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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by T. Canens (talk) at 16:38, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Renewal of remedy 3, either for another year or indefinitely.
Expansion of topic ban in motion 6 to include, at a minimum, mathematics.
In this AE report, concerns were raised that Brews ohare has now engaged in the same disruptive activity for which he was originally sanctioned, only in the fields of mathematics instead of physics, as explained in this comment by JohnBlackburne (talk · contribs). Multiple admins were of the view that sanctions in the form of a 1RR/week restriction or a topic ban was appropriate. However, as remedy 3 has expired, administrators were no longer authorized to impose such sanctions, and the report was closed with Brews accepting a binding voluntary restriction of one revert per week, per article, on any article in the natural sciences - which EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), the closing admin, construed to include mathematics; naturally so, since the proximate cause was disruption on Pythagorean theorem.
Brews now claims that his 1RR restriction does not include mathematics articles, something that is supported by our article on natural science but also means that the restriction failed to cover conduct for which it was intended. As it is now apparent that the restriction did not actually address the problem for which it was proposed, it appears that either a broadened topic ban or renewal of the probation provision is necessary to prevent further disruption. T. Canens (talk) 16:38, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
If it was not apparent by now that Brews endeavors to suck out time by wikilawyering every remedy, and debating everyone who wastes their time gives him pieces of advice, this amendment request should make it patently clear. On November 12, I told Ed Johnston he made a mistake by defining the scope of the restriction to be "natural sciences" since natural sciences don't include math, and that we'll be up at AE debating whether natural sciences include math or not within a month. And here we are three days later at AE doing exactly that. Let's stop beating around the bush, Brews had plenty of chances, plenty of explanations, plenty of time to improve. WP:AGF is not a suicide pact, Brews ran out of AGF juice a long time ago, and there's no way Brews' contributions is worth keeping him around; for every hour he spends on Wikipedia, we sink a hundred hours of other editors' time in debating him, or being at some noticeboard.
Indef block him. Or failing that, block him for the rest of his ban (which will just have the effect of giving people a one year break before this crap resumes). Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:07, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Let's be clear about this: Brews only made a statement, he hasn't edited any articles since the last AE procedure, let alone violated the intended interpretation of the 1RR per week.
I recommend that Brews stick to 0RR on any edits relating to his own edits. If he writes something in an article and he is reverted on that, he can't undo that revert. He can then start a discussion on the talk page about the revert. Then, if he starts a discussion on a talk page and this is archived, he can't undo that archiving, nor can he start a meta discussion about this. On issues not related to his own edits, he can revert, but if his revert is undone, he can't revert again as that would fall under the 0RR restriction regarding his own edits. So, this amounts to 1RR on anything unrelated to his own edits.
My opinion is that this sort of restriction is what is called for, instead of topic bans. The problem with Brews was never caused by the nature of the topics (physics or math), rather with problems in editing together with people who don't like his proposed edits. On Wikipedia, you always have to take serious the opinion of other editors, however you disagree with them. Count Iblis (talk) 18:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Restriction to his own userspace. Brews is then allowed to work on any topic when invited to do so by other editors. He can produce content on his userpage and the other editors can then copy this into article space. I note that some weeks ago Brews was asked to contribute to a math article, but because that was too much physics related, Brews had to refuse because of the topic ban. So, such topics where Brews would be asked to contribute do exist. Count Iblis (talk) 03:06, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
What you mention points to the remedies being ineffective. My thinking has always been that, on the long term, we are better off figuring out how editors like Brews can be used on Wikipedia. In 20 years from now, there may be many retired professors editing Wikipedia, some of whom may show the same kind of problem as Brews now. Count Iblis (talk) 04:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I made some comments there and I think I should declare here that I've done so. Count Iblis (talk) 16:47, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
As I noted here I was skeptical that the sanction would have much effect for the reasons given. I was not expecting it to have none, or at least for Brews ohare to claim that it does not apply to him (he does not edit biology and chemistry, and is already banned from physics), an interpretation at odds with every other participant in that discussion. But I should not be surprised, as this is yet another example of his wikilawyering, followed with his usual blaming everyone but himself for his repeated sanctioning.
On the wider point this is not about physics, or natural sciences, or mathematics. It's about every other page Brews ohare takes an interest in becoming a battle ground, of edit warring if its an article, of tendentious editing on a talk or project page – dominating the discussion so other editors are swamped, ignoring consensus and process, repeatedly refusing to AGF, ignoring requests to stop and warnings – before trying to lawyer himself out of the inevitable visit to arbitration. The current sanctions (including the latest one which it now seems does nothing) have had little effect, except to stoke his persecution complex and add yet more names to the supposed cabal against him.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 00:12, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
As I've stated repeatedly, the problem with Brews is not topic related, so a topic ban is a lame remedy. He needs a good vacation from Wikipedia. Dicklyon (talk) 06:41, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
In his statement below, Brews pretends that the problem started at speed of light; but in fact, as I had pointed out in that arb case, the problem was by then old and very tedious, just not always in physics. He had already been at the focus of numerous AN/I and other actions, and protracted edit wars in which he never found a way to contribute other than increase his rate of article bloat and talk page argument to swamp the other side in each dispute and support his idiosyncratic interpretations of things. His comments re "tacit" below are an example of how he completely misunderstands or misrepresents the pushback and the support that he claims is found in sources for his pov. His holding up D Tombe as an example of someone willing to listen and discuss is comical in the extreme; Tombe has been characterized as a "physics crank" and for some reason he has unlimited juice for engaging Brews, even though the result is not productive in terms of better WP articles. Dicklyon (talk) 16:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to digress a bit on a few highlights of my education at WP.
I came to WP in the area of circuits, and contributed what now appear to be very much too technical articles on devices and design, such as Widlar current source and Step response. They passed muster with little discussion because only other experts read them. Then I went to centrifugal force (I've forgotten how that happened) and discovered this rather technical topic was an interest of many with no concept of physics, and of others with very determined opinions on the subject. One of these was D Tombe, who was again unusual in that he was someone with opposed views who could accept arguments and respond to them. These discussions led to my addition of many examples to Centrifugal force (rotating reference frame), some of which have survived DickLyon's campaign to delete "bloat". It also led to significant additions to several other articles on planar motion, inertial frames of reference, fictitious forces, and to historical articles on Newton's famous examples of rotating spheres and spinning buckets. These contributions were accompanied as always by numerous figures, some of which are found here.
Unfortunately those long analytical discussions (which I found engaging because D Tombe was very resourceful and responsive) were totally outside the norm of WP, leading me to false expectations of the community as a whole. Similarly misleading were the very useful and prolonged interactions with Sbyrnes321 in articles like Faraday's law of induction. It was a huge contrast when I proceeded to Speed of light where I ran instead into a combination of religious fervor and viciousness that brooked no argument and soon landed me in court as disruptive. From that time forth I have been harassed by a few from those days who want more to bother me than to make use of my talents. I acquired a symbolical persona as a mad scientist that is still with me, and has nothing to do with me. See my resume here.
While under my physics topic ban I contributed substantially in the area of geology to articles like Low-velocity zone, P-wave, Lehmann discontinuity, Orogeny, Fold (geology) and so forth, again contributing many images. This uneventful epoch indicates that where Headbomb and Blackburne are not involved, things go just fine.
At the moment, a band of administrators, those like Sandstein and now Timotheus Canens, are happy to support ill-conceived actions by Blackburne and Headbomb with knee-jerk sanctions. I attribute Blackburne's and Headbomb's animosity to a few arguments that stuck in their craws and offended their personal images as savants. I have made overtures to Blackburne, who steadfastly ignores them. The actions of these two editors, combined with administrator incapacity for assessment, have made my days here difficult, regardless of my actions or interests in contributing. A listing of recent WP:AN/I and WP:AE actions against me shows that Headbomb and Blackburne instigated all of them, possibly except the present action undertaken by Timotheus Canens, although this too is a follow-up of an action by Headbomb.
The most recent events, which ostensibly led to the present action, can be summarized as follows.
Timotheus Canens has based this request upon the statement by JohnBlackburne, which is concerned with some edits on the page Pythagorean theorem. I will summarize that activity shortly. Headbomb has asserted a different basis, that I inserted physics edits on the math page Euclidean geometry, a claim disputed by most (including EdJohnston) in his failed action to produce a judgment supporting a topic ban violation.
Below is a summary of the activity on Pythagorean theorem:
Blackburne's comments used as the basis for Timotheus Canens' case provide no basis for extending my probation, now expired, over a concern that I might "repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum". A single main page revert was made by myself. Talk page discussion was used properly and civilly and ended in acquiescence to majority rule.
Likewise, Headbomb's abortive attempt to transform this math insertion into a physics argument when I placed it in Euclidean geometry provides no cause to expand my topic ban to include mathematics, as there is nothing controversial or "idiosyncratic" about my suggestion that Euclidean motions are an underlying feature of Euclid's geometry, as was supported by impeccable sources in my inserted text. (Also added were this and this). I made no attempt to intrude physics into a math article, despite Headbomb's insistence, and Blackburne, EdJohnston and others have agreed with me on that point.
I do believe the proposed actions presented below are overkill if based upon what actually occurred recently. The more serious question of whether there is a more extensive history that requires consideration is worth exploring, but that has not been attempted so far in this hearing. Such a question requires an inquiry into the history of my pursuit by Blackburne and by Headbomb. Should that be undertaken with proper discovery of evidence and presentation of diffs, rather than using he-said she-said and vaguely acquired perceptions based upon gossip, I believe I will be found to be a useful member of the WP society who unfortunately has run afoul of some very determined editors.
Blackburne's comment: As Blackburne has noted, I've raised other issues with his behavior, like his nominating for deletion virtually any article I initiate, like Idée fixe, Vector algebra relations, Quadruple product; his ultimately denied but continuous invoking of WP:OR and WP:SYN on numerous edits, and so forth. The list of arbitration actions brought by himself and Headbomb is only the tip of an iceberg.
The way to get to the bottom of these matters is, as Blackburne suggests, to open a Case and request diffs and evidence. In any event, something as serious as a site ban for both myself and for WP itself requires due diligence, if only to demonstrate to all watching the willingness of administrators to faithfully accept their serious roles. Such a careful undertaking appears to exceed the appetite of this hearing. Brews ohare (talk) 16:40, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
DickLyon's comment: Like everyone, Dick has his opinion. The way to sort out the facts is to actually do due diligence, and not rely upon golden-tongued oratory, not accept pronouncements by self-appointed oracles, and not to decide matters by counting how many say this and how many say that, or rely upon history reconstructed from foggy memories. Get down to an organized assessment of diffs and documented facts.
If this hearing is not up to that degree of scrutiny, it should adopt a less draconian choice of actions. For example, if the problem here is all about what "natural sciences" mean, then propose that I adopt a voluntary sanction worded differently instead of reinventing the definition of natural science.. Brews ohare (talk) 18:08, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Collect's comment: Indeed, you are correct about the thirst for further draconian actions. Already Roger has second thoughts that this "vacation" for me is insufficient, and he is looking forward to further action after the year is up, when Blackburne and Headbomb return to assert renewed "conduct issues". Brews ohare (talk) 00:05, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Carcharoth's oppose: Thanks for the willingness to discuss alternatives. Brews ohare (talk) 01:42, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Carcharoth's go-between: I heartily support Carcharoth's suggestion of a go-between, particularly if it is an administrator. I'd suggest an immediate trial period with this suggestion in place. My prediction is that Dick Lyon and Blackburne will immediately back off their nit-picking WP:OR, WP:V, "bloat" onslaughts and automatic RfD's for articles when they are faced with an automatic conflict with an administrator, and Headbomb will stop his wiki-hounding persecutions over nothing for the same reason. Harmony will reign, and these three trivia mongers will be forced into retreat and will vanish from the scene. I will be able to proceed like any other editor without their nonsense at every turn. There is no need to wait to implement this idea. It can be done immediately. I will draft any contribution on my User pages and if an admin agrees they will be implemented. There will be no restrictions on content or subject area. The administrator will have full authority in the matter. Brews ohare (talk) 04:47, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Administrators: I have read your observations and statements of support and find nothing substantive. Remarks like "this needs to end", "not everyone is meant to edit Wikipedia" and other vague generalities typical of political squawk ads are beneath the dignity of this hearing and simply add to the already general dissatisfaction with proceedings like this one. Can't this matter actually be examined? Can't alternatives be discussed? Is this proceedings a hearing or an excuse, mere window dressing for a decision reached in the shadows off-line? Brews ohare (talk) 00:11, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Disregard for WP process: Picking a group of jurors at random, it seems that a variety of opinion and a variety of suggested solutions would pop up. Instead, the action here sparked by a question about a voluntary restriction, and nonetheless proposing a very serious sanction, is actually diverted to propose a more serious sanction, and that proposal is agreed to instantly by administrators with only one dissent, without discussion, without regard for various recommendations for moderation, and without consideration of a variety of proposed alternatives.
My plea for looking at the facts, and not taking accusations at face value, is not only not acted upon, it is not even dismissed upon some pretext. Not only is due diligence declined, but the incontrovertible facts already established are not considered.
A solid unquestioning escalation of sanctions and deliberate disregard for process is odd, I think. What is going on? To parallel remarks by Coren in a different matter: this action that has been taken far beyond an amendment to the old Case: Speed of light needs to be filed as a full case request. Brews ohare (talk) 18:49, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Again we see that draconian solutions only evoke more desire for further draconian solutions from those who felt they did not go far enough. In the case at hand, the Arbcom limitation was clearly thought out and discussed - extending this to "permanent vacation" or the like is simply a matter of seeking what was not done in the first place. And mathematics is not sufficiently related to the Physics issues educed before as to fall under the initial motions. Time to tell folks that asking for more bites at the apple is "not done." All the other argumentation above is really of tangential relevance to this sort of spandex motions. Collect (talk) 23:12, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
I personally think this is a overreaction. I would note the irony of the same people being here asking for the same things. Recently a sanctions was not carried out due to a restriction voluntarily accepted. This wasn't far enough and so we get the request to indef ban brews? Maybe the committee would like to consider the cool calmness that was observed during the advocation motion and extend that to those who constantly howl for Brews head. Again I'd be willing ot completely butt out if there is a level playing field. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 02:49, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Like this whole saga, this set of incidents seems to be a string of little things blown way out of proportion and wasting everyone's time. Let's put Brews on 0RR and let him know that while his early contributions (diagrams, etc.) were fantastic, engaging in arguments over trivialities and definitions is counterproductive and cannot continue. 'Course, this case seems fairly settled already, so I'm really just making a note of where I stand. Awickert (talk) 06:32, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
[Add]: Since geology is mentioned: there was some debate over Brews' understanding of the terminology there, as in other areas, and some mistakes were made, but I will vouch that once Brews got what was going on, the volume and quality of his contributions more than made up for the time lost in discussion. Awickert (talk) 06:38, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I realize that it may be somewhat late for me to comment, but I'd like to make a few remarks.
I do accept that, from time to time, some editors simply don't mesh well with the Wikipedia system. But I'm not convinced yet that a year-long ban is warranted here, since the edits to math articles would not be particularly bad if viewed with no eye on Brews' editing history. I think that a combination of broader topic and 1RR restrictions might be able to resolve the issue. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:53, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
1) Brews ohare (talk · contribs) is banned from Wikipedia for a period of one year.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Kkmurray (talk) at 23:12, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
There is a dispute regarding WP:OR and WP:NPOV at Kendrick mass and Kendrick (unit) that is a continuation of the dispute previously discussed in the resolved arbitration case Kehrli that involved the mass and unit articles Mass-to-charge ratio, Thomson (unit) and Mass spectrum. User:Kehrli has resumed aggressive POV editing related to mass and unit articles. The locus of discussion for this dispute is Talk:Kendrick_mass.
As in the resolved arbitration case, User:Kehrli has over several months pushed original research and POV in mass and unit articles. He has used the general guidelines documents such as ISO 31, the IUPAC green book and a minority view from a single primary source document [1] to justify POV pushing and original research in mass units. He rejects [2] multiple secondary sources [3] and is not abiding by WP:NPOV, WP:SOURCE and WP:OR in article editing.
As in the past dispute leading to the resolved arbitration case, User:Kehrli has engaged in disruptive activity such as deleting talk page comments [4], inappropriately flagging other users talk page comments.[5][6], merging without consensus.[7], removing page flags during discussion, [8][9][10], WP:PERSONAL [11] and lack of WP:AGF [12][13][14].
This dispute has been discussed extensively for several months (primarily at Talk:Kendrick mass) and has gone through a proposed merge, request for comment, and informal discussions with prior case administrators. The discussion has been useful in establishing the views of the editors and several new scientific references have been found that provide additional facts that shed light on the dispute. Informal discussions with administrators from the prior dispute process have led to further clarification of the situation, [15] It appears that further discussion will not likely be useful as User:Kehrli does not seem willing to compromise. [16]
Specific dispute resolution steps:
Kendrick unit article created December 18, 2009 by User:Kehrli [17]
PROD January 17, 2010 by User:Glenfarclas [18]
dePROD January 17, 2010 by User:Glenfarclas [19]
Move Kendrick unit to Kendrick mass January 25, 2010 by User:Kkmurray [20]
Reverse move and redirect Kendrick mass to Kendrick unit August 17, 2010 by User:Kehrli [21] [22]
Restore Kendrick mass and propose merge from Kendrick unit to Kendrick mass August 17, 2010 by User:Kkmurray [23] [24]
Request for comments from WikiProject Chemistry, WikiProject Mass spectrometry, September 24-27, 2010 by User:Kkmurray [25] [26] [27]
Open RfC October 17, 2010 by User:Kkmurray [28]
Informal request for assistance from prior case administrators November 1, 2010 User:Nick Y. [29] [30] [31] [32]
In both the 2006 and 2010 disputes, Kehrli has applied the broad principles of metrology to what he considers to be poor chemistry nomenclature.
In the 2006 case, he objected to mass-to-charge ratio being defined as dimensionless. Secondary sources defining it as dimensionless (e.g. IUPAC Gold Book [41]) were “minority opinion of a small group of scientists” [42] A single source that is consistent with his argument (Cooks and Rockwood 1991) was given undue balance and used to justify POV editing.
In the 2010 dispute, he objects to Kendrick mass being defined with units of Da. Multiple secondary sources defining Kendrick mass with units of Da (e.g. [43] ) are “outdated jargon of a part of a fringe group”. A single source (Junnien 2010 [44]) is given undue balance and used to justify POV editing.
The issue is sources and balance.
Whether this is dealt with as an amendment to the prior case or as a new case, this is the same behavior as before. --Kkmurray (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I am very busy right now and won't be able to spend much time explaining this situation. However, I will state here that the examples given by Kkmurray are original research. The OR is logical and helps to resolve some outstanding issues in the scientific literature. In other words it might make a good, as in thoughtful and compelling, opinion article in a scientific journal. There are multiple sources that conflict with one another. Rather than stating such Kehrli has chosen to resolve the issues here at wikipedia with his thoughtful suggestions as to how things should be done. His suggestions make sense and are logical and consistent with how units of measure should be defined by the strictest of rules. It simply isn't his role as an editor at wikipedia to define new units of measure, or even clarify the definitions of things that look like units of measure and are present in the scientific literature in some form. We are here to summarize and report accurately, even when what we are reporting on is a mess or conflicting with conventions. The new behavior is essentially the same as what happened last time. I wholeheartedly endorse Kkmurray's course of action here as it is clear that Kehrli is unwilling to understand or accept any feedback on the scope of his responsibilities as an editor. I also find no faults in Kkmurray's position on the substance of this issue. --Nick Y. (talk) 16:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
In the previous case I wrote an article explaining why the m/z notation is wrong. I thereby referred to the general principles of metrology according to which the m/z notation is indeed wrong. However, I could not produce a source that specifically said that m/z is wrong. This lead the arbitrators, which were all not experts in the field of metrology, believe that my article was OR.
In this case here, which is about a mass scale and not a physical quantity of mass per charge, I was much more careful. I learned from the past experience. I only wrote things that had literal sources. This time I did not rely solely on sources that showed that I used the correct methods. Everything I wrote is sourced. There is absolutely no OR, as I will show later.
In addition I wrote a much more balanced article. It was not an article that showed that some terminology is wrong. It is an article that discusses a method in physical chemistry in the correct terminology as well as in the incorrect terminologies. I then listed passages from the VIM (vocabulary of international metrology) that will indicate to the expert that the terminology is not compliant to the VIM. I did not write down this conclusion because it could have been seen as OR.
Note that even my adversary Nick says that I have the facts right.
I am not very familiar with Wikipedia policies, but since this is an amendment of an old case which has nothing to do with the new Kendrick case, I should now probably continue defending the old case.
This previous case was about the question whether mass spectrometers measure the physical quantity mass-to-charge ratio m/Q (with dimension mass/charge) or a ill defined, nameless and dimensionless quantity m/z which is often used by the analytical chemistry branch of the mass spec community. My arguments based mainly on a paper written by two outstanding scientists (Cooks and Rockwood) that tried to introduce a new terminology in mass spectrometry by replacing the dimensionless quantity m/z by a well defined quantity with dimension mass/charge and using the Thomson (unit) for this quantity. Unfortunately, in this paper they themselves used terminology that was not 100% decisive. They continued to use the symbols m/z for their quantity. My argument was that they considered m/z as a quantity of dimension mass/charge which correctly should have the symbols m/Q according to the international conventions. This mistake is made by many mass spectrometrists. Of all those that use m/z symbols, about 1/3 thinks of it as a mass-to-charge ratio (my guess how the authors meant it), 1/3 thinks it is a mass (and use Da as units), and 1/3 think it is dimensionless. Kkmurray then argued that it was not certain what the authors meant with their symbol m/z and that my "assumption" (which was based on the actual text in the paper) was not solid and therefore my article is OR.
In the mean time, one of the authors has visited Wikipedia. He has corrected the article Thomson (unit) in my sense and has stated that the the authors thought of m/z as a quantity of mass/charge and the unit Th as a unit Th = Da/e. He added this section in the article: [45]
He labeled this correction: Removed gratuitous comment and opinion refering to those who use the thomson as the "fringe" of the mass spec community. Which shows that Kkmurray edits were indeed non-neutral.
The author even engaged in a discussion with Kkmurray where he slapped his wrist for being non-neutral in the Thomson (unit) article: [46]
In other words: the author not only stated that my interpretation of the paper was correct, he also was angry about the non-neutral wording of Kkmurray.
In hindsight the appearance of one of the authors shows that my ban was incorrect. Since we are already engaged in an amendment, I therefore ask the arbitrators to reverse the ban that was given to me in 2006 so I get back a blank jacket. This would help me to better withstand the troll-like behavior of Kkmurray who engages in disruptive behavior in almost each of my edits, as I will show later.
I also ask the new arbitrators to spell a ban on Kkmurray for his disruptive behavior.
Here is a list of alleged OR of mine. I will show for each one of them why it is not OR. This may get very technical. Please ask a specialist in metrology for an opinion,
It is not quite clear what exactly should be OR, the claim is not very specific. I assume the following citation needed lables are the problem:
Here is the explanation of the citation needed tags, in order of their appearance:
I added a unit infobox for the Kendrick unit. What should be wrong with this?
Again, I added a standard unit infobox for the Dalton unit. What should be wrong with this?
I supplemented the charge state of the ions with their actual charge. This is completely appropriate since, as we now have learned from its inventor, the Thomson unit is a unit of mass/charge, not mass/(charge state). In the context of this article it would even be appropriate to eliminate any reference to charge state completely.
I added a physical unit infobox, which is 100% appropriate since m/z is a physical quantity in the eyes of any metrologist.
The Kehrli plot is not even in the article. It is on the talk page where I try to explain a broader view of the Kendrick analysis. The Kehrli Plot would be OR if it were in an article, but on a talk page it is perfectly ok to explain things. This is a typical example of the disruptive behavior of Kkmurray.
This again is not in an article. It is on a talk page where I try to explain the concepts of modern metrology to Kkmurray.
This again is not in an article. It is on a talk page where I try again to explain the concepts of modern metrology to Kkmurray. These are all concepts that implement the consensus terminology of the IUPAP red book, AND the IUPAC green book, AND the ISO 31, AND the International vocabulary of metrology.
That's all. Both views can produce sources. That is why it comes down to a really simple question:
PS: I am currently very short on time and may not answer immediately. Kehrli (talk) 15:30, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
The use of units of measurement is guided by the following principles:
The facts are:
Hence I conclude that wikkipedia policy strongly favors my approach.
ZOMG! The finer points of metrological opinion as the basis for an ArbCom case! Where should I start? Well, firstly, both “sides” have tried to seek mediation from relevant WikiProjects without success. I’ve seen their requests on both WP:CHM and WP:MEASURE, but didn’t get involved because the dispute seemed to be about such small points of interpretation. I neither agree nor disagree with either “side” completely. To atone for my sins of Wikilaziness, I offer the parties the analysis below as a basis for moving forward: if there is agreement to look for mediation, we can always squat a page at WP:MEDCAB to sort out the details.
Extended content
|
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To avoid any arguments over terminology, I shall call ℚ the physical quantity that mass spectrometrists pretend to measure. This quantity is related to m/Q by the laws of electromagnetism and (more precisely) to m/z because of the quantization of electric charge at the molecular scale. Note that Q and z are not the same kind of physical quantity: Q is continuous and has the dimension IT, while z is discontinuous and has the dimension 1. I say “pretend to measure”, because ℚ (whatever name you give it) cannot be measured directly without a knowledge of the magnetic field, a recurring problem in metrology. The only way to measure the magnetic field along the path of interest is to calibrate the output of the mass spectrometer for an ion whose mr/z is accurately known: let’s call this calibration output ℚ°. So the measurement result of a mass spectrometric measurement is actually ℚ/ℚ°, a quantity that is obviously of dimension one. The spectrometrist (or, more usually, the spectrometer) then multiplies by the known value of mr/z for the standard to give ℚ. Yet both mr and z are also quantities of dimension one, so ℚ itself must also be of dimension one. Or, to be more precise, it is a quantity of dimension one related to the physical response of the mass spectrometer by a calibration constant. So where do the thomson and the kendrick unit fit into all this? Well, they are units that are not coherent with the SI. Nothing wrong with that, the dalton isn’t coherent with the SI either! But the current definition of the thomson on Wikipedia is a classic example of harmlessly sloppy metrology by chemists: it has units on both sides of the equation, yet units from different, incoherent systems! The formal way to deal with this problem is to define a physical constant, which will have different values (and maybe even different dimensions) in the different systems. So we define the “Thomson constant” mTh such that mTh = mu/e = 1 Th. It is obvious that we can also define a “Kendrick constant” mKe = mu/(Ar(12C)+2Ar(1H))e = 1 Ke. The two units are of the same type, non-coherent with one another but both traceable to the SI through experimentally determined constants. |
Secondly, this doesn’t seem to be a simple case of WP:OR on either side, although much of what has been argued over would have been better in a peer-reviewed article than on Wikipedia. Nevertheless, the dispute is disruptive and appears to be spreading to more articles.
Finally, I’m sure I’m not the only one to question whether the reopening of a case from 2006 is really the best procedural way forward. If this case has to come before ArbCom, it should be as a new case: I would suggest that such a new case could probably be resolved by motion, given the limited scope of the dispute. Physchim62 (talk) 18:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
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Initiated by JohnWBarber (talk) at 04:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
All notified (except for ChrisO).
In the discussion of the previous clarification, I made this point: [55]
No ArbCom member directly addressed my concern. Please address it now. I think it's absurd to have to bring this up, but a lot of things I think are absurd become reasons admins use to issue blocks, and Jehochman just announced on Newyorkbrad's talk page that he'd block editors sanctioned in this case from bringing up the actions of ArbCom members as they relate to this case in discussions about Arb elections. [56] [57] Please confirm that you haven't taken away our right to criticize you. I think we should be able to do so on your talk pages (to the extent that individual arbs agree to that discussion) or on pages reserved for discussions about the elections.
I realize this is not a government and that no one has actual "rights" here on Wikipedia, but gagging editors when what they really want to do is discuss ArbCom actions in an ArbCom election, even if the ArbCom actions under discussion are about how ArbCom members acted in the CC case, seems to take a desire for order in the CC topic area to a ridiculous extreme. We're not editing the articles. We're not discussing CC topics. There is a desire to discuss how ArbCom members judged editors who edited CC-topic articles. By necessity in such a discussion, some CC-topic edits, or at least edits to ArbCom pages that link to CC-topic edits, will come up. There's a point at which a ban on discussing a topic becomes absurd. This is that point. We're not a government, but we're not East Germany either. Or am I going to be blocked for posting this?
Wait a minute, does every arbitrator involved in a case who is standing for re-election have to recuse from ruling on whether a gag order issued in the case bars editors from commenting on the case in the upcoming election? That would be interesting. Who is left to decide the motion? Maybe we should form a committee of uninvolved nonadmins to rule on this.
Basic principles of governance -- of any organization, not just political bodies -- dictate that an order issued by an elected / appointed body restricting a person's actions cannot bar the person from appealing the order or from discussing the wisdom of those issuing it, each in the appropriate forum. The only thing that would justify closing the doors of appeal to someone (other than sundry matters like secrecy, libel, or court orders) is that they have exhausted all appeals and/or are abusing the forum. ArbCom members and administrators involved in ArbCom matters sometimes forget this, or perhaps they never learned it. A party to a case cannot reasonably be banned from criticizing or advocating in good faith against administrators who ruled against them in the case. We have to allow that discussion. If it becomes a proxy for re-arguing the merits of climate change science and the behavior of the parties to the case, that goes too far and somebody could declare some limits. Short of that, ArbCom is criticized enough as it is for being out of touch with the process of editing the encyclopedia and the volunteers who do so. Closing the door to those editors would only worsen that perception.
Those who got themselves topic banned from Climate Change did not demonstrate a good-sized dollop of common sense. Usually editors are topic banned for lack of common sense or lack of self control. If the "usual suspects" decide to get into a battle on the election pages, I will block them if I see it. If you want to comment on the arbitrator only, that's fine, but I don't think your words will carry that much weight. No doubt there will be a chorus singing "sour grapes" if you decide to attack an arbitrator for having dared to sanction you. For your own good, just drop the subject completely, in all venues, at all times, and do not look for exceptions, exemptions or ways to get in your last licks. Go edit productively, and soon enough this sorry incident will be a fading memory. Jehochman Talk 21:45, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Jehochman. While it may be theoretically possible for involved editors - both those sanctioned and named in the decision - to comment on the Arbcom elections, it runs the risk of reeking of sour grapes. I think that such editors has better stay away, and the same goes for editors in other cases who have been spanked by Arbcom. ScottyBerg (talk) 22:16, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm so teed off by the recent, unjustified blocks of Hipocrite and Connelley for voting in an RfA that I'm withdrawing my statement and now arguing in favor of allowing topic banned editors to make whatever statements they want int he Arbcom elections. I'm disturbed by the trigger-happy blocking that I'm seeing, and I believe that it must stop. The pendulum has officially swung too far in the opposite direction. Let's take the gags from the mouths of topic banned editors. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:49, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Kirill, and reject the comments by JEH and SB who should (IMHO) realise that their comments here really are neither necessary nor useful; JEH, in particular, whilst basically a good guy, needs to stop acting as though someone appointed him sheriff of this case William M. Connolley (talk) 22:34, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Topic bans are for topics, election bans are for elections. Impacted editors must be able to express their opinions in elections, without disruptions. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 22:39, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous. JEH is handing out block threats like candy on Halloween. The elections have nothing to do with the climate change topic area, but the events surrounding this case are entirely relevant to the elections. I have serious issues with the way 3 specific arbitrators handled this case (I think they know who they are) and I fully intend to ask very hard questions of those arbs if they are running. There is nothing in the letter or spirit of the topic ban that prevents me from doing so. JEH is out of line here.
And frankly, I am getting tired of people like JEH, SA, and TS (note: TS has indicated he has stepped back from CC, so this only refers to prior actions ATren (talk) 01:23, 15 November 2010 (UTC)) acting in enforcement roles in all this. All three of these editors were significantly involved in this topic area, to the point where there was significant discussion of their behavior on the PD talk page. And it's these three who have, since the case closed, repeatedly overreacted with spurious enforcement requests, warnings and/or threats. Their responses, in most cases, have escalated minor issues into major blowups. In this example, it was a discussion about the particulars of a case finding on an arbitrator's talk page. The arb himself responded and there was civil disagreement, but no major issue. Then JEH showed up and started threatening blocks for merely participating in the election process, and here we are again with another clarification. More needless drama, caused not by one of the banned editors (WMC in this case, whom I almost NEVER defend), but by the overreaction of JEH. ATren (talk) 13:28, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
What ATren said. Take heed, this is something that has been extremely rare. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC) Clarification: I agree with the general gist of ATren's comment, i.e. that enforcement actions are used to stifle legitimate debate, and that some editors and admins are overly aggressive in acting against trivial and perceived deviations from what they perceive as the officially blessed behavior, creating unnecessary drama and an unproductive editing environment. I have not followed the actions of all individual editors named by him to have a settled opinion on each. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:19, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree with ATren. Polargeo (talk) 13:50, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't happen often that Stephan Schulz, Polargeo, and SBHB agree with ATren. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
What ATren, Kirill, and Coren said. Hurrah for rapidly-evolving consensus to be reasonable! Awickert (talk) 09:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
As far as elections are concerned, if you wish to comment on the Committee's ruling, or on individual arbitrator's statements as they relate to the case, you're quite free to do so. You may not, however, use the election as a pretext to engage in advocacy regarding content or policy disputes in the climate change area, or to attack other parties to the climate change case. The line between these may be a thin one in certain circumstances, and it will ultimately be up to the administrators enforcing the topic ban to determine whether you're misusing the election pages; but, so long as we remain the only targets of your criticism, I think everyone will be reasonable about it. Kirill [talk] [prof] 06:20, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
And I agree that criticism of arbitrators (or candidates) regarding past record of decisions is exactly what an election discussion is for; and so this is pretty much by definition permissible. But there is a line between legitimate criticism and disruptive advocacy, and a good dollop of common sense suffices to stay well behind that line. — Coren (talk) 16:09, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
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Initiated by Cptnono (talk) at 08:24, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
1/rr was just rolled out across the topic. It has already proven to not mean much but the main reason I am bringing this up here is because editors do not know where to take requests for enforcement. There will be violations even though we all wish they didn't come up. Does it come to AE or the edit warring noticeboard?
I think that edit warring noticeboard is more adept at handling simpler, first-time infractions of the 1RR sanction, while more problematic, long term, serial sanction violators should be referred to AE. Just my two cents. ← George talk 08:34, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Requests to enforce the 1RR itself can be taken to AN3. If you ask for action to be taken under the discretionary sanctions provision (i.e., beyond a simple 1RR block), take it to AE. T. Canens (talk) 08:54, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Some 3RR cases from October 2010 involving Arbcom sanctions
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Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive142#User:Sulmues reported by User:Athenean (Result: 2 weeks/1RR 6 months) 16 October, 2010 User was cited for long-term edit warring on articles subject to WP:ARBMAC2. Blocked two weeks, put under 1RR per the discretionary sanctions. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive142#User:Hammer of Habsburg reported by User:Taivo (Result:48 hours ) User:Hammer of Habsburg reported by User:Taivo (Result:48 hours ) 19 October 2010 Violation of a 1RR restriction imposed under WP:ARBMAC Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive142#User:Prunesqualer reported by User:Jiujitsuguy (Result: No violation) 20 October 2010 Claimed violation of a 1RR restriction imposed under WP:ARBPIA. The admin did not judge that it was a violation of 1RR; closed as No Violation. (Eventuallly he got blocked anyway for 24 hours, not sure where it was discussed). |
-- EdJohnston (talk) 06:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
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Initiated by Hipocrite (talk) at 17:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Sphilbrick has edited
27) Sphilbrick has edited pages related to Climate Change.[58]
Are topic banned users permitted to !vote in RFA's related to people who have once edited climate change articles? If yes, are they permitted, on request, to justify their vote, as long as such justification is not a re-fighting of the same thing?
Sphilbrick is currently in the middle of an RFA. If he were an admin at the time the CC case went through the motions, I would have sought to have him mentioned similarly to StephanS. Since he was not an admin at the time, and was not a major participant in the troubles, he was ignored by most. However, as he is nearly an admin now, I think that it is important and relevant that ArbCom note that he edited Climate Change articles. It should also be noted that making this finding of fact will subject Sphilbrick to the "Involved administrators" standing order that individuals identified by name in the decision are not permitted to impose sanctions. Sphilbrick has already consented to avoid using any hypothetical admin tools to administrate CC articles in [59].
Further, I was recently blocked for a week as I !voted in an RFA, but when asked for a justification was forced to dodge said with the comment that I was topic banned. Was that the appropriate response, or should I have never !voted in any RFA related to any Climate Change related party, or should I have just provided a climate change related justification? (Or should I just have lied about my concerns?)
My goal, as I have stated before, was to leave the topic area behind, and I have done that. I was not involved in any of the flare-ups, but I don't think that I should be forced to have my voice discounted. I can provide other circumstances where I have dodged discussing climate change, if the committee desires. Hipocrite (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
NYB - I was blocked for a week for my comment. I don't think my comment was incorrect. Please confirm if my comments were correct or incorrect. Coren [60] had previously commented that my understanding of my topic ban was overbroad. Hipocrite (talk) 23:53, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Hipocrite. His request was occasioned by an absurd block of him and Connelly for participating in that RfA. I would take his request one step further: topic banned users should receive a safe harbor from blocking, and should be permitted to vote and comment on RfAs, without restriction on their comments concerning CC. This trigger-happy blocking must stop; it is preventing a free exchange of ideas in one of the most crucial parts of Wikipedia. Come to think of it, this experience has made me change the view that I previously expressed on Arbcom voting/discussions as well. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:45, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I just wanted to note (in case anyone reading this wasn't aware) that the RfA part of this request may have somewhat of a time constraint, due to interactions at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Sphilbrick. And this has been discussed in several places, most notably at WP:BN, and User talk:Hipocrite.
Also, I'm wondering if the comments concerning the arb elections at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request_for_clarification:_Climate_Change_case_.283.29, would equally apply here. In particular, what should we consider "common sense", in usage and potential enforcement WP:AE.
While topic bans are not new, this particular case did seem to have some results which were unique to it, or at the very least, making topic bans seem unique when compared to other (typical) types of sanction. So typical generalisations about common sense would seem to be more difficult here. Maybe something general about what is common sense in how one may interact with other editors when under a topic ban. Since: topic bans suggest interaction with content, vs. these questions which involve interactions with other editors.
So clarification on this would be most welcome. - jc37 19:20, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
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Initiated by ellol (talk) at 14:40, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
Hello.
6-7 months ago I participated in a messy case (Russavia-Biophys). I feel sorry about that now. I wish to stay away from controversies.
I have no great plans for Wikipedia. But I think I could make some minor contributions to Wikipedia articles regarding Russia's share of the modern aerospace projects, keeping them up to date in view of recent news. I also would like to upload some of the photos of Russia's buildings, publicly requested by user Russavia User:Russavia/Required_photos. I think it would be very important to allow people in the world to see more of the Moscow sights in Wikipedia.
It would be good if my topic ban is lifted. If it's not feasible, please, tell me if I could make contributions about Russia's space projects or upload photos of Moscow.
Regards, ellol (talk) 14:40, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
As another party of the case I support lifting the ban for Ellol. He must have his second chance, just as everyone else. There is little to comment because he was not especially active during this time. Let's forgive and forget. Let's improve situation in this area. In particular, I would be very much willing to collaborate with Ellol on any subject he wants to collaborate with me. Same should be done by others in this area. Of course I do not insist on any collaboration. Such things must be mutual. I am telling this because Ellol seems to be the only editor who is interested in the same subjects as me, such as human rights in Russia. On the other hand, I never edited favorite subjects of Offliner (Russian military-industrial complex) or Russavia (aviation and foreign relations). So, I have no common interests with them... Biophys (talk) 15:39, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
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Initiated by Biophys (talk) at 15:32, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
I would like to apologize for contributing to disruption and ask for review and direction at this point, almost six months since the beginning of my topic ban. During this time I was active, edited in allowed areas, avoided conflicts, and tried to deal with problems noted in your findings of fact [61].
What was my problem? I edited 4,000 different articles (and a lot of them are related to my Russian cultural background) and created 250 new pages. Few my edits caused anyone's objections, but I always returned back to the articles where someone reverted my edits to be engaged in prolonged disputes, edit warring and complaints. It came at no surprise that the trouble happened in a difficult area that has been already a subject of numerous sanctions.
To avoid this problem in a future I am going to leave any article to others and edit something else if a dispute can not be quickly resolved by talking and compromising. It is enough to remove an article from my watch list. I did just that during my topic ban. This helped me to make exactly zero reverts that could be interpreted as edit warring during all this time (a few “undo” are fixes of obvious vandalism problems). Here are a few examples of someone recently reverting my edits [62] [63][64],[65],[66], and I walked away from these articles. Yes, I fully realize that every editor had his reason for reverting my edits, even though I happened to disagree with them and explained why [67], [68], [69],[70]. There is nothing wrong with returning later to these articles. The entire point is to avoid creating the conflicts.
If there is something else I must do, please tell. I could not care less about ethnic and territorial disputes, but I may have a bias related to human rights issues, no matter if the victims were Russian [71], German [72] or Korean [73], except that I know Soviet subjects much better. But my edits usually describe mainstream majority views and are referenced to books by the best experts, as in the diffs above.
In summary, I only wanted to tell that I am ready to contribute positively in this area. No, I do not feel any rush to return back to difficult subjects, but I am ready to make such decisions for myself. I am asking for an amendment mostly because I feel extremely uncomfortable being a subject of indefinite sanctions [74]. I simply want to be a normal editor again. You issued a good preventative topic ban that helped me to spend my time in the project more productively. But it is no longer needed.
Offliner provides this diff. No, I did not really make such promises since they are not included in the final version of my statement [75]. Still, this is something reasonable and involves three different issues.
(1) Yes, I left EEML mailing list.
(2) With regard to edit warring, I thought it was enough to limit myself mostly to 1RR per article per day. That was a serious error of judgment, and Arbcom made it very clear to me that edit warring is totally unacceptable, no matter how frequently one does it. Hence I changed my behavior and was not involved in a single edit warring incident during last six months. But edit warring is only a symptom. The real root of the problem are serious personal conflicts, which is something very much different from debating content disagreements. The only way to avoid the conflicts in this environment is to leave an article (or a disputed part of the article) to your opponent if you can not come to an agreement. That is something I was doing during these six months and will do in the future. This is a serious commitment.
(3) I tried to help by commenting at administrative noticeboards [76] [77], [78], [79], [80][81][82][83](the most recent diffs in reverse chronological order).
The alleged battleground on my part. Unlike some others, I did not file a single official complaint about others to AE, ANI or other similar places for at least a year. Offliner brings here an episode when Colchicum made an AE request about Russavia still stalking my edits. Yes, I get excited when Jehochman, Petri and Russavia started claiming that it was me who actually violated the ban, despite to clarification by Shell. However, Offliner forget that I striked through my comment as soon as realized that it was indeed inappropriate [84], and I did not object to the non-administrative closure of the AE case by Petri Krohn [85]. I regret about commenting anything at all in this case.
Yes, I left a few comments to Vecrumba, Radek and Martintg [86] and [87] (diffs by Offliner). I reminded to Vecrumba about Russian editor who was indefinitely banned, mostly for contributing in irrelevant discussions. I am telling Radek that "winning" is not the goal, and it might be better for him to loose a dispute or two. Is that an evidence of the "battleground" by me?
Just a few points to clarify the situation.
Petri, I do not have conflicts with anyone, you including. Yes, I had them in the past, but I do not have them now. Did I say that I have conflicts anywhere? Did I blame anyone of my own problems? No, I am very much ready to forgive and forget whatever had happened in the past, and I hope all others can do the same. No, It was exactly my point that the conflicts must be avoided at any cost (please see above). Biophys (talk) 02:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Welcome back! Yes, I have a human rights-related bias. No, I have no intention to waste anyone's time. Please see my statement above. I only want to return to normal editing process, which is impossible with an indefinite topic ban. Hodja Nasreddin (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
First book was written by a group of internationally recognized historians and published by the Harvard University Press. What better comprehensive textbook, specifically on the subject of communist repressions in different countries, could you possibly suggest? This is probably the best. Another book, "KGB in Europe", was prepared by a Chair of the History Faculty at Cambridge University. Did you read this book? This is based on a huge number of published sources rather than Mitrokhin's archive. These books are well above the average level of wikipedia sources. How can you claim that books by the best academic experts are "published outside the academic mainstream"?
@Kirill, I do not understand why I should be held responsible for problematic actions by others. The problems will probably never go away from controversial areas. If I did something wrong during these six months, please tell what it is, and I will try to fix what I can.Biophys (talk) 04:36, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
@Shell. I made exactly zero reverts that can be interpreted as edit warring during this time. This is a dramatic change in my editing habits. I provided five examples when someone reverted my edits during this time, which did not cause any problems 1,2,3,4,5. In example 1, I left the article and its talk page, because it became a subject of edit warring between multiple parties. In case 2, a discussion was heated, but an editor finally agreed with my argument and himself made changes suggested by me [100]. In cases 3 and 4, we came to an agreement after a brief discussion (3 - another editor suggested that I go ahead and make the changes [101]; 4 - I agreed that another editor is right after looking at the complicated system of relationships between different pages [102]). In case 5 I decided not to make any changes and stop discussion because it fueled an unnecessary conflict and became a subject of AE inquiry filed by Colchicum. What else I suppose to demonstrate?
@SirFozzie. Yes, I understand and share your sentiment. Please tell what should I do to fix the problems, whatever they are. Should I remain in protective custody forever, or it is me who creates danger for others? I can promise not to talk with anyone who edits in this area about anything except improving the content and purely technical questions/requests. Would that resolve the problems? Then fine, I will do just that. In particular, I am going to leave without answer and remove from my talk page comments like this [103]. The only thing I ever wanted was creation of new content. The conflicts may continue to escalate, but I am not going to be involved. I hope you do not mean that I contribute to conflicts by creating new encyclopedic content? Just to clarify, I would be involved in "robust debates" as Ed Johnson said [104] only about improvement of content and only at talk pages of the corresponding articles. Would that be a possible solution of the problem? What else I must do in addition to conflict-free editing?
@Newyorkbrad and Risker. Thank you very much. I have no problem waiting another three months to resubmit this request. Once again, my primary motivation for filing this request was returning to normal editing rather than coming back with vengeance to the conflict area. Biophys (talk) 16:40, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
You do not want to see me again, as Kirill said. Yes, I do not want this too. Then the simplest and fastest solution would be the following. You remove all editing restrictions, but with the following clause: if I am found guilty by AE administrators of any violation in this area, the indefinite ban is automatically reinstated, without any your involvement. Then, I do not need to make any promises, and you do not need to trust me. If there are any additional recommendations, please tell, and I would be happy to follow. Biophys (talk) 15:57, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't think there is sufficient reason to believe Biophys would not return to his old disruptive ways if the sanction is lifted. He has made several promises before (e.g.[105],[106]), but these never caused him to alter his behaviour (see here). Biophys also continued to participate in battleground discussions during his topic ban, defending certain editors [107][108], while attacking others [109][110][111][112][113]. Biophys' battleground mentality is still here, as clearly evidenced by diffs like this and this. Anyway, the sanction says that the topic ban is to be reviewed no sooner than after one year, not now. The ruling was pretty clear here, and modifying it now would make the original sanction look strange, even misleading. Offliner (talk) 16:21, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Re: Offliner's reference of an exchange on my talk page here, Offliner's characterization is a complete misrepresentation as I was attempting to work through some conflicts in the topic area in question (and have received positive responses regarding my participation); Biophys' statement was one that I took as asking why I would seek out some area of controversy that is a known battleground (there was a raging Arbcom going on at the time I took interest to the articles in the area of dispute). Observing that there are battlegrounds and offering the observation that an editor might have better places to spend one's time is hardly exhibiting a "battleground mentality." What is a battleground mentality is Offliner always seeming to be the first to show up at these affairs to denounce those who he considers his editorial opposition. I'll spare diffs on his block shopping with regard to myself. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 20:05, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I think Biophys is not sincere here. He has a long history of gaming the system, virtuously using the Wikipedia's rules against his opponents. Currently he is involved in a dispute in Communist terrorism trying to re-create this article and push material from a highly biased Black Book of Communism. He cited his topic ban as an obstacle for further discussion about this topic.
Also note that the topic ban imposed on Biophys is very narrow. It does not include Eastern Europe and Communism in general, but only the USSR-related topics. I doubt he is able to contribute constructively in this area judging from previous his contributions.
--Dojarca (talk) 17:44, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
Also note the Biophys sanction: Biophys is banned from editing articles about the Soviet Union and former Soviet Republics, and all related articles, broadly construed, for a period of no less than 1 year. At the end of 1 year, Biophys may apply to have the ban reviewed by the arbitration Committee.
So this application should be dismissed based only on the previous decision, because Biophys currently has no right to request the review of the ban.--Dojarca (talk) 07:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
As far as I remember from my contacts with Biophys, he was very experienced in gaming the system. One of his tactics was moving from his battleground topic area temporalily, only to avoid sanctions, and restart his battle later. He several times declared retirement from Wikipedia during his arbitration cases (recently he asked to delete his userpage to remove traces of this multiple retirements). This recent comment by Biophys: "Besides, what difference does it make if someone follows the rules because he is now a different person or because he does not want to be a subject of sanctions?" gives reason to suspect that Biophys has not really changed his outlook, and only active sanctions keep him from returning to his battleground activity. --DonaldDuck (talk) 08:41, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Biophys states, "I may have a bias related to human rights issues, no matter if the victims were Russian, German or Korean". Yet in all cases the perpetrators were Communists. He also states, "my edits usually describe mainstream majority views and are referenced to books by the best experts, as in the diffs above". But the sources used include the Mitrokhin Archive, The Black Book of Communism, and The Dictators: Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia, all of which are controversial books published outside the academic mainstream (although the Black Book was later republished by the Harvard University Press). A lot of conflict could be avoided if there were tighter restrictions on sources used, as for example in WP:MEDRS. In a Climate Change case, an editor was "prohibited from introducing a new source, with some exceptions such as articles published in peer-reviewed journals, books published by a well-regarded academic press, or newspaper articles published in the mainstream media...without first clearing the source ...."[114] A prohibition of that nature to all editing on these articles could be helpful. TFD (talk) 16:58, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
As long as the person says he will abide by the rules, and does abide by the rules, there is no reason to iterate accusations that one does not believe him. This applies no matter what the topics are, nor what biases are seen by those who know the "truth" on any topic. And, as always, I find draconian punishmnets to be quite counter-effective. Collect (talk) 20:36, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
I was involved in the original Russavia-Biophys case, after Russavia continually brought complaints against myself and others forced me to act. Subsequently Russavia was restricted from interacting with former EEML members and this remedy has been remarkably successful, freeing him from the incentive for stalking for violations and allowing us to contribute in a more collegiate environment. This kind of interaction ban does not prevent people from working together on the same topic because it allows for necessary dispute resolution born out of legitimate content dispute, as interpreted by the admins patrolling AE. But it stops the perpetuation of the battleground as it forces people to either work together or ignore each other by taking away the easy option of block shopping. Therefore I request that this interaction restriction be extended to a couple more people.
When User:Offliner accuses Biophys of "battleground mentality", he doesn't come here with clean hands. As I recall, Offliner was previously involved in the harassment and outing of Biophys that was perpetrated by Russavia. Offliner was recently site banned for six months for engaging in the most extreme battleground behavior of posting a link to a freezepage of material he knew to be soon oversighted. Just recently he launched yet another Arbitration enforcement case against Vecrumba [115] in conjunction with User:Petri Krohn. Petri Krohn has also been site banned by both the Committee and the community. Note that Krohn launched a bogus SPI case, and both of them have involved themselves in continuing their battleground having involved themselves in another recent failed AE request against myself[116].
Just as the Committee has grown tired of seeing the same old names over and over again, I am tired of it too. Very tired. We all want to move on. Except that Offliner and Petri Krohn seem to be stuck in the battleground headspace of 2009. Their ugly tactics are not constructive and have no place in Wikipedia. There is absolutely no attempt on their part at building a collegiate environment let alone engage in productive discussion, unlike other editors who have expressed such a willingness to work together. As univolved BorisG stated in regard to Offliner's latest AE case, this needs to stop.
Therefore I ask the ArbCom to amend Remedy 1 to:
--Martin (talk) 04:46, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
@Shell, sorry perhaps I didn't articulate this clearly above: an associated interaction restriction is related to Biophys' original request. With any relaxation of Biophys' topic ban, as they would not like such an outcome, it is highly likely either Offliner or Petri Krohn would agitate some kind of action or pile on into any future dispute involving Biophys, if their recent track record indicated above is anything to go by. Note that User:Dojarca appears to be associated with Petri Krohn, having proxied for him in the past, I would check his edit history, one of his first edits after an eight month absence was to comment here. Offline co-ordination? --Martin (talk) 23:44, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I personally do not have any problems with debating anything at all with Petri, Offliner and Russavia if needed. I would even suggest lifting the interaction ban for Russavia with myself, rather than imposing new bans. Biophys (talk) 17:19, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm commenting here as an uninvolved admin. Recently some cases have been filed at WP:AE involving Eastern Europe, so I've had to study the record of some of the EEML editors. Here are my impressions about User:Biophys and on the wisdom of lifting the topic ban imposed on him due to the Russavia-Biophys case in May, 2010.
His multiple retirements are curious. His lack of talk page archiving is a problem for any admin who wants to check out his record. He apparently has a sincere interest in improving Russian articles, but his interests do include a lot of cutting-edge hot-button topics where controversy is inevitable. In many cases he has handled the controversy poorly. (Note the first four blocks in his block log, from early 2007, where he clashed with Vlad Fedorov repeatedly). By joining the EEML mailing list he exhibited bad judgment. Due to the many troubles in Eastern European topics, it would be understandable if Arbcom were to gradually crank up the sanctions in those cases where lighter measures have not stopped the editing problems. The WP:EEML case was closed in December 2009. The submissions in the Russavia-Biophys Arbcom case date from mid-2010 and they don't reflect well on Biophys.
In a recent posting on his talk page BIophys stated "I feel extremely uncomfortable knowing that someone is looking over my shoulder to report me on AE if I quote Landau or Pyotr Chaadaev." He must surely be aware that this is not the type of issue where he got into trouble in the past. He did not get into edit wars for quoting the 18th-century Russian philosopher Pyotr Chaadaev. Since Chadaev did not live in a country called the Soviet Union, he is not included in the topic ban anyway. If Biophys wants to work on culture or science related articles that connect to the Soviet Union, and may be covered by his ban, let him present the list for Arbcom's review here. I'd also suggest that Arbcom request him to set up talk page archiving, though not mandate it . I would not favor lifting the interaction ban between Russavia and Biophys, and suggest that Arbcom limit the present request to matters concerning Biophys. The wider picture would need a separate request. EdJohnston (talk) 21:16, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
You're right about the interaction ban. Russavia is prohibited from "commenting on or unnecessarily interacting with editors from the EEML case.." per WP:ARBRB#Remedies but you are not banned from interacting with him, at the present time. This is because only the editors that were sanctioned by name in WP:EEML were banned from interacting with Russavia. EdJohnston (talk) 17:58, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
The way I read the the decision "Soviet Union and former Soviet Republics" would cover anything to do with Russia. Biophys's areas of conflict seem to be communism and the Putin administration.
I would support a narrowing of the topic ban to exclude pre-revolutionary Russia – including her Empire – and other non-political topics. (Note, that in the Soviet Union everything was political.)
An absolute minimal wording for a topic ban for some EE problem editors would be that they should not introduce "any content (edit, section or article) that describes or tries to describe Soviet rule in the Baltics or Eastern Europe as illegal or oppressive or communism as immoral or criminal." As Biophys clearly has a conflict with modern Russia, this wording would not be sufficient. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:22, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
As a result of Martintg's latest comment I am withdrawing my statement. I cannot see any reason why he had to drag my name into this case earlier and yet again make even more accusations. I am in no way involved with Biophys and have only communicated or commented on him in an earlier WP:AE case.
Under the present circumstances I see little other ways out of this than reopening EEML and permabans for its members.
Martintg, I ask you remove or strike out your comment. If you do that, I will strike out this comment and restore the previous one. As for now I am not even going tho comment on the Pyotr Chaadayev / David Satter issue. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Biophys, you know very well that your problem is your bias. The hardest bias I ever seen here in Wikipedia. You are not neutral editor. Nothing has really changed since 2007. Your repeated attempts to game the system failed. Just let's return to Stomakhin. So was he really innocent, dissident, prisoner of conscience? You tried to delete repeatedly his paranoid fascist calls to exterminate all Russians, just to see that phrase return to the article again - Boris Stomakhin. You tried to spam the article with undue weight account of so-called human rights defenders, just to support your personal POV. Just compare the current article with your so highly insisted version after you kicked me out of WP with the help of your "friends". Even without me the article returned to what I wrote about him, and even "worse". What was the point of your holy crusade against me, then? Even now, you, most likely, do not understand the point I try to make. You are blind. You just waisted everyone's time here. That is the point. Vlad fedorov (talk) 21:04, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Cptnono (talk) at 08:24, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
1/rr was just rolled out across the topic. It has already proven to not mean much but the main reason I am bringing this up here is because editors do not know where to take requests for enforcement. There will be violations even though we all wish they didn't come up. Does it come to AE or the edit warring noticeboard?
I think that edit warring noticeboard is more adept at handling simpler, first-time infractions of the 1RR sanction, while more problematic, long term, serial sanction violators should be referred to AE. Just my two cents. ← George talk 08:34, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Requests to enforce the 1RR itself can be taken to AN3. If you ask for action to be taken under the discretionary sanctions provision (i.e., beyond a simple 1RR block), take it to AE. T. Canens (talk) 08:54, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Some 3RR cases from October 2010 involving Arbcom sanctions
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Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive142#User:Sulmues reported by User:Athenean (Result: 2 weeks/1RR 6 months) 16 October, 2010 User was cited for long-term edit warring on articles subject to WP:ARBMAC2. Blocked two weeks, put under 1RR per the discretionary sanctions. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive142#User:Hammer of Habsburg reported by User:Taivo (Result:48 hours ) User:Hammer of Habsburg reported by User:Taivo (Result:48 hours ) 19 October 2010 Violation of a 1RR restriction imposed under WP:ARBMAC Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive142#User:Prunesqualer reported by User:Jiujitsuguy (Result: No violation) 20 October 2010 Claimed violation of a 1RR restriction imposed under WP:ARBPIA. The admin did not judge that it was a violation of 1RR; closed as No Violation. (Eventuallly he got blocked anyway for 24 hours, not sure where it was discussed). |
-- EdJohnston (talk) 06:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK at 23:19, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
As I have not received an answer to my request elsewhere (diff immaterial), I would like the expiration of my topic ban clarified: is it the date per the original topic ban or is it extended by intervening blocks? For completeness, whether or not later undone, that would be an additional 3 weeks plus 24 hours plus 24 hours. The sanction states consecutive with any editing ban, and I am unclear as to whether blocks apply.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Mathsci (talk) at 03:55, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Please click to expand
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At the close of the case WP:ARBR&I, I readily agreed with arbritators on a topic ban by mutual consent, even after an arbitrator had suggested a shorter topic ban, which would have been over by now. I agreed to this because I no longer had any interest in editing content in the area of race and intelligence, broadly construed, and because, as I said during the case, my presence editing articles was wholly dispensable and completely desirable. My compliance and agreement with almost every point made by arbitrators significantly shortened the closing of arbitration. My topic ban was carefully formulated and did not apply to process pages and noticeboards. During and after the close of arbitration, Captain Occam, joined by his girlfriend Ferahgo the Assassin, have militated to have sanctions imposed on other editors, notably WeijiBaikeBianji (talk · contribs) (and to a lesser extent Muntuwandi (talk · contribs)). Third parties have appeared on wikipedia in the past month or so, since a topic ban was imposed on Ferahgo the Assassin, whose sole purpose so far has been wikihounding and harassing WeijiBaikeBianji. I have communicated off-wiki with arbitrators about some of these issues, in particular Shell Kinney and Newyorkbrad, which are violations of the topic bans of Captain Occam and Ferhago the Assassin. On specific occasions it has been suggested that I contribute to arbitration noticeboards. I have additionally been asked asked whether information I have provided can be passed on to other arbitrators. I have no views on the editing of WeijiBaikeBianji. I made a brief statement containing only one very general piece of constructive advice on methods of editing and adding sources that would apply to any editor.[118] Since the close of arbitration, Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin's activities in militating have not declined and the reports I recently made to WP:AE reflect this renewed activity. This has resulted in a logged warning for Woodsrock (talk · contribs), for personal attacks, and a block for Ferahgo the Assassin (talk · contribs) for tracking his edits. In my perception both incidents formed part of a campaign of harassment and wikihounding of WeijiBaikeBianji. Another example are these kind of edits by a newly arrived editor. [119], [120][121] In addition I have identified and reported a series of troubling sockpuppets of Mikemikev (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), some with specifically antisemitic overtones, including Suarneduj (talk · contribs), Juden Raus (talk · contribs), RLShinyblingstone (talk · contribs) and Oo Yun (talk · contribs). I am requesting that arbitrators please clarify the particular nature of my topic ban by mutual consent and whether it should in future apply to process pages, for which there has been no indication so far. Please could arbitrators also provide guidance for administrators overseeing the arbitration noticeboards as to whether they may change the nature of carefully formulated topic bans of this kind.
I have made two requests on ArbCom noticeboards since WP:ARBR&I was closed on August 26 2010:
ArbCom carried out a checkuser on the two users mentioned above. From what I understand ArbCom is concerned about issues connected with meatpuppetry. Several administrators made comments about that in the first request. After the extension of the topic ban to cover RfCs was announced, Ferahgo the Assassin posted five times to the RfC/U in question: [123] [124] [125] [126] [127] I mentioned this to EdJohnston in a recent email. It seems unlikely that ArbCom would impose restrictions on participating in RfC/Us. In almost all circumstances they concern issues of user conduct not content editing. My outside view in this particular RfC/U, which does not conform to standard RfC/Us, was anodyne and commonplace, having no relation whatsoever to any kind of topic ban.[128] I have also contributed to the RfC/U on YellowMonkey and will continue to do so while views are still being posted. If any administrator attempted to block me for doing so, I assume that they would risk being desysopped by ArbCom.
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Since this thread discusses both me and Ferahgo, I think Mathsci should have notified us about it, but now that I’ve found it I’ll offer a statement here.
As someone who was accused of meatpuppetry in one of Mathsci’s recent AE threads, I beg to differ with the assertion that Mathsci’s participation in process pages has been completely harmless. I would recommend that arbitrators read this thread before concluding that Mathsci is correct to claim this. Apparently Mathsci is convinced that Woodsrock and Sightwatcher are both meatpuppets of mine, and this has resulted in a week-long AE thread, although almost none of the people commenting (and no admins) have believed that there’s a good reason to assume this. Even so, Mathsci is continuing to claim that I am violating my topic ban (as in the statement above), and bringing up this accusation in unrelated discussions where the accounts that he suspects of being meatpuppets have participated. (Such as here). I have neither been blocked nor warned for violating my topic ban since the end of the arbitration case, and as far as I know Sightwatcher and Woodsrock are just a pair of new uses who happen to disagree with Mathsci (although I admit it wouldn’t hurt for Woodsrock to improve his civility), and for Mathsci to keep bringing up this accusation against us is very irritating.
More importantly, dealing with these accusations first from Muntuwandi and now from Mathsci has made it very difficult for me to work on the other articles that I’d like to. My style of editing is that I prefer to fully focus on one article at a time, and not allow myself to be distracted by anything else until I’m reasonably satisfied with it, but this requires me not having to constantly deal with accusations being made against me. During the three months since the end of the arbitration case, there has only been around one month during which I was left alone sufficiently to do this, during which I wrote the New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case article. I had been hoping to get started on my planned rewrite of the William Beebe article over the past week—I’ve now done all of the research that I need to for it—but while Mathsci is continuing to badger me, that’s not possible.
As can be seen from the proposed decision page before Mathsci volunteered to be topic banned by consent, when he agreed to this the arbitrators were already voting in favor of him receiving a topic ban identical to the one received by me and David.Kane, and opposing the lesser remedy for him. The only reason Mathsci received a topic ban that was voluntary rather than involuntary is because he volunteered for this four days before the case closed. The “Review of topic bans” decision also states that applications for topic bans to be lifted will not be considered less than six months before the close of the case. To make an exception to this in Mathsci’s case because his topic ban was voluntary would send a message that any time an editor is clearly going to be sanctioned in an arbitration case, he can avoid being subject to some aspects of the ruling by volunteering to receive the sanction that arbitrators are already voting for. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I don’t think it’s a bad idea in principle to extend topic bans to all discussions related to the articles in question, and I know this has been done with topic bans from other arbitration cases. But I have some concerns about the process by which EdJohnston made a decision in this particular case. When I discussed this with EdJohnston in his user talk, he said that I should ask ArbCom about it in this thread, so I’m doing so. The thread where I explained my concerns to him is here. Since EdJohnston has suggested that ArbCom examine this situation, I think arbitrators should read the thread there.
As I stated there, EdJohnston originally suggested in the AE thread that this expansion of topic bans from the R&I case be extended for Mathsci as well as me and Ferahgo, because he and Timothy Canens both felt that all three of us have contributed to the continued conflict over these articles. Mathsci subsequently contacted both of these admins privately via e-mail, and shortly thereafter, EdJohnston and Timothy Canens decided to sanction me and Ferahgo but not Mathsci. No other admins commented in the discussion about this. As far as I know, after EdJohnston’s original proposal to sanction all three of us, the only thing that changed about the situation was Mathsci e-mailing him. (Unless you count Mathsci’s new comments directed at Cirt, but those would argue in favor of him being included in the additional sanctions, not against this.)
In the discussion in his user talk, EdJohnston has said that his decision in the AE thread was not influenced by Mathsci’s e-mails. He also said in this comment there that once Mathsci began e-mailing him, it would have been a good idea for him to close the AE thread with no action, in order to avoid the appearance of being influenced by private correspondence. But even though EdJohnston clearly agrees that it would not have been appropriate for him to let e-mails from one of the involved parties in an AE thread influence his decision there, he has not been willing to explain what other than Mathsci’s e-mails caused him to change his mind about his initial proposal to sanction all three of us equally.
I consider this a problem for two reasons. First, even though EdJohnston is basically agreeing that it might have been a better idea for him to close the thread with no action in order to avoid the appearance of being influenced by private correspondence, he is not willing to do anything to reverse the fact that he’s created that impression. He’s unwilling to reverse the decision he made there, and he’s also unwilling to explain what caused his reversal of opinion about sanctioning all of us equally. And second, according to this decision from a past arbitration case, EdJohnston has a responsibility to explain why he chose to sanction me without sanctioning Mathsci. EdJohnston has not explained this, despite my asking him about it several times in his user talk. According to this arbitration principle, if EdJohnston was not prepared to justify the reason for this decision in public, he should not have made it. (And as stated in the comment that I linked to, EdJohnston seems to agree that perhaps he should not have made this decision, but he’s still not willing to undo it.)
Can ArbCom clarify what’s the appropriate course of action here? This is the first time I’ve ever had an admin sanction me and then later express uncertainty over whether it might have been a better idea to take no action, while still being unwilling to reverse their decision. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:24, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
I'd like the ban to include RfCs connected to the topic, broadly construed. I struggle to see how the involvement of any of these three editors at the RfC concerning user:WeijiBaikeBianji is not going against the purpose of the topic ban. I also think that MathSci's repeated allegations that the RfC has been instigated by the other two need to stop. There is no evidence for this that I have seen, and it heightens tension when all the active editors in the area want WBB to do is WP:HEAR the concerns of other editors, and not edit against consensus or be "bold" when it's really unwise to be. RfCs are not there to enforce sanctions, and we are not "reporting" WBB, but trying to bring him into a better mode of editing.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:02, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The constant stream of administrative complaints from topic banned users is a proxy way of influencing articles in this area. The single-purpose accounts is probably another. Presumably NYB & Shell intend to carve a "whistleblower" role for Mathsci, who will exclusively deal with filing administrative requests in this topic area from now on, in contrast to the other topic banned users who, by emerging AE consensus, aren't going to be allowed to do this anymore. Tijfo098 (talk) 11:52, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
I remain of the view that input by topic-banned editors in topic-related processes, including DR, is neither necessary or helpful in general, nor useful in this case. All it seems to accomplish is to encourage the topic-banned users to continue to snipe at each other and watch the topic area closely, personalizing the disputes further and fostering battleground behavior, instead of properly disengaging. The fact that no admin was inclined to address the bulk of Mathsci's most recent enforcement request before it was archived for the first time is telling. T. Canens (talk) 16:04, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The ambiguities in arb comm's sanctions and/or advice only inspired Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin to explore all manner of alternatives to influence the articles *besides* directly editing them after their topic bans, including the one-sided schmoozing and prospecting for proxy edits on user talk pages. The both of them tune out what they don't want to hear, so hints and fuzzy lines merely open doors to crazy-making. For their own sakes they should be given bright white boundary lines.
Mathsci's continued involvement seems to have limited itself to sniffing out socks and trolls, which have been springing up like mushrooms. It's a delicate balance - between WP:BITE and WP:DUCK. But he's not shooting wildly - his targets (rightly or wrongly) fit the profile of socks (new and sleepers) - and he's got a lot of company sharing his suspicions. I'm suspicious too--we're seeing a rash of newly hatched newbies who are just way too comfortable with wp, with policy, editing tools, userboxes, with template and article creation, with subscription only access to professional journals used in references, and several (most bizarrely) adopting a peculiarly skewed interest in the tedious arbitration conducted months before they registered. Off-site recruitment was an objection raised against some of the now topic banned users during the arbitration. Despite sharing some of his suspicions, I myself wouldn't go so far as Mathsci to blame Captain Occam of instigating here. Yes, there is a history, a pattern, but for me I know that the editing of articles with kinds of back-page baggage as these involved articles have inherited can get derailed by juvenile hijinks and intrigues pointing in any number of directions, always at the expense of those focused on the "substance" in disputes.
With that said, I really don't see that mathsci's involvement has been disruptive. He's been civil-magnanimous even. I generally try to "tune out" or wp:DENY those I suspect of being trolls, socks or proxies--but I realize they are disruptive and somebody needs to meet them head on. Since the accusations against him he acknowledged when he voluntarily imposed (later ratified by arb comm) his own topic ban narrowly focused on incivility, I again come back to--I don't see where he's being uncivil. In other words, I think the disruptions were already there--Mathsci's involvement simply forced attention on them via the dispute channel or WP styled "chain of command". Professor marginalia (talk) 08:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Please see the result of a request at Arbitration Enforcement. Wider topic bans were imposed on Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin. For convenience the Sanction portion of the AE is reproduced in the box below:
Sanction per the recent AE request |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Sanction
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This thread was closed with no sanctions on Mathsci. Obviously Arbcom can make a decision to lift Mathsci's ban if they want to. The AE request mentioned the behavior of two new editors who have recently become active on R&I, and might possibly be socks:
Woodsrock has made some personal attacks, and was notified of the R&I discretionary sanctions by MastCell on 22 November. He has not edited Wikipedia since then. SightWatcher seems to be more of a good-faith editor, and I don't see any misbehavior yet that would justify notification under the R&I sanctions. EdJohnston (talk) 19:11, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
I find the extent of alleged private e-mailing in this case to be disturbing. Although I expect it does not breach the rules, it gives the impression, true or false, of backstairs cronyism. Disciplinary matters of this nature should be conducted in a completely transparent manner. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC).
I would ask the Arbitration Committee to briefly review two AE threads: this thread discussing multiple editors and this recent appeal by Captain Occam. Could MathSci and ArbCom please note some specificity regarding involvement insofar as complained areas? I, as an administrator currently active on AE, would like some bright line clarification. I want a nice clear line drawn between mudslinging/battling and useful good faith assistance with disruption. If this is not an all or nothing disengagement, I want to know the exact limits of that something explicitly in a short statement. It will cut through a major portion of noise and answer a major, recurring point. Thank you. Vassyana (talk) 20:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)