911#Discretionary sanctions.
Remedy 1 provides for "article probation" for all articles in the area of conflict. But article probation, as specified at WP:GS#Types of sanctions ("Editors making disruptive edits may be banned by an administrator from articles on probation and related articles or project pages") only allows article or topic bans. However, in some situations, administrators may wish to impose less drastic measures. For instance, in the open enforcement request at WP:AE#Simonm223, I think that a revert restriction would be more appropriate, at least initially, than a topic ban. Although one might assume that, a maiore ad minus, the authority to impose a strong sanction such as a topic ban implies the authority to impose lesser sanctions, it is preferable (for the avoidance of doubt and wikilawyering) that such authority be expressly provided for.
I make this request as an administrator active in WP:AE (again since January 1, having confidence in the new ArbCom), and have no involvement in the original case or in any other disputes concerning Falun Gong. Sandstein 22:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I have reviewed the editorial history of this topic area in some depth. Fulfilling this request would be immensely helpful to the editors trying to help resolve the disputes. This will be encouraging to administrators already trying to make headway in the area. It will also encourage more administrators to intervene, especially those who may have been ambivalent about the more limited enforcement options. This will also be beneficial to editors in the area, with the conditions and sanctions better tailored to the situation. The resulting improvements and normalization of the editing environment will allow dispute resolution efforts a great deal more traction and success. The long-running and intractable nature of the overall dispute in the topic area should justify the expanded measures. Vassyana (talk) 22:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Discrectionary sanctions would be good, to fine tune sanctions. (I think that this request was raised for the wrong reasons, but that's a different topic)
Quite frankly I shouldn't even be given a revert restriction for protecting the neutrality of the FLG articles from blatant efforts to insert a strong POV. Notwithstanding that this is still a good idea. Simonm223 (talk) 02:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
No matter what the outcome may be, will you in the end have something in place that will reward discussion and discourage blind reverts? As I see it this is the only way to ensure to improve Wikipedia. Thanks. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 13:05, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
The latest example (food for thought):
In my understanding Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia where we should evaluate the merit of the edits, not blindly push forward or defend a certain view. And that is why I would like to know if you consider to have something in place that will reward discussion and discourage blind reverts. Thank you! --HappyInGeneral (talk) 13:31, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
1) Imposition of discretionary sanctions
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Biruitorul Talk at 21:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Do the topic bans handed out here cover obvious vandalism? To give one example: three days ago, this guy, with four edits, vandalized four articles (vaunted BLPs no less). Vandalism has lain uncorrected in three of those. I, with 63,031 edits, over 99.8% of which have been constructive and positive contributions to the project (indeed, one of those articles was written by me), can do nothing about it. And I'm also the only one who seems to care. Doesn't the Committee find this state of affairs a bit odd? - Biruitorul Talk 21:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Carcharoth laments "There has to be a way to get others to revert vandalism like this", well there isn't. Most of EE is obscure to the majority of Wikipedians and they simply don't care to the point that sneaky vandalism goes undetected. There is only a small number who do care enough, but you topic banned most of them, the majority with 99.9% good contributions. And if something as simple as vandalism goes unattended, then certainly something more complex like content creation and expansion will be even more so neglected for 12 months while these editors serve out their topic bans. A 12 month ban on participating in AfDs or move discussions given the FoF on canvassing and a 12 month 0RR restriction to cover the co-ordinated edit warring would have been sufficient. The current broad topic bans are both punitive and damaging to the project, there were no FoF in regard to inappropriate content creation or vandalism. --Martin (talk) 00:15, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Any uncontroversial edits (reverting vandalism at the very least) should be exempt from topic bans. We are trying to build an encyclopedia here, not run a penal system, and it is a very well-established principle that rules (which I hope includes ArbCom decisions) can be ignored if they stop you from improving Wikipedia. This should be made clear by ArbCom and the community in all the appropriate places, to avoid the need for this sort of question to be asked.--Kotniski (talk) 10:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by ― A._di_M.2nd Dramaout (formerly Army1987) at 20:12, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Brews ohare is the author of three of the pictures currently on the article Speed of light. None of these pictures are directly related with the debates which led to the arbitration case, which dealt with the implications of defining the metre in terms of the speed of light in vacuum. On the FAC nomination of the article, initiated by me, constructive criticism has been expressed about the pictures; such criticism is also totally unrelated to the definition of the metre. While Brews ohare is still technically allowed to improve the pictures (as they are hosted on Commons) he is not allowed to participate in discussions about them, as that might be construed as transgressing his topic ban. I do not think that this is helpful, so I propose that Brews ohare is temporarily lifted from his topic ban until the FAC closes. ― A._di_M.2nd Dramaout (formerly Army1987) 20:12, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
In order for this amendment to be effectuated I (or another admin, or the committee) will have to suspend or lift the supplemental ban that I placed on Brews ohare previously. (Its in the case log) I have some ideas on how to word the amendment that I haven't committed to words yet, as I am still deciding whether or not to support this request.
It would be helpful to the project if Brews' physics topic ban were modified to permit him to participate in discussion of graphics that he created, and that are used in the Speed of light article, during that article's current FAC. It is not necessary that his topic ban be temporarily lifted, only that it be amended for this specific purpose. Recently Brews has been peacefully and productively editing math articles and his behavior has not been problematical in any way, so far as I am aware.—Finell 00:03, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Brews Ohare's topic ban should be temporarily modified to allow him to participate in the discussions about the diagrams he made. To answer Kirill's concerns, I think the whole point of Arbcom requests is to look at each case individually, we don't argue on the basis of precedents. Finell has pointed out above that brews has been contributing in a positive way. If there is an issue with diagrams and it is found that some modifications are needed, then it could be extremely inconvenient for someone else to do that. In practice this could mean that someone else would have to make new diagrams from scratch. This has to be weighed against the potential of disruption of wikipedia given the reason of Brews topic ban (endless arguments about speed of light, domination of talk pages). I don't see this potential for disruption given what Brews has been doing recently. As I said, precedents are irrelevant. In similar cases where someone has been topic banned from some politics page which is up for FA review, you may well conclude that despite that editor having made considerable contributions, the potential for disruption is very real. Count Iblis (talk) 15:41, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
As far as I know (and I would welcome any correction if I am mistaken), there have been no problems related to Brews' edits of images on Wikipedia/Commons. Further, I am aware of no major problems with Brews' participation in the project for the last couple of months — and I will say that stands in contrast to (and in spite of) the overzealous and...spirited actions of some of his self-appointed defenders.
On the other hand, I must also note that (per Tznkai's comments) a broadening of Brews' original topic ban to include meta-disputes and user-conduct discussions was required in late November in order to get him back on a productive track. There was also at least one violation of his physics topic ban in late December: [63].
While the proposed amendment is far broader than necessary, I am inclined to say that that on balance the likelihood of disruption from a more narrowly-crafted exception is low and indeed would be beneficial to both the project and to Brews — and might form the eventual basis for future relaxation of his topic ban terms. An opening to allow Brews to participate in discussions regarding his images in the article (which are, as far as I know, uncontroversial) would probably be worthwhile. Further, allowing him to participate in (a part of) the featured article process should – hopefully – expose him to some of our most dedicated editors working to achieve some of Wikipedia's highest standards and goals.
That's the carrot; here's the stick. While I hope and expect such a condition shouldn't be required, I would also suggest that the amendment explicitly be revocable by a consensus at WP:AE if Brews' editing should stray into the tendentious or disruptive.
The exact wording of such a temporary amendment is up to the ArbCom. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:08, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
1) Exception to topic ban
Brews ohare (talk · contribs) is permitted to participate in featured article candidacy discussions for "Speed of light" for the sole purpose of discussing the images used in the article. This shall constitute an exception to the topic ban imposed on him (remedy #4.2).
Enacted - ~ Amory (u • t • c) 02:02, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
2) Second exception to topic ban
Brews ohare (talk · contribs) is permitted to edit images used in the "Speed of light" article to address issues regarding the images that arise in connection with the article's featured article candidacies. This shall constitute an exception to the topic ban imposed on him (remedy #4.2).
Enacted - ~ Amory (u • t • c) 02:02, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Durova403 06:23, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
It is a pleasure to come to this page with something positive. Recently Cary Bass asked who might be a suitable editor to do an improvement drive for the Lech Walesa biography. Piotrus came to mind of course as Wikipedia's most prolific contributor of good articles and featured articles about Poland. I conveyed this with all the appropriate caveats about Piotrus's editing status, and mentioned that last year ScienceApologist had run a successful improvement drive for the optics article during his siteban, with ArbCom's approval. Both Cary and Piotrus were interested in requesting a similar arrangement so I sought a team of people to proxy Piotrus's edits and facilitate good article candidacy.
Malik and Xavexgoem have agreed to be facilitators. Xavexgoem is an administrator and mediator who has mediated Eastern European disputes and Malik is familiar with the area. To facilitate review Piotrus has agreed to use only English language sources.
The current wording of Wikipedia:BAN#Editing_on_behalf_of_banned_users appears to allow this type of limited proxy editing. Yet the recent arbitration was unusually contentious and we wish to take steps in advance to ensure that this proposed content drive is not mistaken for ban evasion.
So I would like to propose the following case amendment:
Malik Shabazz and Xavexgoem should be adding their agreement to this proposal shortly, and Piotrus should be emailing the Committee to affirm his endorsement of this request. Respectfully submitted, Durova403 06:23, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
I support this wholeheartedly. Xavexgoem (talk) 06:27, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
I fully support this. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:31, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
1) Proxy authorization
Malik Shabazz, Xavexgoem, and Durova are authorized to act as proxies for Piotrus by editing, at his direction, the Lech Wałęsa article, its talk page, and any process pages directly related to its nomination for Good Article status.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by radek (talk) at 08:42, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
and possibly
The editors listed as "possibly" concerned above have been notified on their talk pages. Not sure if anyone else needs formal notification.
I realize that this request may end up creating some "side drama" to the "major drama" that is now ongoing with respect to the existence and potential deletion of many unreferenced BLPs. However, I am sufficiently concerned that many notable articles on people related to Poland may end up being deleted as a consequence of the current situation that I think this request for an amendment is justified.
I've responded to the eruption of the issue of unreferenced BLPs by trying to add references to some of them (for example [65] (it's crazy that this guy was an unreffed BLP), here, here, here, and here. There've been some failures to find sources as well, for example, here, here, and here) But as I was looking through the list of unreferenced BLPs to my frustration I noticed a large number of articles on Poles that could be easily referenced by someone fluent in Polish and with access to Polish sources. I include a short list, based on the first 5000 entries from this list [66] below (Note, due to the ongoing developments, the list may not be current). Obviously, the topic ban prevents me from referencing these BLPs and thus saving them from potential deletion.
Therefore I am requesting that the topic ban on Eastern European articles is lifted in regard to unreferenced Poland related BLPs.
I understand that there may be concerns about slippery slopes which may lead to the topic ban ending up being ineffectual or to possible loopholes that such a partial lifting of the topic ban may create which, ABF, would lead to WP:Game. In order to alleviate these kinds of concerns I propose that I create and submit a specific list of unreferenced BLP articles from the link above (the list I include below can be taken as a preliminary submission - as referencing works progresses it would be extended to include other BLPs) to the ArbCom, that this list be approved and that the lifting of the topic ban is specifically applied to the articles on the list. Any editing to Eastern Europe related articles that are not on the approved list would still constitute a violation of the topic ban of course.
The list of articles includes some very notable people, for example Jolanta Kwaśniewska (former first lady of Poland and a notable persona in her own right), Henryk Chmielewski (an author of one of the most popular Polish comic books of all time), and Kazik Staszewski (a very well known and popular Polish musician). It would be a very significant loss to Wikipedia, and quite a shame, if these kinds of articles ended up being deleted.
I have not consulted in this matter with any other editors who were part of the Arbitration Case (staying away from mailing lists these days) and I think it is best to let them speak for themselves. However, I anticipate that some of them would likewise like to participate in referencing Estonian, Latvian, Moldovan, Polish, Romanian, Russian or Ukrainian unreffed BLPs. Hence, I've included them as "possible" parties in this request.
Please see Amendment 2 below.
Despite the fact that I was apparently mentioned on the EEML, I have tried very hard not to be drawn into the very nasty debate that accompanied the case. After reading the bitter and damaging comments from both sides and seeing how much harm the case did to WP, my conclusion is that now the case is finally over, we need to draw a very firm line under it and walk away. Every thing that happened happened and now it is over. For that reason I am utterly opposed to any amendment for any reason to any of the outcomes of the case. Varsovian (talk) 11:21, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
??? I don't recall Varsovian ever being discussed on the EEML, unless he is a sock of someone we did discuss. I do note that he only joined on September 28, 2009, after the EEML case was opened. BTW, I did a quick check (I'm on vacation so I didn't really spend too much time on this) in the Baltic topic space and there are also quite a few unreferenced BLPs. If the Committee are of a mind to amend the remedy, perhaps it could be made more generic to cover the other sub-topic areas within EE.--Martin (talk) 12:17, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
In order to get some help with referencing some of these articles I would like to create a Category for Poland related unreferenced BLPs. Doing so right now would of course be a violation of my topic ban. Since creating such a category would hopefully greatly aid in the efforts of providing these articles with references, I am requesting that the topic ban be lifted from the specific act of creating such a category. For this to be a meaningful act, the category has to be inserted into the appropriate articles. So I'm also asking for the topic ban not to apply to the insertion of the category into unreferenced Polish BLPs as well.
Furthermore, in order to get as much help with this task as possible I am requesting that I would be allowed to make an announcement about this category, the related articles and the general issues involved at WikiProject Poland. That way, other editors, who were not part of the arbitration case can get involved as well. If need be, this announcement can be approved by one of the arbs before it is posted.
Again, while this initiative is my own only, it is possible that other users currently under topic ban may wish to create similar categories with the same intent of referencing Eastern European BLPs.
Please note: if anyone thinks that a particular unreferenced BLP article on this list is "too controversial" for some reason, it can be removed.
Andrzej Zulawski (famous Polish film director)
Kazik Staszewski (very notable musician, widely known in Poland)
Edmund Wnuk-Lipinski (notable Polish academic/author)
Jan Olszewski (major Polish politician)
Justine Pasek (Panamanian but Polish-Ukrainian born)
Janusz Onyszkiewicz (famous dissident, politician)
José Szapocznik (Polish-Cuban)
Jolanta Kwasniewska (wife of former Polish president and notable in her own right)
Longin Pastusiak (very notable Polish politician)
Henryk Chmielewski (comics) (ugh! My favorite comic book artist from my childhood!)
Zbigniew Kabata (this guy might drop out of the "living" part of BLP pretty soon)
Franciszek Jamroz(obviously notable. not in a good way)
Jaroslav Kurzweil (Czech not Polish. I include him because I am somewhat familiar with him)
Monika Olejnik (very well known Polish TV personality)
Kasia Stankiewicz (very well known Polish pop singer)
I hope this very reasonable request will be granted without drama or delay. Indeed, if there is to be a general uncontrolled purge of unreferenced BLPs as the ruling powers seeem to wish, there ought to be a general amnesty on anyone breaching any kind of ban to add references to such articles, unless the ban was in some way related to such activity (which is highly unlikely). (By rights any uncontentious editing should not count as a breach of a ban, but I realise that's too much of a mindset shift for people around here.)--Kotniski (talk) 17:45, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
I should begin by saying that Radeksz brought this request to my attention, for which I thank him, as I had posted a mention of a Polish-related BLP which was unsourced at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland and asked for assistance in sourcing it. I would hope that arbitrators will look favourably upon both amendment 1 and amendment 2. These ask for a quite narrowly defined variance in the original topic ban. The rationale seems sound and the benefit to the project seems clear. Thanks, Angus McLellan (Talk) 03:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
1) Topic ban narrowed
The topic ban applied to Radeksz (talk · contribs) is amended. Radeksz may edit the articles listed here solely to add references and to make such incidental changes as may be necessary to bring the article into compliance with the sources used. In the event that any such edits become contentious, Radeksz is expected to cease involvement in the relevant article.
2) Tagging and categorizing of unreferenced Poland-related BLPs allowed
The topic ban applied to Radeksz (talk · contribs) is amended. Radeksz may create a category for unreferenced Polish-related biographies of living persons, tag articles for inclusion in that category, and announce the category's existence at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by William M. Connolley (talk) at 09:11, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Abd's involvement in AFD appears to rise to an infrigement of his ban, e.g. the discussion here [69]: It is not normal discussion for one participant in an AfD, which is a community process, to respond to most comments on one side with argument. If there is more evidence to be presented, by all means, present it, but there is never evidence for non-notability, so I'd recommend shutting up and let editors present what evidence they have.... The arbcomm ban Abd is indefinitely prohibited from discussing any dispute... doesn't define "dispute"; do arguements at AFD rise to the level of "dispute" within the meaning of the ban? Note the "harassment" stuff here [70].
Someone should tell WMC that his slip is showing. He has no need for this clarification, because he should not be involved with enforcing the restrictions, nor should Mathsci or other involved editors, whose recent actions are rising, indeed, to the level of harassment and baiting. I'm allowed by the restrictions to participate in polls, and that's what an AfD is. My comment there was not outside the envelope for normal poll participation. If i'm incorrect, indeed, ArbComm is welcome to clarify, for my intention is to respect ArbComm decisions no matter how stupid or intelligent. If I want to appeal them to WMF, I will, otherwise, not.
The harassment comment, as can be seen from the first diff WMC gives, I struck. I made a simple response to the AfD on the irrelevance of classic bad AfD arguments as part of my Keep !vote, and the ensuing brief discussion occurred because the nominator elected to respond personally to me, it wasn't necessary. The article in question is of marginal notability, I had previously reviewed it during the second AfD, and the whole process and its repetition is an example of how Wikipedia multiplies debate over simple questions because people become personally involved and tenaciously push for what they want instead of moving on. What WMC appears to want is the fulfillment of his prediction, stated long before the events that came to ArbComm's attention, that I'd end up banned because I meddled, by pointing out, on his Talk page, his infamous use of tools while involved, at a point when I was neutral and actually generally supported his POV. Had he heeded the warning, he'd still be an administrator.
WMC should not be allowed to waste ArbComm's time with frivolous requests. Let neutral administrators who need clarification, in order to enforce remedies, ask questions like this, or let an affected party do it. My previous request wasn't fully answered, but I'll handle that by email to arbcom-l, if I feel the need. --Abd (talk) 15:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
It is evident that WMC means to pursue Abd beyond reason and to hound and harass him at every opportunity. This request is vexatious as Abd's restrictions specifically allow him to participate in polls such as an AfD.
I would ask that the committee amend the decision to include an interaction ban on WMC with respect to Abd. This would seem prudent to maintain a harmonious working environment. --GoRight (talk) 15:30, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
This does look premature to me, although it shows the usual signs of Abd digging his heels in and preparing for a fight. Guy (Help!) 16:06, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Mathsci (talk) 16:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Abd seems to think that an AN ban discussion is a poll[75]. Tznkai (the admin in the AE thread) has told Abd that this one is a violation of the ban [76]. See related discussions User_talk:Tznkai#Abd and User_talk:Abd#Reminder_of_editing_restriction.
Does this need a clarification, or do we let AE handle it as an obvious violation? --Enric Naval (talk) 17:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
P.D.: Pst, make a clarification: Are ban discussions considered to be "polls"? --Enric Naval (talk) 02:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC) are ban discussions in AN considered to be "polls" inside the context of Abd's restriction? --Enric Naval (talk) 23:11, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
P.D.D.: Regarding Abd's edit of the Oppenheimer-Phillips_process article. It's a violation of his cold fusion topic ban because Abd has repeatedly linked himself this process to cold fusion:
Abd was already blocked once for making a minor edit to an article that he was banned from, and then claiming that it was harmless because he had self-reverted, see User_talk:Abd/Archive_12#Blocked. --Enric Naval (talk) 06:08, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I initially viewed this request as unnecessary, but recent events have convinced me of its importance. Abd doesn't take the MYOB restriction seriously. That was evident in his response to an earlier violation, and in his response to a more recent violation.
Abd's disrespect for the spirit of the restriction is enabled when other editors offer to proxy for him to get around the restriction. Presumably, the restriction was not intended to encourage sympathetic editors to repost Abd's contributions in their own name, but to actually keep him out of external disputes where his input has proven counterproductive again and again. I'm reminded of Martinphi (talk · contribs); every time a banned editor like Davkal (talk · contribs) or Iantresman (talk · contribs) would create a sock to attack another editor, Martin would restore the material by saying, "I'm not banned, and I agree with this." That sort of exercise may or may not be "legal", in a narrow legalistic sense, but it seems deeply antithetical to the spirit of the restriction.
My prior experience leads me to envision at least two possible branches from this point:
Personally, I think the second option is better. Of course, my observation of previous litigation involving Abd has made me extremely cynical, so perhaps things aren't as dichotomous as I've described them to be. Then again, the groundwork for pathway #1 is already being laid. This feels depressingly like a game; certainly I get the sense Abd is treating it that way, and I'd rather it were nipped in the bud. MastCell Talk 18:36, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
I dealt with Abd today in what I considered a quite straightforward act of enforcement of the current editing restriction [83]. The response I got from him, full of assumptions of bad faith, accusations, attempts of intimidation, and threats, was unacceptable. Enforcing the Arbcom decision under these conditions is a highly depressing and stressful exercise, so a clarification or possibly amendment would be appreciated. The rule as stated is vague, it's always been and has remained so even after the latest amendment: no discussing "disputes", but "voting and commenting at polls"? But where does a normal editorial content discussion end, and where does a "dispute" start? Which activities are "polls"? And why are polls exempted anyway; what makes us think his intervention in those has any less potential of growing disruptive than his intervention anywhere else? Since he is gaming these rules, the rules must be tightened. MastCell describes the situation quite well above. As another alternative, I only see the prospect of seeking a community sanction in the form of a full siteban on top of the Arbcom decision. That won't be achieved without yet more blood, sweat and tears, but it might be worth it – there's currently hardly any net positive coming from Abd; he has been making only insignificant numbers of mainspace edits and seems to be spending all his time playing around the edges of his restrictions stirring and perpertuating his disputes. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:45, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Its amazing what kind of conversations can happen on your talk page without your participation or even knowledge. First time I logged in today what with a real life that surfaces for several days at a time. If I've got the basic time line here, we had this request for clarification, which lead to an AE request, which I handled a week ago (Jan 12). Then, seperately, I saw that Abd had commented on an AN thread involving GoRight, now we're back here at the same request for clarification? So, which situation are we trying to clarify? I will likley comment further after I read my talk page and do the appropriate digging.--Tznkai (talk) 02:05, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Abd was blocked at 07:03, 19 January 2010 (UTC) by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs). Abd subsequently requested unblocking to participate in this discussion and in other discussions dealing with the block and his fate. I declined the unblock, given that he was specifically blocked due to his interactions with others in venues such as this. However - I did ask Abd to post additional statements to his talk page, should he wish to contribute further to this discussion. If it is proper, I or other editors can copy the relevant remarks over; if not, they will at least be on his talk page and visible. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 18:55, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Last night, Abd violated his topic ban from any content related to cold fusion with this edit to Oppenheimer–Phillips process. A glance at Talk:Oppenheimer–Phillips process shows that he edited Oppenheimer–Phillips process in relation to cold fusion prior to his ban. Skinwalker (talk) 23:34, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
1) Abd and William M. Connolley prohibited from interacting
Abd (talk · contribs) and William M. Connolley (talk · contribs) shall not interact with each other, nor comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about each other, on any page in Wikipedia. Should either editor do so, he may be blocked by any administrator for a short time, up to one week.
Enacted ~ Amory (u • t • c) 22:52, 2 February 2010 (UTC)