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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by MapSGV at 16:45, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
I have spent some time evaluating policies and practices. Given the many problems with the sanction, I am finding that this sanction should be appealed.
Sandstein first blocked me indefinitely and then unblocked and topic banned me from India, Pakistan and Afghanistan by finding sense in a frivolous report filed by a ban evading sock[2] who was already going under an SPI investigation[3] for being a suspected sock of an editor who is himself indefinitely topic banned from India, Pakistan, Afghanistan.[4] It was also clear the the user was going to end up getting blocked per WP:DUCK. The version of the SPI report at the time when Sandstein sanctioned me clearly shows that the user has a long history of deceiving, harassing, wikihounding, filing frivolous reports and he even trolled on SPI by claiming that CheckUser absolved him.[5] Clearly, Sandstein shouldn't have relied upon report filed by this sock without identifying the motives and background first.
In place of removing that report per WP:G5 or just blocking the reporter as a sock and also for filing a frivolous report, or at least waiting until the SPI was sorted per GoldenRing's suggestion,[6] Sandstein claimed that the report is actionable[7], and the didn't even checked statements of anyone, nor he checked the diffs properly. WP:ARE clearly says that, "Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale," and "your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it." But Sandstein also ignored these policies throughout this report. Here is the accurate analysis of all those "18 diffs" that Sandstein has frequently pointed to justify his actions.[8][9]
Analysis of diffs reported in ARE by sock.
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I responded to Sandstein,[23][24] highlighting both sides and the credibility of this report. Sandstein made a response and closed the report in just 16 hours[25] and blocked me indefinitely by making disparaging remarks about me in his comment,[26] and also making contrary claims like " rather than convince us that it will not reoccur", despite he never even asked, and "incivility by others is no excuse for incivility of one's own", however, when a user is reported to WP:ARE, conduct of all parties is observed so it is necessary to highlight conduct of others when allegations have been made against you.
In short words, there was not even a single diff for which I could be sanctioned. Anyone can misrepresent more than a dozen of diffs about any user but admin's work is to properly judge them and Sandstein failed there. If the user was not a sock then still, Sandstein had to remind all involved parties of the dispute about relevant policies of conduct than singling me out and blocking me in violation of blocking policy. Since I had no earlier sanctions or blocks, he had to leave a note per WP:BEFOREBLOCK and make it clear that it should not happen. What Sandstein deemed as "incivility" didn't even involved any use of the seven dirty words, nor I think you will find anybody else on Wikipedia getting blocked over that. Sandstein also topic banned me from India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, despite I never even edited Afghanistan. Given all these problems, I request Arbcom to consider both the block and topic ban to be invalid and request Arbcom to remove the topic ban. MapSGV (talk) 16:45, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Sandstein you are still misrepresenting me and my edits to justify your unwarranted actions.
18 diffs do not make "10%" of "223". None of the diffs involved any violation. Are you saying that if I had 1000 edits then you wouldnt be sanctioning? Which policy says that higher edit count can save you from getting sanctioned? Many of my edits have nothing to do with this subject[27][28][29][30] hence I am not SPA but you are falsely claiming me to be. You seem to be asserting that users can be topic banned from whole India, Pakistan and Afghanistan but not any one of them, which is also wrong. WP:NOTTHEM is for unblock requests and here it is relevant to give details on background. MapSGV (talk) 17:45, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Newyorkbrad, Sandstein never gave me a single warning and indeffed me right away. I never had a warning from any other admin or user either. MapSGV (talk) 21:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Sandstein, Siachen conflict was improved because of me and there are chances it will be improved when I will be able to edit it again. All diffs from Siachen conflict were outdated and not one sided. Leave out a couple of messages with petty civility issues, have you read my most messages there? Majority of editors there [31][32][33][34][35] agreed with my scholarly accepted WP:RS based content. Is that is why you topic banned me from there or you see something that no one else can see? There's no reason why you should single me out. MapSGV (talk) 21:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
@Alex Shih: Do you have any diffs to prove my edits as "stronger than desired POV"? Evidence suggests that my edits were agreed by most editors and they are backed by scholarly WP:RS.[36][37][38] That's not a POV, but representation of mainstream academic view. – MapSGV (talk) 16:45, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive227#MapSGV I outlined my reasons for what was initially a non-AE indef block and which I later changed to a topic ban. Specifically, MapSGV had then made only 223 edits, and of these, some 10% had been problematic as reported in the AE thread. This is not an acceptable signal-to-noise ratio, especially in a high-tension topic area subject to discretionary sanctions. I concluded then that MapSGV's contribution to this topic area is not a net benefit to Wikipedia.
What is being submitted here on appeal does not make me change this view. The discourse about supposed socking by others is beside the point because the conduct of others is not relevant to sanctions imposed on MapSGV; see WP:NOTTHEM. The comments on the individual diffs are also immaterial, because it is the number of problematic or at least questionable edits by MapSGV, in proportion to their other editing, that made me impose the sanction, and not the particulars of any one of these edits. Afghanistan is included in the topic ban because it is part of the real-world conflicts affecting the topic area.
Moreover, the fact that MapSGV has not made any edits unrelated to the sanction since being sanctioned 18 days ago indicates that they are not interested in productive editing outside of issues related to the conflicts in India and Pakistan. We do not need more WP:SPAs dedicated to ethno-nationalist conflicts.
I therefore recommend that this appeal be declined. Sandstein 17:18, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
@Mkdw: Most of the diffs concerned a ban evading sock who was on verge of getting blocked, hence the credibility is not just limited with reporting but the evidence itself. SPI showed that the sock was Wikihounding every page that had been edited by MapSGV,[43] and had the tendency of Wikihounding other editors and then calling them a sock for justifying his harassment and he was calling MapSGV a sock as well.[44]
As for other diffs, anyone can point out a number of diffs about just anyone from a heated content dispute where a couple of editors are engaging in original research, making personal attacks and disregarding reliable sources. You need to read what MapSGV was replying to, and he tried not to fall into their level at first.[45] I don't see any "personal attacks" for which he could be sanctioned by any other admin and Sandstein himself refuses to take action against users engaging in long term pattern of egregious personal attacks, misrepresentation of sources, gaming of system, edit warring, and other forms of disruption as seen in these two [46][47] recently closed AE reports. One of them[48] directly involving a user who had offensive interactions with MapSGV as well as other editors not only on Talk:Siachen conflict, but also an AfD. If other users are allowed to scot-free for their egregious personal attacks and long term pattern of problematic editing, then MapSGV should not be singled out just for trivial civility issues.
Later on, MapSGV had interactions on AfD of Research and Analysis Wing activities in Pakistan, where the AfD result ended up supporting MapSGV's opinion and not his opponents. Here, MapSGV was again attacked by the same user[49] but MapSGV remained civil.[50]
WP:IDENTIFYUNCIVIL describes how to make judgement on incivility and MapSGV couldn't be sanctioned in this regard if we go by the policy and standards.
Again, I have also never seen anyone getting sanctioned like MapSGV has been and without even a single warning. That's why this topic ban as well as the block lacks any merit and contradicts the policies and standards. Lorstaking (talk) 03:41, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Blocking and then topic banning a well-meaning editor over small civility issues (that weren't one sided) without even a prior warning and solely relying on report lodged by disruptive ban evading sock is objectionable and also out of process. Sandstein should've considered making a discussion with MapSGV first and had to make similar discussion with other involved users that engaged in incivility.
Most editors agree with MapSGV's contributions to Siachen conflict, because they were important and his edits brought back focus on result of the battle, which is also emphasized by scholars and academics. MapSGV's edits contradicted the long term POV version that was pushed by FreeatlastChitchat,[51] and MapSGV became target of FreeatlastChitchat who would abuse his sock to harass MapSGV and then file an AE report after failing to get his POV on articles. Since incivility is judged after reviewing entire incident and MapSGV was clearly provoked by others who made false accusations against him, there was no way he had to be singled out while leaving others. The AfD pointed out above is a good example, where MapSGV was again attacked but he was civil.[52] FreeatlastChitchat always had a tendency of filing frivolous complaints and he had done same with me with his main account.[53] Talk:Roti#RfC about the origin of the roti also ended up supporting MapSGV's opinion, hence MapSGV should be allowed to edit this subject since he happens to be correct with his edits, unlike those who engage in disruption to right great wrongs.
In all fairness, Sandstein is clearly incorrect and his failure to understand the errors with his actions is concerning. This is not happening for the first time but just another time, despite issues have been raised before about his mishandling of AE reports,[54][55][56] and given Sandstein's disappointing responses here, I am inclined to think that Sandstein's mishandling of AE reports is going to create problems in future. D4iNa4 (talk) 16:51, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Although I disagree with this sanction in the sense that it's not what I would have done, I think it was within administrator discretion and would be unlikely to be overturned on appeal at AE (I would certainly opine that way in an appeal there). I still think it would have been better to let the SPI play out before taking action on this request, because although it is true that we expect editors to behave calmly and civilly even with socks of disruptive editors, and the fact they were responding to disruption does not excuse or give them license for being disruptive themselves, it should IMO be taken as a mitigating circumstance when deciding a sanction for that disruption. To do otherwise is to be seen to be enabling harassment. I would therefore urge Sandstein to commute this to time served plus a warning not to respond to disruption in kind. GoldenRing (talk) 09:17, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The discretionary sanctions appeal by MapSGV is sustained, and the topic-ban imposed on MapSGV on March 2, 2018 is lifted. MapSGV remains on notice that the India/Pakistan topic-area is subject to discretionary sanctions, and is reminded to edit in accordance with all applicable policies.
Enacted - Miniapolis 17:13, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
The discretionary sanctions appeal by MapSGV is sustained to the extent that the topic-ban imposed on March 2, 2018 is modified to provide, "MapSGV is topic-banned from editing regarding conflicts between India and Pakistan until September 2, 2018." MapSGV may edit regarding other topics involving India, Pakistan, or Afghanistan, but remains on notice that the India/Pakistan topic-area is subject to discretionary sanctions, and is reminded to edit in accordance with all applicable policies.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Captain Occam at 09:17, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
I was advised by a member of ArbCom to ask about this here, so I may as well give it a shot.
In a current AE thread, admins are reaching a consensus that I have violated my topic ban from articles related to race and intelligence by discussing them over e-mail, and by editing in the topic of human intelligence and psychometrics in general. The question of whether topic bans extend to e-mail is currently being discussed in a RFC, but I would like ArbCom to address the second question, regarding the exact scope of my topic ban. I've included user:Ferahgo_the_Assassin as a party because she is under a topic ban identical to mine, so whatever decision ArbCom makes about the scope of my topic ban presumably applies to the scope of hers also.
The edits I've made that are being considered topic ban violations are this edit to the Oliver James article, and my former participation in the psychometrics task force, where my involvement focused on making it possible to tag articles within this task force's scope, and also searching for other editors who might be interested in participating in the task force, as per user:Everymorning's suggestion here. The discretionary sanctions from the race and intelligence arbitration case are defined as covering "the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed". I had assumed that the scope of my topic ban was the same as the scope of the discretionary sanctions, and that it therefore covered only articles about psychological traits in relation to race. Psychometrics (including in relation to genetics) is a far vaster field than the small subset of this research that deals with group differences, so this difference between the two possible interpretations of my topic ban is not trivial.
I recognize that whether these edits were within the scope of my topic ban or not, it was unwise for me to get involved in a topic so close to the area of my topic ban, or to engage in a behavior that looked similar to canvassing. For 14 of the 15 months since my site-ban was lifted, I've avoided editing anything related to human intelligence, but my attention was recently attracted back to that topic because of a discussion about it at Wikipediocracy, and also an article I recently was invited to write about the topic for an unrelated website. Regardless of the outcome of the AE thread, from now on I intend to avoid the topic of human intelligence and psychometrics entirely for as long as my topic ban remains in effect. However, I think it's important for ArbCom to clarify the scope of my topic ban for the purpose of that AE thread, because this affects the question of how harshly I deserve to be sanctioned there.
Does the scope of topic bans from the race and intelligence arbitration case apply to the same set of articles that are covered by discretionary sanctions (articles that discuss both race and psychological traits), or does it have a broader scope (race or psychological traits)? --Captain Occam (talk) 09:44, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
@Sandstein: My intention with this proposal isn't to evade the possibility of being sanctioned, and if you're concerned it might have that affect, I have a suggestion about how to make sure it doesn't. Based on the discussion thus far in the AE thread, I think it's clear that at a minimum, I'm going to receive a month-long arbitration enforcement block for having violated my topic ban by discussing R&I articles over e-mail. I would accept it for you to close the AE thread with a month-long block for me, as long as I'm able to continue participating in this clarification request via my user talk. If ArbCom determines that I've engaged in additional violations of my topic ban and that I deserve an indef block, the indef block would be a non-AE action, so it could be done after the AE thread has been closed.
I'm obviously reluctant to advocate a block for myself, but I'm proposing this because it's very important to me that others not assume bad faith about this request for clarification. Please let me know if you'd accept the solution I'm proposing. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:09, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
@Euryalus: As I said in response to your e-mail, that's what I'm intending to do after this issue is over with, the same as I was doing from the time when my ArbCom lifted my site-ban until a few weeks ago. But it's a bit difficult to be motivated for that at a time when I know that any edits I make are about to get cut short by a block, and possibly an indef one. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:25, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
@GoldenRing: There is something I think it's very important to clarify here. Aside from my recent e-mail to Beyond my Ken, my contacting of other editors via e-mail has been specifically about the psychometrics task force, not about the race and intelligence topic. Influencing editors in the R&I topic via e-mail is something that I used to do, and I mentioned this to ArbCom when I appealed my ban to them in December 2016, but it isn't something I've been doing in the time since my ban was lifted. Aside from my e-mail to Beyond my Ken, I have only sent one other e-mail to a Wikipedia user in the past year that directly concerned the race and intelligence topic. It was an e-mail to Everymorning in which I made a general suggestion that he pay attention to that article, during a lengthy correspondence about the task force that was mostly unrelated to race and intelligence. That e-mail was sent directly to his e-mail address, not through the Wikipedia e-mail feature.
I'm willing to provide the e-mails that are coming under scrutiny here, so that you and other admins can see that what I'm saying about them is correct.
Now, I know that the psychometrics task force might possibly be covered by my topic ban also, so that e-mailing other users about that could be considered a topic ban violation, but this wasn't something that I had been aware of. You and the other AE admins are basing your decision on the assumption that I presently have a pattern of deliberately circumventing my topic ban with the e-mail function, and that isn't the case. I would like the AE decision about me to be based on the reality of the situation, and not based on an incorrect assumption. --Captain Occam (talk) 12:30, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
@GoldenRing: Actually, since I could potentially be indeffed at any moment, I guess I'll go ahead and do what I was offering to do. Aside from Everymorning and Beyond my Ken, I have only e-mailed two Wikipedia users in in the past year in relation to anything related to human intelligence. One was my e-mail to Rvcx that he mentioned in the AE thread. It was sent directly to his e-mail address, not through the Wikipedia e-mail feature. The content of the e-mail was as follows:
Dear (name redacted),
I'm no longer banned from Wikipedia, and I'm helping a few other editors create a psychometrics task force in the psychology wikiproject to help improve Wikipedia's articles related to personality and intelligence. The task force is mostly set up at this point, so now we're contacting other people who might be interested in participating.
There isn't any specific article or editor I'm wanting you to pay attention to now; I just thought you might like to participate in that task force in general. Are you interested?
--(name redacted) / Captain Occam
The other e-mail that I sent was to user:BlackHades. This, too, was sent directly to his e-mail address, not through the Wikipedia e-mail feature.
Hi Blackhades,
Remember me? I'm wondering if you're still interested in editing Wikipedia. If you are, there's something going on there that I think you might like to participate in.
Just in case people are inclined to assume bad faith about what I meant, the "something going on" that I mentioned is the psychometrics task force. Like my e-mail to Rvcx, this e-mail did not discuss any of the articles from which I'm topic banned.
The reason I chose to send these messages via e-mail, instead of posting them on-wiki, was not because there was anything in them either of that I thought was worth hiding. It was because both editors had been inactive for a few years, and I thought that if I posted in their user talk they might not notice it.
This situation demonstrates one of the downsides of trying to enforce a topic ban over e-mail actions. Since none of you had actually seen the e-mails involved, it was easy for you to assume I was sending dozens of them and that they were a deliberate attempt to influence edits on articles from which I'm topic banned. I expect that even now that I've posted these, I'll most likely get indeffed anyway, but I hope other people reviewing this situation can recognize what was problematic about sanctioning me based on your assumptions about evidence that you weren't able to see. --Captain Occam (talk) 12:51, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
I am one of the admins who have commented on the currently open WP:AE thread in which the enforcement of the topic ban applying to Captain Occam has been requested. I am concerned that this clarification request is intended to be an attempt to preempt or delay action on the enforcement request, which the participating admins so far have determined is warranted. I would appreciate it if arbitrators could indicate whether the enforcement request can be acted upon without regard to this clarification request. Sandstein 09:46, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
CO notes that the discretionary sanctions from the race and intelligence arbitration case are defined as covering "the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed."
However, I don't think the follow-on claim that he had assumed that the scope of my topic ban was the same as the scope of the discretionary sanction
is much of an excuse when the unban conditions were very clear:
The scope of his 2010 topic ban is modified from "race and intelligence related articles, broadly construed" to "the race and intelligence topic area, broadly construed".
and this was explicitly posted on his user talk page upon unbanning by Opabinia regalis. About 10 hours later, the notification posted onto his user talk page again by an ArbCom clerk, who then removed the duplication and uncollapsed OR's original post so that this is how his user talk page appeared. CO then archived the talk page and the notification is still present in archive 7 of his user talk page. Maybe CO forgot the terms of his unbanning. Maybe he did make an assumption of what the scope of his ban was. But, in either case, he received the notification – which was presumably also covered in off-wiki discussions of his site ban appeal with ArbCom – and if he truly believed that interfering even at the edges of the area of the case and topic ban was within the bounds of acceptable behaviour following his long site ban, then he deserves the sanction that must follow.
I have posted at AE on a subject related to the one Sandstein raises. If comments from BMK are to be believed, CO emailed to comment on edits in the R&I area, which certainly should be prohibited by the terms of his ban. If it is not covered by the letter of the rules, ArbCom should look at closing this hole in all of its topic bans. Even if it is not, however, the spirit of a topic ban after an ArbCom case and years of site banning must cover such actions. I think the following is appropriate:
EdChem (talk) 10:43, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
I think it is worth noting that BMK has said that the original email from Captain Occam was not in itself particularly offensive, except that it dealt largely with a topic from which CO is banned, but that at the same time other users have come forward on the AE request to report similar email experiences with OC. This is a pattern of attempting to influence the R&I topic through email lobbying.
Such emails are not, on my reading, currently covered by topic bans; but it is looking likely (see the current state of the RFC CO links above) that policy will be amended to explicitly include use of Wikipedia email in the scope of bans. At the very least, the committee should wait and see what the outcome of the RFC is; if it clarifies policy either way then there is nothing for arbcom to do here.
As for this incident, it is looking likely that the AE will close with Captain Occam being indeffed as a normal admin action for disruption / NOTHERE. If that is the outcome, there is a lot of ground to cover between there and an appeal to the committee. GoldenRing (talk) 12:05, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
The point of broad topic bans is to keep the editor away as far as possible from the topic. As it is clear Occam isnt interested in obeying the spirit of the ban from the topic, and you cannot monitor what he sends via the email this user feature, just disable his email access, reiterate the topic ban covers anything related to race & intelligence and let the AE action take its course. If he wants to pursue his R&I crusade offwiki, make it so he does it off-wiki. But he will keep doing it, as anyone with half a brain knew he was going to when he was unblocked. It really doesnt matter what restrictions you place, he will continute to try and further his agenda. All you are really doing is pushing the problem elsewhere. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:54, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Just noting for the committee that I closed the AE thread as an indefinite block as a regular admin action (not AE) per the emerging consensus there, and disabled access to email. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:56, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
It seems to me that by opening this ARCA, Captain Occam has given his tacit permission for the text of his first e-mail to me to be shared with the Committee if they decide to take this on. If I am correct in this assumption, I have no objection to this, and will forward it to the Commmittee in whatever way they desire. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:46, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Cinteotl at 19:10, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
In this AE case, I provided multiple cites to objectively tendentious editing, where Niteshift36 ignored my reasonable requests to provide sources for material he wanted to include in the article. He did not dispute any of this in his AE statement. The AE was closed with the notation "no violation," Which I don't believe is consistent with the evidence. I'm asking for a clarification of the finding, Specifically, I'm looking for answers to the following:
If the answer to any of these is "no," please explain.
Newyorkbrad This is not an appeal. It is a request for clarification. If this is not the proper venue for clarification, please point me to the proper venue. Cinteotl (talk) 17:55, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
In response to Kevin: I just found the procedure you mentioned, about an hour or two ago. I will contact the enforcing admin. I've also requested on the Clerk's message board that this matter be closed. Thank you. Cinteotl (talk) 00:18, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
This is starting to look like harassment. Even an editor that I quite often disagree with in terms of content didn't see a violation. Since this is not a discussion of the content, there's really little for me to contribute. The complainant apparently has questions for the closer, not me. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:14, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Agree with Newyorkbrad below, don't think this is worth the Committee's attention. AE request presented limited evidence, none of which was actionable, and the two other admins who opined before I closed the thread felt the same way. Best, Lord Roem ~ (talk) 03:33, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
any interested users may, after discussion with the administrator in question, appeal the dismissal [of an AE report] to the Arbitration Committee at "ARCA"" (emphasis added). @Cinteotl:, can you clarify whether there was discussion with the administrator declining to impose sanctions (Lord Roem)? Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 23:44, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Anythingyouwant at 23:01, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Regarding the article edit, I don't recall that any admins in this case disputed that I was correcting an extremely obvious BLP violation; I also don't recall any of the admins disputing that the BLP violation was biased (3RRNO exempts "Removing violations of the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy that contain libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material"). Based on this AE proceeding, I gather that correcting even the most obviously biased BLP violation will not be exempt from sanctions unless the violation is simultaneously very extreme (like replacing Trump's image with that of a chimpanzee), and I promise to infer this from 3RRNO in the future, though I urge that 3RRNO be edited to actually say so. Please note: I took this to the article talk page after citing "WP:BLP" in an article edit summary only once, so it’s obvious I wasn’t jamming the material back in repetitively.
Regarding the comment at my user talk page, I have always known that user talk comments can be blockable if they are nasty or irrelevant enough, but I don't recall getting any civility warning in the past regarding comments at my user talk. Once I realized that my user talk might arguably be subject to the Trump-page sanctions or the post-1932 sanctions (i.e. more than usual civility restrictions) I deleted this relatively mild comment,[63] and told NeilN I had deleted it.[64]
Neil notes that, "On January 20th they were given a one month topic ban from Donald Trump." Here's a link to that January proceeding at AE. That one-month block was not for any edit I made to any article or any talk page, but rather was for an allegedly inaccurate edit summary, which I honestly and reasonably thought was indeed accurate. Anyway, jumping from that kind of narrow, limited-duration topic-ban at the Trump page to this kind of broad topic-ban is a huge and unwarranted leap under the circumstances. Incidentally and FWIW, I do enjoy editing other non-political areas of Wikipedia, but only in combination with the political ones, so it seems that this would be a lifetime ban from the project. It's rather punitive given that I removed my user talk comment and will consider myself warned about that, and given that I also promise to interpret 3RRNO as exempting correction not of all obviously biased BLP violations, but rather only the most egregious of those violations. Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:01, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
@User:My very best wishes, usually I don’t come to ArbCom, because it’s not such an onerous penalty, and anyway (frankly) I don’t have huge confidence in ArbCom. But, as Neil said here at this page, this is “[p]robably the best place for this one as WP:AE would largely be a rehash and WP:AN would likely become a mess.” Anyway, where are your best wishes for me??? Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:25, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
@User:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris, please don’t delete comments by other editors.[70] Thanks. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:16, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
@Arbitrators, User:Mastcell says here at this page, "Anythingyouwant is lying. He's lying. To you." I would appreciate an opportunity to respond carefully to that charge, which is very false, and which relates to events of January 2018. I have to get some sleep now, but hope you will give me time tomorrow to briefly prove Mastcell wrong. As for the pre-2018 events that Mastcell cites (none of which Neil brought up), I'm not sure that ArbCom is interested or willing to hear anything I have to say about them; Mastcell omits a great deal, just like Neil has declined to address or acknowledge here any facts that might not work in his favor. So, unless ArbCom indicates willingness for me to address pre-2018 events (including when I have successfully invoked the BLP exemption, and also Mastcell's own involvement in some of the matters he has mentioned), I won't. But I do plan to address Mastcell's false accusation that I am a liar, which I find extremely offensive, and which relates to events of January this year. That accusation by Mastcell is apparently designed to inflate a relatively tame comment at my user talk page (Neil explicitly says he is not disputing the BLP exemption) into an indefinite and broad topic ban. I almost hope that ArbCom endorses Neil's indefinite topic ban, so that my Wikipedia nightmare will be over. For now, I must sleep. Then I will disprove Mastcell's accusation, which I find very typical of him. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:14, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
MastCell is wrong. Here is a link to that January proceeding. Unlike MastCell, I will describe this matter chronologically. MastCell is correct that MelanieN called my two articleedits “a ‘cute trick’, a two-part move based on attempts to game the DS sanctions.” She did so at 01:21, 23 January 2018.[72] I then responded to MelanieN:
Coffee said "I fully understand using the two edits to have to copy then paste", but you attribute the two separate edits to conniving and scheming on my part. Would you have done it in one edit or two? Obviously, it was much easier to do in two edits. Please, I have no problem considering them as one single edit for purposes of retrospective analysis, in which case my same rationale justified the edit summary: I was reverting the insertion of this new material by moving it, given that "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert." Please, a week-long ban for a mere connotation via edit summary? I can't believe you seriously think that's appropriate. Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:51, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Then Melanie answered:
Anything, I might well have done the move in two edits. But my edit summaries would have said that was what I would doing: "deleting section preparatory to a move", “moving”. I would not have claimed that the first one was challenging content by reverting it, as you did. As a matter of fact, in discussion at your talk page you doubled down on that claim, insisting to me that your “main objective was to remove disputed material”,[11] because it was “riddled” with “biased POV-pushing” that you would rather have removed from the article.[12] One minute later you restored that horribly biased section back into the article, while proclaiming that nobody else could restore it because … well, because one minute earlier you had challenged the content as so biased and POV that it shouldn’t be in the article. --MelanieN (talk) 04:14, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Yesterday, here at this page, I said, “User:MelanieN, for example, acknowledged that those two edits were fully permissible, putting side the edit summaries.” MastCell says this last statement cannot be true while MelanieN's statement at 01:21, 23 January 2018 is also true. MastCell surgically omits that I disputed that statement by MelanieN at 01:51, 23 January 2018 (UTC), and surgically omits that she then answered at 04:14, 23 January 2018 (UTC): “I might well have done the move in two edits. But my edit summaries would have said that was what I would doing.” MastCell has cherrypicked a statement by MelanieN without telling ArbCom that her statement was followed by further discussion. The admin who brought that charge against me in January has left the project;[73] and MastCell’s accusation now that I have lied is absurd. It is also very characteristic of MastCell's tactics once he sets a goal for himself. I also still disagree with Melanie that there’s anything inconsistent about moving a section lower down in an article, while arguing that the material in the section ought to be selectively scattered chronologically throughout the article. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:56, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
A comment from AE: “Wikipedia’s most effective means of censorship is not to directly modify content, but rather to get rid of editors. You can judge for yourself how true that is.“ Anythingyouwant (talk) 11:06, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
I have no idea why I cannot get an answer to my question here, nor why the outrageous personal attack against me on this page by User:MastCell has been met with complete silence thus far. So sorry to be inconvenient. So sorry to question the limits of discretion. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:20, 3 May 2018 (UTC). I suppose it’s within arbitrator discretion to not explain why something is within admin discretion. I didn’t do anything in January other than move down some new material when there was no consensus to keep it where it was, and I don’t think anyone ought to have discretion to sanction me for doing nothing wrong. Just my opinion, of course. Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:11, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm going to copy some of my rationale for the topic ban here: "...I had another look at Anythingyouwant's editing history. On January 20th they were given a one month topic ban from Donald Trump. On January 27th they took a break from editing. They returned on April 13th and went back to Donald Trump a couple days after. On the 19th they started the attacks that landed them here. This indicates they will simply wait until their topic ban expires and then continue their disruption. When reading their "discretionary sanctions applies to user talk pages? really??" comments above, I was struck how similar this was to their behavior outlined in the last case here. Same gaming, same wikilawyering. I don't think a short block will work here based on their Jan-Apr editing history but an indefinite topic ban might. Let them edit in other areas to show they can contribute non-disruptively and have them appeal rather than having the ban simply expire. I'd go with a blanket American Politics ban."
No admin agreed that Anythingyouwant's edit could claim the BLP exemption and there is a civility restriction on the article, making their comments both on their talk page and at the AE request unacceptable. I originally proposed a three month topic ban on Donald Trump but their subsequent comments, along with those of other participants in the request, changed my thinking. In particular, Anythingyouwant asserts and continues to assert above that his one month topic ban "was for an allegedly inaccurate edit summary". Looking at the appeal, members will see that admins unanimously rejected this thinking, with Timotheus Canens stating, "We have indeffed people for shenanigans like this". Given Anythingyouwant had approximately fifty-sixty edits in total between the time the topic ban was imposed and the start of the enforcement request in question, and that they simply stopped editing for over two months, I believed the sanction should not be time-limited so it could be simply waited out but rather indefinite so any appeal had to be bolstered by evidence of constructive contributions in other areas. --NeilN talk to me 00:08, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
The latest statement by Anythingyouwant is another example of continued misrepresentations. "The comment at my user talk was not unsupported, given that WP:BLP had just been violated, and I deleted the comment anyway when I realized that discretionary sanctions might apply at user talk, just to be on the safe side." No admin agreed that the edit met the WP:3RRNO BLP-exemption criteria and they deleted the comment well after discussion had started about the AE request. [74], [75]. This is not Anythingyouwant deleting the comment "anyway" after having an epiphany and "just to be on the safe side". The deletion came after they were explicitly told multiple times that user talk pages were not free-for-all zones. This is the same type of behavior that got their one week topic ban in January put back up to a month upon appeal. --NeilN talk to me 21:06, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
I commented on the AE related to the fact that while one can argue that the edit was resolving a BLP violation, 3RRNO does not consider it the type that is exceptional under 3RR or for any article under a edit-warring DS concern. While I fully agree with the edit, 3RR is pretty clear that edit warring over it was not appropriate. Some type of action was necessary, and AYW's prior record here (the previous 1 month ban in the area) does warrant a longer one That said, the jump from a suggested 3 month topic ban to indef makes little sense based on the AE discussion, particularly given that the edit AYW did was eventually accepted and added to the page after talk page discussion. I feel this is punishing AYW for having a certain POV, which from their edits seems difficult to necessarily identity, outside of the fact they end up not disagreeing with the majority of editors in that space. I do agree their behavior at their previous appeal [76] feels like gaming and agree with how that closed, I'm just not seeing anything like that here. They felt omission of a certain statement violated BLP, did a 1RR to retail it believing they were right per 3RRNO, and then went to the talk page. That's not gaming anything. Some short topic ban is needed, but not an indef. --Masem (t) 23:48, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Since I have never edited Donald Trump [77], and I have never edited User talk:Anythingyouwant [78], I have no idea why I'm listed as a party to this request. Unless something tying me to this dispute can be presented, I would ask that my name be removed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:29, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
I am an involved editor with regard to the Donald Trump article. I am commenting here since I was pinged by Anythingyouwant. I would like to set the record straight. Anything’s description of my input at the January discussion is incorrect. He claims that I found his two edits “fully permissible” and disapproved only of the edit summaries. The truth is that I described his two edits as a “cute trick” and an “attempt to game the DS sanctions.” His goal was to move material within the article - a move that had been disputed at the talk page and consensus had not been not reached. His method of moving it was, first to delete it as a “challenge by reverting,” claiming the material was riddled with bias and POV pushing - and then to immediately re-add it, without any changes, to the location where he wanted it to be, with an edit summary saying that nobody could put it anywhere else in the article without consensus. I regarded this as basically fraudulent and said so. The fact that he is now trying to re-litigate that situation by blatantly misrepresenting my input does not argue well for a relaxation of his sanctions. --MelanieN (talk) 03:44, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
And another cute one by Anythingyouwant: In the "Statement by SPECIFICO" section, Mdann removed SPECIFICO's comment as a clerk action. Anythingyouwant then selectively restored part of the first sentence of SPECIFICO’s comment - namely, the part that was a little bit complimentary.[84] Is it permissible for an editor to write in another editor’s section like that, and to manipulate that editor’s comment for their own purposes? Just wondering. --MelanieN (talk) 17:39, 1 May 2018 (UTC) P.S. I guess not since Mdann has now reverted it. --MelanieN (talk) 17:44, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
I am not a party to this dispute, but I did comment at the AE discussion, have made a total of 7 edits to Donald Trump since September 2017, and have participated on the TP of that article. I much prefer editing equine articles where the whole horse is the topic. [FBDB] I did request leniency for Anythingyouwant at AE as evidenced by this diff, and will repeat the crux of my comment: "My perception of AYW's attempt to add the denial to the lede was that it was a GF edit based on NPOV and BLP. AYW did go to the article TP in an attempt to discuss the inclusion. I don't think irritating another editor at a TP justifies a block or TB. My interest in this case is more focused on the NPOV argument which I see as being inseparable from BLP. Prior to this case being filed, I posted a tough question on the TP of TonyBallioni hoping to get some thoughtful input. The diff I used in that same discussion included AYW's edit as an example." I quickly learned that AP2 articles can be highly controversial, so stepping over the DS restriction line is not unexpected; however, in this case, I truly believe it was done inadvertently. Atsme📞📧 03:40, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Today in an AE complaint against editor "KEC" one of the responding administrator said:
To assist those responding in offering informed commentary, can administrators who commented here (or in the original complaint) please clarify:
Thank you. James J. Lambden (talk) 19:13, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
First, this isn't a "Request for Clarification and Amendment". Is there something unclear about the sanction (which would need clarification) or self-contradictory (which would require an amendment)? No. This is a straight up APPEAL of the sanction. And the place for APPEALS is WP:AE itself.
Second, this is becoming a pattern. Fairly recently another user - Dheyward - also got sanctioned, then appealed to like fifteen different venues (yes, that is a purposeful but illustrative exaggeration), then finally came here and you guys granted his appeal (though it's not really your job to do so, except in extraordinary circumstances). I warned you then this would happen. Anyone who gets sanctioned at WP:AE will now come running to ArbCom with an appeal - if they can't get one anywhere else - which sort of defeats the whole purpose of WP:AE in the first place (which was, if any of you where around long enough to remember, precisely so that ArbCom wouldn't have to deal with this kind of stuff and could concentrate on the "big stuff"). If you persist in second guessing admins at WP:AE (and god knows they make mistakes), what's the point of having WP:AE? Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:45, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Right, here it is. At least one previous instance where Anythingyouwant tried to do the exact same thing, claim BLP to get his way, when in fact it was pretty clear he was trying to just GAME the DS restriction: "Since Sandstein has asked that I handle this, and there does seem to be agreement that this was not BLP exempt and that Anythingyouwant knew what they were doing, I'll go ahead and resolve this: Anythingyouwant is placed on 0RR for 1 month on Roy Moore and any topic related to the United States Senate special election in Alabama, 2017, broadly construed. ". Closed by User:TonyBallioni.
Now, given that this exact sequence of events unfolded before (sans winding up here) what do you think are the chances that when Anythingyouwant made their latest-DS-violating-edit that led to their ban, they were thinking "gee shucks, I can't possibly be violating discretionary sanctions here because this is such an obvious BLP issue no one will ever object by golly!" The dude did exact same thing before and got sanctioned for it. He was trying again (you got to ask him why he though it'd work this time). It didn't work this time either. Hell, if anything he deserves another sanction for trying the same game twice (points off for lack of originality!), just as a lesson to be more creative about his WP:GAMEing in the future.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:46, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
The issue here is not the diffs provided by Anythingyouwant in their statement, but this AE discussion about Anythingyouwant. Was anything improperly done by admins? At the end of this AE discussion (at the very bottom of the thread), two experienced admins agreed with NeilN and one suggested a softer restriction. No doubts, such sanctions are always a matter of personal judgement (the "discretion"), and the judgement can be different. According to current rules, such sanctions do not require a consensus of admins. Thinking logically, everyone who has been sanctioned on AE should complain to Arbcom in a hope that the consensus of Arbcom administrators will be different from the good faith judgement by a few or a single AE administrator. But of course not everyone runs immediately to Arbcom, because at least some people tend to admit their own mistakes and value time of other contributors.
Should such complaints be encouraged? Yes, if there is an obvious error of judgement by an AE administrator. However, when it happens, the most appropriate way is to make an appeal directly on WP:AE. In this particular case, I think Anythingyouwant knew that his appeal on WP:AE will not be granted because the sanction was a reasonable judgement by several admins, and it would be harder to argue his case here after the decline of appeal on WP:AE. Therefore, Anythingyouwant went directly to Arbcom. My very best wishes (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Sanctioning administrator User:NeilN makes it explicitly clear above that AYW was sanctioned for a comment on his talk page. However, since that talk page is not under discretionary sanctions, then the sanction placed as “arbitration enforcement” seems out of process. Many editors, including a couple who have commented here, have certainly made somewhat uncivil posts recently. Are we really going to be sanctioning editors on this basis? Mr Ernie (talk) 17:29, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
I don't know why so many people seem to think that user talk pages are somehow exempt from DS, but, while yes Anythingyouwant's entire talk page isn't under DS, certain edits are per: standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. Thus, Anythingyouwant's edit on his talk page was certainly about American Politics, and thus under the discretionary sanctions, and under the many other policies we have.
Even beyond the wording, the point of DS is reduce this sort of crap — bad faith accusations of POV pushing, subverting the rules etc— and to instead have have decorum where we can constructively build the encyclopedia with civil discussion. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:45, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Removed by clerks - feel free to rewrite per talk. Mdann52 (talk) 15:06, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
The edit that led to this was soon added anyway to the article by consensus decision. Anythingyouwant erred here and has erred before as have many of us so it seems to me the penalty was excessive.--MONGO 03:08, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
Amazed the character assassinations going on here, with editors like Mastcell calling Anythingyouwant a liar, saying he's lying, etc., "Anythingyouwant is lying. He's lying. To you. Right here, in the course of trying to convince you that he shouldn't be sanctioned for deceptiveness." and SPECIFICO with their personal attacks as well, stating clearly above that Anythingyouwant, "most dogged and resourceful POV pushers and disruptive presences" "Anythingyouwant is a poster child for NOTHERE editing. He is a relentless POV-pushing wikilawyer." Very odd that some of the people Mastcell seems to call good faith editors I might not feel the same about. Very discouraging.--MONGO 12:38, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
Several editors have stated that sanctions at issue were imposed because of one or two specific edits (one article edit and possibly one talk page edit; see AYW's original post to this appeal). The admins who assented to the sanctions also cited other factors including "the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude and continued jibes on display here" (User:NeilN), "AYWs long history of battleground editing, and for the 'one of the anointed ones' crap" (User:Bishonen), "the aspersions and general battleground attitude on display is deeply unimpressive" (User:GoldenRing), and so on. The impression is that the sanctions were levied for an ongoing pattern of behavior and because briefer or less severe sanctions had proven ineffective, rather than a single edit (or two). But I could be wrong so you Arbcom folks might want to ask the admins themselves. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:09, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
@Anythingyouwant:, that was a copy-paste accident. Apologies. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:20, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
First review some of Anythingyouwant's relevant history:
So it's well-documented that Anythingyouwant has a recurring issue with trying to game the system, and that he knows, or should know, that his judgement is poor when it comes to invoking the BLP exemption for edit-warring. In that context, his indefinite topic ban (for, again, misusing the BLP exemption to justify editing violations) seems proportionate and appropriate, if not long overdue.
Now look at Anythingyouwant's behavior in this request:
Anythingyouwant is lying. He's lying. To you. Right here, in the course of trying to convince you that he shouldn't be sanctioned for deceptiveness.
I see MelanieN also called this out above, more politely than I have, but there is no polite gloss for this, and it's part of a pattern of behavior (which I've linked, in part, above). I don't know why Anythingyouwant seems incapable of engaging forthrightly with his fellow editors, but I'm not sure it matters. This sort of behavior is poisonous to the editing environment, and good-faith contributors deserve to be protected from it. MastCell Talk 05:08, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
I was messaged by AYW, asking me to come here as a party to the dispute. Not a party, I just commented at AE (and I do see this has already been addressed, and AYW has amended the list of parties). I think a topic ban is entirely appropriate, although I would suggest NeilN may wish to avoid closing AE sanction discussions and implementing the outcome when he has been participating in the discussion. In this instance, it would not have made much difference, as AYW does need to be restricted from editing in areas where he is mentally incapable of maintaining a neutral approach to editing, such as politics; I think indefinite is more than I would have gone for, but it's within the realms of reasonableness, and so the ground for appealing this AE sanction are very shaky. Note that I don't care about the incivility on the talk page, which is a red herring, that should not have been a reason for the sanction, and shouldn't have been listed in the AE submission by MrX, as it just muddied the waters. But we are where we are. This edit was sufficient for the article editing restrictions to be triggered. Their previous shorter-term sanctions clearly did not induce AYW to amend their behaviour, and so a longer-term measure is appropriate. Fish+Karate 09:42, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
I have read some of this incredibly lengthy thread; I'd recommend the committee simply take up American Politics 3 if they feel this appeal has merit. As a separate suggestion, perhaps a "post-2000 American politics" topic area would be beneficial? power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:58, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by GoldenRing at 22:18, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
This case introduced infobox probation, which restricts an editor subject to it from making more than one comment in discussing the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article.
A recent AE request has been closed with a sanction imposed on Cassianto because he commented three times in an infobox discussion on Mary Shelley (diff, diff, diff) and twice in an infobox discussion on Stanley Kubrick (diff, diff, diff).
Whether this closure is correct turns on whether "more than one comment in discussing the inclusion of exclusion of an infobox" means more than one comment in such a discussion, or more than one comment which directly addresses the inclusion or exclusion of such an infobox. I and another admin (Sandstein) have taken the former interpretation, but others have taken the latter and it does seem there is some ambiguity in the wording. It would therefore be useful if the committee could clarify what is the intent of this wording.
I interpreted the sanction the same way as GoldenRing above and Euryalus below. In this regard, it seems clear enough to me. Sandstein 05:59, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
As I stated at the AE request, this restriction really is poorly phrased. As it was written and voted on, Cassianto is "indefinitely restricted from ... making more than one comment in discussing the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article
".
The comments made on Shelley and Kubrick are not about "discussing the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article", and so bringing measures against him for a supposed breach is a very poor step.
Now, if the aim of the committee was to make sure Cassianto made no more than one comment in an IB discussion, then the restriction is poorly phrased and should be ditched or re-written to actually say what you meant it to mean. Given the restriction wording is so imprecise, and given Cassianto has not breached that wording, I struggle to see how action can be taken against. Bad law leads to bad decisions, and that is just as true when it is an ArbCom restriction. - SchroCat (talk) 22:39, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
@ power~enwiki: while it may have been what the restriction was "supposed to address", it is atrociously written, if that is the case. When I first read the proposal, my first thought was as I have outlined: that it doesn't stop multiple comments, if those comments are not about the IB. It's nonsense to hang a man on such a spuriously phrased diktat, and if ArbCom can't hold their hands up and say 'yes, we screwed up on that, let's fix it' (and Euryalus' comments suggest at least one member can't), then I see nothing but the restrictions being twisted however someone wants it, rather than addressing the problem.
@Euryalus: Well done on finally realising that one of the problems with IB discussions is the "reopening recently closed infobox debates": something that has been raised time after time, and something I emailed a couple of Arbs about directly, and they agreed it was a problem. What ArbCom did is to almost completely ignore the pushing, the ongoing grief time after time on the same articles (by the same individuals, many of whom were pushing for a pound of Cassianto's flesh here and at the case). It's something that is completely obvious to anyone who has looked at a couple of the threads and archives. It's a shame this simple step wasn't undertaken by ArbCom, because—as we've seen on a couple of articles already—it doesn't matter what ArbCom decided, there is still the ongoing ignoral of any consensus by users as long as the question is raised again and again and again (and yes, often with the use of IPs and sock puppets). And when people like Cass get frustrated at the ongoing pushing, it's the lazy and easy way to crucify him, rather than look at the root problem of the pushers. To be entirely honest, all the ArbCom decision has done, is to hand the pro-IB brigade an easier way to badger and push people to overstep a nebulous line and allow any of the more heavy-handed admins to put another notch on their block stick.
I suggest that you, and your colleagues, gather the strength to say that you messed up on the wording here ("indefinitely restricted from ... making more than one comment in discussing the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article
" is crap and means two things – and you can't just say 'we didn't mean that, so we'll just hang anyone out to dry we don't like'. You should have done something like: "indefinitely restricted from ... making more than one comment in a discussion about the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article
".)
Now I have pointed out one of the many errors in the original decision (there are others that I am sure I'll have to point out at later clarifications), and given you better wording, it's time for you to put your collective heads together, to lift the sanction on Cassianto, and implement the new wording, which is more than sufficient. I have no doubt that ArbCom will try and slither out of what is quite clear and obvious, but hope—while not springing eternal—does still flicker that you can do the right thing at last. – SchroCat (talk) 07:32, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
one comment is all they get if they're under probation. Not "one comment on topic", just "one comment"", but if that's what you wanted, you should have voted for it and pointed out that the restriction as it is written is capable of more than one interpretation by an honest reader. What you and your colleagues voted on is certainly not what you want it to be. If you want to turn a blind eye to such an egregious error, that's all well and good, but it does make even more of a mockery if you can't collectively hold your hand up and accept responsibility for your errors. - SchroCat (talk) 16:33, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
perfectly clear" when describing it: particularly true given the people who have said it's poorly written (including Euryalus who said the y"
agree re the need for a rewording" and GoldenRing who has said that "
there is some ambiguity in the wording"). I guess you're still only seeing what you want to see, or maybe you just can't see that there may be ambiguity – although several others have said that while the intent may have been one way, the crap wording is not as clear as you may want it. I'm not sure why you see the need to class an honest interpretation that differs from yours as a "
willful misinterpretation" [sic] – perhaps you need to remind yourself of WP:AGF, even if you can't bring yourself to admit that the committee have made an honest mistake with the wording that they would be well advised to examine more closely. Such sloppiness only aids in the making of poor administrative actions. – SchroCat (talk) 19:21, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I just don't think the underlying complaint is serious" what horseshit. Thank you OR for proving just what a joke ArbCom are, and just how unseriously you take the things that are put in front of you. I suggest you read WP:AGF a minimum of three times., Next time, write shit like that on a scrap of paper and throw it in the bin before engaging your brain and writing something that makes sense. If you've been part of the process that hasn't actually dealt with the "infobox problem" in toto, and voted in favour of such a piss-poorly worded decision, then best to keep your involvement to a minimum, if you can't be useful. Fuck me - I thought Arbs were supposed to bring light to a process, rather than heat - this is one of the most ridiculous posts I've seen in a long time, and that includes the dross I have to read from trolls, POV pushers and IB warriors. Still, at least you've made one editor happy (and one who posts most heavily on IB's, particularly as they make up 10% of all posts on to your talk page); they've recently managed to re-align all arguments to say "I wrote the article, it's my choice". It's nice to know that OWNership can be used to add an IB, but woe betide anyone who even hints it can be used to remove one that is superfluous. Good to see double standards from IB warriors and the sarcastic ramblings of a member of ArbCom. - SchroCat (talk) 06:41, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Incompetent, corrupt, malicious, and biased. The entire case summed up rather succinctly, I think. CassiantoTalk 23:38, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
@Banedon, well arn't you a charming individual. So not only do I receive sanctions for a case that has nothing to do with me, but if you had your way, I'd also receive sanctions in case I break sanctions in the future. Do you have anything constructive to say, or are you here just to troll? CassiantoTalk 09:09, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
Worm That Turned, a "poorly written remedy and a willful misinterpretation" often go hand in glove. If you and your friends had taken more care over the wording, this situation wouldn't have occurred. Can you prove it was willful? If not, I'd care for you to assume good faith. The wording says: "making more than one comment in discussing the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article". I've looked at the diffs above and I can't seem to find where this has occurred? Maybe you could point them out? Or maybe, like the rest of your chums, you'll find it easier to ignore me, just as you all did with my emails I've been sending to the committee email address. CassiantoTalk 19:22, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
power~enwiki, how about "you are only allowed to make one comment in any one infobox discussion". Done. Simple. Precise. Intelligible. None of this smoke and mirror, licked finger in the air nonsense. Had the committee have answered me emails to them, rather than do what they usually do and take the easy option to ignore them - they seem to be quite good at taking the easy option - then this could all have been avoided. CassiantoTalk 06:29, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Seeing as I'm being ignored on email and here, I'll take the unuasual step to ping all of you, individually. Alex Shih, BU Rob13, DGG, Doug Weller, Euryalus, KrakatoaKatie, Newyorkbrad, Opabinia regalis, Premeditated Chaos, RickinBaltimore, Worm That Turned, in light of your eventual acknowledgement that the wording was below par, and this motion to now fix the ambiguaous wording, despite what you, KrakatoaKatie, rather pompously, assume to be easy enough for everyone to understand, I trust Sandstein's topic ban will now be lifted? As things stand now, not only would this whole new motion be counter productive, as I can't discuss infoboxes at all now, but the terrible way in which it was written - acknowledged by at least two of you over the last week or so - resulted in you all setting me up to fail. Secondly, my "offending" comments were not about "removal or adding" an infobox, but we're responses to other editors. For a committee that prides itself on fairness and impartiality, ignoring this, or allowing it to stand, would be wholly unfair and would only go some way in reinforcing people's perceptions that each and everyone one of you have been thoroughly dishonest. CassiantoTalk 07:57, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Doug Weller, don't bother, I'll do it:
2 April 2018 @ 09:55 "Now that the committee have managed to make the infobox situation even worse than it was before, maybe a representative from this joke of a committee can be so kind as to visit Stanley Kubrick and tell the troublesome (I doubt that I'm afforded "parliamentary privilege", so redact) person on the talk page, who's causing more trouble, to go away and do something else. SchroCat is introducing some very good arguments that are being disruptively ignored. It's also not fair on him having to wax lyrical with this person when it's ArbCom's incompetence to address the real problem that has caused all this."
30 April 2018 @ 08:38 "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Stanley_Kubrick&diff=838905735&oldid=834215524 Where are any one of you with your box of stupid DS alerts? Or was that just a flash in the pan? Maybe, seeing as the case was about me all along, and nothing to do with infoboxes or the behaviour of other editors, none of you can be arsed anymore as I'm no longer around? Job done guys and girls, well done. You've played a blinder and really sorted this problem out."
So, why no response or explaination for your dishonesty? CassiantoTalk 09:35, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
BU Rob13, sorry to have to remind you, but this case, apparantly, was never about me. It was about civility on all sides. That is why this case, you, your colleagues, and the sanctions are all dishonest. CassiantoTalk 19:19, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Premeditated Chaos, those at AN were there to grind axes and not to preside over the committee's sloppy writing. More dishonesty. CassiantoTalk 19:22, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
BU Rob13, incorrect. I was the only one to walk away with sanctions, one of which was not to delete infoboxes. Kindly, you allowed me to retain the right to add them, presumably, because the committee are biased when it comes to boxes. How about the disruption of continually starting sections on the talk pages, every few months, by people who delete hidden notices not to add infoboxes prior to consensus forming? How about the fraudulent way in which this case was filed? What makes you think Volvoglia gives a shiny shit about your silly "admonishment"? What about the harassment of content creators who regularly have to kowtow to a bunch of unknowns who have never even so much as fixed a punctuation error on the article they seem to care so much about? None of that was addressed. If I were to start section after section, RfC after RfC, in order to get my own way to delete a box on an article that had one, I would've been here in next to no time. I think you need to face the fact that your case has achieved nothing at all and has only aided more confusion for the future. CassiantoTalk 19:38, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
BU Rob13, please do tell me how naming a case "civility in infobox discussions" address' the issues infobox discussions have? Surely, it is arbcom's job to get to the root cause of civility in infobox discussions and not concentrate on the by-product of such discussions. I will put it to you that you are biased and dishonest in equal measures. But I take my hat off to you for engaging here; it seems the rest of your chums are conveniently ignoring the issues I've raised. CassiantoTalk 22:01, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Alex Shih, BU Rob13, DGG, Doug Weller, Euryalus, KrakatoaKatie, Newyorkbrad, Opabinia regalis, Premeditated Chaos, RickinBaltimore, Worm That Turned, tell me, what does the committee think of edits, such as this, where a hidden notice is ignored and a box added regardless? look, it happened here, too. And here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here (with note deleted), and here, and here (added by the saintly Volvoglia). Or maybe you'd all like to offer a comment about this edit where the hidden note is edited to the contrary, and a box added? What about this, where the hidden note is deleted altogether? All this is from 2018...alone! How about we move onto Cary Grant, with this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, repeat ad infinitum. This is since July 2017, but goes back further. With as much disruption as that - and this is just on two of the many articles - is it any wonder sane, rational people like me lose their temper from time to time? But you did the right thing in imposing sanctions on me as clearly, I'm the real problem here. CassiantoTalk 07:39, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Euryalus, you say: "The aim of the restriction is to prevent those on 'infobox probation' from endlessly re-engaging in the debate and helping turn it into a slugging match." really? So how does this restriction cure the problem of the disruption occurring in the first place? As I've proved above, people are disruptively adding boxes, despite a consensus being in place. Oh, but wait, consensus can change, can't it, despite it not changing on the various attempts to shoe-horn in an infobox every week. Wikipedia's lame fucking attempt to half-acknowledge an infobox problem, but not actually deal with it, is the real reason I am subject to these sanctions. This is why, people, you are a lame duck; sitting there, pontificating over civility, whilst at the same time, avoiding the elephant in the room. CassiantoTalk 08:02, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Premeditated Chaos, I think you'll find, as per my emails to you all, I was trying to report the disruption on Kubrick, which you all ignored. So don't give me all that old tosh. It's a reaction I've become oh too familiar with since this pantomime began. CassiantoTalk 15:39, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
I think this point of clarification sums up the futility and stupidity of the original ruling. The Committee seem quite incapable of pulling together unambiguous sanctions, and this has been the case for quite some time (i.e. many ex-committees managed to foul up sanction wordings too). I wonder if we should lodge a case against Arbcom for rendering such hopeless and badly-phrased sanctions. Perhaps some training in how to write such proposals would be a good idea (I have considerable experience of this, should Arbcom wish to solicit my advice). Write down, in bullet form if it makes it easier, precisely what this sanction means. Leave no room for ambiguity. Essentially Arbcom are writing laws, or at least diktats here, and they should be bullet-proof. Go back to the drawing board and relate to the five pillars, don't create a stupid "one comment only" ruling which is absurd and unhelpful to just about everyone. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:35, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
The "One comment" rule is utterly stupid and should never have been added in the first place
We're basically saying "You cannot add, delete, restore or collapse infoboxes and you also cannot discuss it either"
It's one thing banning someone from infoboxes but it's another to also ban them from so much as discussing it either,
Delete the pointless rule, Untopic ban Cass and close this case. –Davey2010Talk 23:00, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
Maybe add an extra sentence at the end: "...making more than one comment in discussing the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article. This includes the entire thread and all subthreads, even if they are not directly related to infoboxes."
Having said that I interpret Cassianto's statement above as implying that he will reoffend, in which case it might be time to change the sanction to something harsher. Banedon (talk) 23:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
I have to wonder at what point Sandstein's contributions to AE are no longer useful. As seen many times before, Sandstein is quick on the trigger with a (usually) harsh sentence, without waiting for input from other admins. I thought best practice was to wait for input, especially with editors with as many valued contributions as Cassianto. It appears that Sandstein regularly receives so many questions about his AE actions that he had to create a FAQ. Surely this isn't the best we can do. Mr Ernie (talk) 01:57, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
If the discussion is about inclusion or exclusion of an infobox, then they only get one comment.but that is NOT what the restriction states. The restriction states
more than one comment in discussing the inclusion or exclusion...(emphasis mine). To have the restriction mean what you says it mean it should read
more than one comment in a discussion about.... As it currently stands, as long as Cassianto is not "discussing" the inclusion or exclusion, which the diffs prove he was not, then there is no need for sanctions. I don't get the rush to enforce unclear or confusing restrictions, instead of simply improving or clarifying the restrictions. Mr Ernie (talk) 19:10, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I agree with TRM that "infobox probation" is needlessly complicated; particularly compared to the alternative of a straight TBAN from infoboxes. While I found the wording of "one comment" fairly clear, apparently others did not; I have no suggestions as to how to improve that wording.
The problem of Cassianto over-reacting to (potentially bad-faith) new users discussing infoboxes was EXACTLY what the recent case was supposed to address; regardless of the exact wording of "infobox probation", imposing a topic ban under Discretionary Sanctions is a reasonable action here.
The ability for admins to make unilateral actions is the very essence of discretionary sanction as currently written; I'd advise those editors upset with that to suggest replacements for the wholesale replacement of DS, rather than making (IMO spurious) complaints about the specific action here. power~enwiki (π, ν) 06:15, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I agree wholeheartedly with Mr Ernie that Sandstein's involvement in these discretionary sanctions is a negative and unduly harsh one, and in this particular case I find his interpretation of what is certainly a poorly worded sanction to be completely without merit. Mixing trigger-happy administrators and incompetently worded sanctions is a recipe for disaster. I too have suffered from this kind of stupidity, enabled by the infamous "broadly construed" catch all. What the hell is that supposed to mean? How broadly? Eric Corbett 09:43, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
The wording was clear, but if you want to change it? Sure, go ahead. This is just the beginning. There will be more of this wikilawyering and hair-splitting going forward because Arbcom failed to act effectively by issuing a ban though it was more than warranted, and showed compassion in the face of contempt.. So get used to it. Whatever you decide will be tested further. Nothing ever will be clear. Coretheapple (talk) 13:14, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
We do need an Rfc on the infobox matter. Be willing to begin one, if anybody can suggest a location & the wording of the Rfc question. GoodDay (talk) 15:27, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
Now that the wording of the Arbcom decision is being clarified. Would it not be allowable to return to AN & see if the community would agree to lifting Cassianto's current t-ban? GoodDay (talk) 15:24, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Oh, how I loathe these proceedings. Y'all can work this out amongst yourselves, I'm here to correct some bad grammar (morphology?).
If the discussion is about inclusion or exclusion of an infobox, then they only get one comment. That bolded bit should read in a discussion about if your intent was to restrict comments "in discussions" rather than comments "discussing".
Oh, I see I'm not the only one who noticed that issue. I very much back what Mr Ernie is saying (about enforcement, I have no comment on Sandstein). Mr rnddude (talk) 20:09, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
Honestly? We're trying to distinguish between "discussing" and "a discussion"? This is not a useful debate to have. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:35, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Just a note that I have closed the appeal at AN of the sanction in question as declined. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:51, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
I agree the wording could use some clarification, even if the intent really is to keep someone subject to the restriction entirely out of these discussions after their initial comment due to a history of disruptiveness in such discussions. And that may well really be the intent. I don't particularly prefer that, and would rather see it be narrowed to infobox-related comments. Simple illustration of why: If someone posts "I think this should have an infobox. Oh, and were's the source for the claim that this subject was born in Botswana?", and someone subject to the restriction answers with "Infoboxes are stupid", then later answers with "PS: On the sourcing question, see [link to RS here]", the second isn't a response that should be actionable, since it wasn't about i-boxes and it was [at least potentially] helpful. My only concern, given the party in question and the real reason for the RfArb that lead to this result, is that such a tweak to the wording should not be gameable to engage in hostile pot-shots at other editors for infobox-related reasons while cleverly avoiding actually mentioning infoboxes explicitly; that would be WP:SANCTIONGAMING. So, the wording will need to be mulled over carefully. (That said, it is true that the broader interpretation is simpler, and a regular topic-ban would have been even more so.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:48, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
PS, to Davey2010: What you characterize as "utterly stupid" is actually just a standard topic ban, but made narrower and less restrictive than usual. The more usual approach is to just ban people from all discussions and other edits involving the topic (infoboxes in this case), broadly construed. So, yes, "don't change it and don't talk about it" is the entire point of a topic ban, which is instituted when a particular party seems constitutionally incapable or defiantly unwilling to not be disruptive when a particular topic is under discussion (or being edited directly). This special topic restriction – a topic ban but with a "you get one comment" escape valve – was narrowly crafted to be less of a blunderbuss, and that's the furthest thing from "utterly stupid". It just needs to be worded a bit more clearly (hopefully in the even narrower direction).
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:48, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Something troubles me about this restriction and how its worded: Those who are opposed to including an infobox in an article are at a disadvantage from the start. Take an article like Stanley Kubrick where an editorial decision was made not to have an infobox. We have people buzzing by practically once a month re-starting this debate. An RFC just closed on April 4 and on April 30 someone is already in there asking about it again. The effect on someone who's opposed to the infobox is mentally exhausting. It costs nothing to drive by and go, "How about an infobox?" but it costs a lot to continually monitor and participate in these debates if you're against the proposal. Comically enough, through all the discussion on the wording of this remedy, it's still not clear to me if the sanctioned party is allowed to state their preference each time someone re-opens the discussion or if they're supposed to state it once and force everyone to presume that's their position on it for eternity. --Laser brain (talk) 17:25, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Remedy 1.1 of the Civility in infobox discussions case is amended to replace dot point 3: *making more than one comment in discussing the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article.
with the following: * making more than one comment in a discussion, where that discussion is
substantially primarily about the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article.
You appear to be claiming I'm somehow biased, but my voting record on the case doesn't back that up. I was the first to oppose sanctions for yourself. I was one of only a few arbitrators who opposed suggesting a project-wide RfC on infoboxes, one that would be far more likely to enshrine infoboxes in policy than favor the removal of infoboxes. I proposed the admonishment of the case filer for canvassing. I opposed all of the more draconian sanctions proposed against Cassianto (1RR in the proposed decision, a civility restriction in the workshop). My voting record is more "anti-infobox" than average on the Committee, if anything, which contradicts a claimed "pro-infobox" bias.
If you believed me to be biased, the time to ask for my recusal would have been months ago, when the case was getting started. You were silent. Requests for recusals usually aren't considered after a case enters the voting stage, and we're well past that, given the case is closed entirely. ~ Rob13Talk 20:13, 7 May 2018 (UTC)