This case is now closed and pages relating to it may no longer be watched
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Case clerks: L235 (Talk) & Callanecc (Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Guerillero (Talk) & NativeForeigner (Talk)
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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
Collect's contribution history consists of constructive editing overshadowed by a long-term pattern of BATTLEGROUND behavior and Gaming the system. His user page, user talk page, subpages (User:Collect/BLP), and essays such as WP:Mutual admiration society, WP:Sledgehammer, Collect/Pissing on essays one does not like loudly testify to his combative approach. He has an extensive block log for edit warring, and has edit warred other times without consequence ([1] [2] [3] [4]). His comments during content disputes are typically acerbic, dismissive, misleading and unyielding. He has misrepresented facts ([5] [6][7] [8] [9]), made WP:POINTY edits ([10] [11] [12]), forum shopped/canvassed ([13] [14] [15]), made carefully worded personal attacks ([16] [17]), and compared editors' contributions with McCarthyism ([18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23]).
Collect persistently claims BLP violations at various fora, but when asked to substantiate his claims, he frequently evades providing straightforward answers ([24]), instead weaving convoluted semi-explanations and inapt analogies. Other times he simply doesn't answer legitimate questions. He insists on an unusually high, non-negotiable standards for BLP to including insisting on sources that verify other reliable sources ([25]). Many times the concerns are not BLP policy concerns at all ([26] [27]). In many BLP/N discussion, consensus found that his assertions of BLP violations were unfounded, yet he often persists in filibustering, forum shopping, and "moving the goal posts"([28] [29] [30]). Many of his BLP/N reports involve Ubikwit and apparently arise out a long-term conflict between the two.
There is a theory afloat that editors who have been critical of Collect are trying to eliminate a political opponent. While I acknowledge my own (US) liberal bias, I reject the thought-terminating notion that I, or any other editor, is trying to eliminate political opponents. A small percentage of my edits have been to political articles, but I have worked collaboratively with several conservative-leaning editors on political content (evidence available on request). I have also taken Collect's side on a number of occasions ([31] [32] [33]).
Both Fyddlestix and Jbhunley made good faith efforts to request that the community examine Collect's conduct (not content) at ANI, with abundant evidence. Unfortunately they were attacked as POV pushers and radicals ([34]), and the complaint was closed after eleven hours by an administrator.
We no longer have RFC/U. The extensive history, lack of receptiveness to discussion by Collect, and the dysfunctional environment at ANI, suggests that Arbcom is the last and only resort for a fair examination of Collect's conduct.
Dear ODear ODear/Is not a's conduct should also be scrutinized for unnecessarily inflaming disputes with comments like this.
(Note: I have included editors involved in the recent content dispute related to Project for the New American Century, however several of these users are not parties to the longer term conduct issues involving Collect.)
Case scope: Collect, narrowly. NE Ent 02:07, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
I have gone into depth on this in the past here here and here. I thought it might be helpful to tell how I (as a relative neophyte) first encountered Collect:
I had no prior experience of Collect, Ubikwit, or the PNAC page prior to stumbling across these edits by Collect: 1234 5. This looked to me like WP:POINT and edit warring, so I tried to offer a compromise. Ubikwit responded nicely enough but I inferred that neither editor was going to be much interested in cleaning up the article, which was in a bad state.
I started some cleanup, but when I removed the 9/11 junk Collect replied to my talk page post, reinserted the questionable quote (which, by my count, 3 other editors had deemed wholly out of place in the article). I replied on the talk page with what I feel was a reasonable, well-thought out response, and removed the quote a second time, taking care to first add new, well-sourced text which I hoped might satisfy Collect.
Collect has treated me as an enemy ever since. He immediately filed this RFC, which as I told him, mischaracterized my position (but linked my edit). He refused to re-word it.
Since then I have observed that Collect sometimes calls for reinforcements on unrelated pages, and often cries "SYNTH" and "BLP" in situations where the violation is unclear. He refuses to reply when cornered with a request for specifics, only to reopen the debate elsewhere. Note those 2 diffs are exactly a month apart, and that the same issue is being discussed. Collect never replied to either post, but a day after the second one he did go to Jimmy Wales' UT page and posted the claim that the table was SYNTH again, without notifying any of the other parties in the debate. He then proceeded to badly mischaracterize the people debating him and his own actions. here for example he claims a group of us had "brought him" to drama boards, but Collect is the one who has made the most "board" posts by far: 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. I made one.
The final straw for me, however was his suggestion that this was my "preferred" version of the PNAC article. This is a blatant falsehood, and Collect knows that - I've done more into improve that article than anyone else in recent weeks, removing much of the material that Collect himself objected to. I know that Collect knows this, because he thanked me for my edits. Yet now he accuses me of wanting to reverse my own edits, and to restore content which he knows I oppose.
Please Note that this drama and Collect's conduct issues long predate the AFD that I and others have been accused of trying to influence by making this complaint. The article @ AFD was created, I think, to bring an end to the conflict that started here one way or another. Fyddlestix (talk) 04:22, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
I wrote up the basics on my complaint in this ANI post. The ANI that material was meant for was closed in a matter of hours. I will break out highlights as time permits. I do not know how long I have to write my statement and I want to get this material in before it closes.
I entered in to this at the 1st BLPN thread on Feb 10. My first edit to PNAC talk page March 2 2015. My first edit to PNAC article March 04 2015. My only other extended interaction with Collect was a collegial discussion on his talk page starting Mar 3 Jbh (talk) 00:12, 19 March 2015 (UTC)So I have no history of conflict with Collect or in this topic. Jbh (talk) 23:24, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Some particularly bad comments by Collect
Plain text
not code that would generate notifications and they had not been notified the thread was open. Jbh (talk) 23:46, 18 March 2015 (UTC)A good example of some of the issues - from a post at AfD -
While this is ongoing, and an AN/I thread is ongoing, this has been filed Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Collect. "May we live in interesting times" - but the primary bone of contention appears to be whether the material in this list violates WP:BLP, WP:SYNTH, or any of the other reasons presented above which, at this point, I daresay agrees with my basic stance. As it is thus intimately connected to this precise AfD, it seems proper to tell folks here about it. Cheers to all. Collect (talk) 5:45 pm, Today (UTC−4)[44]
I see no congruence between the above statement and the request made here by MrX. Jbh (talk) 00:36, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
To fail to address the behavioral issues would, in my opinion, simply push the problem into the future and result in ongoing damage to the creation of the encyclopedia. If American Politics needs to be addressed I request it be considered a seperate issue. This is a behavior issue not a content issue. Thank you for your consideration. Jbh (talk) 02:28, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
It appears that the standard "Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter" section is inadequate in this case, because of stated opinions such as "Accept as two distinct cases" and "Accept Collect case about that editor's behavioral issues. Postpone American Politics II". There should be two counts for the two proposed cases. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:00, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't have a view on the specific rights and wrongs here, because I haven't examined them. One thing does concern me, though. Whilst I can see the merits to achieving better focus by splitting into 2 cases, it seems to me that Collect is likely, then, to be "defending" himself in 2 simultaneous cases. That seems, on the face of it, a somewhat onerous expectation. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the nature of the "split" and "separation"? Begoon talk 13:42, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Having come across a recent aspect of this and looked at it in some detail, it seems to me there is a case to be made that their are WP:BATTLEGROUND issues involving this collection of editors, which the community has not resolved. As usual proper analysis of who said what about whom and when would be required to establish exactly which editors require the application of which sized trout. If it is felt that one or more editors cause disruption only when editing a certain topic, then a topic ban is clearly an option.
I would suggest caution in opening an "American Politics" case. If the AfD referred to by AlanScotteWalker (with whose comments I agree) among others reaches the "wrong" conclusion, it is hardly a significant worry, nor will it be the first, or last, AfD to do so. I strongly doubt that any action by the Committee could make a whit of difference to the alleged, and quite possible, political bias in the community. Nor do I see that placing "American Politics" (broadly construed) under any known form of sanctions would be a useful exercise. Indeed we have far too much of the encyclopedia under various forms of sanction already.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough
Suggest a decline.
I have, I think, gotten along fairly well with Mr.X, but I find this an unhelpful request. The proximate cause is apparently Collect's "obstinate" BLP stance at the PNAC AfD debate. I along with apparently 26 or 27 other editors agree with the position taken by Collect there. Two editors wanted to keep, two suggest Keep/Merge. Collect did not start the AfD. Collect made only two several edits to the AfD debate, none problematic in my view. He is reliable and consistent in his BLP stance regarless of the politics of the subjects of BLPs.
This, therefore, seems to me as a poor use of ArbComm time and resources, and perhaps even as a misuse of ArbCom in a sense. It strikes me, perhaps unfairly, that this is using the process as punishment. Capitalismojo (talk) 23:23, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Update: The AfD was closed with a delete (Collect's position) was the "clear consensus" per closer. 30 Delete, 1 Keep, 2 Keep/Merge, 5 Merge/Redirect, 1 Delete/Merge.
Mr X, without commenting on the merits of the requested case itself, I'm finding it a little difficult to match some of your comments precisely to the diffs provided in support. E.g. re. Collect misrepresenting facts: can you be more specific about the particular facts misrepresented according to diffs 23, 24, 25, 26, and 27? Similarly with the diffs 45, 46, and 47 re. filibustering, forum shopping, and "moving the goal posts"—would you be willing to give more clarity here? And also as you may deem necessary elsewhere? Thank you. Writegeist (talk) 21:49, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
((Ping|MONGO)) I don't quite see how anyone can disagree with the politics of a user who not only appears at articles on people, organizations, issues, and so on (there used to be list at his user page, which may or may not still be present there) that span just about the entire political spectrum, but who also periodically issues vehement denials of any particular bias. Reading the request for this case one can see that it was very clearly prompted, rightly or wrongly, by disagreement with behaviors, i.e. the perceived battleground mentality, system-gaming, edit-warring, dismissiveness, misrepresentations, insinuations, pointiness, personal attacks, evasions, straw men, and misuses of BLP policy, etc.; behaviors which, if long-term, ongoing, and corroborated by evidence, another user might reasonably view as sufficiently tendentious and disruptive to warrant Arbcom action. Writegeist (talk) 23:26, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
So let me get this straight: because I posted four words (Case scope: Collect, narrowly. ) suggesting the case not be about politics, I'm a "party" in the case about politics? NE Ent 02:11, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Similarly, my last comment specifically pointed out that I should not be listed as a party, since I almost never edit American Politics articles and have never been part of any dispute concerning them. Please remove me as a party pursuant to part 3B of the motion. BMK (talk) 02:26, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
According to the Arbitration Committee: "Please note: being listed as a party does not imply any wrongdoing nor mean that there will necessarily be findings of fact or remedies regarding that party." What it does is to give you the right to post 1000 words and 100 diffs in evidence if you wish to use that right. For the committee, Robert McClenon (talk) 02:44, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
This case is distinct from the Collect case, and nothing about him directly is to be part of whatever this case is about (I'm still trying to figure out why this exists) but the statements are the same, with the bulk of it about Collect. I'm sure the committee has good intentions here but I am confused.--MONGO 05:53, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
I have no edits in the area of American Politics that are not entwined in the Collect case. I believe any complaints relating to me can be addresses there. Is it possible to be removed from this case? Thank you. Jbh (talk) 16:45, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
The main page for this case is preloaded with a boatload of irrelevant and unremovable comments that have absolutely nothing to do with this case. I told you that splitting the case by motion was a bad idea but I had no idea how bad. I implore arbcom to start a fresh, new case about American politics 2 without any leftover comments about Collect, about how to best to split a case, or about users posting informal vote counts because of the original dumb decision to not tell the clerks to display the votes for each case.
I personally object to being forced to comment on an arbcom case that I did not choose to comment on. If I copied a comment by an arbitrator to another somewhat related page while keeping the signature and date intact I would be facing sanctions. Move all of the old comments to a subpage that clearly indicates the case the comments were made to and mark it historical. This is brain-dead and embarrassing. We're better than this. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:53, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
It's a little nuts that the opening statements for the Collect case and American Politics 2 are identical. It's clear, for example, in Andy's statement, that he is referring to the American Politics case but his statement is cross-posted to the Collect case. Can these two cases become disentangled? The decision was to create two separate and distinct cases and no part of them should be automatically cross-posted to the other just because the initial case request mentioned them both.
And I say this because if this practices continues, it will confuse all parties involved. Some effort needs to go into making sure these cases are separate and do not overlap in content. Liz Read! Talk! 23:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
As I mentioned in the request statement, if this case is being heard, Xenophrenic should be named as a party. I'm wondering if I can just post evidence against him and that will result in him being added, but not sure, thus this post.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 23:32, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Incidetally, the evidence has already been set forth, for the most part, in a previous request that I linked to in the statement pertaing to this case[48]. Though I pinged Xenophrenic when mentioning him in the request pertaining to this case, he didn't respond. Considering that he had been the main antagonist in the dispute on the article raised by LM2000, it would be farcical not to list him as a party.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 00:05, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I wish to be removed as a party to this case. As I stated in the case request, the case I brought is not about politics. If other editors wish to pursue such a case, I wish them well. Thank you.- MrX 00:32, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I find it deeply disturbing to be added to the Collect case, even more so to be added to this one, given that my comment was to the effect that that I could see no reason or benefit from such a case - in effect I was speaking against an idea of some Arbitrators. The message has to be - speak out against an Arbitrator and you will find yourself subject to Arbcom cases. I was against people being added to cases by fiat before, especially where the arb concerned had history with the editor they wanted adding. A blanket addition is not an improvement in process however, it is more likely to cost us valuable editors. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:07, 25 March 2015 (UTC).
Please remove me as a party to this case. This is all becoming rather irritating.
This is all very discouraging and inconvenient as a result of making one comment in a spirit of helpfulness. Thanks. Begoon talk 14:01, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
@Begoon, MrX, and Rich Farmbrough: I have removed you all as parties to this case and will move your statements to this talk page in a moment (I have not looked to see whether you should be removed from the Collect case as well). As repeatedly noted though being listed as a party to an arbitration case explicitly does not presume any wrongdoing nor indicate that findings of fact or remedies will result.
If anyone else wishes to be removed as a party from this case, please just make a simple request in this section (with a short explanation if you think it necessary) and it will be evaluated. Please use the equivalent talk page of the Collect and others case to make requests for removals from that case. Thryduulf (talk) 14:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I would also like to withdraw myself from this arbitration. From the edits on the evidence page, it appears this is devolving into what I feared. I would much rather not be involved in that. As much as my opinions are now known, I don't think being dragged down due to what this appears to becoming is something that would benefit myself, or the community at large.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I respectfully request to be removed as a party to this case. I was not an involved party in the collect case request,[49] making one brief comment on the advisability of opening the case. I have no ongoing disputes with any editors of any political persuasion and little advice to add to those who do. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:09, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
I see I have been “added by motion.” Please remove me. I’ve had precious little involvement in American political articles since the Sarah Palin circus seven years ago, where i learned my lesson. I made only one post on what is now the Collect arbcom case page, in which I simply asked for clarification from one editor as to the connection between his claims and his diffs (indeed I titled it “Request for clarification”), and queried a point of logic in a post by another. I have absolutely no interest in posting evidence to this case or participating in it in any way, despite Collect irrelevantly and gratuitously dragging me into the other one (from which I was removed by request). Thanks. Writegeist (talk) 21:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Should arbitrators who have or had been active in editing articles that can be seen as being within the scope of American politics recuse themselves from this case?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:47, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
I apologize if this is answered somewhere in the hundreds of thousands of words spread out amongst the case pages, but from glancing over this case and the Collect case, I'm struggling to see what is sought here separate from the other case. Thank you. --B (talk) 21:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
This case is focused on a broad topic and will examine allegations of misconduct within the American Politics topic, which – for the purposes of this case – also includes the Tea Party Movement topic and any United States-related overlaps with the Gun Control topic. While Collect may participate in this case, no allegations concerning him may be made within it, nor any proposed findings or remedies posted.Hope this helps, --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 01:02, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
What happened in 1932 that caused it to be used as a cutoff date? EllenCT (talk) 23:56, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Nocturnalnow at 17:45, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
I did a lot of clean up work here and added how Clinton's office was involved. The encyclopedia will not have my service on these types of articles if you leave the ban as is. I'd be much happier with a time limited or more scope limited ban, and the encyclopedia would be happier too :) Nocturnalnow (talk) 04:51, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
The checkusering of an IP which had made two comments on two separate project pages indicating a knowledge and understanding of policies, etc. can only be described as good-faith. As for narrowing the scope of the topic ban, I have no particular opinion, other than to restate the issues that Nocturnalnow presented on Huma Abedin; to wit, a persistent determination to use her Wikipedia biography to depict her in as negative a manner as possible, apparently because of his personal political disagreement with Abedin and/or Abedin's employer, Hillary Clinton. If the committee believes that Nocturnalnow can be trusted to edit other articles and biographies of modern political figures in a neutral, policy-compliant manner, I have no objection. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:25, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Nocturnalnow is understandably upset at a broad ban, particularly because his problematic editing history under this ID has been limited to Hillary Clinton and Huma Abedin. I have said before that a topic ban related to these two seems to me more appropriate than the broader ban, which seems vindictive in spirit. (I'm a disinterested editor w/o interaction history w/ Nocturnalnow or editing history on those two pages.) Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 20:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
I have no statement to make at this time. Drop me a note if my input would be valuable. NW (Talk) 22:36, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm seeing phrases like reasonable exercise of admin discretion
being used. Is the Committee considering these appeals with the standard of review being abuse of discretion? It seems bureaucratic to even use a standard of review like that (only overturning if the enforcing admin erred) rather than considering appeals fresh, on the merits, "if I were the enforcing admin, considering everything, would I have imposed this sanction or a lesser one?" -style review. If the Committee does defer to enforcing admins on appeal at ARCA, could that be made clear in the procedures? It's not currently clear that the Committee will defer to enforcing admins, or to what level the Committee will do so. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c · ping in reply) 03:56, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
I do not agree with the admin's decision and I believe that it was unfairly biased against NocturnalNow. Much of the statements that were made by NorthBySouthBaranof and others supporting the ban were discredited, including the reasoning for including two out of four of the "Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy" that were presented in the arbitration request. Disregarding the "truth-fudging" by NorthSouthBaranof, I think many reasonable and objective people would see this is minor mishap that should not result in NocturnalNow receiving topic ban from US Politics, let alone a ban from Huma Abedin.
NocturnalNow also raises a good point about the conclusion by Ed. I believe it was improper because it was determined so speedily without adequate evaluation of NorthBySouthBaranof's statements and sound reasoning provided by others who opposed the ban.
Lastly, if this ban is to be kept I suggest that NorthBySouthBaranof to receive a ban as well, else this would be evidence of a double standard on Wikipedia, because he is responsible for much of the edit warring at Huma Abedin and holds sole responsibility for the first two diffs that he himself listed under "Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy". He was found just as much responsible for the BLP violations as NocturnalNow in the very first arbitration request that he submitted against NocturnalNow, and he has again committed violations (that are worse than those committed by NocturnalNow) so he should be held to the same standard. He also appears to have a habit of using language that is unfit for Wikipedia because it does not foster constructive discussion.--Mouse001 (talk) 06:45, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Commenting to point out continued canvassing by this user (see [52]), including soliciting a response from Mouse001 who commented above. This behavior was pointed out by Gamaliel on AE in this edit. EvergreenFir (talk) Please ((re)) 20:08, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
further substantive review at any forum is barred. Thanks, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c · ping in reply) 20:15, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by StAnselm at 05:14, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
We have previously discussed this at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Unblock appeal by User:Stadscykel, but were not able to resolve the disagreement.
Coffee has placed Donald Trump and United States presidential election, 2016 under page restrictions, which includes that violations can be sanctioned without warning. Stadscykel made this edit to Donald Trump, and was blocked without warning by Coffee under discretionary sanctions. Is this a correct block per Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions? That is, does the page notice alert at Template:Editnotices/Page/Donald Trump count as a DS alert? Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions is unclear at this point. It says that "no editor may be sanctioned unless they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict". It goes on to define "aware" as (among other things) "given and/or received an alert for the area of conflict". But "alert" is defined as having the standard template message "placed unmodified on the talk page of the editor being alerted". This would seem to indicate that Stadscykel did not receive the necessary DS warning. Furthermore, if Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions mandates that all editors need to be alerted before they can be sanctioned, is Template:2016 US Election AE (which is on the Donald Trump talk page), allowed to say that editors will be "blocked without warning"? (I note that Template:Editnotices/Page/Donald Trump does not mention being blocked without warning, and there is no indication that Stadscykel ever saw the talk page notice.)
My understanding is that the editnotice does indeed qualify as the required warning. I would definitely be interested if the Committee says otherwise. Such a ruling would have an immediate effect on the GMO RFC that I and The Wordsmith are moderating, as we're using the page restriction format to enforce DS per the previous ARCAs you're aware of.
I am taking some time off to think about everything that happened today, to reevaluate my actions and to calm down some. I would appreciate if you could take that into consideration (i.e. email me if you have an immediate need for me to comment, I'll gladly provide my cell number as well if necessary). I also do not intend to rehash all of my arguments from earlier (there's an obvious sign that I'm missing something here, but I'm not going to discover the answer via those types of discussions), I would just like some guidance from the Committee so I can be that sure I'm properly enforcing your actions.
I apologize to The Wordsmith for leaving him with most of the work on the RFC for a bit, but I feel it's best for me to reset before I move forward. Thank you for your assistance in this matter. Signing off... — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 08:35, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
You must not make more than one revert per 24 hours to this article, must not reinstate any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining firm consensus on the talk page of this article and are subject to discretionary sanctions while editing this page.. I hope that the wording is now satisfactory to the Committee. Please inform me if I need to change anything else. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 00:43, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
It is obvious that the editnotice does not consitute the required alert. Indeed, Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Alerts says clearly that the alerts "only count as the formal notifications required by this procedure if the standard template message – currently ((Ds/alert)) – is placed unmodified on the talk page of the editor being alerted".
Besides, I disagree with the content of Template:2016 US Election AE created by User:Coffee and placed by him on the talk pages of the relevant articles, particularly with the section "Further information" and, more precisely, the sentence "Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked without warning by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence", as nothing in the current rules regarding the discretionary sanctions suggests that. Meanwhile, I agree that the sentence (from the same template) "Discretionary sanctions can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process" describes my understanding of the current policy, though I see no way how this could have been applied to me.
I disagree that there is any sufficient reasoning why this edit should be "punished" by a block; the idea that re-stating the fact already presented otherwise in the article can be seen by an editor new to the topic as a "potentially contentious edit" (as the warning from Template:Editnotices/Page/Donald Trump tells us) is ridiculous. Indeed, the logic behind having to issue the official alert is providing the right to learn about the policy which applies to the topic in question, and having the possibility to apply sanctions if the offences continue. Besides, I do not consider this edit as contrary to the objective of the discretionary sanctions on the topic of American politics, even through it is contrary to the style guide (as discussed at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_126#RfC:_Religion_in_biographical_infoboxes), as I have neither added nor removed any fact from the article. There is no warning anywhere that the breach of this particular "style guide" (which is not presented to the editors at all), could result in a block without warning, nor is there any evidence suggesting that this type of sanctions is allowed.
My opinion is that Coffee's current application of the discretionary sanctions turns all the topics covered by discretionary sanctions into a minefield for editors not previously informed about any possible consensuses which have possibly been achieved somewhere else. I hope that the Arbitration Committee agrees with me that creating these "minefields" is not the intent of this policy. Stadscykel (talk) 10:52, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
According to WP:ACDS, "Any uninvolved administrator may impose on any page or set of pages relating to the area of conflict semi-protection, full protection, move protection, revert restrictions, and prohibitions on the addition or removal of certain content (except when consensus for the edit exists). Editors ignoring page restrictions may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator...Best practice is to add editnotices to restricted pages where appropriate, using the standard template (((ds/editnotice)))."
That would seem to suggest that the standard Editnotice is a valid method of notification, specifically for page restrictions. While this seems to be at odds with the portion mentioned above, and clarification would be beneficial, the policy clearly states that editors ignoring page restrictions (as listed in the editnotice) may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator. Coffee's block could have been handled better (though I think it is within policy, discussion would have been preferable), the unblock should have been handled better (anything marked as Arbitration Enforcement probably should not be overturned without permission from Arbcom or a strong consensus, even if you don't think AE applies). SlimVirgin [55], Trusilver [56], Dreadstar [57], and Yngvadottir [58] were desysopped for overturning Arbitration Enforcement blocks out of process, even though they all thought they were bad blocks as well, with Dreadstar even logging in their unblock message "Invalid block".
The Committee needs to clarify the editnotice issue, but they also need to make a strong statement that if something is labeled as AE and properly logged, it can't be overturned out of process even if you think it was a bad block. If an admin is abusing that by labeling regular blocks as AE, that would be grounds for desysopping, but what happened here is clearly a grey area. The WordsmithTalk to me 14:15, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
I commented on this block and unblock in the AN thread. Those comments are equally relevant here, and if it's all right, I'll simply refer to those comments rather than repeat them all here. If there are any questions I'd be happy to address them. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:57, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Like some of the others commenting below, I am a bit troubled that the focus of the discussion thus far has been on procedural clarification. Obviously, to the extent that there are issues of governance or procedure that people think are unclear, clarifying them is good. But let's not lose sight of the big picture here, which is that this was an extremely troublesome block.
How did we get to the point where a hard-working, dedicated, good-faith administrator, whom I respect, came to make such a block? Precisely by focusing too much on the wording of procedures, and "discretionary sanctions" protocols, and not enough on what is the purpose of blocking.
Blocking is a last resort. It should never become routine where good-faith editors are involved. It should never be used as a substitute for discussion with editors who can be expected to understand when expectations are explained to them. And the fact that a given page or topic-area is under discretionary sanctions, while it may justify the reasonable creation and enforcement of tighter editing rules for those pages, does not change this basic norm.
As I wrote in the AN thread, I personally wrote the requirement of a prior warning into the DS procedures nine years ago (in the Israel-Palestine case). I did so precisely to avoid the situation we have here, in which a good-faith editor new to a page made what he reasonably thought was a routine edit and is suddenly hit, not with information about how the page must be edited, not even with a warning, but with a block coming totally out of left field. There are very few, if any, situations in which such a block is warranted and this was not one of them.
The question presented is not whether the wording of the edit notice was sufficiently clear, although it obviously wasn't. The question presented is not whether an edit notice, without more, is sufficient warning that editors may be blocked for first offenses, although it obviously isn't. The question is whether editors who are acting in good faith and have no idea they are doing anything wrong should, absent extraordinary circumstances, be blocked without first being told they are violating a rule and told how they can comply with it going forward. The answer is that they should not.
I hope never to see another block like this one again. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:38, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
@Coffee: plus the arbs: It's also been pointed out to me on my talkpage that the new wording omits the usual exception for edits addressing BLP violations. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:48, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
@The Wordsmith: plus the arbs: Although I understand the rationale for a namespace-based approach in deciding whether an edit-notice without more is a sufficient DS warning, I fear that there's still too much risk of sanctioning good-faith editors who inadvertently overlook the warning. To me, I'd much rather err on the side of requiring a formal DS notice to an editor before sanctioning him or her. If we want to make exceptions, at most they should cover situations where the edit would have been obviously problematic anyway even apart from the discretionary sanctions. Administrators should be able to distinguish between a case in which an editor has obviously done the wrong thing and is rules-lawyering about the warnings, versus other cases.
In the case of doubt, there will usually be little harm to issuing the warning: Either the warned editor will misbehave just once more, in which case a sanction can follow without dispute over its fairness or legitimacy; or the editor will not misbehave again, in which case the goal has been achieved without a sanction or a block. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:10, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
It is generally recognized that enforcement of page restrictions validly imposed under discretionary sanctions do not require a prior alert. Obviously, editing a page with a DS editnotice does not mean that anyone editing that page is "alerted" to DS, only that the specific page restriction previously imposed under DS may be enforced. However:
Respectfully submitted, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 15:07, 28 June 2016 (UTC) Reformatted, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 16:16, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
I think that page sanctions are not the same as discretionary sanctions imposed under ARBCOM. My thinking is that page sanctions are blocks given out with permission of ARBCOM, but should not be considered an ARBCOM block, so that a regular appeal process can be used. Under the rules, in order for a block to be an ARBCOM block, it must have valid notices, etc. The page sanction is just used to prevent contentious edits, but is not the same as an ARBCOM block.
It should be plainly obvious that individual notification of what DS for a particular topic are. The page notices are for editors already aware of the topic Discretionary Sanctions and makes clear that the page falls under them. That doesn't mean we should presume that a page notice is sufficient to fully inform editors about the restrictions. AGF requires at least a good faith attempt to individually warn each editor about the sanctions and the topic area associated with them. If we wish to be a welcoming and safe community, admins with the block button shouldn't be the door greeters but rather should be attempting to explain the rules and what they believe is a sanctionable offense before sanctioning. It stands reason on its head to make the most unappealable block/ban also the one with least notice. A block for vandalism generally requires a warning and if it escalates to block, the appeal template can be used. But as used here, a no-warning AE block has a complicated and higher threshold for appeal. It should be more difficult to impose an AE block than than general disruption block precisely because the AE topic is more nuanced, the block more severe. --DHeyward (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
An admin has least three burdens in imposing a sanction for a page restriction violation. The first is maintaining the list of "certain content" that he is restricting. The second is to make sure consensus hasn't changed the list. The third is to inform the editor on the editors talk page about Discretionary Sanctions that allowed the list AND a pointer to the list. The burden for notice is higher for Page Sanction random content restrictions, not less.
@Kirill Lokshin: The problem is that templates for pages subject to AE DS is an overreach of the wording in the decision for pages subject to DS. The template appears to give authority to block for any contentious edit without warning as part of a page restriction, the ArbCom decision does not. --DHeyward (talk) 20:06, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
@Opabinia regalis: Okay, you got me. I am not hip enough to know what MEGO is and following the link did not help. What is MEGO and where do they camp? --DHeyward (talk) 12:05, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Speaking only to the idea of using edit notices as a replacement for the alert to a user about DS in place on a page, I strongly discourage this as an acceptable replacement. At least for myself, the appearance of a editnotice is like banner ads on other websites, and my own eyes slip right past them unless they are brightly colored, large, or something I am specifically looking for. It is very easy to miss these if you have been editing WP for long enough. On the other hand, a talk page message on the user's page is not likely to be missed, and can be readily treated as a warning directed at that user (even if it is copy-pasted warnings). Once warned about the general topic DS, those editors can continue to edit elsewhere and aware that DS applies to a certain range of topics, they should be informed enough to watch for editheaders to know whether a page falls into the same sanction or not.
Noting the other factor, this GMO RFC, if I were specifically planning to comment on an RFC, it is reasonable that a statement in the header of the RFC (not as a editnotice) is going to have to be read for anyone replying to that RFC, so in such a case, the broad alert about the existing DS can be put there instead of warning every user that replies the first time. That DS warning can be repeated in the editnotice, but I think the RFC header would be reasonable assured to be something that had to be read by all participants. --MASEM (t) 17:21, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
My trust in arbcom is not the highest, as you may know. They can pleasantly surprise me if they manage to send a clear message that an admin should at least look at an editor's contribution before blocking, and - if the victim is obviously a good-faith editor who helps this project by gnomish edits - please talk before a block ("Talk to the user who offended, tell the user how you feel about it, trying to achieve modification or revert."). The editor made three edits in 2016, so missed all discussions about religion in infoboxes, possibly even missed all discussions about infoboxes. Believe it or not: there's life on Wikipedia untouched by noticeboards. It needs preservation, not blocks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:28, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
re Kirill Lokshin: you emphesize "prohibitions on the addition or removal of certain content", but the one edit in question did not add content nor removed content, only repeated it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:47, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
re Opabinia regalis, Doug Weller and others who mentioned "potentially contentious edit": that is so vague a term that every edit can be construed to fall under it. If an edit is contentious, revert it with an explanation in the edit summary, - no need to block. If it happens again - quite likely when a new user doesn't know how to read an edit summary and only sees that their "improvement" disappeared - contact the user's talk, refer to the article talk (another secret for a new user), in other words, assume good faith, - no need to block for the first time, without warning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:30, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Not going to comment on the nature of the block as I'm not involved in the topic at all, but I'm curious for clarification since it seems difficult to say this isn't notification from a WP:COMMONSENSE approach. The edit notice clearly states discretionary sanctions are in play, and editors need to go through that notice to edit. That should be the end of that question there. If it were only just something like a 1RR notice only, I might be singing a slightly different tune in regards to awareness of DS, but editors are still expected to follow even that 1RR notice. It shouldn't be any different for awareness of DS.
Basically, if this edit notice is not appropriate for proper awareness simply because it is not listed in Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Awareness_and_alerts, we're dealing with a WP:BUREAU problem because we only need to scroll down a few sections to the page restrictions that say, Editors ignoring page restrictions may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator.
That wording should invalidate any claims that an admin cannot take action solely because the editor didn't get a talk page template. Not to mention that the user talk page template is not the only indication listed that an editor is aware of DS. The entirety of WP:AC/DS and the wording at Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Placing_sanctions_and_page_restrictions makes it clear that editors are aware even if it's not explicitly stated in the awareness section.
To cut down on this potential for bureaucracy, I would suggest adding an explicit 4th option under the awareness section that is some variation of:
This would be redundant with other wording on the page for the most part, so it's not really adding anything new that would constitute a "new rule" per se. It would however require an explicit mention of the discretionary sanctions as happened in this specific case. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:51, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm not really commenting on the central matters here, but I want to request that the Arbs be careful, in replying here, not to do any collateral damage to the GMO RfC that is in progress. There are editors who do not like what the community seems to be leaning towards, who are looking for ways to discredit the RfC process, and they will seize upon anything said by Arbs here, that could be construed as reflecting badly on how Coffee and The Wordsmith have utilized DS in carrying out the RfC. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
I read what Newyorkbrad said to the Committee about prioritizing the good of the project above rigid application of the rules, and I want to agree. Broadly speaking, it is good advice that Arbs sometimes seem to get distracted from in the course of your workload, even if you agreed with it before being elected. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:01, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
My comment is only in reference to Tryptofish and his plea to protect the GMO RfC. His statement contradicts the facts as I see them. There are serious concerns with this GMO RfC process, and they were mostly raised (before being quickly silenced by Wordsmith) before the RfC began. To say that concerns raised now (by plural editors?) are only due to RfC comments and their overall direction is pure conspiracy theory and has no place on this noticeboard sans proof.
I was the one that came across the unblock appeal. Opening up an edit window in Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, I notice the page restriction box but my eyes slide right past them without reading their substance and I scroll straight down to the editing box. One could easily argue that it is the responsibility of the individual editor to take the time to do due diligence. However, we're in an age where banner ads are viewed as intrusive annoying things and the page restriction box has all the hallmarks of a banner ad and is likely to automatically trigger the same response.
In my view, the edit notice should not qualify as appropriate warning by itself. It should serve as a reminder notice after a DS warning. Consider a speed limit sign; when you first set out learning to drive, you won't know what those white boards with a number surrounded by a red circle means, but once you do every time you see one you are reminded of what it is for. Blackmane (talk) 23:34, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
There needs to be a limit on what one administrator can impose as a sanction. I understand desperate times and all that, but this is as close to thought crime enforcement as Ive seen here. A blanket ban on "potentially contentious edits" is not a reasonable exercise of authority. Its one thing to restrict specific material, eg no one can add material about some candidate's view of the Birther movement or Black Lives Matter or whatever to the lead, or even to restrict reverts of such material, but to ban an edit to a page on the basis that some other person on the internet finds it objectionable or otherwise contentious? Regardless of whether an edit notice constitutes sufficient notice, there should be some limit on just how far an admins discretion is allowed to go. And I think a subjective open-ended restriction on edits, not even reverts but edits, should be on the other side of that acceptable sanction line. Nableezy 07:35, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
I came across the discussion at WP:AN after three users had commented, all of them expressing a view that Stadscykel should not just be unblocked, but unblocked speedily and that Coffee's block as a terrible block. With speed evidently of the essence I reviewed the block and it seemed very clear that Coffee had made a mistake, which I assumed at the time to be an honest mistake. With Coffee not around at the time to consult on the matter I took the decision to reverse the block, with a note at the AN discussion that should consensus emerge that the original block was correct I would have no objection to it being reinstated. I believe I was correct to do so and stand by my actions. It is worth noting that no administrator involved in the discussion, including Coffee, has seen fit to reinstate the block despite my comment that I would not object to that happening.
Essentially that's where my own involvement ends, other than returning to the AN discussion to try and summarise it and move towards closure. All the above was done without taking a firm view on Coffee's block of Stadscykel, but while I'm here I would like to comment on that. The block was clearly wrong; others have explained why in their words and I would like to do so in mine.
It seems a lot hinges on Coffee's assertion: "My understanding is that the editnotice does indeed qualify as the required warning." So let's look at the edit notice; it says users are not allowed to do any one of three things:
Nobody seems to be suggesting that Stadscykel breached 1RR, and rightly so: the edit in question was the user's only edit to the article. As StAnselm has pointed out a number of times, the notion of adding the subject's religion to the page has indeed been discussed and reached discussion on the talk page of the article[59]. Others have pointed to a Village Pump discussion which they believe somehow trumps [no pun intended] this, but the edit notice makes no mention of the Village Pump - it requires consensus on the article talk page and that requirement is satisfied. That leaves the third matter, of discretionary sanctions. The link in the editnotice only takes editors to a description of what discretionary sanctions are, not a list of sanctions in place on that article - so a new user to the article such as Stadscykel has no easy way of finding out what sanctions exist. But more importantly, WP:ACDS#Awareness_and_alerts is very clear about what constitutes an editor being aware of a sanction and it is equally clear that Stadscykel had not been made aware of any sanction according to that procedure. WaggersTALK 10:18, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Just to expand on Waggers comment - other than Coffee (who is obviously not impartial) subsequent further discussion by those uninvolved in no way supported Coffee's position. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:53, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Rules are meant to be used intelligently and not just applied blindly, and just because a rule might say an editor can be blocked, that does not mean they should be blocked. Discretionary sanctions are intended to provide a means to handle contentious topics and quickly deal with troublemakers, and should not be misused to clobber innocent newbies. I'd expect any admin worthy of the role to see that difference, and if they make a mistake, to see the mistake when there's a clear consensus pointing it out to them. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:22, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
An editnotice or DS banner should be considered sufficient notice for anyone editing the page (they can't miss it). A page-top banner (like those atop the talk pages of most any article subject to DS) should be considered sufficient notice for anyone editing the page in multiple sessions (i.e., they've had plenty of time to notice). Speaking in general, and thinking of an entirely different case: People who are long-time disruptors of, and among the most active editors at, a page with such banner, and obviously fully aware of the DS, have escaped DS enforcement multiple times because their personal user talk page didn't have a ((Ds/alert))
on it in the last 12 months.
It's utterly pointless rule-creep and bureaucracy to let this kind of system-gaming continue by bad-apples ruthlessly wikilawyering the WP:AC/DS wording, or because admins who'd like to issue a sanction aren't certain they can. (And in some cases they end up sanctioning only one side of a dispute, the one that doesn't have personal notice, instead of both when they deserved it; I've seen this end up with AN overturning their action as punitive and uneven-handed, which doesn't look good for the admin.) A further problem here is that we all know by now that actually leaving someone ((Ds/alert))
is uniformly perceived as a threat or WP:JERK move, and simply escalates already tense situations, with the result that fewer editors will leave the alerts, so more bad-actors will escape sanctions. I've been raising these problem for over two years now, and nothing over gets done about it. Please do something about it, finally.
I offer no opinion on whether Coffee's block action was evenhanded or an overreaction to the specific content in question, since I didn't observe it, and I don't want to get involved in inter-personal drama, only address the systematic WP:PROCESS problem of granting people exploitable loopholes to use for sanction-gaming. The point of this ARCA seems to be whether an admin can be punished/admonished for assuming that WP:BUREAU and WP:COMMONSENSE aren't magically inapplicable here and that sanction-gaming must be permitted if any interpretation of WP:AC/DS can seem to be bent to allow for it.
PS: I say that as someone whose comments in the RfC were hatted by Coffee until I revised them (and I didn't like it, and thought about citing WP:IAR for reasons clear from the RfC's talk page), so I'm not showing up as part of some kind of "protect Coffee!" fan club (nor am I all that irritated about it any more). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 18:01, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
While I haven't paid much attention to the Donald Trump page, when Coffee says that a "1RR restriction creates an issue wherein a drive-by editor can easily force the same issue when adding content that has not existed in the article before (as long as only one content editor is actively watching the article)", I find it extremely unlikely that that would ever be the case with the article for the candidate of one of the two main US presidential parties. Vandalism on those pages is usually reverted near-instantly, for instance. Obviously having something decided by revert-wars and the rules governing reverts is bad, but as a general rule I find hard to believe we'd end up in a situation where something glaringly bad (or, for that matter, remotely controversial) was added to such a high-profile article with only one person objecting.
Beyond that it's just common sense that a user isn't going to anticipate that adding a religion entry to the sidebar will get them immediately banned; as someone who hasn't been following discussions there, I had no idea it was remotely controversial myself. Requiring that new editors carefully assess the consensus on the talk page for every single edit prior to making it just doesn't seem reasonable to me. Things like that (where a well-meaning new user arrives at a controversial article and makes a change that goes against an established consensus without realizing that it's controversial) are part of the reason we have WP:BRD. Even in articles under discretionary sanctions, and even when the user has been informed of the sanctions, an instant block with no warning should be reserved for situations where the edit in question is so clearly controversial or drastic as to imply bad faith; putting that Trump's religion is Presbyterian in the infobox obviously just doesn't qualify. --Aquillion (talk) 07:24, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Having said that, I'm actually more interested in the content of the edit notice rather than its form. WP:AC/DS#Page restrictions allows administrators to impose "semi-protection, full protection, move protection, revert restrictions, and prohibitions on the addition or removal of certain content" (emphasis mine). My interpretation of this rule is that a restriction of this sort must define some specific content that cannot be added or removed, in sufficient detail that an editor can determine whether an edit they wish to make would breach the restriction. Consequently, I'm unconvinced that a blanket prohibition of "potentially contentious edits" is an acceptable form of discretionary sanction under this clause. Coffee, could you comment on your interpretation of this requirement and your rationale for imposing this particular sanction? Kirill Lokshin (talk) 14:39, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
So, to the point and all that--I suppose the block did not formally break any of our procedures, and I also agree that an edit notice should be enough. But that a block can be made from the point of view of some procedure doesn't mean everything. Good-faith editors editing in contentious articles who may not be completely aware of all the ins and outs shouldn't be blocked just because they can be blocked. Frequently, as in this case, it requires some serious background information to decide if something is contentious or not, to which extent simple factual verification isn't enough, how certain biographical facts are to be weighed. I would like for more administrators to check in regularly with sanctioned areas to see if they can help--not by notifying and logging and blocking and all that, but by talking to editors. Drmies (talk) 22:29, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Elvey at 03:02, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Neither the case, nor Wikipedia:AC/DS, to which "standard discretionary sanctions" ("SDS") is sometimes linked, defines what SDS are. (This is particularly important given that, apparently, they change over time.)
If it means this, it needs to say so:
((Ds/editnotice|must not make more than [[WP:1RR|one revert per 24 hours to this article]], must not reinstate any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining firm [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] on the talk page of this article|topic=ap))
(And if so, a standard template (that can be edited when the definition of SDS changes) would be a good idea, say, ((DS/SDS-editnotice)), rather than bespoke ones, which should be deprecated.)
((2016 US Election AE))
Any user can put a ((2016 US Election AE)) tag on the talk page of an article in AP2. - per Courcelles |
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by KINGOFTO at 21:10, 5 November 2016 (UTC) WITHDRAWN by KINGOFTO (talk) 00:53, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
WITHDRAWN by KINGOFTO (talk) 00:53, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm uninvolved in this, but as I looked deeper, I felt compelled to recuse and write a statement. @KINGOFTO: You were asked time and time again not to reinstate the tags. In fact, you were explicitly informed that you may not reinstate contested edits and of the contents of the editnotice (which is always visible when editing the page) you claim you didn't see – and responded to that. And then, in yet another violation of the DS-authorized editnotice-displayed page sanction, you made the exact edit you were asked not to and that has absolutely no consensus. Under those circumstances, Bishonen was rather restrained in only banning you from Donald Trump, and this ARCA request was very ill-advised. Respectfully, you'll be lucky to scoot off without more sanctions.
The amendment request should be summarily declined if it isn't withdrawn quickly by KINGOFTO. Respectfully, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 22:35, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
It's pretty clear that KINGOFTO must have seen the edit notice on Donald Trump so can't claim to be unaware of discretionary sanctions. Combine that with the number of times KINGOFTO had been told that the NPOV tag had no consensus - Discretionary sanctions alerts on the user talk page contains a clear example - and the addition of that tag by KINGOFTO couldn't fail to attract a sanction. 'Shonen was quite right to impose an indefinite topic ban from Donald Trump topics, in my humble opinion. As there's no evidence that KINGOFTO has learned anything from the sanction, there really is no argument for removing it.
The other question is whether a user can waste other editors' time at this venue without WP:BOOMERANG applying. I'm generally loathe to see anything that would discourage editors from seeking redress from ArbCom, but in this case I'm willing to make an exception. --RexxS (talk) 23:00, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by ResultingConstant at 15:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Does the WP:ARBAPDS DS covering "post-1932 politics of the US" cover only narrowly "politics" (eg, politicians, laws, elections, etc) or more broadly, all events/movements which had political impact (for example, gun violence, race relations, LGBT issues, etc)
Specifically, I am raising this clarification request, because I just gave a DS alert to someone regarding Emmett Till, regarding an ongoing RFC and an ongoing (mostly acceptable) dispute/debate regarding the lead. But after giving the alert, I realized it is ambiguous as to if the Till article would actually be subject to the AP DS or not.
I can see strong arguments in either direction, certainly many of the "broad" topics had very great impacts on politics and had very obvious political linkages, but a broad interpretation risks putting basically all of US history, culture, current events etc under DS, as almost everything had some political impacts.
Per the "Collect" case, it would seem there is some precedent for the "broad" interpretation : Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Collect_and_others This case is focused on a broad topic and will examine allegations of misconduct within the American Politics topic, which – for the purposes of this case – also includes the Tea Party Movement topic and any United States-related overlaps with the Gun Control topic.
I am not linking the target of the alert here, because I don't consider them a "party" to an issue as of yet, as I am just asking for clarification, but if I need to link them, please let me know ResultingConstant (talk) 15:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
It seems obvious (to me at least) that page would need to have some disruption that would benefit from discretionary sanctions. Once that has occurred, I thought the admin moderating the disruption would place the page under DS and log it as a discretionary sanction. I've seen pages where editors have randomly placed the banner but absent an admin logging the page, it's not under DS. For an AP2 page sanction, I'd expect the admin logging the page to point to the discussion that was unproductive, intransigent or disruptive and also about American Politics. No page is inherently covered by any sanction but many quickly demonstrate its necessity. The presumption should be that page does not need DS protection until proven otherwise and the connection to an arbcom case should be obvious from the nature of the disruption/dispute. --DHeyward (talk) 01:17, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Emir of Wikipedia at 16:25, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
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Regarding WP:ARBAPDS on Talk:Donald Trump it says Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit.
At Talk:Donald Trump#False and misleading statements someone has said to me It's about reinstating an edit, not reinstating content. An edit cen be addition of content, removal of content, or change to content. In this case the edit was removal of content. That was challenged via reversion and you reinstated the removal without talk page consensus to do so
Were they correct in saying this or was I correct regarding my reversion? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:25, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
The other editor is correct. Removal of long-standing content is an edit, not a revert. ~Awilley (talk) 06:07, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
A 1932 cut-off for Donald Trump? Are we talking about the man himself or the ancient prophecy surrounding his birth? Kurtis (talk) 22:25, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Kingsindian at 10:34, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
[To clarify, I have included The Wordsmith as a party because they have in the past acted as a steward for Coffee's administrative actions.]
I am not sure this is the right venue, but I think it is. I am here seeking a relatively narrow amendment. The situation is as follows:
In May 2016, Coffee created a template (linked above) which is used on more than 100 pages dealing with American politics. The template includes a "consensus required" provision: challenged material should not be restored unless it has consensus.
FWIW, I only placed the article under 1RR/consensus required because that was what came packaged in 2016 US Election AE [template]; it wasn't so much an explicit decision to make it consensus required.
I propose that the template to be used as the "default" for post-1932 American elections contain the amendment I proposed. The amendment is modeled on the solution used in ARBPIA, and takes care of a very common justification for the "consensus required" provision (see TonyBallioni's comment linked above, for instance). This is a much more lightweight, well-tested and clearer sanction. To be clear: individual pages may still have the "consensus required" provision placed on them. In this way, collateral damage from what I consider a bad provision will be minimized. If ArbCom wishes to make an explicit statement either way (either rescinding the consensus required provision altogether, or to affirm it to be the "default"), they can also do so.
The above text is self-sufficient. In the following, I make a case for the badness of the "consensus required" provision. People can skip it if they want.
My argument hinges on two points. First, consensus on Wikipedia is mostly silent and implicit; indeed this is explicitly enshrined in policy. Second, any bureaucratic provision must prove its worth if it is to be imposed. I will now expand on each of the points.
Click here to file a request for amendment of an arbitration decision or procedure (including an arbitration enforcement sanction issued by an administrator, such as through discretionary sanctions).Did I read them wrongly? By the way, this has already been discussed on AE, and the discussion didn't go anywhere. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:24, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
In general, I will wait for a few more comments from Arbs; if they feel that AE is the best venue, I'll withdraw this and refile there. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 17:05, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree that this should be at WP:AE. ~ Rob13Talk 11:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
The main problem here appears to be that the template containing the "consensus required" provision is the only one available for administrators to use for ARBAP2 sanctions. However, there is no decision by ArbCom mandating the use of the "consensus required" provision or that template. @Kingsindian: Would it resolve your request if I created an ARBAP2 talk notice template that did not include the "consensus required" provision? (Perhaps this template could also have "If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours of the revert.") That way, administrators could still make the conscious choice to choose to use that provision on a case-by-case basis, but documentation should note that the other template is also available. Thanks, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 14:13, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by SlimVirgin at 23:37, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
I don't know whether I've filled in the template properly or whether this is the right page. This is a request about AE and Sandstein, not about a particular case. Sandstein has just closed an AE against MONGO with a three-month topic ban "from everything related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people". He did this not because MONGO had been disruptive in the content area, but because he had posted a few angry posts at AE in response to a request for action against DHeyward. The topic ban seems to me to be a category mistake. As a result of it, MONGO has retired.
There was no consensus for the ban among uninvolved admins, but Sandstein closed the discussion anyway after less than 24 hours. When I objected as an uninvolved admin by posting underneath the closed discussion as soon as I saw it (rather than reopening it), he removed my post, and when I restored it, he told me that I "may be sanctioned for disruption".
What can be done about this situation at AE, which seems to have been going on forever, that Sandstein can simply ignore the views of other uninvolved admins? I'm posting here because he has refused all requests to reopen the discussion at AE. SarahSV (talk) 23:38, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Pinging the admins who commented at the AE: @Vanamonde93, NeilN, Drmies, Bishonen, Black Kite, Alex Shih, BU Rob13, and Masem: SarahSV (talk) 23:50, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Discussions: Sandstein talk, SV talk, AE talk, Sandstein talk again.
I am not curently able to comment in detail but will be able to do so in the morning by UTC. Sandstein 23:47, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
This is an appeal of an AE sanction by somebody who is not the sanctioned editor. Such appeals are not allowed according to ArbCom procedure. Multiple people have told SlimVirgin this on her talk page and on the AE talk page. That she nonetheless submits this appeal here, five minutes after reading MONGO's statement that they do not wish to appeal, is disruptive.
SlimVirgin's conduct at WP:AE, where she reverted my removal of her request to discuss the case from the AE page was likewise disruptive. AE is a forum in which to process enforcement requests and not to discuss past enforcement actions; such discussions belong on talk pages or in other discussion fora, as, again, multiple other editors have told her. Intentional breaches of decorum are sanctionable, to which I made reference. As an administrator, SlimVirgin in particular should know and follow AE procedure. I agree with BU Rob13 below that her conduct in this matter can be read as attempting to bully me into changing an AE decision she does not agree with.
I have addressed SlimVirgin's procedural concerns with respect to the closure on her talk page, and to some extent on my talk page and on the AE talk page. I explained there that I believe that I have followed all rules regarding the conduct of sanctioning administrators as laid down in ArbCom's procedures. I remain available for questions by arbitrators if they desire further clarification in this respect. Because this appeal is out of order, as noted above, I do not intend to comment on the merits of the sanction here, unless requested to by arbitrators. Sandstein 07:00, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I just commented here and am not able due to a horrible migraine to do more today. In summary my linked comment states that I am not planning on submitting a formal request for modification of my topic ban at this time, due to the probability of creating a dramafest and possibly angering some I have deeply and needlessly offended.--MONGO 23:53, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
I do not see SlimVirgin's approach to this matter as bullying as described above by Sandstein. My take is SlimVirgin felt that the discussion was closed down before a consensus was established and the AE request was open less than a day when there was no editing on my part in the topic area, so a rapid closure was unnecessary. In other words, SlimVirgin seems to indicate that by time she noticed the AE request, it was already closed and she was not able to offer an opinion on the matter. The other point that SlimVirgin has pointed out is that the applied remedy was incorrect as I had not been disruptive in the topic space itself, but instead at the AE noticeboard. The original arbcom admonishment I received 2.5 years ago in the American Politics 2 case stated I had added "hostility to the topic area" [60] and I believe Sandstein was considering my comments at the just closed AE request against DHeyward to be a further example of the things I had been admonished for in the American Politics 2 case.--MONGO 08:13, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
This is now essentially an appeal on my part. Hoping this does not lead to excessive drama as I am not up to it and have determined that if the appeal is not successful, I'm taking at least a sabbatical from the English Wikipedia (I never seem to get myself in trouble at Commons so I might try and help there I guess) for the duration of the existing topic ban. Anyway, I saw that long time editing partner DHeyward had been reported to the Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard. I looked over the diffs provided and I felt they were possibly violations but only barely if at all. One in fact struck me as odd in that it was on the last day of his existing 30 day topic ban and I know DHeyward well enough that he's not so stupid he would tempt fate on his last day of an existing topic ban. After I received a well deserved admonishment from the arbitration committee in 2015 I had in essence retired mostly from US political articles, sticking my nose in there only very infrequently and my editing history will testify to that effect. But I have noticed a lot of the same people reporting each other it seemed doing a tit for tat (I felt) at AE with the same names popping up frequently. Seeing some of the comments I lashed out at DHeyward's detractors, both present and not even present at that discussion here. I'll frankly say I am embarrassed by the comment I made there and would go so far as to say it was blockworthy, even a longish block, especially since MrX removed part of it, reminded me to not make personal attacks [61] and I yet restored it [62]. There is no excuse for the comments I made, they were extremely harsh and unnecessary. MrX and I had a sort back and forth and MrX then filed an AE request regarding my comments [63] and Sandstein then removed all my comment from the AE request on DHeyward [64] and then posted he was waiting for me to address the issue [65]. I did not initially respond to the report and in fact bluntly said I would not be responding. Sandstein then stated that he was considering a indefinite topic ban on me [66] from American politics etc. articles. The full discussion lasted about half a day [67] and those commenting ranged from being in agreement with Sandstein's proposal to suggesting that a different resolution should be applied, primarily based on the lack of diffs showing I have been disruptive in the topic space itself. Sandstein apparently did adjust the invoked sanction to a 90 day topic ban rather than the indefinite one he initially suggested. After posting to my talkpage about the sanction he had applied, I resigned. I intend to not edit anywhere until my topic ban is lifted, amended or expires. I have contemplated leaving because I feel I have lost the support of the community overall.
The above are the facts of the case, I was way out of line, I probably deserved a block for making personal attacks and restoring them after MrX had removed part of them, and Sandstein did not completely ignore the input of other administrators or the community.
Things moved rapidly during the AE report MrX had filed and in reflection I feel that while my comments were inexcusable I also felt that the both barrels loaded response by Sandstein, who posted a rather draconian indefinite topic ban plan, the type of ban that is oftentimes rarely amended or lifted, was inaccurate. Furthermore I felt very slighted by his comment in the same paragraph in which Sandstein said I have a long block log for "disruptive conduct". I asked Sandstein about this as I have not been blocked in nearly 10 years and others chimed in that my block log was well in the past. The harsh implied penalty as well as the bringing forth of my old blocks certainly indicated to me that Sandstein may have been angry at me or was working on a reputation I may have. These sorts of comments, posted very early in the discussion, have perhaps the inadvertent effect of setting the tone of the oncoming penalty, a sort of pragmatism that I know was not done in a calculated manner by Sandstein, but does impact how the discussion is likely to go. The rush to judgement should be metered and dispassionate and I will confess that I have found Sandstein to be overly aggressive and at times overly harsh in is application of sanctions. I want to say that I am literally fearful that anyone posting a complaint about me I may not get a fair hearing by Sandstein since he apparently has an entrenched and negative view of my activities. Perhaps this is a preposterous paranoia on my part especially considering I do not think Sandstein has ever previously sanctioned or suggested I be sanctioned. Nevertheless, his comments early on made me conclude I either have a terrible reputation or his opinion of me is very low. Both of these things make me feel like staying around this website is a bad plan for me.
I do have a few ideas if anyone cares to think about them:
1). Hereforth allow AE reports to remain open for 24 hours unless the reported party is doing harm to the project and a near immediate sanction must be implemented. 2). Tailor the sanction to better fit the offense. In my case, a 90-180 day NPA parole would have been better since I had not been seen to be disruptive in the topic area itself. I am opposed to civilty paroles because we do have some cultural/language barriers and one person's blunt speak may be anothers incivility. What I engaged in was beyond incivility, I made personal attacks so there is a clear distinction. I would prefer that my current sanction be changed to a NPA parole, but this isn't really a big deal to me because I have lost most of my desire to contribute. MrX somewhere said he felt my sanction was small considering I had admitted I rarely edit that topic area anymore anyway...he's probably right. 3). Admin working in AE and anywhere should remember that many nonadmins feel genuinely at the mercy of the admin corp. Having once been an admin I can attest to how losing the bit is a very marginalizing experience. I ask admins to understand that we do at times feel threatened and at times powerless and this does impact how we may respond (generally defensively but oftentimes angrily) when we are approached by administrators. Likewise when reminding people to be nice, expect them to not be since no one likes being told what to do. 4). All should only use the noticeboards as a last resort. Even when there may be clear and obvious diffs to provide, we should all try and give each other the benefit of the doubt if at all possible.
Thanks....--MONGO 06:17, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
It is no secret that I disagree with MONGO politically (see my userpage), but I think this topic ban is not helping our encyclopedia. Retired or not, I would like to see this topic ban undone. Sandstein acted in good faith and I understand Sandstein's reasoning, but I think it was a bad decision. Blocking for incivility would've been a good decision. There is no one here (at the time of this timestamp) that I fully agree with. Unfortunately asking people to calm down is usually counterproductive. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 00:09, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
You don't like how the AE report was closed? Well, tough noogies, that's the "discretionary" in "discretionary sanctions". And for the record there was in fact weak consensus for the restriction.
I actually find it hilarious that some editors (well, two, Sarah and Rambling Man) are acting like this is some nefarious breach of norms whereas this is exactly how WP:AE functions and has always functioned. There've been literally dozens if not hundreds of editors who've come through WP:AE who've been sanctioned (or not) with much less consensus than in this case. Again, that's the "discretionary" in "discretionary sanctions". WP:AE has always been like this. This is just clueless in the sense that Sarah apparently just discovered that WP:AE exists and "discretionary sanctions" are a thing. Even though, you know, they've been around for more than half a decade (and lots of admins, including some sitting on the ArbCom right now, have argued till they're blue in the face that they're effective).
You don't like this? Then get rid of WP:AE and discretionary sanctions. Riiiiggghhhhhthttttt....
Otherwise it's gonna look very much like MONGO is being given special treatment - what about all the other editors who got sanctioned with far less consensus over the years? - just cuz he's MONGO.
(Note that this is neither an endorsement nor a criticism of discretionary sanctions) (or MONGO's sanction for that matter)
Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:55, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
@MrX " If, alternatively, Arbcom intended that AE should be a IAR free for all where the loudest and most persistent voices win, then that that would be good to know as well.-" - I think that's called "WP:ANI" and it is my understanding that that's why an ArbCom came up with DS in the first place.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:20, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
@SlimVirgin: - Sarah, it's actually YOUR job to provide diffs to support your claim (the claim: "What can be done about this situation at AE, which seems to have been going on forever, that Sandstein can simply ignore the views of other uninvolved admins?)", not mine. Best I can see you provide nothing, just your own displeasure at how the MONGO report was closed. Sorry, but that's not enough for, well, anything, otherwise there's some AE decisions I'd like to re-litigate myself.
Also, just a general question - for the ArbCom as well - what EXACTLY is being asked for here? What is the clarification being requested? What is the amendment being proposed? There doesn't appear to be anything of the sort. Just a sanction-related version of WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. In the most charitable interpretation this is a thinly disguised appeal on behalf of MONGO in contravention of Wikipedia policy (as I asked elsewhere, what exactly is the difference between an "appeal" of a sanction and a request to "review" a sanction on behalf of someone else?) Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
@Newyorkbrad: @MONGO: - I just want to point out that converting a AP topic ban into a civility parole (isn't making personal attacks *already* prohibited?) is not exactly doing MONGO any favors. With a topic ban, you more or less know what you need to do to not run afoul of it. But changing one's personality, or how it manifests itself in an online space... yeah, that's tricky. I mean, I've seen a few people do it, but generally, no. It just leads to more trouble. Chances are in a few weeks MONGO will say something snide (maybe not even THAT snide) to somebody in a completely different setting, that person will note that MONGO is under this civility parole and then go running to WP:AE.
This is sort of an offer you can't not refuse.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:33, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Given User:MONGO's statement - and the fact that it constitutes an actual appeal - I think the sanctions should be vacated or rescinded or whatever. Per my comment right above, substituting in a civility parole (again, "personal attack parole" makes no sense) is a bad idea.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:32, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I would very much like for the committee to review SlimVirgin's actions and comments over the past 12 hours to determine if they align with the policies and practices of arbitration enforcement, and the spirit of resolving conduct disputes on Wikipedia. Specifically, she has relentlessly hounded Sandstein as evidenced at WP:AE, WT:WT, user talk:Slim Virgin and user talk:Sandstein. She has insisted that Sandstein should pursue a consensus amongst admins, a demand which is in stark opposition to policy and practice. If, alternatively, Arbcom intended that AE should be a IAR free for all where the loudest and most persistent voices win, then that that would be good to know as well.- MrX 00:02, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
(I appreciate MONGO's statement, and I'm sincerely sorry to hear that he has a migraine. That really sucks.)
The wise thing to do when your admin action is (almost universally) condemned is to reopen it and work toward a consensus solution rather than to quote policy and try to shut down debate.I'm not sure if that is intended to be hypothetical, but I assume it is your reflection of what happened in this case. Sandstein's actions were not almost universally condemned. They were not condemned by at least 12 editors: myself, Volunteer Marek, Drmies, BU Rob13, Huldra, Alanscottwalker, Black Kite, SPECIFICO, Mz7, NorthBySouthBaranof and Kingsindian. Alex Shih said he disagreed with the close, but did not indicate that he condemned Sandstein's actions. Masem seems to have reservations, but no outright condemnation.
I’ve recused because of my minor involvement at the AE, but I do want to note my thoughts on this whole issue. First, the Committee should only hear an appeal from MONGO. Appeals on behalf of other editors are not policy-based. Further, some of the behavior surrounding this situation has been very subpar. I don’t know whether ARCA is the right place to take that up, but the threats Sandstein has been subjected to cannot be allowed to continue. Admins should not be bullied out of enforcing arbitration remedies. ~ Rob13Talk 00:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
A few things I want to address:
Sorry, but as the member of a community where we are supposed to have some level of trust in those essentially running the place, these kind of actions (just like the other two instances I mentioned here as well) leave a chilling effect, a bad taste in experienced editors' mouths, and is starting to chase away long time, experienced, and good content contributors. My opinion is something needs to be done about this new trend as well as MONGO's over-the-top sanction and dissing admins like SarahSV. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 00:18, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Sandstein states here, "In the instant case, I did read and take into consideration the opinions of others, even if I did not follow all of them. There being no consensus about the nature of the sanction to impose, the issue of overruling colleagues did not arise."
Regarding the waiting time discussion, I'm going to repeat what I said here: An admin has the authority to levy sanctions on anyone without needing input or a post to the AE board. I wouldn't want to change this. However if a request is posted to the board and another admin disagrees with the first admin's proposal before the first admin takes action then I do think consensus should be necessary at that point. Expanding: Recognizing that this could lead to an impasse, any admin should be able to close the request 36 hours after it was opened with the appropriate explanatory notes. However if there is significant disagreement about sanctions and discussion is exhausted/getting repetitive, consideration should be given whether or not to kick it up to Arbcom. --NeilN talk to me 18:52, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Whether intentional or not Slim Virgin's presentation seems rather unfair and I think that unfairness stems from SV not dealing with the entirety of Sandstein's extensive rationale. So I present that rationale, here:
Taking into consideration the discussion above, we agree that this is actionable conduct, but some admins would prefer a sanction that reflects that there are no complaints with respect to MONGO's article-space editing. As noted above, I'm of the view that a sanction limited to non-articlespace is impractical and does not reflect that Wikipedia editing does not occur in segregated namespaces, but that casting aspersions against others affects all work that the affected editors undertake; for instance, it severely hinders the ability of the involved editors to work together and find consensus on content issues. I am therefore topic-banning MONGO from everything related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. As regards the duration of the sanction, I must take into consideration, on the one hand, that MONGO has been admonished by ArbCom against such conduct and has a long block log, and that their immediate reaction to this request was to blame others and to disclaim responsibility; but, on the other hand, that no blocks are recent, and that MONGO has now apologized for their remarks. Accordingly, I'm imposing the topic ban for a duration of three months. Sandstein 09:25, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Agree or disagree, it extensively addresses why it was done, including what Slim Virgin calls a "category error". And contra Neil, yes it shows he considered others' statements. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
@Newyorkbrad: @DGG:, and to the rest of the Comittee, too. First of all, your burn it down remedy is bizarre, unless you are willing to go whole hog and disband your ctte or resign (after all, if you read the comments of many over the years, your ctte, does not do much, and when it does, it regularly does it wrong) or you can press ahead with the realization that nothing is perfect. I also, don't think sweeping infexible new creeping rules is wise.
My suggestions, 1) every year or six months as a ctte off-wiki audit every AE case for a week(s)/a month, (or have some of our statistcians give you a random sampling technique) after that time publish the draft audit (for structured community comment/your revision) hand out a bunch of 'attagals/boys/etc', and 'no's, this is how that kind should be handled', and overtime you'll have a 'common law' body of precedent, that everyone can look to. And in successive audits, you can refine/correct prior audits.
With cases such as the present one when you have an actual appeal, go ahead and make some rulings, even though as this one is, it's over (Brad I am sure there is a SCOTUS phrase for that) although, when it's over, you should probably be more circumspect, with your eye firmly planning on making future AE 'better', never perfect, but in the context of discussing an actual case issue that arose). Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:26, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
My opinion from the original AE was that MONGO's talk behavior was way out of line, considering past warnings/etc, but understanding from others they edit in AP2 space without any drama to the content of their edits. I do understand the point made by the closing, that it is hard to block talk page behavior and yet expect the editor to continue to participate in the same article space, if the TBAN prevents them from participating in any discussion, which my read now makes me think a TBAN might have been the wrong approach, or at least a shorter standard TBAN. --Masem (t) 00:34, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
This is about process versus common sense. If an AE closes in less than 24 hours, chances are many aren't even aware the AE has been filed. If another or other admins ask that a case be reopened then nothing is lost by extending discussion. Wikipedia has unfortunately given a great deal of power to individual admins in the application of discretionary sanctions and in AEs. In a community of this size, that power can be misused and so must be must be tempered with the openness to listen to fellow admins and editors, and the flexibility to apply sanctions with discrimination knowing that nothing in our policies and guidelines points to rigid consistency. Wikipedia is and will continue to be open to abuse if individual admins cannot adjust their thinking and decisions based on the specifics of a situation. Admins must know that they will not be judged for changing their minds and that flexibility and collaboration will be respected.
And by the way that another admin questions a decision is good and healthy in this community. We don't want or need dictators which is what happens if decision makers are above discussion with those those who may disagree or misunderstand them.(Littleolive oil (talk) 00:35, 7 January 2018 (UTC))
Let me just start off by saying I respect Sandstein immensely for his ability to read consensus at AFD so I am saddened by recent events. However, when SlimVirgin dared to have an issue with your close, your response can be summed up as: "that sucks but procedure says I can". Your close was ill-adviced and caused a shootout among several esteemed editors. Can you honestly stand behind your closure and say the ends justify the means? What have you accomplished or proven because it certainly has not been in the interest of the encyclopedia, regardless of whether "procedure says I can" or not. And I share Littleolive's opinion: SlimVirgin's inquiry is healthy and I wish more admins had the moxy to speak up more often.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:32, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I also object strongly to applying a content area ban to an editor that didn't involve the content. Sandstein closed my appeal and it was the draconian decision and hounding of me that led to his comments. I have an ARCA request below because of how admins working in AE are not communicating properly even after they admit errors in clarity. I am now subject to an AP2 topic ban because AE admins believe I violated a BLP topic ban. I don't think ArbCom intended to create a roulette wheel of sanctions but that is how it is operated. I would like to know how I earned an AP2 topic ban for supposedely violating a BLP topic ban with an edit that still exists. AE has become Kafka's attic. --DHeyward (talk) 02:52, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
And to be perfectly clear, MONGO's comments were in a BLP enforcement AE discussion, not an AP2 discussion. An AP2 restriction is a non-sequitur solution that appears to be from a motivation unencumbered by the goals of the project. SlimVirgin is correct and the TBAN should be undone..
The rule about appeals being made by the sanctioned editor only should not be used to allow administrators taking enforcement actions at AE from evading proper scrutiny of their actions by the community. Sandstein does good work at AE but his aggressive enforcement focused on the letter of the law followed by (IMO) hiding behind the process to avoid communicating with colleagues even when it is clear that a mounting consensus is against his decision has repeatedly caused problems. Indeed, I remind the committee of the following remedy from May 2011: "Sandstein is advised to take care to communicate more effectively in future arbitration enforcement actions." (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration Enforcement sanction handling#Sandstein advised). This issue could have been resolved by proper communication between Sandstein and other users, to see if his action was supported by broader community opinion. AE actions can be taken without first establishing consensus, but they cannot be allowed to stand if consensus is clearly against them. Likewise, in my opinion it is impermissible for an admin to review an AE thread, identify that a consensus is already against their proposed course of action, and take it anyway. WJBscribe (talk) 12:53, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
This dramafest demonstrates once again our collective inability to deal with respected contributors who are occasionally very unpleasant. These folks are at fault for carrying on in a "this is the way I am: take it or leave it" attitude. And the community is at fault for whacking them with impossible and/or disproportionate sanctions.
I mention this, first, to explain my position at AE. I am unsure whether MONGO deserved a tban. His comments were terrible: but I've received far worse from editors against whom sanctions weren't even considered. Just see my RFA. But if MONGO is to receive a tban, it should be a clearly defined one, not subject to endless further drama. In that respect, at least, I find Sandstein's action appropriate.
But (and this is the second reason for my commentary above) Sandstein is certainly aware of the drama that ensues from sanctioning seasoned content contributors. For that reason, if none else, he should have made an effort to obtain broader admin support. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. The sole purpose of AE is to allow us to get on with building an encyclopedia: and therefore, extra care with respect to certain editors is entirely justifiable.
I have great respect for Sandstein. But it was pointed out to him that he created more drama than he solved, and he responded by saying he followed the rules. This is concerning, and in my view requires examination by ARBCOM. Furthermore, the admin corps at AE clearly failed to deal with the situation in a drama-reducing manner: perhaps ARBCOM can do better. Vanamonde (talk) 14:21, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
It is a truth (that should be) universally acknowledged, that a single admin in search of sanctions should always make a good faith attempt to find and abide by consensus. In this instance, Sandstein did not do that. Instead, he went against consensus in sanctioning MONGO, and gave a rather unfortunate reason for doing so My experience is that is almost not possible to impose AE sanctions against long-term community members without a substantial minority, or even a majority, of other long-term community members disagreeing with it for one reason or another, a reason which sort of indicates that he believes he is better positioned to make unbiased judgements than other admins (always a dangerous sign in anyone with power). He should also not have reverted SlimVirgin when she made additional comments on the closed AE report, but rather have waited for someone else to do so. In both cases, though Sandstein admittedly followed the letter of policy on admin action, he clearly did not follow its spirit. The wise thing to do when your admin action is (almost universallywidely) condemned is to reopen it and work toward a consensus solution rather than to quote policy and try to shut down debate. We're seeing the unfortunate consequences of when an admin chooses the shutting down option over the consensus seeking one.
Sandstein does good work at AE, it is not easy to make judgement after judgement against editors and I respect that. I also think that the action he took against MONGO was clearer than some of the suggestions that were being made on AE. But it is important that he realize that not attempting to seek consensus and then attempting to shut down debate on his actions is not the wiki way and that viewing yourself as a bulwark against a perception that long term content editors get special treatment from admins is probably neither constructive nor accurate. --regentspark (comment) 15:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
A few years ago someone described Sandstein's actions at AE as being those of a "judge, jury and executioner" (admittedly, it was said by someone who has not had a great track record here). This is what happens when that position is taken. It's very unfortunate and, I think, rather unnecessary. I'm sure that they acted in good faith but when numerous other long-standing contributors, including admins, query an action then surely discretion is the better part of valour? Instead of continuing to suggest that it was done to protect the project and is non-negotiable, open it up for review. FWIW, I have had practically no interaction with MONGO or with the subject area - it just looks like a bad decision to me. - Sitush (talk) 15:58, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Just to note that the committee dealt with very similar issues in this case in 2015. That decision included Although administrators do not need explicit consensus to enforce arbitration decisions and can always act unilaterally, when the case is not clear-cut they are encouraged, before acting, to seek input from their colleagues at arbitration enforcement. In addition, when a consensus of uninvolved administrators is emerging in a discussion, administrators willing to overrule their colleagues should act with caution and must explain their reasons on request. Administrators overruling their colleagues without good cause may be directed to refrain from further participation in arbitration enforcement
and was passed 10-0.
Even with that in mind, I think it is stretching things to say that Sandstein acted against an emerging consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE. There was general agreement of uninvolved admins at AE that MONGO's comments were sanction-worthy; the debate, by and large, was over what, not if.
I sympathise with those who tried to craft a narrower sanction that fit the offence better, but the background of DHeyward's narrow tban should be kept in mind; there have been a number of voices in that context arguing that admins should impose bans from all of AP2 or do nothing, because anything narrower causes trouble. Sandstein's action was well within admin discretion and a reasonable one given the discussion at AE. GoldenRing (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
At the initial case I said I wasn't sure what to do, but I certainly wasn't disagreeing with Sandstein and I don't disagree with his close. I also don't see how his close is "universally" or even "widely" condemned. Such decisions are always made in a heated environment (by definition) and they aren't always easy to make; as far as I'm concerned Sandstein did nothing wrong, and made a judgment call based on the discussion and others' opinions that they handled procedurally correctly (he may remember that he overturned a procedurally incorrect but ethically correct block I placed for formal reasons). That this shouldn't be brought by someone who isn't MONGO is pretty much a fact according to our policies, but that's not the biggest deal to me; a bigger deal for me is that for all intents and purposes this just makes matters even worse, complicating a possible future appeal by MONGO, which I hope is in the works. Drmies (talk) 17:57, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
While politically I fall on the polar opposite side to MONGO and greatly admire VM, I have looked up to MONGO's article work for over ten years (and have said before that his FACs are what first motivated me stop editing as an IP and open an account) and see a sometimes gruff talk page style that *does not* spill over into POV main space article contributions. I also don't think Sandstein did anything wrong per say, just a little quickly, but it seems a very harsh penalty given the length of service and the overwhelming positive contribution the man has made to this website. MONGO is informed, and given the current political climate and polarisation, its increasing difficult to keeps ones cool. Cutting him at the knee with a broad topic ban seems extremely harsh, when he's generally an amenable sort of guy and some limited restrictions on talk page conduct might better serve.
On the initial close; if consensus often does not ultimately inform the decision, what is the point of a board inviting discussion. Its it just a procedural tick the box? Ceoil (talk) 18:52, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
As others before me have pointed out, Sandstein was definitely allowed to take this arbitration enforcement action unilaterally (that is, without consideration for the opinions of other administrators) under the procedures set forth at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions (though admins should take heed of the principle cited in GoldenRing's statement). Under the same set of procedures, any appeal – defined at the top of the page as including any request for the reconsideration, reduction, or removal of a sanction
– must be brought by the editor who is under sanction, in this case MONGO (see WP:AC/DS#Appeals by sanctioned editors). If the sanctioned editor chooses not to file a formal appeal, then the process forbids any request for reconsideration on the issue made by your average Joe. The unfortunate happenstance here is that the process precludes all administrator peer review in the event that the sanctioned editor chooses not to file a formal appeal, regardless of whether the sanctioned editor has otherwise expressed their disagreement to the sanction. Only when the sanctioned editor decides to appeal can any discussion of a reconsideration, reduction, or removal of a sanction
happen.
With this in mind, I think the committee should procedurally endorse Sanstein's action without prejudice to the consideration of a future appeal by MONGO. As I noted in the original AE discussion, however, there is something about the "precluding all admin peer review" that strikes me as rather un-Wikipedia, and I would appreciate if the committee can explicitly clarify that, yes, this is what was originally intended when the process was designed. Mz7 (talk) 19:54, 7 January 2018 (UTC), last modified 19:59, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I have no opinion on MONGO's actions/statements personally, and am not involved in that topic area. "This is a request about AE and Sandstein, not about a particular case." I agree that a shut-down that fast, with lengthy sanctions, for not making Sandstein happy at AE, rather than for disruption in the content area at issue, is doubly inappropriate; it's insufficient time for a proper examination, and whether Sandstein is pleased with the kowtowing in his royal court is irrelevant. But this stuff is habitual with him, for years.
I object in the strongest possible terms to this "an ARCA cannot be brought on behalf of someone else" nonsense, because it absolutely is not true. An ARCA can be opened by anyone, to:
Not every ARCA that involves someone else is an "appeal" of their sanction (repeat: "This is a request about AE and Sandstein, not about a particular case"), so the ArbCom rule about appeals is not some huge, smothering gag that can be duct-taped over all attempts to examine administrative AE actions in any instance in which one isn't a directly aggrieved party. Having serious concerns about procedure being followed, about vague or capricious sanctions being used, about a general sense that AE has become a minefield where one is more likely to be punished for offending just the wrong person than to have the substance of an issue examined, are – each and severably – sufficient reason for anyone to use ARCA.
A really obvious precedent – about actions by Sandstein, again – is the ARCA opened by NE Ent on behalf of me and three other editors, over similar "Judge Dredd admin" activities at ARCA – a request which was accepted and acted upon by ArbCom. Permalink to the whole thing here. This is worth reviewing in detail, including the background (Sandstein made unsupportable claims of wrongdoing against me and all these other parties, and refused to even look at evidence he was wrong, even after other admins told him he was (e.g. [68]); we then got a year-long appeal runaround (see, [69] and [70], etc.), until NE Ent, who at that time understood process better than we did, got it resolved for us.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 20:51, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Also concur with isaacl's main thrust; "neither the 'Arbitration enforcement' nor 'Arbitration enforcement 2' case made much progress on ... safeguards against arbitrary enforcement decisions" [in the undesirable sense of "arbitrary"] is clearly true. Neitehr did the WP:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions/2013 review, as I cover at #Statement by SMcCandlish on DS in the ARCA above this one, and in more detail here. It's no accident that an increasing number of ARCAs involve such matters; there are real problems here, possibly worsening. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 23:53, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Carrite's "the fact that Mongo was AE topic-banned for content or behavior not made in mainspace" [or, rather, at the locus of the dispute – some DS have been applied to internal topics, as at WP:ARBATC]] gets to the heart of various disputes about AE and DS and Sandstein in particular; the NE_Ent-filed ARCA I highlight above was all about another case of Sandstein using DS against people for making "personalized" comments in AE itself, when by definition a noticeboard about user behavior is automatically "personalized"; it's exactly like charging someone with defamation during a court case because they brought the case against someone and it necessarily made allegations. It's amazing to me that someone with a real-world legal background can't see the problem with this. But this is just one of many issues with DS and AE as presently deployed.
Sandstein (in multiple ARCAs) and Kingsindian (in the one after this one) argue that the confusing situation that an AE decision can, supposedly, be appealed to ArbCom (ARCA), to AN, or to AE should be used as an excuse to shut down appeals. Most systems of appeal are a chain of escalating appeals, so this is not going to match user expectations. And ArbCom is already clear that one should appeal first to the sanction-issuing admin, yet this does not prevent an appeal after that to ArbCom. Furthermore, it's a large part of ArbCom's job to review administrative decisions, be they individual or collective. It's the only place this can be done in a binding manner, so it's completely illogical that a dismissive or "back up other admins at all costs" pseudo-review by AN or by AE itself cannot be reviewed further by ArbCom. The ARCA I mention above, opened by NE Ent for others, was exactly such a request – and ArbCom had no trouble accepting it, and bringing it to a satisfactory resolution, which got two editors to come back, me among them. In point of fact, AN refused to actually come to a decision in that case, and claimed that only ArbCom could do it. So, the idea that the "use AN or AE or ArbCom" thing is actually a standardized practice with established norms is completely false. Even AN admins don't agree that AN (or its ANI subpage) is an appropriate appeal venue for anything AE does. And AE can't sanely be viewed as a final appeal avenue for its own decisions; that's a conflict of interest and the fox guarding the henhouse. On this side matter, the clarification to make is that AE sanctions should be appealed directly to the issuing admin, then if necessary to ARCA, the end.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 23:53, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
@My very best wishes: The fact that people were citing WP:DIVA as a besmirching and dismissing weapon is why that page was MfDed and radically rewritten has WP:HIGHMAINT several years ago. The page we have now is worth perusing; leaving Wikipedia because one feels maligned and abused is not WP:PRAM trantrum-throwing or devious WP:GAMING, as described therein. It's an understandable human reaction to get kicked around. See also departure by Tony1 recently, for even more egregious reasons. People who leave on such a basis are generally not scheming and are pretty certain they are not coming back. If they do, it can sometimes take years to come to that decision. Please do not belittle others' senses of justice and honor; it's in the same class as spiritual and other cultural differences, and going there is never going to be productive. This also speaks a bit to comments by TonyBallioni NE Ent earlier, like proposing to punitively block people for announcing they're leaving after being sanctioned. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 10:16, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Self-correction: The block idea was NE Ent's, not TonyBallioni's; sorry, I misremembered! — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 10:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Sandstein wikilawyered against resolution for the entire year that the above drama dragged out. See also his process-above-all avoidance of resolution on this very page right now (search for "de novo" in the ARCA above, and "I think that this appeal should be rejected on procedural grounds" in this one, below). His approach has not changed in the slightest in 5+ years, despite stern criticism from multiple Arbitrators about it.
One of the sitting Arbs at the time, Salvio giuliano, wrote in NE Ent's ARCA: "@Sandstein: I have probably already told you this, but I think that your approach to WP:AE is overly formalistic and bureaucratic and, speaking personally, I consider this a problem. This case is a good example of your approach", and focused on Sandstein's reliance on wikilawyering and dubious interpretations of procedure to skirt resolution and examination. Sandstein's response to this criticism was "if you think that my work at WP:AE does more harm than good, I'm happy to quit it if you would like me to. I'm not interested in helping out where I'm not welcome to, and I really have no time for all of this." (This does not comport very well with WP:ADMINACCT). Not the first time this has come up. I'll just link to Jayen466 (Andreas) quoting all the Salient details, from two Arbs, after Sandstein said he'd quit AE "duty" if Arbs wanted him to: [71]. So, why hasn't he?
I could make a broader and very detailed case for why he should do so, including difficulty separating his personal opinions/feelings from administrative matters that are brought to AE, and a seeming inability to ever concede a mistake, but I'm skeptical this is a good thread for such a diff-pile, given the narrowness of this ARCA and it not being an RfArb. I'll close with a quote [72] from Tony1 dating to the July 2013 AN request: "I've seen Sandstein's knee-jerk, almost random punishments result in the departure of three long-standing, hard-working, talent[ed], trustworthy editors ... And the whole WMF movement is in the midst of an editor-retention crisis. Get it?
" Sandstein's response to this was, in the same breath as admitting his own lack of empathy, to mock his victims as "throwing a screaming fit and rage-quitting Wikipedia" [73], plus further snide, character-assassinating aspersions of being inveterate, incompetent troublemakers [74], [75]. This is not the only such series of incidents [76].
The passage of time (and my cowed avoidance of him for several years) was giving me the wishful-thinking illusion that maybe this was all just something Sandstein had learned and grown past, but that's clearly not the case after all. If someone keeps throwing the banhammer around like a fun toy, it's time to take that dangerous weapon away.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 21:39, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
There are certain rules established by Arbcom, and they must be respected. One may agree or disagree with closing by Sandstein (I suggested something different on AE), but he obviously acted by the rules and in the limits of his discretion in this case. If MONGO disagree, he must talk with the closing administrator and submit an appeal to AE. This is by the rules. Not submitting an appeal can mean one of three things: (a) MONGO agree with closing by Sandstein, (b) he does not care, or (c) he does not want to act by the rules. In either case, bringing this complaint, rather than a request for amendment does not help to resolve anything because the initiative must belong to MONGO. My very best wishes (talk) 23:04, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
The tension between arbitration enforcement actions being taken on the initiative of an individual administrator versus a consensus discussion at the enforcement noticeboard was the key issue underlying Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration enforcement, which produced the following statement that is incorporated in the discretionary sanctions instructions: In addition, when a consensus of uninvolved administrators is emerging in a discussion, administrators willing to overrule their colleagues should act with caution and must explain their reasons on request.
The case also stated Administrators wishing to dismiss an enforcement request are reminded that they should act cautiously and be especially mindful that their actions do not give the impression that they are second-guessing the Arbitration Committee or obstructing the enforcement of their decisions.
Trying to achieve the goal of discretionary sanctions—to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment for even our most contentious articles
—while still having safeguards against arbitrary enforcement decisions is a difficult task (neither
the "Arbitration enforcement" nor "Arbitration enforcement 2" case made much progress on this front). Perhaps some sort of circuit-breaker rules can be defined: if certain triggering events occur, such as an arbitrator requesting that a consensus discussion be held at the enforcement noticeboard, then administrators must reach a consensus decision before enacting any sanctions. If possible, the circuit-breaker rules should be based on objective standards that track the emergence of the issue as being contentious, so that administrators are not tempted to rush to judgment solely to avoid tripping a circuit-breaker. Unfortunately, I don't have any good ideas as of yet on what rules would be useful.
Another possibility would be to have the reverse: necessary conditions for an administrator to take individual action. If these conditions are not in place, then an administrator must first announce their planned action at the enforcement noticeboard and wait for a set period of time before enacting it. isaacl (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
@Euryalus:, I disagree with a mandatory 24-hour waiting period after an enforcement request is filed before action is taken. I echo what Sandstein said and what I said above: this can precipitate hasty action by administrators in order to avoid the clock and consensus discussion. I think a waiting period needs to have some triggering conditions.
As I discussed in the "Arbitration enforcement" case, discretionary sanctions in its current form give broad authority to administrators to use their judgment in deciding the best course of action. If the arbitration committee wishes to require a mandatory discussion period, then it should revisit the process and consider moving to a "notice-and-action" model, where a request for enforcement must be raised for all issues. isaacl (talk) 17:23, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
As I discussed during the "Arbitration enforcement" case, I feel there is a danger in having a mandatory waiting period that applies only to filed requests, as this encourages people to file quickly in order to trigger the waiting period. The process should foster collaborative discussion first, rather than provide incentives for quick filings. isaacl (talk) 03:03, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Writing here instead as I have commented at the original AE. MrX is correct that although I have disagreed with close, but I have nothing further to add as many have pointed out that it was procedurally correct. I am still hoping the decision can be reconsidered because, as the subsequent turmoil suggests, it does not represent the best interest of the project. I wholeheartedly endorse Newyorkbrad's proposal below. Alex Shih (talk) 04:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I don't believe Sandstein is temperamentally suited for AE. If there is a place for a no confidence vote on that, I make it here. I also don't like the fact that Mongo was AE topic-banned for content or behavior not made in mainspace. I probably agree with that guy about zero politically, but fair is fair and dirty is dirty... That topic ban is for the abuse of mainspace, not a handy "put into jail free" card. Finally, I wish the political warriors would get the hell out of contemporary political biography. That might be wishing for the unachievable, but I like to think that conservatives and lefties alike can check the politics at the door and behave like NPOV-respecting Wikipedians. I don't know if Mongo qualifies as such a content warrior, but there unquestionably is a lot of political gamesmanship going on and there needs to be a topic-ban slaughter of a bunch of the gamers, in my opinion. Carrite (talk) 05:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I think that Sandstein's topic ban was good at the time: I don't think any of the alternatives would have been useful, but at the same time, seeing MONGO's appeal above, I would support it if it was lifted entirely and replaced with a strong warning about repeating similar actions. I oppose what MONGO seems to be suggesting as an NPA ban: those don't work, especially not with popular editors. If it was ever enforced, we'd wind up right back here again. A warning accomplishes the same thing, and doesn't add an additional layer of bureaucracy. Also, FWIW, as one of the editors who was subject to the actions in question, I personally didn't mind. I like MONGO, and I knew he was defending a friend. I see his point of view there, even if I obviously ended up disagreeing with it: people of good will can end up disagreeing and even calling eachother names, and it be fine, though the latter shouldn't happen frequently. I can only speak for myself in that regard, but I thought it might be worth something. Also, I think this appeal would be easier to handle at AE now that MONGO is actually appealing it, though that is of course up to him. It would also likely have a quicker resolution there. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I support granting the following relief to MONGO: Lifting the sanction entirely, without replacing it with another sanction. Given MONGO's statement above, which ticks all my boxes for a mea culpa and promise not to repeat, I believe it serves no further purpose and lifting it will boost general editor morale in this sector. MONGO's statement strikes me as heartfelt, genuine, thoughtful, and introspective. Moreover, the statement makes it clear that MONGO was affected by the odd circumstances of the situation, particularly the ultrafast pacing of AE (perhaps a special case of the meatball:ForestFire or meatball:AngryCloud). I think that's forgivable.
As to the other aspects of MONGO's statement, I think we should look at improving the AE/DS process generally. I believe MONGO's suggestion of a minimum 24-hour window is probably right-minded. Though I believe there should be the option for reviewing admins to take preliminary action to preserve a status quo, there should still probably be a minimum 24-hour window before that preliminary action becomes a final decision that has to go through the appeals process. 07:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I join SMcCandlish, Carrite, and others expressing concern with Sandstein's overall approach to AE. "Overly formalistic and bureaucratic" is a good way to put it. Even in this latest episode, after inquiries and concerns from admins and editors alike, Sandstein is convinced he has done the right thing. Also see here for another example of Sandstein's approach. That episode was kicked off by a rapid fire, controversial AE action by Sandstein and subsequent refusal to discuss with others. Sound familiar? Admins active at AE should be a little more open to feedback about their actions. That example, coupled with SMcCandlish's above seem to show that Sandstein's activity at AE sometimes causes more disruption than benefit. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:52, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I would like to add to the list by My very best wishes (talk · contribs): d) Mongo might not have known what the rules were, especially if those rules are not written down or if the written version is out of date; e) Mongo might have decided that he did not want to make a fuss and would wait until the sanction expired or until everyone calmed down/could look at the issue with fresh eyes. Any policy, written or otherwise, that places "If you don't complain or don't complain in the exact right way, then you are confessing and agreeing that you deserve to be punished" will only make trouble for Wikipedia by preventing people from getting punishments lifted, by saddling admins with appeals by editors who would have been willing to wait out their sanctions and by generally rendering the atmosphere more toxic. Think about it. You're an admin. You just gave an editor a sanction that they don't think they deserve but they're willing to shut up and edit somewhere else for three months. Then that editor finds out "If you don't appeal, we'll assume you agree that you're a dirty troublemaker." Well now they have to appeal and you the admin have to be on the receiving end. Appealing is not disruption, but it is work for everyone involved. There's a flip side to this. I'd like everyone to try this on for size: "Sandstein did not violate any policies. Perhaps we should modify or revoke the sanction anyway." Lifting a sanction on Mongo does not require imposing one on Sandstein. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:33, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Condolences on the new members on election to the Ninth Circle of Hell Arbcom.
The rigidity of WP:AC/DS and the Wikipedia:Ignore all rules pillar have not, do not, and will never co-exist very well. (Which is, of course, what NYB just said in Bradspeak). Therefore, per WP:Policy fallacy, while arbcom 18 is certainly empowered to rewrite AC/DS wording, it's really not going to help.
Stepping back to actual proximate causes, what should have been a simple appeal / rewording -- because, yes, banning an editor from mainspace due to poor wikipedia space behavior doesn't actual make sense -- blew up into this drama fest because of MONGO just having to "Retire" [77] (see WP:OWB#40).
What ya'll really ought to -- but probably won't: although it's direct and simple and would probably work, it doesn't fit some "fairness / sympathy" vibe that mucks up WP dispute resolution -- is add this DS: Any editor who posts a RETIRED template during a dispute maybe site banned for three[1] days by any administrator.[2] Such a siteban may only appealed to the arbitration committee via email[3].
Wikipedia would be better served if the involved admins would, as hard as it is in the heat of the moment, to dial down the rhetoric while disagreeing.
Footnotes
Speaking on procedure rather than merits: I'm seeing a lot of discussion about "consensus" but it is my understanding that AE isn't about consensus at all, and in fact, any closing or action taken by any admin is theirs alone: they own it. My understanding is that any admin may close at any time, with or without sanction, and the close itself is considered an admin action (I forget the Arb case, but yes, you concluded that). And that AE isn't even required at all, that an admin can act outside of AE just as he would within the walls of that board. It is a nice sounding board for admin to hear the opinions of other admin and non-admin alike, but all *actions* are considered unilateral, whether or not others agreed, so there is no requirement to consider other opinions or gain consensus. You would have to change policy if you wanted it to become a consensus board. This complaint seems completely out of process and unsupported by policy. WP:AE or WP:AN are the normal channels to appeal, and should be filed by the sanctioned party. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
In response to SlimVirgin asking to post examples of admins (other than Sandstein) who overrule the consensus of uninvolved admins at AE.
, I can give this example (pointed to me by Tarc) by current Arb Callanecc. I don't know whether the sanction was merited or not, but what I see in that request is that any admin can use their judgement to impose sanctions and need not wait for a consensus at AE. As far as I know, this is how AE has functioned always.
Aside from this explicit example, one should also keep in mind that AE sanctions need not involve any request at all: any admin can act unilaterally. If other admins don't get a chance to weigh in, how can one determine consensus? Many of Coffee's recent blocks didn't follow an AE request. One can also recall the old Eric Corbett drama, where admins (including Arbs) engaged in this practice. This is how AE has always worked. If you want to change how AE works, do it properly, don't engage in special pleading. I will support people in the former endeavour. SMcCandlish's points are also interesting, though I haven't considered them in detail. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 04:32, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
I agree with SMcCandlish, Mr Ernie, Carrite and everyone else who has expressed concern with Sandstein's conduct. Sure, he may technically be empowered to hand out lengthy sanctions unilaterally and without any regard for the opinions of his peers, but that doesn't make it a good idea. As noted above, this is not the first time he has created a dramafest with his over-the-top application of sanctions. Eventually, the community is going to get fed up... maybe sooner than later. Lepricavark (talk) 20:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
This thread was brought to my attention. I see that Sandstein is still being Sandstein and Arbcom are still being Arbcom by not bringing his actions under proper control. This is the combination that made me leave WP for some years ago. Unless Arbcom shows some sort of ability to control admins who lack empathy and whose first reaction to anyone who points out that they have done wrong is to look at what sanctions they can bring against the critic, then I have no intention of returning to Wikipedia and risking another outbreak of Sandsteinism against me or similar behaviour from other toxic admins. And this extends to not SOFIXITing any of the numerous errors I have spotted when browsing WP. --Peter cohen (talk) 20:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Just to point out something in common here with my experience, My case was another one in which Sandstein threatened me with sanctions under an area whose articles I have never edited. I just pointed out that he was misguided about some matters of fact to do with the sanctions he was applying to one or two others and his immediate reaction was to attack me with his Admin powers. Here is another instance where his first reaction was to try to avoid [[WP:ADMINACCT] by seeking sanctions against SV and using that as a reason to close this discussion.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:43, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
I just saw this matter referenced on SlimVirgin's talk page. Am not acquainted with Mongo and I don't recall ever encountering him.
In this discussion I find myself in total agreement with editors with whom I rarely agree (Carrite comes to mind). It is simply wrong and deeply unfair for an administrator to issue a sweeping topic ban against an editor on the basis of comments made outside of mainspace. SlimVirgin's points are well-taken. There is nothing that bothers me more than losing good contributors on the basis of unfair or arbitrary administrator actions. I am glad that Mongo is appealing and hope that this matter is satisfactorily resolved. Coretheapple (talk) 13:30, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
If I had been aware of this sooner, I would have posted here much earlier. This is my statement and is basically a copy-paste of what I said several days ago on TRM's talk page (with some fluff removed): Based on the closing sanction placed against MONGO I expected to see some AP2 related evidence of either disruptive editing or disruption on article talk pages. Instead I find that he's received a TBAN from AP2 as a remedy against personal attacks - and they were egregious personal attacks - at WP:AE, User talk:Mr X, and WP:AN. Given that sanctions should be preventative and not punitive, I think that the failure to meaningfully address the issues presented and the slapping of a TBAN that does not prevent the issues, but, does prevent any constructive editing to a topic area unrelated (strictly speaking) to the conduct is ... appalling. Nothing, except an impending future block, prevents MONGO from repeating those exact same comments in any place that isn't covered by AP2. This is, quite obviously, meant to punish MONGO for their comments and not prevent them from making similar comments in the future. I too echo SV's sentiment: what can be done? first to prevent this sort of renegade punitive sanctions in the future and second how do we address the renegade actions of admins who impose such sanctions. Thank you for your time, Mr rnddude (talk) 14:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm pleased to see that we have a reasonable outcome at this point. Nevertheless this request for clarification has not clarified the underlying problem, that the mechanism of AE is unbalanced. No matter how many admins review the issue and conclude that no action is necessary, or a warning is sufficient, it only takes one admin to decide that excessively punitive sanctions are justified for them to be applied. And unfortunately we have at least one admin who is not capable of taking a nuanced view, but can only follow unbendingly what they perceive policy to be. With normal sanctions there are checks and balances for that – other admins may reverse the first decision or reduce its severity on their judgement, but AE has removed those checks, allowing unfettered use of admin powers. This would be ameliorated if there were a functional mechanism for questioning AE decisions, but when an admin refuses point-blank to listen to criticism of their actions, and even hides behind a rigid interpretation of policy preventing anyone but the recipient of the sanctions from appealing those sanctions, we find ourselves without recourse. Kudos to Sarah for making an IAR appeal, and to the Arbs for entertaining it. It was the right thing™ to do. Now, I request that the Arbs carefully consider whether they want this IAR mechanism as the only alternative to an unfairly sanctioned editor – who is likely already too pissed-off to want to re-engage – making an appeal themselves. You need to fix the problem: you could vet the admins whom you allow to work at AE; or create a mechanism that ensures that other admins' views have to be taken into account in determining any AE action; or create usable channel for review of AE decisions. This isn't the first time this issue has arisen and it won't be the last unless you act. The present situation is untenable, and if left unaddressed will surely recur. --RexxS (talk) 14:28, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Many people have already stated my opinion, so I will just be brief. I think what is needed is a total redoing of the AE space. Perhaps a working group of several members can start the process to make it a more fair and equitable place for adjudication. It's not working the way it is now, so we need to try something else. (On a side note, I do think we should also bring back RFC/U, which would IMO cut down on AN/I requests.) Sir Joseph (talk) 15:48, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
I made some hasty comments (not my first as I do write passionately at times) that were highly insulting to a number of editors. I was wrong to make so many deep insults and I do need to remind myself that we all should try and pretend we are sitting in the same room together, maybe we have vastly divergent opinions, maybe we can find commonality, but we all and especially me need to be a whole lot nicer to each other.
[m]y comments [were] here at AE where I will gladly impose a self exile.
”Administrators do not need explicit consensus to enforce arbitration decisions and can always act unilaterally. However, when the case is not clear-cut they are-- Euryalus (talk) 13:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC)encouragedreasonably expected, before acting, to seek input from their colleagues at arbitration enforcement.”
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Anythingyouwant at 23:01, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Regarding the article edit, I don't recall that any admins in this case disputed that I was correcting an extremely obvious BLP violation; I also don't recall any of the admins disputing that the BLP violation was biased (3RRNO exempts "Removing violations of the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy that contain libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material"). Based on this AE proceeding, I gather that correcting even the most obviously biased BLP violation will not be exempt from sanctions unless the violation is simultaneously very extreme (like replacing Trump's image with that of a chimpanzee), and I promise to infer this from 3RRNO in the future, though I urge that 3RRNO be edited to actually say so. Please note: I took this to the article talk page after citing "WP:BLP" in an article edit summary only once, so it’s obvious I wasn’t jamming the material back in repetitively.
Regarding the comment at my user talk page, I have always known that user talk comments can be blockable if they are nasty or irrelevant enough, but I don't recall getting any civility warning in the past regarding comments at my user talk. Once I realized that my user talk might arguably be subject to the Trump-page sanctions or the post-1932 sanctions (i.e. more than usual civility restrictions) I deleted this relatively mild comment,[83] and told NeilN I had deleted it.[84]
@User:MelanieN, during the January AE proceeding, you said “Anything, I might well have done the move in two edits. But my edit summaries would have said that was what I would [sic] doing: ‘deleting section preparatory to a move’, ‘moving’.”[88] Thus, regardless of what Melanie finds it convenient to say now, she only objected then to my edit summaries. Whether I moved the material in one edit or a series of two consecutive edits (which was easier), I was entirely entitled to move the newly-added material, and entirely reasonable in thinking that removed or moved material could not be restored to its original placement without consensus per the discretionary sanctions. The proceeding in January at AE was incredibly nasty and punitive, including when I was blocked for merely correcting a small typographical error in my own comment at AE (the block was overturned as you can see in my block log). Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:32, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
@User:My very best wishes, usually I don’t come to ArbCom, because it’s not such an onerous penalty, and anyway (frankly) I don’t have huge confidence in ArbCom. But, as Neil said here at this page, this is “[p]robably the best place for this one as WP:AE would largely be a rehash and WP:AN would likely become a mess.” Anyway, where are your best wishes for me??? Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:25, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
@User:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris, please don’t delete comments by other editors.[90] Thanks. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:16, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
@Arbitrators, User:Mastcell says here at this page, "Anythingyouwant is lying. He's lying. To you." I would appreciate an opportunity to respond carefully to that charge, which is very false, and which relates to events of January 2018. I have to get some sleep now, but hope you will give me time tomorrow to briefly prove Mastcell wrong. As for the pre-2018 events that Mastcell cites (none of which Neil brought up), I'm not sure that ArbCom is interested or willing to hear anything I have to say about them; Mastcell omits a great deal, just like Neil has declined to address or acknowledge here any facts that might not work in his favor. So, unless ArbCom indicates willingness for me to address pre-2018 events (including when I have successfully invoked the BLP exemption, and also Mastcell's own involvement in some of the matters he has mentioned), I won't. But I do plan to address Mastcell's false accusation that I am a liar, which I find extremely offensive, and which relates to events of January this year. That accusation by Mastcell is apparently designed to inflate a relatively tame comment at my user talk page (Neil explicitly says he is not disputing the BLP exemption) into an indefinite and broad topic ban. I almost hope that ArbCom endorses Neil's indefinite topic ban, so that my Wikipedia nightmare will be over. For now, I must sleep. Then I will disprove Mastcell's accusation, which I find very typical of him. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:14, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
MastCell is wrong. Here is a link to that January proceeding. Unlike MastCell, I will describe this matter chronologically. MastCell is correct that MelanieN called my two articleedits “a ‘cute trick’, a two-part move based on attempts to game the DS sanctions.” She did so at 01:21, 23 January 2018.[92] I then responded to MelanieN:
Coffee said "I fully understand using the two edits to have to copy then paste", but you attribute the two separate edits to conniving and scheming on my part. Would you have done it in one edit or two? Obviously, it was much easier to do in two edits. Please, I have no problem considering them as one single edit for purposes of retrospective analysis, in which case my same rationale justified the edit summary: I was reverting the insertion of this new material by moving it, given that "An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert." Please, a week-long ban for a mere connotation via edit summary? I can't believe you seriously think that's appropriate. Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:51, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Then Melanie answered:
Anything, I might well have done the move in two edits. But my edit summaries would have said that was what I would doing: "deleting section preparatory to a move", “moving”. I would not have claimed that the first one was challenging content by reverting it, as you did. As a matter of fact, in discussion at your talk page you doubled down on that claim, insisting to me that your “main objective was to remove disputed material”,[11] because it was “riddled” with “biased POV-pushing” that you would rather have removed from the article.[12] One minute later you restored that horribly biased section back into the article, while proclaiming that nobody else could restore it because … well, because one minute earlier you had challenged the content as so biased and POV that it shouldn’t be in the article. --MelanieN (talk) 04:14, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Yesterday, here at this page, I said, “User:MelanieN, for example, acknowledged that those two edits were fully permissible, putting side the edit summaries.” MastCell says this last statement cannot be true while MelanieN's statement at 01:21, 23 January 2018 is also true. MastCell surgically omits that I disputed that statement by MelanieN at 01:51, 23 January 2018 (UTC), and surgically omits that she then answered at 04:14, 23 January 2018 (UTC): “I might well have done the move in two edits. But my edit summaries would have said that was what I would doing.” MastCell has cherrypicked a statement by MelanieN without telling ArbCom that her statement was followed by further discussion. The admin who brought that charge against me in January has left the project;[93] and MastCell’s accusation now that I have lied is absurd. It is also very characteristic of MastCell's tactics once he sets a goal for himself. I also still disagree with Melanie that there’s anything inconsistent about moving a section lower down in an article, while arguing that the material in the section ought to be selectively scattered chronologically throughout the article. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:56, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
A comment from AE: “Wikipedia’s most effective means of censorship is not to directly modify content, but rather to get rid of editors. You can judge for yourself how true that is.“ Anythingyouwant (talk) 11:06, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
I have no idea why I cannot get an answer to my question here, nor why the outrageous personal attack against me on this page by User:MastCell has been met with complete silence thus far. So sorry to be inconvenient. So sorry to question the limits of discretion. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:20, 3 May 2018 (UTC). I suppose it’s within arbitrator discretion to not explain why something is within admin discretion. I didn’t do anything in January other than move down some new material when there was no consensus to keep it where it was, and I don’t think anyone ought to have discretion to sanction me for doing nothing wrong. Just my opinion, of course. Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:11, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I don’t understand why arbitrators are suggesting to appeal at AE. The sanction was dished out at AE, and whoever heard of appealing at the same place as the original matter? As User:NeilN already said here, “WP:AE would largely be a rehash”. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:12, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm going to copy some of my rationale for the topic ban here: "...I had another look at Anythingyouwant's editing history. On January 20th they were given a one month topic ban from Donald Trump. On January 27th they took a break from editing. They returned on April 13th and went back to Donald Trump a couple days after. On the 19th they started the attacks that landed them here. This indicates they will simply wait until their topic ban expires and then continue their disruption. When reading their "discretionary sanctions applies to user talk pages? really??" comments above, I was struck how similar this was to their behavior outlined in the last case here. Same gaming, same wikilawyering. I don't think a short block will work here based on their Jan-Apr editing history but an indefinite topic ban might. Let them edit in other areas to show they can contribute non-disruptively and have them appeal rather than having the ban simply expire. I'd go with a blanket American Politics ban."
No admin agreed that Anythingyouwant's edit could claim the BLP exemption and there is a civility restriction on the article, making their comments both on their talk page and at the AE request unacceptable. I originally proposed a three month topic ban on Donald Trump but their subsequent comments, along with those of other participants in the request, changed my thinking. In particular, Anythingyouwant asserts and continues to assert above that his one month topic ban "was for an allegedly inaccurate edit summary". Looking at the appeal, members will see that admins unanimously rejected this thinking, with Timotheus Canens stating, "We have indeffed people for shenanigans like this". Given Anythingyouwant had approximately fifty-sixty edits in total between the time the topic ban was imposed and the start of the enforcement request in question, and that they simply stopped editing for over two months, I believed the sanction should not be time-limited so it could be simply waited out but rather indefinite so any appeal had to be bolstered by evidence of constructive contributions in other areas. --NeilN talk to me 00:08, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
The latest statement by Anythingyouwant is another example of continued misrepresentations. "The comment at my user talk was not unsupported, given that WP:BLP had just been violated, and I deleted the comment anyway when I realized that discretionary sanctions might apply at user talk, just to be on the safe side." No admin agreed that the edit met the WP:3RRNO BLP-exemption criteria and they deleted the comment well after discussion had started about the AE request. [94], [95]. This is not Anythingyouwant deleting the comment "anyway" after having an epiphany and "just to be on the safe side". The deletion came after they were explicitly told multiple times that user talk pages were not free-for-all zones. This is the same type of behavior that got their one week topic ban in January put back up to a month upon appeal. --NeilN talk to me 21:06, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
I commented on the AE related to the fact that while one can argue that the edit was resolving a BLP violation, 3RRNO does not consider it the type that is exceptional under 3RR or for any article under a edit-warring DS concern. While I fully agree with the edit, 3RR is pretty clear that edit warring over it was not appropriate. Some type of action was necessary, and AYW's prior record here (the previous 1 month ban in the area) does warrant a longer one That said, the jump from a suggested 3 month topic ban to indef makes little sense based on the AE discussion, particularly given that the edit AYW did was eventually accepted and added to the page after talk page discussion. I feel this is punishing AYW for having a certain POV, which from their edits seems difficult to necessarily identity, outside of the fact they end up not disagreeing with the majority of editors in that space. I do agree their behavior at their previous appeal [96] feels like gaming and agree with how that closed, I'm just not seeing anything like that here. They felt omission of a certain statement violated BLP, did a 1RR to retail it believing they were right per 3RRNO, and then went to the talk page. That's not gaming anything. Some short topic ban is needed, but not an indef. --Masem (t) 23:48, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Since I have never edited Donald Trump [97], and I have never edited User talk:Anythingyouwant [98], I have no idea why I'm listed as a party to this request. Unless something tying me to this dispute can be presented, I would ask that my name be removed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:29, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
I am an involved editor with regard to the Donald Trump article. I am commenting here since I was pinged by Anythingyouwant. I would like to set the record straight. Anything’s description of my input at the January discussion is incorrect. He claims that I found his two edits “fully permissible” and disapproved only of the edit summaries. The truth is that I described his two edits as a “cute trick” and an “attempt to game the DS sanctions.” His goal was to move material within the article - a move that had been disputed at the talk page and consensus had not been not reached. His method of moving it was, first to delete it as a “challenge by reverting,” claiming the material was riddled with bias and POV pushing - and then to immediately re-add it, without any changes, to the location where he wanted it to be, with an edit summary saying that nobody could put it anywhere else in the article without consensus. I regarded this as basically fraudulent and said so. The fact that he is now trying to re-litigate that situation by blatantly misrepresenting my input does not argue well for a relaxation of his sanctions. --MelanieN (talk) 03:44, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
And another cute one by Anythingyouwant: In the "Statement by SPECIFICO" section, Mdann removed SPECIFICO's comment as a clerk action. Anythingyouwant then selectively restored part of the first sentence of SPECIFICO’s comment - namely, the part that was a little bit complimentary.[104] Is it permissible for an editor to write in another editor’s section like that, and to manipulate that editor’s comment for their own purposes? Just wondering. --MelanieN (talk) 17:39, 1 May 2018 (UTC) P.S. I guess not since Mdann has now reverted it. --MelanieN (talk) 17:44, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
I am not a party to this dispute, but I did comment at the AE discussion, have made a total of 7 edits to Donald Trump since September 2017, and have participated on the TP of that article. I much prefer editing equine articles where the whole horse is the topic. [FBDB] I did request leniency for Anythingyouwant at AE as evidenced by this diff, and will repeat the crux of my comment: "My perception of AYW's attempt to add the denial to the lede was that it was a GF edit based on NPOV and BLP. AYW did go to the article TP in an attempt to discuss the inclusion. I don't think irritating another editor at a TP justifies a block or TB. My interest in this case is more focused on the NPOV argument which I see as being inseparable from BLP. Prior to this case being filed, I posted a tough question on the TP of TonyBallioni hoping to get some thoughtful input. The diff I used in that same discussion included AYW's edit as an example." I quickly learned that AP2 articles can be highly controversial, so stepping over the DS restriction line is not unexpected; however, in this case, I truly believe it was done inadvertently. Atsme📞📧 03:40, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Today in an AE complaint against editor "KEC" one of the responding administrator said:
To assist those responding in offering informed commentary, can administrators who commented here (or in the original complaint) please clarify:
Thank you. James J. Lambden (talk) 19:13, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
First, this isn't a "Request for Clarification and Amendment". Is there something unclear about the sanction (which would need clarification) or self-contradictory (which would require an amendment)? No. This is a straight up APPEAL of the sanction. And the place for APPEALS is WP:AE itself.
Second, this is becoming a pattern. Fairly recently another user - Dheyward - also got sanctioned, then appealed to like fifteen different venues (yes, that is a purposeful but illustrative exaggeration), then finally came here and you guys granted his appeal (though it's not really your job to do so, except in extraordinary circumstances). I warned you then this would happen. Anyone who gets sanctioned at WP:AE will now come running to ArbCom with an appeal - if they can't get one anywhere else - which sort of defeats the whole purpose of WP:AE in the first place (which was, if any of you where around long enough to remember, precisely so that ArbCom wouldn't have to deal with this kind of stuff and could concentrate on the "big stuff"). If you persist in second guessing admins at WP:AE (and god knows they make mistakes), what's the point of having WP:AE? Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:45, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Right, here it is. At least one previous instance where Anythingyouwant tried to do the exact same thing, claim BLP to get his way, when in fact it was pretty clear he was trying to just GAME the DS restriction: "Since Sandstein has asked that I handle this, and there does seem to be agreement that this was not BLP exempt and that Anythingyouwant knew what they were doing, I'll go ahead and resolve this: Anythingyouwant is placed on 0RR for 1 month on Roy Moore and any topic related to the United States Senate special election in Alabama, 2017, broadly construed. ". Closed by User:TonyBallioni.
Now, given that this exact sequence of events unfolded before (sans winding up here) what do you think are the chances that when Anythingyouwant made their latest-DS-violating-edit that led to their ban, they were thinking "gee shucks, I can't possibly be violating discretionary sanctions here because this is such an obvious BLP issue no one will ever object by golly!" The dude did exact same thing before and got sanctioned for it. He was trying again (you got to ask him why he though it'd work this time). It didn't work this time either. Hell, if anything he deserves another sanction for trying the same game twice (points off for lack of originality!), just as a lesson to be more creative about his WP:GAMEing in the future.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:46, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
The issue here is not the diffs provided by Anythingyouwant in their statement, but this AE discussion about Anythingyouwant. Was anything improperly done by admins? At the end of this AE discussion (at the very bottom of the thread), two experienced admins agreed with NeilN and one suggested a softer restriction. No doubts, such sanctions are always a matter of personal judgement (the "discretion"), and the judgement can be different. According to current rules, such sanctions do not require a consensus of admins. Thinking logically, everyone who has been sanctioned on AE should complain to Arbcom in a hope that the consensus of Arbcom administrators will be different from the good faith judgement by a few or a single AE administrator. But of course not everyone runs immediately to Arbcom, because at least some people tend to admit their own mistakes and value time of other contributors.
Should such complaints be encouraged? Yes, if there is an obvious error of judgement by an AE administrator. However, when it happens, the most appropriate way is to make an appeal directly on WP:AE. In this particular case, I think Anythingyouwant knew that his appeal on WP:AE will not be granted because the sanction was a reasonable judgement by several admins, and it would be harder to argue his case here after the decline of appeal on WP:AE. Therefore, Anythingyouwant went directly to Arbcom. My very best wishes (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Sanctioning administrator User:NeilN makes it explicitly clear above that AYW was sanctioned for a comment on his talk page. However, since that talk page is not under discretionary sanctions, then the sanction placed as “arbitration enforcement” seems out of process. Many editors, including a couple who have commented here, have certainly made somewhat uncivil posts recently. Are we really going to be sanctioning editors on this basis? Mr Ernie (talk) 17:29, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
I don't know why so many people seem to think that user talk pages are somehow exempt from DS, but, while yes Anythingyouwant's entire talk page isn't under DS, certain edits are per: standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. Thus, Anythingyouwant's edit on his talk page was certainly about American Politics, and thus under the discretionary sanctions, and under the many other policies we have.
Even beyond the wording, the point of DS is reduce this sort of crap — bad faith accusations of POV pushing, subverting the rules etc— and to instead have have decorum where we can constructively build the encyclopedia with civil discussion. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:45, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Removed by clerks - feel free to rewrite per talk. Mdann52 (talk) 15:06, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
The edit that led to this was soon added anyway to the article by consensus decision. Anythingyouwant erred here and has erred before as have many of us so it seems to me the penalty was excessive.--MONGO 03:08, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
Amazed the character assassinations going on here, with editors like Mastcell calling Anythingyouwant a liar, saying he's lying, etc., "Anythingyouwant is lying. He's lying. To you. Right here, in the course of trying to convince you that he shouldn't be sanctioned for deceptiveness." and SPECIFICO with their personal attacks as well, stating clearly above that Anythingyouwant, "most dogged and resourceful POV pushers and disruptive presences" "Anythingyouwant is a poster child for NOTHERE editing. He is a relentless POV-pushing wikilawyer." Very odd that some of the people Mastcell seems to call good faith editors I might not feel the same about. Very discouraging.--MONGO 12:38, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
Several editors have stated that sanctions at issue were imposed because of one or two specific edits (one article edit and possibly one talk page edit; see AYW's original post to this appeal). The admins who assented to the sanctions also cited other factors including "the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude and continued jibes on display here" (User:NeilN), "AYWs long history of battleground editing, and for the 'one of the anointed ones' crap" (User:Bishonen), "the aspersions and general battleground attitude on display is deeply unimpressive" (User:GoldenRing), and so on. The impression is that the sanctions were levied for an ongoing pattern of behavior and because briefer or less severe sanctions had proven ineffective, rather than a single edit (or two). But I could be wrong so you Arbcom folks might want to ask the admins themselves. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:09, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
@Anythingyouwant:, that was a copy-paste accident. Apologies. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:20, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
First review some of Anythingyouwant's relevant history:
So it's well-documented that Anythingyouwant has a recurring issue with trying to game the system, and that he knows, or should know, that his judgement is poor when it comes to invoking the BLP exemption for edit-warring. In that context, his indefinite topic ban (for, again, misusing the BLP exemption to justify editing violations) seems proportionate and appropriate, if not long overdue.
Now look at Anythingyouwant's behavior in this request:
Anythingyouwant is lying. He's lying. To you. Right here, in the course of trying to convince you that he shouldn't be sanctioned for deceptiveness.
I see MelanieN also called this out above, more politely than I have, but there is no polite gloss for this, and it's part of a pattern of behavior (which I've linked, in part, above). I don't know why Anythingyouwant seems incapable of engaging forthrightly with his fellow editors, but I'm not sure it matters. This sort of behavior is poisonous to the editing environment, and good-faith contributors deserve to be protected from it. MastCell Talk 05:08, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
I was messaged by AYW, asking me to come here as a party to the dispute. Not a party, I just commented at AE (and I do see this has already been addressed, and AYW has amended the list of parties). I think a topic ban is entirely appropriate, although I would suggest NeilN may wish to avoid closing AE sanction discussions and implementing the outcome when he has been participating in the discussion. In this instance, it would not have made much difference, as AYW does need to be restricted from editing in areas where he is mentally incapable of maintaining a neutral approach to editing, such as politics; I think indefinite is more than I would have gone for, but it's within the realms of reasonableness, and so the ground for appealing this AE sanction are very shaky. Note that I don't care about the incivility on the talk page, which is a red herring, that should not have been a reason for the sanction, and shouldn't have been listed in the AE submission by MrX, as it just muddied the waters. But we are where we are. This edit was sufficient for the article editing restrictions to be triggered. Their previous shorter-term sanctions clearly did not induce AYW to amend their behaviour, and so a longer-term measure is appropriate. Fish+Karate 09:42, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
I have read some of this incredibly lengthy thread; I'd recommend the committee simply take up American Politics 3 if they feel this appeal has merit. As a separate suggestion, perhaps a "post-2000 American politics" topic area would be beneficial? power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:58, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by MrX at 19:40, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Greetings. I am bringing this here at the recommendation of several AE admins because it's not well suited to WP:AE. The matter concerns the article talk page participation by Atsme in the American politics topic area, that I believe to be disruptive and damaging to the collaborative editing process. As shown in the small sampling of diffs below, Atsme makes a lot of article talk page comments, a great many of which do not positively contribute to building consensus or resolving content disputes. Many of the comments are classic Whataboutism. Others are just off-topic screeds, diversions, defensive reactions to other's comments, dead horse beating, and attempts at levity.
The most troubling comments are the ones that undermine the credibility of highly-respected sources that are prominently used throughout enwiki. These take the form of characterizing sources like The Washington Post and The New York Times as biased, propaganda, clickbait, biased against Trump, rumor, and gossip. She also has a tendency to falsely refer to verifiable facts as "opinion". Her arguments are frequently based on fringe viewpoints typically found on websites like Breitbart, and are often based on fallacious reasoning.
She makes a disproportionately-high number of comments. In the past six months, more than 7 percent of the comments at talk:Donald Trump have come from her, out of 93 editors who have commented in the same period. That would be fine if she were moving discussions toward consensus or resolution, but that is rarely the case. What usually happens if the she will make increasingly tendentious arguments, and then when criticized for doing so, she gets defensive. Her arguments usually convey a tone of self-appointed WP:POVFIGHTER and frequently contain multiple shortcuts to policies that almost all experienced editors are very well-versed in. She often rehashes arguments that have already been put to rest.
Atsme seems to be a warm and affable person who is rarely uncivil, and who I believe is sincere in her participation in the project. She has made some outstanding contributions to building the encyclopedia in areas outside of American politics, and I have great respect for her for that. It seems though that she has an ideological blind spot which affects her objectivity, and manifests as large amounts of low signal-to-noise ratio commentary.
I am hopeful that Arbcom can deal with this without a full case. I know there are a lot of diffs (and I apologize), but since the behavior is cumulative, rather than incidental, I can't come up with a better way to present this. Sections are roughly arranged in descending degree of concern, and sampling a few diffs should be compelling.
Thank you for your time.
Frequently adds multiple, irrelevant policy shortcuts to he comments
Numerous attempts have been made to get Atsme to follow WP:TPG and and to participate more constructively in content discussions. She has rebuffed all of these efforts.
Frequently misuses WP:NOTNEWS in content disputes.[112][113][114][115]
I am respectfully requesting that the admins reviewing this case please forgive me for not being able to respond to this case. I am feeling more hurt by what MrX just attempted to do than I am upset over it. I'm not sure if what Drmies concluded hurt me more...but it cuts to the core. For me to respond to these allegations, I would have to provide diffs showing their bad behavior...we all know how that game is played, but I am not here to hurt other editors, or to try to silence them because I disagree with their POV or the material they've added or removed. I have always honored consensus - I am here to build an encyclopedia - to participate in collegial debates and present reasonable arguments. I believe that is exactly what I have done, and if the admins who are here to review my behavior will look at the full discussions and not just the cherrypicked diffs, I believe they will agree. I have always tried to include RS with my comments, but...again...I am a bit overwhelmed right now. I don't have it in me to fight this because in order to defend myself, it will be at their expense, and I don't have the heart to do that. Atsme📞📧 21:20, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
I couldn't sleep thinking about this very sad state of affairs, and the intent behind it. I don't see how it can be anything else but a deceitful, premeditated plan to eliminate editors they consider the opposition, and because it couldn't be done any other way, MrX chose to game the system, and inundate ArbCom with months of cherrypicked diffs taken out of context to create a false impression. This is clearly a case of WP:POV railroad, thinking it was the only to stop a productive, collaborative editor who never showed ill-will or wished any harm on anyone.
Please keep in mind that the articles in question are subject DS restrictions/1RR-consensus required; therefore, editors have no choice but to participate in relentless discussions on the TP in order to achieve consensus. The process involves nearly every single piece of material that is added or reverted. Of course you will see more input on the TP of those articles, and far more disagreement - just look at the sizes of the Trump articles. The WP:OWN behavior of MrX and others who share his POV, have made the editing environment at those articles very unfriendly with a noticeable resistance to collaborative editing with those whose views differ from their own.
There is no indication of any incivility on my part; rather there is an indication of WP:IDONTLIKEIT by MrX and those who support his POV. Worse yet, the threat by Drmies to me in this diff speaks volumes about this case now: "someone somewhere is marking this down to gather evidence for a topic ban”.
I tried to avoid this - it cuts deeply - but the deceit and the intent to cause me harm when I've tried so hard to do the right thing was simply overwhelming. I believe the evidence I've provided justifies a TB on all Trump-related articles broadly construed for MrX and Drmies, both of whom have demonstrated an obvious disdain for Trump that effects their ability to edit those articles in compliance with NPOV. Their bias is overwhelming, their behavior is shameful, especially that of an administrator I once trusted, and there are several other editors who harbor the same disdain for Trump who also need to be included in that TB. Atsme📞📧 09:29, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Very disappointing to see this posted here. I would encourage ArbCom, if they are to look into this matter, to look at the whole topic instead of focusing on one editor. For example, over the past year MrX has been very effective removing editors with a different POV than theirs from the topic area. This sort of diff stalking, collecting, and deep diving is somewhat troubling and chilling at the very least. MrX was recently warned about this - see here. Some of the diffs presented here are from a while ago, so it is really disturbing to think there are editors out there holding on to this stuff for months and even years.
Arbcom should dismiss this, or open a full case to look at the entire topic area. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:09, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Commenting purely about procedural aspects, I don't see what the Committee can do here, in the form of an amendment or clarification. This is the sort of thing that AE, based on the DS from American Politics 2, should be able to handle. Now having said that, it has been my recent experience that AE has been failing miserably at dealing with AP2 cases. It tends to look like the AE administrators can't make up their minds about whether or not they are being asked to resolve content disputes, so they keep punting. Sorry to tell you this, but you are eventually going to have to take an AP3 case, and in the meantime, the AP2 content area is a toxic waste dump that does not come down to just one or two editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:18, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
MrX wrote in the opening of his statement: "I am bringing this here at the recommendation of several AE admins because it's not well suited to WP:AE"
I'm curious about (1) What this is supposed to mean; (2) Whether it means administrators have approached him either on- or off-Wiki to lobby him for bringing a case against Atsme here. I would like the statement clarified. I would also like to know if there have been administrators encouraging him to bring a case against Atsme - and if that's the case, (a) it's very troubling that there has been a coordination of attack by admins against an editor, and (b) who are these admins?
For the sake of transparency, this statement needs to be clarified and the community needs to know what communication off-wiki has taken place that was a precursor to this case being brought.
Aside from this, I agree in total with Mr Ernie's statement above. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 20:21, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Drmies, a few things you've said below need to be addressed, especially since several who've commented here have mentioned the AP2 articles in general and have suggested topic bans for a number of editors at those articles. The statement I'm going to comment on is this:
"this cynicism toward reliable sources and reputable media leads to an erosion of trust and in a community that wants to produce an encyclopedia we cannot have that. It takes too much time and energy to counter the many, many unfounded allegations, which drags along editors who might otherwise stay out of the area but who know see their Facebook thread reflected in Wikipedia. In return, other editors are chased out of the area because it is just not worth their time and energy"
None of this is Atsme's fault. None of this is one editor's fault, or even the fault of a couple of editors -- probably not even most. It's the fault, in large part, of however it all spun out of control. No fingers being pointed by me -- but it has to be solved not by topic banning editors, something more meaningful and long-lasting than a bandaid needs to be applied. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 01:53, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
For Winkelvi and others: Previous procedural discussion. No editors were specifically mentioned and I was unsure if a group of editors was going to be reported. --NeilN talk to me 20:30, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
"Atsme seems to be a warm and affable person who is rarely uncivil, and who I believe is sincere in her participation in the project. She has made some outstanding contributions to building the encyclopedia in areas outside of American Politics, and I have great respect for her for that. It seems though that she has an ideological blind spot which affects here objectivity, and manifests as large amounts of low signal-to-noise ratio commentary." I couldn't agree more, and the list of diffs, and their analysis, bears this out. I'm sorry it has to come to this, but esp. the constant misunderstanding of fact vs. opinion and the attendant casting doubt on reliable sources (and the very concept thereof) is highly disruptive. Drmies (talk) 20:49, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
PS, about the Atsme stuff: Fyddlestix correctly articulates the problem with all the "NPOV and NOTNEWS and FRINGE" stuff. We have policy shortcuts for good reasons; the problem isn't in using them, it's in repetitively ignoring arguments against the editor's personal [mis]interpretations of the policies and guidelines in question. That said, I agree that the editor is productive in other areas. As noted above, I don't think the problems is this topic area are particularly to do with this editor, though. Un-disclaimer: I'm a political centrist, so I'm not taking an ideological side in this mess.. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:36, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
My full statement to the Arbs is located here.
Atsme is one of a very (very) small number of Wikipedians I would like to consider my friend, but I strongly urge the arbs to take this case. I have written my entire response here, so as not to post a giant wall of text on this page. I strongly encourage the arbs to read it in it's entirety before deciding whether or not to take this case.
Atsme, I hope you don't take my support here as a betrayal, because it's not. You are not the only editor I think should get the hell out of AmPol, and I don't think you're entirely to blame for why you should get out. So I encourage you to take my advice: let the Arbs take this case to try and fix the cesspool that is AmPol, but in the meantime, do as I did and just unwatch every directly political page on your watchlist. At the very least, doing so would essentially remove any reason to sanction you, regardless of what ArbCom thinks of the evidence above. If you don't think you can do that, or you can't accept that you should, then I'm afraid I would need to strongly support any proposed topic ban for you. Please don't make it come to that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:22, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Procedural questions aside, I'd just like to encourage admins/arbs to not be too quick to dismiss this and to take the time to look at the pattern of behavior and how much disruption it's caused over time. Atsme really does have difficulty accepting RS as RS when it comes to the AP area, and a tendency to repeatedly spam WP:POLICYSHORTCUTS as if they were an automatic "i win" button in AP debates, while ignoring other editors' earnest explanations of why the policy might not apply/why it might not be that simple (ie, IDHT). This is a pattern of behavior that has remained unchanged for a long period of time, despite repeated pleas/warnings from others - this RFC from over a year ago, for example, shows much the same type of disruptive behavior displayed in MrX's more recent diffs. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:56, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
I suggest you turn this into an actual case request, as this is not new behaviour on Atsme's part, and it has never been limited to American Politics, as Atsme either has a competence issue (they dont just have a problem with NPOV and sources, they have had ongoing issues with the BLP as well), or a deliberate misunderstanding of policies and guidelines when other editors disagree with them. When you have problems going on for over 3 years, its not going to be suited to an AE request - as they usually result in a short block/ban from a topic. And while AN can (and does) handle ongoing editor behavioural issues, its probably not suited in this case. Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:57, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
This should be a case request and not at ARCA. I assume the clerks will move this if there is interest in a case. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Regarding a case: I don't see a strong need for an "American Politics 3" ARBCOM case at this time. Content disputes are often very heated in the area, and the project would benefit from several editors observing a page-ban from Donald Trump and its talk page. But that can be handled under existing discretionary sanctions. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Regarding clarification: I feel there should be a generally-understood scope for a topic-ban on "Donald Trump, broadly construed"; when these have been issued (as opposed to a page-ban or a full AP2 topic ban) they have turned into excessive wiki-lawyering. I have not been able to come up with any specific proposal that is an improvement, and the committee may want to simply discourage the use of a "Trump TBAN", and that admins should use a full AP2 topic-ban when that is necessary. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
I don't see anything preventing me from acting on MrX's diffs per the AP2 discretionary sanctions, no matter where the diffs have been filed, so long as I've seen them. I have therefore topic banned Atsme indefinitely from post-1932 American politics. The ban is a regular discretionary sanctions ban per single admin discretion, and can be appealed at AN, AE or ARCA in the usual way. It can be appealed right away, certainly, but after that, no more frequently than every six months. I thought at first a topic ban from Donald Trump and related pages might do it, but Beyond My Ken's argument here against Donald Trump bans convinced me against that. I institute this ban per all MrX's categories: wikilawyering, long-time persistent resistance to good advice, repeating arguments ad nauseum, filibustering and dominating discussions without bringing them forward, and, most of all, for repeatedly discrediting reliable sources. Drmies has explained very well the harm the last point does. Not all MrX's diffs are impressive, but together they paint a pretty appalling picture of an editing pattern that drains the time and energy of other users and is a persistent negative on talkpages. I should say that Am Pol is no rosegarden even if we disregard Atsme's input, and probably won't be one even if my ban is upheld. Several people have recommended an AP3 case to deal with the chaos on Trump-related pages. Personally, though, I feel that AP2 does give admins the ability to act decisively. Anyway, whether or not such an arbitration case is brought, or indeed an individual case to deal with Atsme's Am Pol editing, I don't see why I shouldn't try to take care of this gas leak. As Fyddlestix says, it's a start and a step worth taking.[117] Atsme is an OTRS volunteer; I believe this topic ban precludes her from having anything to do with e-mails that concern American politics, but that's a little too arcane for me; perhaps, as long as we are on the ARCA page, the arbitrators would like to clarify that matter?
I too want to express my regret. Atsme is a fine contributor in other areas, and I'm a great admirer of the photographic art she contributes to the project. Like several previous years, I've voted for one of her amazing pictures in the ongoing Commons Picture of the Year contest. Bishonen | talk 09:38, 29 June 2018 (UTC).
Well, if an arbcom case were opened, not sure where to begin. The problem with any politics, especially the most recent ones, is all we really have are news clips, written almost always in an audience satisfying manner, as sources. Of course these sources, if we are talking about major news networks, are deemed reliable. But they are, a great number of them, also geared to grab attention, not peer reviewed and lack the journalistic integrity of scientific papers. This sourcing for recent politics is going to suffer the inevitable bias of writers who are seeing things through the lens of immediacy, and not through the lens of hind sight. The inevitable outcome is articles about recent events and people that are far below quality levels of the website's best articles. Arguing, even forcefully, about whether a news feed is neutral is, a worthy effort. Comparing subpar articles to FA level articles is a worthy effort. Fighting to make sure articles, especially BLPs, are neutrally covered, is a worthy effort. I write fighting in a figurative way...in that protecting BLPs is paramount and I have long felt very disturbed when editors clearly state, not only in words but also in actions, how much they have a distaste for a subject, then turn around and blatantly fight to add all the negativism they can and work to eliminate all the positives they can, and use noticeboards to try and eliminate their editing adversaries and the same noticeboards to defend their editing allies. But far more chilling and despicable than that, is when those in positions of higher trust and power, also insult, ridicule and bully those they disagree with politically both on the article talkpages and the user talks and noticeboards as well. Indeed, were an arbcom case filed, not sure where to even begin as the problems are so pervasive here and some actions so obvious, that any neutral party recently arrived at this website and seeing how this all unfolds would surely declare that all this is insanity and fully noncompliant with any semblance of neutrality or fairness.MONGO (talk) 12:43, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Although initial reaction from Rob, et al. was understandable, it's time to realize this has moved on, well passed that.
Atsme has accused a person, and relevant here, an admin of stalking[118] and abusing admin status (an admin action, ban, predicated on the diffs in this very filing by Mr. X). Per WP:NOTBUREAU, treat this as an appeal of a ban to be heard here, or the ctte should motion it into a case. DO NOT send this anywhere else for more (disruptive) process. You are the only ctte set-up that deals with precisely this stuff. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:57, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Atsme at 18:32, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
I am here to appeal my t-ban after taking some time off for introspection, and to analyze the many diffs MrX presented in his case against me. I published the results at User talk:Atsme/RVW. This has been a difficult case for me because I once held MrX in high regard; however, his accusation that I have an ideological blindspot is, in and of itself, evidence that he believes his own ideology is superior, and I consider that to be detrimental to the project. His case against me was devastating as my initial reaction shows but I have since learned from it.
I’m sure we can all agree that sanctions are not intended to prevent free and candid discussion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think civil disagreement while seeking consensus would be grounds for a sanction, or that suggesting consistency with MOS or using humor here and there to defuse tense situations would be grounds for sanctions. Articles with DS/1RR-consensus required restrictions naturally increase discussion, and one can expect lively debates because reverted editors tend to experience higher levels of frustration.
Administrators are expected to exercise good judgment, and respond flexibly and proportionately when they intervene. They should carefully analyze behavior without preference or bias, and determine if a remedy has been violated, or if the case and associated preliminary warnings were vexatious. Accused editors are customarily given an opportunity to defend themselves, but above all, they should not have to deal with intimidation, threats, or enforcement by an involved administrator. Unfortunately, none of the aforementioned received proper consideration in my case as the following diffs will demonstrate.
MrX presented a compilation of cherrypicked diffs taken out of context, grouped them with prepended aspersions, exaggerations and misrepresentations in his ARCA case against me. It is patterned behavior used to rid himself of opposition. (Note: I have many more diffs that establish the pattern if needed)
MrX was aware there was neither a smoking gun nor clear evidence of disruption worthy of a t-ban in my case.
Disruptive behavior by MrX for comparison purposes
The following will demonstrate that there was a lack of urgency for Bishonen to impose a t-ban which she inadvertently admits in her statement below. The ARCA case was only 12 hrs old, and her action against me was retaliatory and had a chilling effect, as it followed within 9 min after I posted the 1st phase of evidence in my defense which including diffs of incivility against her fellow admin.
Further evidence of Bishonen’s involvement
Aug 2017, Bishonen appeared at AN3 for this one case while she was on a semi-break, and of course, it was the case I filed
Floquenbeam, allow me to clarify. I intended for the diffs MrX used against me - which I published with an analysis at User talk:Atsme/RVW - to be used as a comparison to the diffs I included here. I hope the arbs will take the time necessary to compare the two behaviors before they decline this case, and at least help me understand why they believe my behavior was worthy of a t-ban as compared to his. Am I expected to adjust my behavior to be more like that of those not being t-banned? Bishonen also pointed out in her statement during my case that my t-ban would not stop the disruptive behavior at those articles - isn't that the purpose of a t-ban - to stop/prevent disruption to the project? If her action did not prevent disruption, why was I singled out by an involved admin? I think my evidence speaks volumes. It does not surprise me to see admins and editors I have a history with to show up here to defend those in their camp. All I asked is for the arbs to review the evidence, compare the two behaviors, confirm the involvement and explain to me why I was singled out. Is that too much to ask? Atsme📞📧 16:46, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Drmies, you have already demonstrated your inability to judge me without bias when you misinterpreted my adherence to NPOV in this diff and then said the hurtful things you said to me here when I asked for help. I'm sorry, but it's just not appropriate for you to sit in judgment of me when those 2 diffs alone demonstrate how you really feel. Atsme📞📧 17:13, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
As the banning admin, I think it's appropriate to leave the consideration of whether or not Atsme's topic ban should be lifted to the arbitrators. My rationale for placing the ban on 29 June 2018 can be seen here and here. At this time I only want to say I don't understand Atsme's claim that I'm an involved admin wrt her, and also don't understand her case (?) against MrX. She has been insisting I'm involved since at least 2015, but I've never understood it, and the diffs she posts above seem irrelevant, some of them wildly so. Bishonen appears from her semi-break? Bishonen said "Fuck" when Andy the Grump retired? Bishzilla puts little Giano in her pocket for safe-keeping [sic]? Seriously, what? See WP:INVOLVED. I can't find any diff in that list that suggests I'm involved wrt Atsme, let alone that my admin actions are "retaliatory" (?). I don't understand the diffs purporting to show bad behaviour by MrX, either. How do they make his filing of an ARCA case against Atsme inappropriate? OMG, I see he, too, has been guilty of "profanity" — though less gravely than me — he has said "bullshit".[120] What does any of it have to do with the price of tea in China? Bishonen | talk 19:55, 9 August 2018 (UTC).
The stuff about Bishonen seems silly enough that I won't comment on it. Sorry, Bish. (well, ok, one comment: pocketing Giano?! what the?!) But I do want to point out - not as a rhetorical gambit, not as a gotcha, but as a real, honest observation/complaint - that all of the diffs regarding Mr.X, an editor with whom she frequently crossed swords in the AP topic area, have nothing to do with an "appeal". This portion of her appeal here should be considered a violation of her topic ban, clearly attacking an AP opponent when she's topic banned from AP, superficially masquerading as an appeal. We need to stop people from doing this. An appeal should be an appeal, not a free, sanction-immune opportunity to attack an opponent in an area she is otherwise topic banned from. I realize that a sanction will be characterized by her as "punishment for appealing", but having to deal with that kind of spin should not prevent someone from clearly and strongly discouraging this kind of games-playing. I suggest allowing her to remove this request, and give her time to create one that has a greater than 2% chance of succeeding, and that does not attempt to attack MrX. If she says she wants to remove this, I won't mind if my comment here goes down the memory hole too; I would hope MrX and Bish wouldn't mind either, tho I can't speak for them. Of course, I have a feeling the Arb bureaucracy won't like a simple removal, or others will start to comment soon and make the suggestion moot, but it's worth suggesting. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:21, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
It's been a long time since Bishonen called an editor "you little shit" but I'd like to address whether Bishonen issues bans inconsiderately, with an example from during a dispute between two editors about calling a person a climate change denier (a subtopic that Bishonen had once edited). 11:16 Bishonen sent a DS/alert to Editor#2. 15:48 Editor#2 reverted to restore some tags. 15:50 Editor#2 on the talk page asked the person who inserted the tags whether it's okay. 16:35 Bishonen banned Editor#2 "for persistent disruptive editing on Myron Ebell and its talkpage" with "... no input on talk" (which was incorrect). So for this one post-alert edit Editor#2 got indefinitely banned not just from Myron Ebell but from climate change broadly construed. I hope administrators see this as confirmation that Bishonen bypasses usual procedures too quickly. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:49, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
I think Peter left a bit of history out of his banned-for-one-edit narrative above: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myron_Ebell&offset=20161110160000&action=history&tagfilter= --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:05, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
If Peter Gulutzan believes that Bishonen has a history of misapplying their authority as an admin, then Peter Gulutzan should file a desysop request at Requests for Arbitration. If they don't have the evidence to support such a request, then their coming here with (half-a-)story intended to besmirch Bishonen's reputation should be removed from this amendment request as totally irrelevant. As Floquenbeam points out above, this is not, and should not be, a free-fire zone for past disputes which have no connection to the current matter. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Hopefully the clerks will clear up some of this off-topic nonsense regarding Peter Gulutzan.
Whatever the nature of Atsme's appeal, it should be declined. The topic-ban was imposed exactly as the committee intended discretionary sanctions to be imposed. Attempting to continue a disagreement with MrX demonstrates the motivation for those sanctions, an appeal based on continuing that argument should never be successful in this forum. I'd recommend no action against anyone for any TBAN violations in this thread so far. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:24, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
An appeal based solely upon attacking both the original filer and the implementing admin rarely succeeds for good reason. I don’t see any acceptance of behavioral problems for any of the numerous diffs. We need some reason to believe a change in behavior will occur. (Involved as I’m certain I was a part of some of the discussions related to the diffs.) O3000 (talk) 02:44, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Decline per Floq's commentary.A host of irrelevant diffs about Bish's activities and some other points, that leads to an impression of her utilising this board to sanction MrX.∯WBGconverse 05:57, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
I had a look at some of the Bishonen diffs, which are meant to prove that Bishonen is partial--it led me to Wikipedia:Advocacy ducks, where Atsme claims a somewhat humorous caption, which reasonable follows another Pythonesque caption, is "gibberish" (and "vandalism" in a subsequent IP edit, followed by a request for oversight--oversight of what, Bishonen rightly asks, and somehow this comment on Bishonen's part is "snarky" and grounds for the INVOLVED accusation. No. The committee should decline this appeal, which is little more than NOTTHEM. Drmies (talk) 15:12, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
In my opinion the topic ban appeal should be declined. Atsme has been an extremely disruptive force on Wikipedia in this topic area for nearly two years (by far the most disruptive regular Wikipedian I have seen in my 11 years here), and in my opinion the topic ban itself was very late in coming. and not broad enough. (In my opinion the topic ban should have been American politics, broadly construed.) Trying to implicate Bishonen is ridiculous; Bishonen has a very long history of clarity, integrity, and neutrality even when she is in disagreement; in fact, she has defended Atsme against others when the situation merited it. Softlavender (talk) 18:42, 10 August 2018 (UTC); edited Softlavender (talk) 19:32, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
All I can say is that the following reasoning is bizarre: "Editors/admins X, Y, and Z have a history of opposing my behavior, so they are clearly biased against me and their opinions about me should be disqualified." (I think my paraphrasing is accurate enough.) In other words, the only people qualified to speak on this matter should be those who are unsure of their positions about it, or haven't shown any interest until now. That kind of argument alone is enough to push me off any fence I may have been on. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:47, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Atsme at 23:53, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
I believe Awilley is a good admin trying to accomplish good things but is going about it the wrong way. He has inadvertently misused the tools and created more disruption than he's resolved. His bias is sometimes obvious but not consistently so. He takes unilateral actions based on his customized DS which has lead to POV creep and specific DS for specific editors as he sees fit. He is micromanaging AP2 and controlling the narrative by lording over editors. His experimental undertakings and ominous presence have a chilling effect. The following diffs will demonstrate the depth of his involvement and why ArbCom needs to modify/amend AE, particularly with reference to the issues mentioned herein. Note: I pinged only the few admins mentioned in the diffs below, but do not consider them or any of the editors named to be involved parties.
Awilley said: Me just now: "Hey Google, define gaslighting."
My phone: "Gaslight: manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity."
I don't think "gaslighting" is an appropriate word to describe most garden variety disputes that pop up on Wikipedia's talk pages, if that's what you're trying to get at. ~Awilley (talk)
Atsme responds: No, actually I believe you should have referred to WP:GASLIGHTING instead - then you would have recognized what the others were doing to me. Atsme Talk 📧 10:29 am, 25 July 2019
Ivanvector explained: Retarget to Wikipedia:Gaming the system#Gaming the consensus-building process (the section directly below the current target) which specifically mentions gaslighting as a separate bullet point. In fact it's already listed as a shortcut for that section, not the one it currently targets. I suspect someone just made a mistake. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 1:37 pm, 26 July 2019, Friday (3 months, 30 days ago) (UTC−5)
Awilley replies: "Doh! I should have seen that. I even went so far as to do a search for a more appropriate target, which wasn't very helpful since it brought up the current target and a bunch of AN/I-like pages. Please feel free to speedy close this with the if that's a thing around here. (I can do the retarget myself.)" ~Awilley (talk) 2:00 pm, 26 July 2019, Friday (3 months, 30 days ago) (UTC−5)
GorillaWarfare, if Awilley’s misunderstanding of gaslighting is not the reason in your view, then what is exactly? Slippage into past behavior is technically not a reason. What policy did I violate? What behavior was disruptive to the point of t-ban worthy? Please be specific because the diffs provided do not demonstrate disruption or behavior worthy of a t-ban when what I was saying led to an apology, an RfC and the proper outcome in an AfD wherein I was being bludgeoned. I am even more confused now than when I started and would very much appreciate your naming a t-ban worthy violation. Does an admin saying WP:IDONTLIKEIT apply as a valid reason to call an editor’s consensus building discussion disruptive behavior? I really need to know the policy I violated so I don’t repeat the behavior. Atsme Talk 📧 11:57, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
"an administrator whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not show bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area. Warnings, calm and reasonable discussion and explanation of those warnings, advice about community norms, and suggestions on possible wordings and approaches do not make an administrator 'involved'."
Summary table of custom sanctions
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Examples of custom sanctions from other admins
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I have previously criticized Awilley's special discretionary sanctions as complex and arbitrary. In response, Awilley deprecated the anti-filibuster sanction as too complex. Anti-filibuster sanction was this: In talk page discussions you are limited to 3 initial posts, then 1 post per 24-hrs. In threads specifically for voting you are limted to 1 post.
Imagine having to count that for highly active editors. You'd have to WP:HOUND pretty hard to see it enforced.
Well, good that is was deprecated. But the principle of giving this much discretion needs to be evaluated. Being this customizable and complex means it's hard to enforce them in an even way. It is also interesting to see that the special sanction for Snooganssnoogans was negotiated away. Special discretion is like entering the King's court and seeing if he, on this occasion, wants to give you sanctions 1, 2, 3 and 4 or if you can strike a side-deal. Needless to say, the situation would be unworkable if all admins had their own set of special sanctions. --Pudeo (talk) 15:46, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Sometimes there is a need to make sanctions a little flexible. But to avoid confusion, this needs to be kept very close to the standard parameters. I understand Awilley's desire to find sanctions that might possibly be more effective than the standard. But this is not really the sort of thing that is fair to the subjects of these sanctions --or even those threatened by such sanctions-- when done by individual experimentation. Very reasonably the enactment of DS by Arb Com the last few years has been in the direction of greater standardization, instead of the earlier experimentation case by case. Even as a committee we learned not to try to be too inventive. Dispute resolution needs a stable environment. DGG ( talk ) 19:35, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Can be discussed in a separate request if needed. My very best wishes (talk) 01:48, 22 November 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I think Arbcom should establish a limited set of standard discretionary sanctions to be used by admins. Simply saying "any reasonable measure" here is not good enough. I am not saying the sanctions by Awilley were bad, outside discretion or unreasonable. To the contrary, I think you need to look at them and decide if something Awilley suggested can be used as a basis for the new standard DS, in addition to 1RR, page protection, etc. You might also look at the "consensus required" restriction used in AP area. However, I think that one should never be used, based on the amount of confusion and infighting it caused. My very best wishes (talk) 20:27, 20 November 2019 (UTC) |
There are at least two uncomfortable "amendment request" bedfellows here. Both DGG and Pudeo, perhaps also MVBW, seem to be getting Awilley's bog standard topic ban of Atsme from Anti-fascism broadly construed mixed up with Awilley's "special discretionary sanctions". The topic ban Atsme is appealing here has nothing to do with those special sanctions, but was simply placed per the AP2 discretionary sanctions. DGG has previously criticized Awilley's special sanctions roundly, compare User talk:Awilley/Discretionary sanctions, passim but especially recently, and so has Pudeo (but I'm not going to dig that up). They are perhaps so interested in the special sanctions that they can't resist posting about them here. Indeed, Atsme also alludes to Awilley's special sanctions: "Admins should not be permitted to create their own DS, or micromanage a topic area by imposing unilateral actions against editors for violations of DS that are not specifically defined in ArbCom Remedies". And yet this request is framed as an amendment to (= a lifting of) Awilley's indef T-ban from Anti-fascism broadly construed. If getting that T-ban lifted is Atsme's goal here, then Awilley's special sanctions are neither here nor there, for the T-ban is not based on them, and people should stop confusing the arbitrators by bringing them up. If, on the other hand, Atsme primarily wants to complain to ArbCom about Awilley's special sanctions, that is a much bigger subject, which should not be mixed with an irrelevant T-ban request. She may wish to consider posting another, separate, ARCA request about the special sanctions.
For my part, I find Awilley's detailed rationale for the topic ban persuasive. It is largely based on Atsme's own promises and undertakings when she successfully appealed a previous, broader, topic ban from the entirety of the AP2 area. People believed those undertakings, and therefore accepted her appeal.
(Parenthetical note: Atsme has also listed Wikipedia:Administrators#Involved admins and Wikipedia:Administrators#Accountability under "Clauses to which an amendment is requested", but I'm going to assume that was accidental, and due to the constraints of the ARCA template. Atsme surely knows that it's not for ArbCom to amend Wikipedia's policies, and merely meant to say those policies support her request.) Bishonen | talk 14:57, 21 November 2019 (UTC).
I'd like to make a couple of indirectly related points here. First, Atsme, an ARCA where you are appealing your own topic ban isn't the place to demand an examination of Awilley's actions. Second, with respect to specific sanctions; I can understand the desire to make our sanctions regimes as simple as possible. However, it is worth noting that a specific sanction is often created because the only reasonable alternative would be a much broader sanction. I have on numerous occasions proposed specific sanctions because they were the only workable way to allow an editor to continue to be productive, and because the alternative responses were draconian. As such, if we move away from user-specific sanctions, I think we will inevitably see more frequent and more severe "standard" sanctions being applied; so y'all might want to think about what you're really asking for. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:32, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
I won't say much, based on the assumption that the Arbs will take 5 minutes to look at Awilley's AE sanction notice and the diffs he included in it, look at Atsme's promises made in her February appeal, and quickly realize this was a measured, restrained use of DS. Reimposing the original full AP topic ban would have been justifiable, but no good deed goes unpunished I guess.
If the committee wants to consider Awilley's specialized DS, that should probably be a separate clarification request; it has nothing to do with Atsme's appeal, because this is a bog-standard topic ban. But per Vanamonde, preventing such specialized DS's will likely just lead to more admins using a full AP topic ban instead. Which - as in this case - might not be a bad thing. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:26, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
As for Awilley's custom discretionary sanctions, while I sometimes disagree with his application, he deserves a few dozen barnstars—and ArbCom's unflinching support and gratitude—for being willing to try something in a topic area that most admins have long since abandoned to belligerent partisans. MastCell Talk 22:02, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
I've spoken with Awilley numerous times and believe he is trying to do the right thing by making tailor-made sanctions and restrictions. But have also seen a number of admins say this is overly complex and difficult to enforce. I am definitely more in favor of an admin who imposes highly specific sanctions that do not eliminate the editor from similar areas within the same topic where they are not causing issues. Lastly, I do not see any reason to sanction Awilley but definitely think Atsme has previously been targeted for relatively minor issues by the same admins that defend far worse activity from editors they share biases with. I mean, it couldn't be more obvious if one was slapped in the head with a trout and frankly, I think its despicable.--MONGO (talk) 23:56, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Winged Blades of Godric...I think a careful review of Atsme's comment indicates she was NOT saying JzG had themselves made unilateral actions in the arena in question. However, when we have admins who so voraciously state their peculiar absolutism as far as what qualifies as referencing (even though said references have repeated been found by the consensus of the Wikippedia community to be reliable), their opinion invaribly carries more weight due to their admin status, for better or worse. Opinion crowns with an imperial voice, sadly.--MONGO (talk) 18:44, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
I was pleased to find myself missing from AWilley's 29 October 2019 pschitt list.
Can Atsme's TBAN be appealed anywhere other than at ArbCom at this point?
Concerning "Gaslighting": I've seen this term a lot on en.wp over the years, starting probably with SageRad at AE in 2016 and most recently in the exchange between GorillaWarfare and Kudpung on the latter's campaign page for election to the body who will decide this case, if it is taken.
I'm a little hesitant to read AWilley's initial call to delete WP:GASLIGHTING as a "cover-up", but I do think that AWilley does have some problems discerning red & green when observing concerted activities across Wikipedia spaces (mainspace, talkspace, usertalkspace, WPtalk-space, and in disciplinary spaces like this one). Still, the ensuing deletion discussion was interesting.
I get how the "having a reputation developed for you" game works. I've been blocked twice by Awilley (which is actually a significant percentage of their blocking activity), and am, in addition, the recipient of one of his special dispensations. As he says, he doesn't enforce them, they're just little brooches of dishonor we're encouraged to show our wiki-friends at AE parties.
I think that, as Katie has suggested, ArbCom should look into how DS are being used and perhaps just as importantly how they are not being used. I will, time permitting, add to the evidence page once/if one is opened. As often, I seem to be awash in evidence. ^^ In short, yes, Awilley's enforcement in AP2 might well tend towards the arbitrary & capricious, from my point of view. The rules themselves are pretty good, of course.
In the larger context of DS-misuse, I suppose I could appeal Kingofaces43 v. SashiRolls (I & II) soon. I was not very successful in appealing Sagecandor v. SashiRolls (I & II) to ArbCom back in the day. There are some notable similarities (and differences) in the two prosecutions. I suppose that the path to irredeemability would begin with pools of tears at AE, rather than at ArbCom?
Still, I do think Atsme is right to raise the question of the mixed reception and enforcement history of Mr. Awilley's special and less special discretionary black marks, since he took over the templating of AP2 from Coffee. If ArbCom chooses to look into that aspect of this case in conjunction with—or separately from—Awilley's TBAN of Atsme, I'll add some diffs. I first looked into this because I like Atsme. I've commented because I'm not absent from the context of the diffs above (e.g. [124]), though I'm not involved in the discussions surrounding antifa.
🌿 SashiRolls t · c 12:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Collapsing as a clerk action --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 22:43, 3 December 2019 (UTC) |
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I commend AWilley for making this a narrower ban than I would have argued for. My experience with Atsme is that she is delightful but given to devoting furious energy to lost causes. That was true when I first encountered her at G. Edward Griffin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), where she was arguing that we were suppressing Laetrile as a cancer cure; it was true in the GMO case; it has been true in numerous recent disputes around American Politics. At WP:RSN, she referred to the "Russian collusion conspiracy theory", a Fox News talking point. That may be an indicator as to the root of the problem, I don't know. It's pretty clear by now that the right wing media bubble does not share a common fact base with mainstream sources, and that's always going to prove difficult on Wikipedia, especially right now - and I have to confess that does cause me to wonder about the advice she might be giving people via OTRS, if she still has access.
I invite the arbitrators to review the history of Wikipedia:Advocacy ducks, notably it's early version almost wholly the work of Atsme here. This is a response to a one against many dispute here. It may be summarised as: when large numbers of people disagree with you, it's probably because they are all colluding to push an agenda. As far as I can tell, nothing has changed since then.
Example: this edit] to her ACE guide for 2019 switches from Support to Oppose 15 minutes after a sitting arbitrator expressed support for this sanction. Yes, you're allowed to do that, but the inference is clear: your qualities as a Wikipedian depend on how closely you agree with Atsme. That is the mentality expressed in the "advocacy ducks" article and the talk page debates that led to the sanction.
Atsme can be lovely, a delight to be around when not on a hot button issue. She gets very passionate about things and has a hard time accepting when consensus is against her. She can be too prone to ascribe opposition to bias, and attempts to talk her down from the Reichstag as harassment. I think the further away from our US politics articles she stays, the happier she will be, especially in a climate where, as seems likely, her preferred sources are operating on an entirely different factual framework from Wikipedia. Guy (help!) 14:01, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
I am sorry, I would go and look through more (from [126]) but I have to pack as I am away this week singing. Fairness is important to me here. I do not want to bury Atsme further, only to show a long history of tenaciously arguing against consensus for including criticism of right-wing groups and figures. From my experience of Atsme the TBAN is proportionate and a net good for both us and her. Guy (help!) 10:39, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
@Atsme:- Can you please point me to a few of JzG's administrative actions, under ACDS, in APOL? ∯WBGconverse 16:12, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Collapsing as a clerk action --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 22:42, 3 December 2019 (UTC) |
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IMHO, the only thing “wrong” with the current TBan is that it doesn’t encompass all of AP2. Atsme has proved a valuable contributor – in areas outside of AP2. When she steps into the AP2 arena, she runs into difficulty. This is apparently due to mistrust of highly regarded RS and a belief that there is a “deep state” conspiracy within the government. It is also due to perceiving bias where it doesn’t exist because her own biases are coloring her view. I think her lengthy statement here suggests such. I’m not asking for a widening of the TBan; so I’m not presenting a case. Just expressing an opinion that Atsme should not complain about a narrow sanction, avoiding politics would be better for both the project and Atsme herself, and that this request should be declined. (Disclosure: I have had many run-ins with the OP.) O3000 (talk) 23:22, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
would rather put my t-ban on hold, and focus on the bigger issue which is highly problematic—there is no need to put anything on hold, especially given many people (yourself included) have already put a lot of time and effort into this discussion. You can open a separate discussion about the custom discretionary sanctions at any point. I understand if you'd rather not do a whole request from scratch, after already putting effort into writing this one—if you'd rather just copy the relevant portion of your statement below to a new request it would be fine by me. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:19, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
That was true when I first encountered her at G. Edward Griffin, where she was arguing that we were suppressing Laetrile as a cancer curebut did not include any diffs that would allow those of us who are unfamiliar with that incident to go familiarize ourselves. I can certainly go look for it, but it's best if you provide the diffs to avoid any doubt that I'm looking at the right argument. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:31, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Slippage into past behavior is technically not a reason.Slippage into the same behavior that led to your original topic ban is absolutely reason enough for an administrator to reinstate a topic ban in a subsection of the same area. In fact, Awilley specifically noted when he granted your appeal that "backsliding into behaviors that led to the ban will result in further sanctions". Diffs were provided along with the topic ban. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:45, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Awilley at 02:00, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
This incident is so inconsequential that normally I would ignore it, but as one of the parties has found it unfair enough to retire [129] and the other has explicitly welcomed Committee oversight [130] [131] [132] here I am. Both editors are people I respect who were acting in good faith, so I hope this can be resolved quickly and without any hard feelings or extra drama.
At issue is this statement by Objective3000 at WP:AE addressing Mandruss and the editor who filed the AE. Mandruss had been taken to AE for reverting the same content twice in 24 hrs and declining (on user talk) to self-revert. After Objective's comment, Mandruss self-reverted and Objective3000 re-reverted. (For what it's worth Mandruss was reverting content that had been recently added to the Lead that didn't have consensus on the talk page. [133])
El_C saw this as tag-team editing to circumvent a sanction and logged a warning for Objective3000 to that effect over my objections. I think Objective did a Good Thing in trying to resolve the problem in the most efficient way possible, and doesn't deserve a logged warning for that. Also note that the edit restriction on the article does not prohibit Objective3000, who had not made any other edits to that article in the preceding week, from reverting a revert, so O3000 did not violate any sanction or policy. ~Awilley (talk) 02:00, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Thank you to the people who have spent time reviewing this. Reflecting on this over the past couple of days, I think what bugs me most is our knee-jerk tendency to classify all tag-team editing as bad. The goodness/badness of tag-teaming, just like regular reverting, depends entirely on the context. It's good when used on vandalism, BLP violations, copyvios, obviously UNDUE/POV content, and edits that are clearly against consensus. It's bad when used indiscriminately to circumvent or disrupt the consensus building process. This is why it surprises me when so few people here, including some Arbitrators, have not commented on the context. If you look at nothing else, please look at this diff (including the edit summary). I realize it's tricky to decipher what text had been added to the Lead between all those references, so here's the text itself for your convenience:
The riots and storming of the Capitol were described as insurrection, sedition, and domestic terrorism.[2][3][4] Some news outlets labeled the act as an attempted coup d'état by Trump.[5][6] The incident was the first time the Capitol had been overrun since the 1814 burning of Washington by the British during the War of 1812.[7][8]
There was not consensus to add this content, and the wikilinks to insurrection, sedition, domestic terrorism, burning of Washington, and coup d'état seem excessive for the Lead of top-level biography. This context makes some of the comments here less than logical. User:Levivich is aware that there was no consensus to add "coup d'etat" to the Lead, as he had voted at Talk:Donald_Trump#Coup_d'etat_attempt, yet he is here criticizing Ojective3000 and Mandruss. User:MONGO cites the fact that this is a high profile BLP as reason to warn O3000, while ignoring that O3000 was the one reverting the contentious content out of the BLP. I see at least two other users here criticizing O3000 who regularly complain about how other editors use recent news to stack the articles of conservative figures with negative information. I can see why User:Black Kite might be cynical, but I think it could be chalked up to our tendency to make snap judgements without looking at context. ~Awilley (talk) 19:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
"Sometimes, even when you're right, you need to step back and leave it to someone else. The language Mandruss removed was overly strong and UNDUE, but not the sort of obviously defamatory material whose removal justifies ignoring a 1RR restriction."I would point out that Objective3000 was that "someone else". There was no 1RR violation, as O3000 had not made any other edits to the article in the preceding week or following days.
As the Eagles sang: “You can check out any time you like. But you can never leave" I was disappointed to see @CaptainEek: and @Power~enwiki: say I threw a fit
and made a threat of retirement
. I made no threat and had no fit. I simply put a retired template on my UTP and archived the rest so folks would know not to post. I made no suggestion of retirement in advance and no statement of my reasons. That is, no parting shot. I also decided not to file an appeal. Can’t one even quietly retire without nasty comments? I am also disappointed that @Levivich: would point to a year-old AE discussion claiming it was prior evidence of me tag-teaming. In fact, SashiRolls made a fallacious claim that five editors were tag-teaming and the result was an indef AP2 TBan for SashiRolls. Attacks against DS editors are extremely common, as can be seen by perusing the drama boards.
Now, as to the situation. DS articles absolutely must have additional restrictions. They are inundated with five-minute old, undigested news (as was the case here), fringe theories, vandalism, and white supremacists, et. al. from the Reddit site de jour spreading hate. But, these restrictions create a very difficult editing environment. Witness the resulting AP2 editor attrition from sanctions here. When six new editors appear from an off-Wiki site pushing the same POV (real tag-teaming), editors run up against 1RR very quickly. It is commonplace for an editor to request another editor make a revert to avoid a 1RR sanction. It is common to suggest a self-rvt after an accidental or iffy edit and then re-revert. I have even seen admins request reverts from other editors. (Most admins are smart enough to avoid DS articles entirely.) Further, DS rules differ by page and keep changing. That’s not a complaint. It’s a necessity.
I’ve talked to the problem. I don’t know the solution. I would suggest that RECENTISM in some form become a guideline instead of an essay. In this case, repeated attempts were made to add contentious “breaking news” to the lead of a highly viewed BLP with no consensus and no corresponding text in the body. The edit I reverted included the words insurrection, sedition, and domestic terrorism in a BLP about some guy named Donald. Personally, I agree with the words – but strongly believe this requires ATP discussion and some time to pass. Frankly, this was verging on a vandalism exception, which I think should nullify Mandruss’ warning. My attempt was to deescalate a situation, guide discussion to the ATP, and remove the BLP problem as quickly as possible. We must have a way to stop news from ending up in a BLP that is so new the ink is still wet.
As my retirement has been mentioned, I must say that my retirement was triggered by the sanction as a vague, logged warning along such lines makes editing in DS areas untenable. However, I also need the time IRL. So, reversal of the warning does not mean return. Not that my minor efforts matter to the project. But, I had a totally clean 13 year record, despite spending most of my time in highly controversial articles sprinkled with land mines (which usually results in acquiring some less than friendly coworkers) and would like that record back. I also think such sanctions have a chilling effect not helpful to the DS editing environment. We already walk on egg shells. Let us not weaponize them.
I would like to thank the three admins and Mandruss who have spoken out in my favor here, and apologize for the length. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
O3000 has now told us that Awilley's premise for this thread ... was based on an unwarranted inference. No, Awilley was correct. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:55, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
After Mandruss explicitly refused to self-revert, Objective3000 proposed to them to "Self-rvt and I’ll rvt." Mandruss then self-reverted (diff), followed by Objective3000 reverting back a mere 2 minutes later (diff). Needless to say, I consider that to be inappropriate, enough to deem noting it in the log to be worthwhile. Note that my log entry (diff) noted Awilley's objection (which, honestly, I still don't really understand) as well as there being mitigating circumstances of an extraordinary nature (pertaining to the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol). Finally, my AE report closure (diff), which reiterated all of that, also praised both Mandruss and Objective3000 for their long-term high-quality work at the AP2 topic area. I don't at all mind giving this particular violation a pass (makes sense), but to conclude that it wasn't actually a violation, that I cannot abide. Beyond all of that, I was sorry and quite shocked to learn that Objective3000 has retired over this. That's a serious loss to the project. My closing summary at the AE report stressed that I didn't intend for the warning to serve as a "blemish" on their "record," but I guess that wasn't enough. El_C 02:49, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
it is rare that we actually see tag teaming, but this seems a pretty clear case of it. Now, if other Committee members end up subscribing instead to your interpretation of it being only a
debatable alleged violation, well, that would surprise me, but I will of course respect that finding. In a pragmatic sense, it would actually probably be better for the project if the Committee were to recommend for me to rescind the warnings, notwithstanding that I'd still consider that to be a logic and policy fail. Because then, Objective3000 may come out of retirement and Mandruss may end their wikibreak early. Which, hey, to me that's better than some abstract notion of principles.
I think PackMecEng's observation pretty much nails it, Awilley. Beyond that, I echo what others have argued before: that you tend to overrely on sanction customization, which, at times, appears to be somewhat esoteric in nature and unclear, or otherwise less than consistent(diff). I vaguely remember, for example, a custom "no personal comments" sanction of his running into difficulties, I think because other admins couldn't figure out how to correctly enforce it. And don't get me wrong, I've indulged in some spectacular failures of custom AE sanctions. But the point is that I moved on from that (for years and years). Finally, on the whole CR versus EBRD matter, I'd like to make it perfectly clear that, while I had authored the WP:CRP supplementary page as a point of reference (at the request of Coffee), I was never involved in the formulation of it as a sanction. I actually don't even know how it came about, so if anyone does, please enlighten me. Now, imagine if the Committee was, somehow, prompted to take a close look into the whole CR versus EBRD realm of sanctions that it, itself, authorizes? Ooh, what do you say, incoming Committee? Kitty nudge? El_C 19:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure why it took me this long (pride? hurt feelings?) —and first and foremost, I apologize to both Mandruss and Objective3000, for this lengthy delay, which reflects poorly on me— but I have now added an addendum to the log entry (diff), which, as mentioned there, I hope will serve to quell any further tension. As I also note in this addendum, if there is anything else I can say or do to better facilitate peace and harmony, please do not hesitate to let me know. Thanks, everyone, for all your patience, and sorry that my response to this challenge has been less than ideal. El_C 19:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
This was extremely blatant tag-team editing, and I don't think a threat of retirement is a good reason to revoke the justified note they were "cautioned against circumventing edit restrictions". power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I fail to see how such a warning could be NOT a blemish on one's record. But who knows, here where up is down, yellow is purple, and a lone admin can issue a logged warning against serious opposition from both admins and non, while citing nothing written but an obscure essay. I'm not smart enough to understand this. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
[insert one sleep period]
I think a good unwritten rule would be: When an editor has established a long history of conscientious good faith behavior, they have earned the benefit of the doubt and should not receive a sanction for a good faith mistake. Not even a logged warning. Such contributors should not be victims of the crazy, convoluted body of scattered, incohesive rules that our revered system of crowdsourced self-governance created and has proven utterly incapable of addressing. Sanctions should be reserved for bad faith, since they affect the editor's reputation and may contribute to future sanctions in a sort of snowball effect. This should be intuitive to any experienced editor possessing any sense of fairness.
A logged warning clearly implies fault, and there is no fault in a human mistake. A logged warning should not be a mechanism for clarification, as it has been used by El_C in this case. If the rules prevented El_C from filing an ARCA request, the rules seriously need changing. If ARCA had provided clarification for future reference without implying fault on O3000's part, I don't think he would have retired.
The appropriate action at this stage is:
―Mandruss ☎ 14:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
@Jeppiz: Oh boy.
Mandruss had started to feel 'above the law'Unsupported by evidence or other editors (except perhaps Tataral, and he hasn't said that).
I had notified Mandruss about improper talk page behaviourYou took a remarkably one-sided view of that little hatting skirmish. SPECIFICO was equally at fault there, and he acted first, but you "notified" only me. I've given this some thought and concluded that my recent well-founded public criticism of you here likely earned me a place on your shit list that caused you to read that situation in SPECIFICO's favor, giving him a pass. When I correctly informed you about your misuse of a warning template,[141] I expect that only moved me higher on your list and exacerbated the situation. I must be more careful about whose toes I correctly step on. Happy to discuss that with you at my UTP, but I don't think this is the time or place to dissect that "incident" further.
going against discretionary sanctions just because they felt they could- Clear misrepresentation, again calling into question your overall objectivity in the matter. I "went against discretionary sanctions" because I didn't understand how they applied in that case, and I think I've made this abundantly clear. I did not consciously go against discretionary sanctions, nor would I. Nobody is more careful about following the rules, and I make a concerted effort to understand them.
ignoring two different users' appeal to self-revertRight, neither of whom cited the passage from WP:EW that El_C quoted in the AE complaint. Editors often get such "appeal to self-revert" wrong. I looked at the both the content of the criticisms and the usernames of the editors making them, and I made a judgment call that I was more likely right than wrong, which turned out to be incorrect, and I decided to send this to AE. I did not "dare" you to go to AE. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that ultimately turning out to be wrong does not prove bad faith, and Mandruss's bad faith is how you have spun this entire episode.
the impression of feeling that normal rules don't apply to themAll things considered, an entirely unjustified and unfair assessment in my opinion.
(I recognize in good faith that Mandruss may only be talking about Objective3000, not themselves)- Exactly, and that's crystal clear given that I requested a removal of O3000's warning, not mine.
I don't get how you felt it was appropriate to use this ARCA request about O3000's warning to take further swipes at me. I appreciate the compliments sprinkled throughout your distortions and unfounded criticisms, but that doesn't excuse them in my view. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:21, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
SPECIFICO commented about Awilley: ...and given Awilley's history of supervoting in various venues and with respect to various colleagues, I just think the appearance is obvious to those familiar with his history.
I can't let that go without comment. First, I'm "familiar with his history" and do not share SPECIFICO's view. And SPECIFICO has a habit of asserting widespread support for his views and presuming to speak for others to bolster his arguments. I have asked him on at least three separate occasions, spanning perhaps three years, to speak only for himself. I would ask him to modify his comment accordingly; if he declines to do so, I trust that readers will take that part of his comment for what it is. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:11, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Except in cases where it doesn't really matter (this was not such a case), I will never self-revert merely because an editor demands that I do so, unless they are one of the few editors high enough on my respect list that I would defer to their judgment. I'm more than capable of deference, but not with just any editor. Or any two editors. It's not a vote, and two editors can easily be wrong at the same time, especially when you consider that ulterior motives are sometimes present in these things. I doubt Jeppiz would blindly comply with a demand to self-revert if it didn't seem like a legitimate demand to Jeppiz. I doubt many competent editors would, particularly at that article. There is more at stake at that article than "going along to get along".
Other editors will need to show me something that makes it clear I'm in violation of the rules; that was not done until we got to AE, and not done by Jeppiz.
In my mind, my error was failing to have mastered the rules, not failing to blindly submit to the demand of two random editors. I don't expect my mind to be changed on that.
As I said at AE and here, I won't dispute my warning. But I will not have my integrity impugned without evidence. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:19, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
@Levivich: you should be considering the viewpoints of all editors
– I did consider these editors' viewpoints. As I said above, I looked at the both the content of the criticisms and the usernames of the editors making them, and I made a judgment call that I was more likely right than wrong, which turned out to be incorrect, and I decided to send this to AE.
Considering viewpoints does not mean blindly complying when you disagree with them. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:15, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm disappointed and alarmed at Jeppiz's continued attacks and failure to fairly evaluate what went on at my UTP. It's right here for anyone to review. I responded to the initial demand, If you are suggesting that this edit and this edit are the same, I suggest you take a closer look. They differ by 2,219 bytes if I'm not mistaken.
It's eminently clear from that comment that I was under the impression that the edits needed to be the same content to be a violation. (Is Jeppiz suggesting that I was feigning ignorance at that point? For what purpose?) The constructive response would've been something like what El_C said at AE: reverts need not be "identical" to count as such. WP:EW is quite clear on this:
Nothing like that was said at my UTP; if it had been, I would have immediately self-reverted. Instead, off we went to AE. Again, Jeppiz is claiming that being shown to be wrong at AE shows bad faith before AE. That is simply wrong on multiple levels, including logic and ethics, and I will NEVER accept it. If the community feels that means I should be banned from Donald Trump, fine, and then I'll be considering my own retirement even more seriously than I ever have in the past. Perhaps it's time to finally put this madness behind me and find a more rewarding hobby. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, on a single page within a 24-hour period
(bold is my emphasis).
@SPECIFICO: I feel he also has a serious WP:OWN ownership attitude that has been very counterproductive and obstructive.
I feel that's a serious accusation and should not be made in support of a sanction proposal without evidence. If that's allowed, I have some feelings about you that might warrant a sanction. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: And in case it wasn't obvious, I'm respectfully asking you to strike. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:33, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
William Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 1 ―Mandruss ☎ 21:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
I had commented at the WP:AE case as an uninvolved admin and had made clear my distaste for the request for a sanction. El_C was technically correct but it is very undesirable to sanction people (yes, a logged warning is a sanction) when the incident is trivial and involves an issue where they are right. Their opponents managed to press the right buttons but they were blatantly wrong regarding what should happen in the article (they were padding the lead with not-news violations, no analysis by secondary sources, and nothing in the body of the article). Objective3000 made an honest statement (that Mandruss should self-revert to remove the technical problem so Objective3000 could repeat their edit)—that reflects how all topics under discretionary sanctions are handled. The rules of the game are known by all the participants and Objective3000's only mistake was to speak out loud. Furthermore, Objective3000 made a comment about their intentions whereas the issue (tag teaming) had already been implemented by their opponents—opponent 1 had inserted the padding; Mandruss reverted it; opponent 2 repeated the first edit after cutting out some of the excess. Johnuniq (talk) 03:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Q: Does Awilley actually have standing to file this amendment request? I thought that third-party appeals were not allowed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
This ARCA seems to be out of process? WP:AC/DS#sanctions.appeals: Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction.
This is not a new issue. A little less than a year ago, O3000's "tag teaming" with other editors (not Mandruss) was raised in an AE report (against another editor: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive261#SashiRolls, see, e.g., my statement and Pudeo's and also discussion on Pudeo's talk page at User talk:Pudeo#Personal attack). (I believe there were other related discussions but I don't remember where they are.) It was clear to me from those discussions that O3000 and others did not believe that planned or coordinated reverting (I'm not sure how else to phrase it) was tag team editing or a policy violation. I think O3000 left those discussions with the belief that his understanding of policy w/r/t "tag teaming" was correct—a reasonable belief given that nobody was sanctioned for it. I think this might help explain why O3000 would think there was nothing wrong with his actions and why he's taking this so hard.
So, although this does appear to be a third-party appeal, it might help prevent this sort of misunderstanding from happening in the future if Arbcom, or somebody, clarified "tag teaming" and edit warring policy, e.g. whether "self-revert and I'll revert" is OK or not. I'll also echo that O3000 wasn't the only editor who repeated another editor's edits: there is also the editor who reinstated a reverted bold edit. I think it's also an open question whether reinstating-after-revert is "tag teaming" (even when there isn't explicit on-wiki coordination).
These questions matter for any page under 1RR (and frankly are unevenly enforced by admins), so Arbcom could help by clarifying what is and is not "tag teaming" at least for DS 1RR restrictions. Levivich harass/hound 09:13, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I think O3000 left those discussions with the belief that his understanding of policy w/r/t "tag teaming" was correct—a reasonable belief given that nobody was sanctioned for it.Levivich harass/hound 17:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Evidence presented seems to clearly indicate that this was tag teaming on one of our most viewed pages, a BLP to boot and the warning applied was not only of the most gentle of ones, but also one of the most necessary, considering the BLP in question in particular.--MONGO (talk) 09:36, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Not really sure what Awilley hopes to accomplish by dragging my earnest comment in the mud and misattributing my meaning [143] but since he had the decency to ping. Not really sure why Awilley even bothered to bring my comment up...nobody gives a rats arse what I think anyway. Did I notice they removed a questionable edit...yes, I did indeed. Does that grant them a free pass or special consideration/exemption? In my opinion, No. Is this because this is a prominent BLP...maybe. So what? Everyone have a group hug and sing kumbaya now.--MONGO (talk) 20:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
As the editor who made the original enforcement request, I wish to acknowledge both El_C and Awilley for their thoughtful contributions. I felt El C made a balanced call in issuing a warning but no block to Mandruss and Objective3000. I also think Awilley has made a balanced request that the warning stays for Mandruss but it dropped for Objective3000. It's not for me to comment on that decision. My concern when filing the request was that Mandruss had started to feel 'above the law', I wish to emphasize that Mandruss has made a positive contribution to Wikipedia and I wish they continue their good work. However, my request wasn't based on a single incident. The day before the policy violation, I had notified Mandruss about improper talk page behaviour for (admittedly) hatting a talk page comment by a third user [144] just because a different user had hatted theirs; I hoped a UTP discussion would be enough.
The day after, when Mandruss ignored the discretionary sanctions, I again took it to their talk page, as did a third user. Mandruss themselves more or less challenged us to go to AE ("I am not going to self-revert. With great difficulty I have stopped short of 3RR vio. If you wish to file at AE, do as you must. One of us would learn something, and learning is never a bad thing.") [145]. This combination of hatting a third user just because they felt they could, going against discretionary sanctions just because they felt they could, ignoring two different users' appeal to self-revert and even daring us to go to AE combined to give the impression of feeling that normal rules don't apply to them. When I see Mandruss arguing here (I recognize in good faith that Mandruss may only be talking about Objective3000, not themselves) "When an editor has established a long history of conscientious good faith behaviour, they have earned the benefit of the doubt and should not receive a sanction for a good faith mistake. Not even a logged warning.", I see the same problem that led me to file the request, the belief that 'some editors are more equal than others'.
Mandruss is a diligent editor whose net contribution is overwhelmingly positive; I hope that they stay. On a general level, I don't believe in special treatment and think the policy Mandruss suggests of letting more experienced editors off for the same behaviour that newcomers would be punished for would set a bad precedent with wider implications than this case. Jeppiz (talk) 16:04, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors will need to show me something that makes it clear I'm in violation of the rules; that was not done until we got to AE, and not done by Jeppiz.This is not true; in my effort to solve the situation at Mandruss TP, I explicitly referred to the rules, even quoted the discretionary sanctions [146]. I won't stand for Mandruss trying to claim something else. Mandruss's entire last contribution [147] pushes the limits of WP:AGF when they claim they were unaware. Accepting that would require overlooking that:
There have been many discussions in scattered venues about the need to reevaluate and reform DS and enforcement in American Politics. A tiny fraction of our Admin corps volunteer their time and attention and emotional involvement to the effort. The burden on them, including the ones involved in this case, is beyond what anyone could reasonably be expected to fulfil in a consistent and effective manner. So along with lots of good work, we also have inconsistencies, errors, and omissions.
As has been acknowledged, this appeal is out of process. That's not a good thing except in an urgent situation unlike this one. I hope and expect that Arbcom will address the growing concern about DS and enforcement in general by initiating an orderly and systematic review and a discussion of its options to improve the entire system.
The nature of DS is that it's discretionary. El C, as one of the most active volunteers in the area, makes lots of good faith judgments nearly continually, and I see nothing to be gained by validating Awilley's second guess of an action that was clearly within El C's authority. For the avoidance of doubt, if Mandruss had done the right thing and self-reverted when asked, there were several editors, including myself, who (without any prompting) would have independently removed the offending content. Despite that, to repeat, this "appeal" is out of process and should be declined. It's further complicated by Awilley's possibly animus toward El C, who was one of the Admins and experienced editors who opposed Awilley's unilateral replacement of "consensus required" with his bespoke "24-hour BRD" sanction. Not to accuse Awilley of such motivation, but the background should have been disclosed in this filing. SPECIFICO talk 17:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
@El C: I do not think anyone would suggest that you resent Awilley's actions. The appearance of animus would be in the other direction only. It is more than unusual to ask Arbcom to overturn so routine a discretionary action, and given Awilley's history of supervoting in various venues and with respect to various colleagues, I just think the appearance is obvious to those familiar with his history. Best practices is to avoid any such possible appearance -- and again, the ARCA request can be considered solely on its merits. Thanks for your note. I have never seen you personalize or improperly involve yourself in any Admin action. SPECIFICO talk 19:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
O3000 has now told us that Awilley's premise for this thread Statement by Awilley - This incident is so inconsequential that normally I would ignore it, but as one of the parties has found it unfair enough to retire
was based on an unwarranted inference unrelated to what 03000 actually posted on his talk page. So I hope this extraordinary un-warning request can be set aside. The AE warning does nothing to diminish O3000's reputation or his excellent, collaborative editorial contributions, and it was clearly explained by El C and within his discretion.
I am distressed to see Mandruss' recent remarks here. Mandruss is by far the most active editor on the Donald Trump article and talk pages, at 22% of article and 27% of article talk page participation. Those are staggering figures of concentration for so active and widely edited pages. He has done lots of useful work -- more on housekeeping than article content, IMO, which is not his forte. He knows I appreciate his contributions, even to the extent that I urged him to run for Arbcom last fall. However, I feel he also has a serious WP:OWN ownership attitude that has been very counterproductive and obstructive. His views often prevail out of his sheer persistence and willingness to pursue his views to the point that others disengage. He said on his talk page that he's willing to learn from the experience of this AE complaint, and I think a page block of a month or so might help give him the breathing room to return refreshed and ready to collaborate. SPECIFICO talk 18:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
When I posted OWN above, I felt -- evidently incorrectly -- that Mandruss's statements and behavior documented in this ARCA matter supported my interpretation that he behaves as if from a privileged position in that article of the kind referened in OWN. But I hear several editors telling me I should have provided diffs in my section, so I'll provide a few I can quickly locate. In this AE matter, the problem was created bu Mandruss' refusal to self-revert after two editors brought his violation to his attention. As he says in his section on this page, Mandruss feels he can choose to deprecate the concerns of editors he doesn't know and respect, to wit the two who informed him of his violation. I think that's not our standard. Is the dominant editor on a page privileged to reject non-preferred editors out of hand? Then we have Mandruss' trying to tell other experienced editors what to do, e.g. here, following @User:Valjean to his talk page with what I consider an inappropriate tone of privilege and an expectation of control. There are the recent discussions of "coup attempt. Note that this thread does not concern placing such text in the lead, which was the subject of a November discussion, and that it was about an edit and reference that pre-dated the attack on the Capitol. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Donald_Trump#Coup_d'etat_attempt this thread, including the hatted portion. In an unrelated discussion, both as to placement RS verification and WEIGHT, there had been previous attempts to put "coup" in the lead and back in November. See Mandruss in this thread with different sourcing and facts, about content that I considered UNDUE at the time.
So what I see here is an editor who is the most active presence on the page, who has not taken the responsibility to ensure he understands the page restrictions. And in the recent "coup d'etat" discussion in the first link above, he reverts it citing a nonexistent consensus to omit, presumably based on the inconclusive lead text discussion from months ago, giving no substantive reason other than his personal assertion of "consensus". He then continues to oppose the edit at some length before finally coming to my talk page and asking how he can see the cited Washington Post article, becuase he doesn't have access. It's up to him whether a WaPo subscription is worth the $26, but it's remarkable he would feel entitled to oppose text related to sourcing he has not seen. I question whether anyone can be highly active and opinionated at the AP articles without comprehensive media access across the spectrum.
So again: To me, the tone and substance of Mandruss' behavior as documented at AE and in his words on this page were, combined with his edit stats, supporting my view that he acts from a sense of privilege that I called OWN. I've provided the above in response to reactions that my view was evidence free. I may or may not be correct, but I abhor ASPERSIONS and I hope I've at least corrected that, if not convinced anyone on the merits. SPECIFICO talk 23:36, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Warnings are minimal, not a biggy to sweat over. Regardless, this case exemplifies why ArbCom needs to revoke DS/AE. I'm not here to criticize any of the actions taken by individual admins or arbs; rather, I would like for ArbCom to look closer at the DS/AE monster that we've had to deal with in recent years. If behavioral disruption was the only issue, a simple admin action would have resolved the problem. If another admin felt the remedy was too severe or undeserved, then a discussion between the two would have likely led to a compromise instead of wasting valuable time here making this into a complicated case. I'm also not taking a position relative to any of the named editors in this case. I admit that I am biased against DS/AE because of what I perceive to be abuse/POV creep and what has happened to me - not that it has happened in this case. Houston, we have a problem. Atsme 💬 📧 17:40, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
It's baffling that this is even up for re-discussion. The on-Wiki communications between the two editors and reversions in tandem were specifically meant to do a technical end run around WP:DS limits on reversions. Had any other user engaged in this behavior, it would've led to a sanction, but favoritism and bias lead not only to a ridiculously soft warning at WP:AE, but admins actively trying to overturn even that empty warning. The standards for conduct on Wikipedia are slipping towards being entirely meaningless for a small circle of editors, including Objective3000 and Mandruss, who've been editing for a sufficient period of time are friendly with the right parties. These political games and bending of the rules are what turns people away from the site. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 21:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Against my better judgment, I'm editing ARCA for the first time, not because I have a strong opinion about this particular case but because I've been thinking about sock/meat puppetry a lot lately and find the way our WP:MEAT policy is being interpreted here curious.
My understanding of tag teaming, which is a variety of meat puppetry, is that it's not when one person who already edits an article in good faith tries to deescalate a situation by offering to take ownership of an edit (one which they may well have made anyway) from someone else who already edits the article in good faith.
If Mandruss went to the talk page instead of editing again and said "this edit should be reverted because XYZ, but I can't," and O3000 saw that and said "ok, I'll do it," would we still be talking about meat puppetry? It seems like standard coordination on a talk page -- the sort that's especially necessary when there are article-level restrictions. If the difference has to do only with the way O3000 phrased it rather than any practical or intentional difference, I'm not sure that's a road we want to go down. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:48, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree in thinking that O3000 was acting in good faith here. Let's face it, if another editor had reverted Mandruss's edit and O3000 had reverted back, there would be no issue here. The really ironic thing is that, looking above, there are some more right-leaning editors criticising O3000 here despite the fact that they removed excessive negative information from the lead of Trump's article. If I was a cynic, I'd say that they're basing their comments on who did the reverting rather than the actual circumstances and specific content. Black Kite (talk) 22:47, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
@CaptainEek: Your comment implies that O3000 by posting a "retired" template 'threw a fit' and 'threw his toys out of the pram' (venerable Wikipedia clichés that do no credit to your sense of style). That's shameful in my opinion. If you didn't intend that implication, please take more care when you write.
@El C: You say "As for it constituting a "blemish" on their record — all Objective3000 would have to do if someone were to try to use it against them would be to quote me saying that it wasn't intended as such. Which is why I said it, in the 1st place.
" It would be a lot more useful to say it in the log, IMO. Really a lot. I know the log entry is already long, but you could have said it instead of "Sorry for the unusual length of this log entry", because, you know, what use is that?
The amount of assumption of bad faith towards Mandruss, O3000, El C, admins in general, and the entirety of Wikipedia in Wikieditor19920's comment above leaves a bad taste. Everybody can comment here, no doubt, and so we get some low-water marks. Unless an arb or clerk feels like drawing the line somewhere? Bishonen | tålk 23:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC).
This is an excellent illustration of the dilemmas that will be produced by any system that provides a first-mover (or second-mover) advantage. DS is the worst of them, but even 3RR can do that, and even our basic BRD procedure. The fairness of these systems depends upon preventing one contributor maneuvering to put the other at the wrong end of the advantage. At present any POV editor who realizes how they work can sometimes manage to do that, unless up against an equally clever opponent. Ensuring that the encyclopedia has NPOV content should not be a game of this sort. DGG ( talk ) 17:45, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Oh for <insert deity here>'s sake, people, it was a warning! warning: NOUN 1: statement or event that indicates a possible or impending danger, problem, or other unpleasant situation.
Not a sanction nor a block nor a ban. Nothing more than a: "Please don't do this again." There is no reason to treat this as the wiki-Trial of the Century and throw any of these accusations and animosities around. I wonder if this is our version of the Bike Shed Principle; we know we can't personally do much about those <insert collective insult here> in Washington/ Sacramento/ Canberra/ wherever but we can be damned sure we'll treat the project as if lives depended on our edits. Reality check: Nobody's life depends on our edits. That editors are taking them as seriously as this discussion does is way out of whack with the reality we see around us. Chill. Go outside. Take a breath. Nobody's reputation was permanently besmirched before this mess began and it shouldn't be now. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
This is one of the more trivial "sanctions" I've seen in AP2 enforcement, especially for what is a clear cut DS violation. The action seems well within El_C's discretion especially given the comments of the other commenting administrators. I and others have long called for a rework of the restrictions in AP2, but until that happens they ought to be enforced evenly. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:05, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
I've been thinking about the first paragraph of Bishonen's statement above, and I agree with what she said there. In this ARCA, there is no serious claim that O3000 is a long-term abuser who has tried the community's patience one time too many. The range of opinions goes approximately from it having been something for which a warning was justified, to it having been something where the warning should be vacated, but in any case there is a consensus that overall O3000 has been a valued member of the community. As such, CaptainEek, I'm troubled by your language about fit throwing and toys from a pram. Although I don't want to blow it out of proportion, I would ask that you reconsider the way that you said it. Wikipedia is suffering from a coarsening of the language that editors use when speaking of one another, and from a lack of sensitivity to when an editor is genuinely and in good faith upset. I would hope that Arbitrators would seek to set a good example. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:03, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
The word "uprecedented" is often overused, but I think it applies to the current environment. People are acting in good faith, with a perceived urgency that is heightened by a political environment for which we have no templates, no past experience.
I believe the correct response here is that everybody was doing their best, and there should be no indelible consequences for any of it. IMO Newyorkbrad is exactly correct, and we should be very careful right now not to do things with lasting consequences for long-term productive members of the community who are clearly acting in good faith.
To err is human and to attribute malice virtually inescapable when it's almost impossible not to have an opinion on the content itself, as here. I am taking time out because I have PTSD and find the present real world situation almost impossible to handle, but I want to add my no-doubt superfluous $0.02 in support of an editor with whom I often disagree but whose good faith I have never had cause to doubt. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:57, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction.(Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures § Standard provision: appeals and modifications) In this case, and in other cases where an uninvolved administrator at AE who voiced disagreement with the action taken brings us an ARCA appeal, I am inclined to disregard this provision and consider the third-party appeal. I'm willing to formalize this into our procedures if need be, but I'd prefer to wait for broader DS reform. Because this appeal was not brought by Objective3000, if we decline this appeal, the provision that "further substantive review at any forum is barred" should not apply.Objective3000 did not violate the restriction was written. However, AMPOL is a DS area, and on the whole, it was not an abuse of administrative discretion to conclude that coordination to circumvent a 1RR restriction (even if well-intentioned) is inappropriate.Previous committee decisions at ARCA have established that this committee will generally only reverse sanctions for abuse of administrative discretion, or something at that approximate level of review, absent exceptional circumstances. This is necessary because AE is designed to reduce the load on this committee – imagine if every AE sanction was appealed here – and so ArbCom acts mostly as a safety valve, not as a venue of first resort. Therefore, absent exceptional circumstances, we should not overturn this warning.Administrators should not act contrary to a clear consensus of their colleagues at AE. I don't know if the consensus in this case was clearly against the warning – a warning itself is a very light sanction. (According to Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures § Dismissing an enforcement request, a warning is actually not a sanction; it counts as "no action".) Overall, I don't know where I come down on this appeal. If El C downgraded this to "advice" ("Objective3000 is advised to ...") I would decline this appeal for sure. Right now, I'm inclined to decline this appeal without prejudice towards an appeal at AE or AN, but of course that strikes me as grossly excessive bureaucracy. It may be a good push to make explicit in our procedures that appeals to ArbCom via ARCA are generally assessed deferentially to the enforcing administrator (to reduce the number of appeals that are unfortunately resolved on procedural grounds), and that appeals from sanctions imposed at AE can still be appealed at AE (especially if administrators at AE were opposed to the original sanction). Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Interstellarity at 19:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
It's been over five years since the ammendment to set sanctions on post-1932 American politics went in place. When we look at historical events from a distant future, we can get a better idea on how the event affected history. I am not requesting to repeal these sanctions, I am requesting that the sanction be lowered to something like 1944. It is easier to write an article on a president such as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln then someone like Donald Trump or Joe Biden because the news can be too biased to get the big picture. I imagine the news was also biased back then, but we have modern historical evaluations on the event that help us to write better articles. That's how I feel about this in a nutshell. Interstellarity (talk) 19:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
1932 really is still the beginning of contemporary US politics. It is when FDR was first elected, and FDR's policy approaches are still a political battleground in the present day. William Leuchtenburg's book In the Shadow of FDR traces FDR's influence through all the subsequent US presidents up to Obama (in the 2009 edition). I read it for a school requirement and found it enlightening. If there is good cause to restrict someone from editing about post-FDR US politics, they probably shouldn't be editing about the FDR era either. The stuff that happened then is still contentious in today's partisan battlegrounds. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 13:43, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
I think any cutoff year you choose will potentially be debatable. But is the current 1932 cutoff already causing problems that need to be addressed? If so, this request would be more compelling with evidence and examples of those problems. Geogene (talk) 18:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't think I've ever processed an AP2 dispute or sanction where the locus of dispute was something that happened between 1932 and 1944 (indeed the vast majority are centred on current issues). That's not to say they don't exist, but I think I'd like to see the diffs before changing the cutoff date. Black Kite (talk) 19:07, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Echoing Black Kite to an extent, I'm eager to see what are the loci of dispute now, but I'll go further. This is incredibly broad brush and doesn't feel like a good measure at all. Having briefly looked into the morass of the case that prompted it, I'm wondering if Arbcom at the time were both rather exasperated and reluctant to issue a huge swathe of personal sanctions. Anyway, that's speculation. More to the point, I feel this measure is bad for Wikipedia. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 19:14, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
All sanctions (theoretically) must be recorded in the log at WP:ACDSLOG. For 2020, I see there only two articles which relate to something else than post-1990 politics: Frank Rizzo which I have protected myself (and this is the only time I remember involving AP2 for not contemporary politics, and I am not shy in imposing AE sanctions), and Three Red Banners which is probably there in error (I do not see how it is related to AP2). In any case, both articles are post-1950.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:33, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
I support changing this, to some date not after 1992. From a quick glance, with the one exception Ymblanter noted, the oldest topic I found discussed in the sanctions log was Vince Foster. The vast majority of American Politics issues relate to current events, but the Clintons are still regularly the subject of contentious discussion. There was a preference for a wide buffer region in the original imposition of AP2 to avoid doubt in marginal cases; I think either 1960 or 1980 would be reasonable choices. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
The difference between starting in 1932 and starting in 1944 is that the period from 1932 to 1944 featured FDR and the New Deal, isolationism regarding involvement in World War II, the attempt at Supreme Court packing, the American Nazi movement and the anti-Nazi boycotts -- all of which have tendrils which connect them to current American politics. Is MAGA isolationism re-born? Will the Democrats attempt to counter Trump's Supreme Court nominations by packing the court? Is the alt-right the re-birth of an American fascist movement? What do we do about the newly powerful populist movement in Europe? How involved should the US government be in controlling the effects of capitalism? These questions are all intimately connected to what happened from 1932 to 1944, which argues against changing the starting point. 1932 does not seem to me to be an arbitrary choice, but the actual beginning of modern American politics. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:56, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm concerned by people stating that Interstellarity should be providing cases of 1932-1944 that this clarification would resolve. Quite the opposite - everyone else should be being required to provide cases that demonstrate that that set of years should also be covered by DS. It's supposed to cover the minimum possible to avoid issues. I actually think a good case could be made for moving it up to, say, the start of the Vietnam war, and if we're happy to have a discussion on that, that's great, but for the meantime, I'm a strong supporter. Nosebagbear (talk) 11:29, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
I think everyone is agreed that the cutoff of 1932 is arbitrary and that any year that the ArbCom of the time picked would necessarily be arbitrary. Any other date would also be arbitrary but need not be equally arbitrary; i.e., there may be less arbitrary dates available. It is clear from the AP2 Proposed Decision that the ArbCom of the time picked 1932 for no there reason than it was somewhere between the extremes of 1980 (too recent) and all of American history (too far back). If anything, this is a good demonstration of how the Goldilocks principle can guide rational people to suboptimal results. Neither the AP nor the AP2 cases involved anything that reached anywhere near as far back as 1932 and Ymblanter and power~enwiki have already demonstrated that the topics that AP2 sanctions have been invoked for are also recent. Beyond My Ken makes a cogent argument that there is ideological continuity of issues from the Roosevelt presidency era to issues of great controversy today but that is not a reason to keep the 1932 date. If we were to accept the continuity of ideologies argument, then the same issues that FDR faced were faced in recognizable form by his cousin Theodore and that these issues have ideological continuity all the way back to Jacksonian democracy and even to Jeffersonianism and Federalism. The committee implicitly rejected this approach since that would have turned the AP2 discretionary sanctions into American History discretionary sanctions. I think that any argument to keep the 1932 cutoff has to substantiate 1932-present as the narrowest possible range to prevent significant disruption. The record at hand does not present any evidence of this being the case. If anything, it shows that 1932 is far too broad and that this violates the principle that sanctions and restrictions should allow the greatest freedom of editing. WP:5P3 still has some purpose here, after all. The ArbCom of the time picked 1932 not through detailed inquiry of the best cutoff but through what seems like expediency and abundance of caution. The ArbCom of today has the benefit of a record that shows the 1932 date was overbroad and can pick a date that better matches the evidence shown. Looking through the sanctions log for this year and last, it is difficult to find anything even post-2000, never mind after the 1980 date the original ArbCom felt was too recent. Please consider moving the date forward significantly, to at least 1988 (the George H. W. Bush v. Michael Dukakis presidential election). This date would be a better fit for the evidence of disruption that is available and also match BMK's ideological continuity of issues argument while being closer to the idealized least restrictive option and therefore be less arbitrary than 1932. Thank you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:46, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
At the implicit invitation of Barkeep49's request for better data and because I'm seeing dates picked based on what looks like speculation of what might or could happen, I thought it necessary to present what has happened under the current regime. Debates, however fierce, in the wider society that are not directly reflected in on-wiki disruption should not be the basis for sanctions. Therefore, the record of sanctions was searched for on-wiki disruption and correlated to the time period that the disruption was directly linked to.
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Methodology[edit]The Arbitration enforcement log was examined for blocks, bans, and other editor sanctions placed by administrators from 2016 to 2020 under the authority of the discretionary sanctions authorized by the Arbitration Committee as a result of the American Politics 2 arbitration case. Only restrictions placed on editors were counted, not those on articles. Each sanction as a separate action is counted separately. If an editor was given an edit restriction or topic ban, then violated that and was blocked, then returned and violated it again and was banned, those three separate events are are counted three times. If an editor was blocked or topic banned for violating AP2 restrictions based on multiple edits reported to WP:AE (including, in one notable case, 71 edits) then that one event is counted once. Community bans are not counted, even if they were related to American politics articles, because those actions are taken under the community's authority and not the committee's. ArbCom bans were included if explicitly invoked under the American Politics 2 case or subsequent motions. Warnings are not counted as sanctions, even if the DS was invoked as a basis for the warning, because warnings do not have the effect of restricting edits through the wiki software. Probations or other irregular and custom sanctions are treated as warnings and so also not counted for the same reason. Topic bans lifted upon appeal are not counted as sanctions. Topic bans that resulted in a block but which were lifted on appeal were counted as a sanction if the block took place before the ban was lifted. There were a small number of users blocked, unblocked, and reblocked under these sanctions. If the individual blocks were triggered by different edits or there were "new" edits that were significant evidence for further sanctions, then those were considered separate events. Rejected appeals are not counted as separate sanctions. The time periods are divided by Presidential administration to break the 88 year time period covered by these discretionary sanctions into comprehensible time periods. The time period a sanction was assigned to is based on the edit or edits triggering sanctions. This results the an apparent anomaly that edits related to, e.g., Trump's 2016 presidential election campaign are counted under the "Obama" row and not the "Trump" row. This is inevitable given that each election cycle lasts at least 2 years and there are multiple contestants. Unless clearly otherwise indicated, edits concerning events that took place during the short January lame duck period were counted as sanctions under the following administration for clarity and because politics during this time period are almost entirely concerned with the incoming presidency and not the outgoing one. FDR's presidency was divided into pre-war and war years due to its length and the amendment request above. Edits triggering sanctions that were to articles not about events (e.g., biographical articles, places, etc.) were treated as follows: If there was a source associated with the edit (either adding or removing) then the date of that source was used to categorize the edit. If the edit was not linked to a source or the source did not have a date then any identifiable event that the edit might have been connected to (e.g., the arrest of a person) was used to categorize the edit. If there was no dated source or identifiable event, then the date of the edit was used to categorize the edit on the basis that edits on political topics are more likely to be triggered by contemporary media coverage than historical coverage. The data was compiled in a Google Sheets document available here. Results[edit]The editing restrictions, blocks, and bans placed under AP2 restrictions since 2016 greatly favor the 2016-present time period and there is almost no record of AP2 sanctions for events prior to 1993.
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Of the total 248 discretionary sanctions placed in the 4 years since they were authorized under the current ArbCom remedies , 240 or 96.7% were for edits concerning events after 2016. The almost complete lack of sanctions for events in the time period from 1932 to 1988 shows that the current remedies are not currently narrowly-tailored to the actual disruption experienced on this site. Speculation that sanctions need to encompass the period before 1988 are not supported by the evidence of disruption reported. Although the methodology is believed sound, discrepancies would not change that the evidence is very clear. Even if there were massive errors in time period categorization, the evidence of disruption is clustered is so tightly to time periods after 2009 that there can be no rational argument that sanctions have been invoked to curtail actual disruption for fully 86% of the time period currently covered by the DS regime. Although page protections and similar page-level invocations of the authority granted under AP2 was not explicitly tallied, cursory investigation did not disclose results which differed significantly from the results of the editor-level sanctions and so has not been worth the time to compile. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:44, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I have to admit some confusion regarding the motions below. From my reading, it appears that two almost-exclusive motions have possibly passed, which probably means I'm interpreting the preferential votes incorrectly. Perhaps a simple form of ranked preference voting could be added? e.g., 4,3,1,2 (meaning first preference is for the 4th motion below, etc...) (This example isn't my preference or a suggestion, I just rolled a D4. Yes, I'm that geeky). I think if I'm confused, I might not be the only one. Thanks in advance. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
I was one of the drafting arbs for this case and can answer what was going through our heads at the time. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 20:41, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
In short, I concur with Nosebagbear on burden, and with so many others here in having concerns about how sweeping these DS have been. In detail, I think this should be narrowed to 1960 onward (so it starts with JFK's presidential election campaign – there's always going to be fringe conspiracy-theory nonsense about JFK), or to an even later date, maybe starting with 1988 (George H. W. Bush's campaign), but start no later than 1992 (Bill Clinton; the Clintons are still the subject of a lot of fringe conspiracy-theory nonsense themselves). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:58, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
I wouldn't comment, but some of the arb comments below seem like speculation to me. Rather than guess what years are troublesome, why not look at WP:AELOG? There's years of knowledge of how DS is actually used (minus the intimidation of templates) in that log - practically everything one needs not just for larger DS reform, but also to make evidence-based determinations in small requests like this.
At a skim, I see no page restrictions based inherently on 20th century politics. Too lazy to check the editor sanctions but I'm guessing same applies there. 1980s or even up to the Clinton era makes sense to me. It can always be changed back if this turns out to have been too restrictive. Guerillero was there a particular reason for 1932? The PD doesn't give much insight. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:29, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I am not seeing any problem with 1932. If there is no disruption between 1932 and, say, 1960, then there will be no enforcement. So why take an arrow out of Admins' quiver for 1932-1960 in case it's ever needed? Bigger picture I am not convinced the current setup is worth the trouble in American Politics. Arbcom principles are basically WP policy that Admins can enforce regardless of DS. The page restrictions in AP add little or nothing. SPECIFICO talk 00:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Katie, on 1933ff articles with no problem, I don't see that there are page restrictions or extra notices. For example, [151] SPECIFICO talk 15:45, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
To get to this noticeboard and create this much discussion; seems to me that a serious problem with the current arbitrary date being any more problematic than a new arbitrary date need be detailed. And, with all due respect to DGG, I won’t believe that Jan. 20 will mark a milestone in ending the current political millstones until that occurs. O3000 (talk) 01:38, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I'd support 1992 per Egg's data. "Anybody can edit"/"not a bureaucracy" should be the default position. Any restrictions on that should be only as broad as necessary. The data shows that before 1992 is not necessary, as there has only been one case prior to 1992, out of 248 total. Levivich harass/hound 03:17, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
It would be better for the committee to decide this here and now by motion than to take up the editor time required for an RFC. If the range of options are 1960, 1980, or 1992, I submit that it won't make a big difference which date the committee picks. If the community disagrees with the committee's decision, someone can start an RFC to overturn it. But if the committee picks a new date and everyone is fine with it, it'll save a bunch of editors a bunch of time. Setting the scope of DS is a core function that editors elect arbs to perform, so I don't think it's a stretch to say the community would trust Arbcom to change the AP2 start date without requiring an RFC. Levivich harass/hound 04:36, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
I think pushing it back to 1960 makes the most sense. Keeping it at 1960 rather than 1980 ensures that Vietnam and Watergate would remain under the scope, among other topics. 1980 would be the furthest I would go, because anything later would omit the Reagan years, which have always been a point of controversy. -- Calidum 15:18, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
We should be cautious about changing the date too much. It's important to consider that, just because recent editing history may show a narrower, more recent, focus to disputes, that doesn't mean that users won't find reasons to dispute about earlier history as events unfold in the near future. There is, in particular, the likelihood of disputes over whether or not Trump represents a short-term phenomenon, or whether he is the culmination of decades of political trends. Does it go back to Nixon's southern strategy? To the Red Scare? To Jim Crow? En-Wiki faces a particular challenge in that there is a significant political movement based upon deliberate falsification of reality. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:29, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
While I definitely think the date could be changed, I'd be cautious about relying exclusively on data about existing disruption or sanctions; one thing to worry about is that if the cut-off is too recent, users topic-banned or restricted in the AP2 area might just shift to disrupting articles somewhat earlier in the timeline. Also, having the restrictions be "intuitive" is absolutely valuable to both editors and administrators - they should be able to guess at a glance whether something falls under it. Based on this I strenuously oppose 1988, which is utterly arbitrary and has no special meaning or relevance to the topic area - if we're going to change the scope, 1980 is a much more significant date and will be far more intuitive. The restriction shouldn't be drastically broader than necessary, sure; but it should also be logical and shouldn't leave things outside its scope that are plainly connected in a single topic area. --Aquillion (talk) 15:15, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
From Eggishorn's analysis, 1992 is the issue and almost nothing before that is causing a problem. I almost think it could be 2000 with only a very few concerns before that. And, wow. That is an amazing look at American politics. Someone needs to write a scholarly paper using that analysis. —valereee (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
ArbCom, grab the bull by the horns, and eliminate DS/AE altogether. It doesn't work - it opens the door to WP:POV creep, and there's really nothing that happens in a controversial topic area that an admin cannot handle normally to stop disruption. All DS/AE does is make it more difficult to reverse a bad judgment call - not saying all are bad judgment calls but I do believe POV creep is an issue. Let the admins do their job normally - if one of them misjudges, another admin will let them know and a compromise can be worked out less any wheel warring. Unilateral actions based on an admins sole discretion has created animosity, confusion, has cost us good editors, solves nothing, and wastes our time as we're seeing here now. That's my inflated nickel's worth, and yes, I'm biased because of what has happened to me. Atsme 💬 📧 19:11, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
1992 seems to be an entirely appropriate cutoff to me. It's not as if we can't go back and adjust it (or apply existing administrative tools) if a bunch of issues suddenly bubble up around Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon. BD2412 T 21:19, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm content with whatever cutoff year yas choose. Just be sure to let me know, what that new cutoff year is. GoodDay (talk) 21:22, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
I think that what makes a few topics particularly and intractably contentious is when there when there is a current real-world contest on where persons from one side feel that their side can gain or lose based on what's in the related Wikipedia article. Also where enough English Wikipedia editors are motivated to that level. The next consideration is that measures such as this should only be as broad as needed. Besides a chilling effect, like with other Wikipedia mechanisms, tools designed to avoid warfare often becomes tools OF warfare. Regarding American politics, the core of the battle is elections and current specific hotly debated items and culture wars. By that criteria, I think that moving it up to 1980 would still encompass the particularly and intractably contentious areas. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:27, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
As someone who worked on and voted on the existing remedy, I can tell you why I argued for this date specifically -- so that the entirety of Social Security would be covered. It was not a date picked out of thin air; while most of the New Deal is not a major issue in the modern climate, at the time (and in the years preceding the decision) proposals on the reform of Social Security were a fairly big deal, and the impending exhaustion of the trust fund in the next couple years might bring it back up again. I haven't been nearly active enough lately to offer anything beyond this historical "What was arbcom thinking?" footnote, though! Courcelles (talk) 01:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1988 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1988 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.
In Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)"), the Arbitration Committee authorized standard discretionary sanctions for "all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people". The Committee is now considering amending the 1932 cutoff date, and invites the community to hold an advisory RfC regarding what change, if any, should be made to it.
Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1980 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1980 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.
Remedy 1.2 of the American politics 2 case ("Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff)") is retitled "Discretionary sanctions (1992 cutoff)" and amended by replacing the words "post-1932 politics of the United States" with "post-1992 politics of the United States". Any sanctions or other restrictions imposed under the discretionary sanctions authorization to date shall remain in force unaffected.
Enacted - Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 22:08, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Interstellarity at 13:22, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
I have a question regarding the recent decision made by ArbCom. There are editors that are topic banned from post-1932 American politics. I would like the arbitrators' opinion on whether we should convert those topic bans into post-1992 AP due to the recent decision ArbCom made. Interstellarity (talk) 13:22, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Guy Macon at 17:13, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Regarding Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2#Motion: American politics 2 (1992 cutoff) (January 2021), if a user has received a DS-alert for post-1932 politics of the United States does that imply that they have been alerted regarding post-1992 politics of the United States?
This seems so inherently assumed to me, that it would actually be better for the arbs to note in their motion close that any DS regime that is modified to a subset will automatically carry over its awareness and so on. At worst, the editors are being careful about a slightly larger area than they need be. Obviously they wouldn't (fully) apply had the DS been extended (say, to American and Canadian politics), should an incident occur on the Canadian side, until they had been further made aware. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:47, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Initiated by Atsme at 01:19, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
The date of Awilley's first topic ban action is July 22 2019 but he modified it July 24, 2019 to cover US only, perhaps because I called an RfC at the only article that is clearly subject of this t-ban, and where I also received an apology for the behavior that resulted in my stated concerns over how I was being treated. As Awilley has said in the past to other editors who reacted defensively to aggressive editors, we need to grow thicker skin. A few of the diffs he included involved my attempt to fix the header template at Talk:Fascism because it conflicts with consensus from an RFC, and contradicts the resulting lead of the article, but that topic is not part of my t-ban. He also used diffs for my limited participation in an AfD involving a BLP which may or may not be associated with the topic of my t-ban. I have had very limited participation in that topic area as evidenced in this discussion. Please forgive me, but "backroom deals" don't sit well with me, so I chose to bring my appeal here. It is now January 1, 2022 and the topic ban has been in place approximately 2-1/2 years for a topic area where I have spent very little time over the past decade as an editor. In fact, an iota of time would be an gargantuan overstatement in comparison to my total edits. I would very much like to start the New Year with a clean slate, and hope ArbCom will agree that it has been long enough.
To satisfy Awilley's requirement, in the future I will try to avoid accusing people of gaslighting. Having said that, I hope we will see the removal of WP:GASLIGHTING from our PAGs in order to avoid future misunderstandings per #4. Employing gaslighting tactics – such as history re-writing, reality denial, misdirection, baseless contradiction, projection of one's own foibles onto others, repetition, or off-topic rambling – to destabilize a discussion by sowing doubt and discord. Examples: denying that you posted what you did, suggesting someone agreed to something they did not, pretending your question has not already been answered, misrepresenting what a policy actually says or means, prevaricating about the obvious meaning of a claim, or refusing to concede when your position has been disproved or rejected by consensus. As far as controversial topics go, I will take BDD's advice to heart and make IDGAF my friend. Atsme 💬 📧 18:39, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, traveling. I've always been willing to lift this ban on the condition that Atsme makes some kind of commitment to remedy the problem that led to this (and the previous) ban. I haven't seen that yet. The last appeal (June 2021) was kind of the opposite. Summarizing: "Commit to what? There is no problem. Others were the problem. You're the problem.") I'd be happy to see this ban lifted if Atsme simply said she'd try harder to follow the 2019 promise referenced below by StarshipPaint. ~Awilley (talk) 02:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Adding: for anyone unfamiliar with the history, this started with my closure of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive247#Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_Atsme this appeal, which rescinded Atsme's topic ban for the whole of American Politics. Based on comments in the admin section, my close included a warning that "backsliding into behaviors that led to the ban will result in further sanctions". Less than 4 months later I saw these edits [154] [155] [156] [157] [158] [159] accusing 4 different editors of, among other things, "gaslighting" and POV pushing. That seemed a clear case of backsliding, but instead of restoring the full AP2 topic ban, I imposed a very narrow ban for Anti-Fascism (ANTIFA).
I'll avoid any further defense of the legitimacy of the ban. I think that was settled in previous appeals. Nov 2019 Nov 2020
@North8000: I'm not insisting on a full re-commitment to the 2019 promises specifically. I just want to see some kind of commitment to do better. I'd settle for something as simple as "In the future I'll try to avoid accusing people of gaslighting." This is how I approach all appeals. ~Awilley (talk) 18:55, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
@Atsme: will you recommit to your 2019 position? [160] if I ever find myself participating in the AP2 topic area again I will stay on point, present my case with civility while keeping brevity in mind, will answer questions if asked and will maintain my customary polite demeaner at all times. If I happen to be notified of an RfC, I will simply cast my iVote, state why, and move on to other areas. I have also read the essays WP:WORLDSEND, WP:DGAF, and WP:LETITGO and have taken them to heart.
starship.paint (exalt) 08:34, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
@Atsme: I'll understand that as a 'yes', so I support lifting the sanctions, as Atsme has recommitted her intentions. From this, either all is well, or this is WP:ROPE. Anyway, I just saw that Awilley hasn't edited at all in December, so we might not hear from him here soon. starship.paint (exalt) 07:29, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
whatever "backsliding" meansoverall statement. So, the history, topic banned for [161]
filibustering and dominating discussions without bringing them forward(2018), effectively commits not to bludgeon (2019, see above), but did bludgeon in the 2020 Fox News RfC (this is a clear example from the link to the discussion itself even if diffs are not provided), that's backsliding. Atsme - defensiveness over that RfC, or defensiveness over Bishonen's statements, are not helpful. What would be more helpful to your case - 1) acknowledge that the 2020 Fox News RfC bludgeoning was problematic in the context of your 2018 topic ban and your 2019 commitment, and 2) clearly re-commit (like 2019) to not repeating this behaviour (of 2020). starship.paint (exalt) 14:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Speaking as an editor and not an Arb, since I have a fairly strong personal opinion on the matter and am the main author on Anti-fascism. As a practical point, this sanction is no longer needed. Its been over two years. Anti-fascism in the US is no longer the spicy hot-button issue it was a few years back. Atsme notes that she is not usually involved in these sort of topics. Even at the time she made a well worded appeal. I understand there is some hesitance to remove a ban because the editor wants a clean slate. But I think we should be more aware of the impacts of sanctions. We may have high ideals about turning the other cheek and being magnanimous, but our editors are still just people. Having inapplicable or unjust sanctions applying to them years later decreases editor morale and editor retention. Lift Atsme's ban. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
I won't oppose or support Atsme's article ban appeal. But since at least one arb (Primefac) has shown interest in the larger question of her 2019 new year's promises to do better in the area of American politics, I'll offer a brief history of the fate of these promises, and also point to her apparent unwillingness to explicitly reaffirm them here. These were some very strong and sincere-sounding promises which led to her indefinite AP2 topic ban being lifted in March 2019 and which are partly quoted by Starship.paint above. Atsme's reply to Starship.paint's question about recommitting to the promises seems quite evasive. It consists only of a diff from July 2019 meant as a "demonstrative answer" (?), and the statement that I have always taken and will continue to take my commitments seriously.
The diff does not mention those promises or their content. It seems irrelevant to Starship.paint's question, and I'm quite surprised Starship.paint 'understands it as a yes'. I wonder if Primefac and the other arbs understand it so too.
Atsme has not always taken those commitments seriously. By August 2020, she had comprehensively backslid (in my opinion) from them, and when this was pointed out by a regular user,[162] she showed no interest in reaffirming the commitments or even acknowledging them.[163] Indeed, she aggressively blew off the regular user with "I don't need you dancing atop a 2 year action [this refers to her t-ban from American politics] that was questionable from the get-go. Stop dredging up the past"
and impugned their motives. The way she absconded from her promises and resented being reminded of them alarmed me, and I posted a warning in my admin role,[164] reminding her that they were what got her topic ban lifted and giving specifics about current problems that I perceived. A striking recent example then was the way she had bludgeoned the Fox News RFC in the summer of 2020, posting some 75 times in it — quite the contrast to the 2019 undertaking "If I happen to be notified of an RfC, I will simply cast my iVote, state why, and move on to other areas"
. I urged her to re-read her old appeal and start living up to her old promises, or I would consider reinstating the AP2 topic ban. She made no reply. Perhaps the arbs want to consider whether they'd like a clearer reply from Atsme to the question above about reaffirming her promises. Bishonen | tålk 14:58, 3 January 2022 (UTC).
I don't think my opinion will matter much but I would support the appeal. This isn't an appeal to lift a general politics tban, but a narrow sub-set tban. Atsme has shown that they aren't a problem in the broader topic space which should be all the evidence we need to say that this ban is no longer needed to protect Wikipedia. Politics, especially in the last year has been particularly divisive yet we don't have clear evidence of any backsliding. I know Bishonen noted the concerns of another editor. It's worth noting the editor was involved in the topic area and several topics with Atsme herself vs an uninvolved editor trying to raise a helpful concern. We are over a year later and two and a half years after the general AP ban was lifted. It seems like it's increasingly difficult to view this tban as needed to protect Wikipedia. Springee (talk) 18:45, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
Comment for those who are opposing the removal, what harm are we protecting here? The purpose of tbans etc is specifically to protect Wikipedia. What harm is likely to come if this is removed? I think that Bishonen's comments have given editors real concern but should they? I see two basic concerns, the first being replies to Soibangla, the second being replies to the Fox RfC. Above I mentioned the concerns other editors have expressed with the way Soibangla has interacted with others. Atsme's replies to what look like battleground comments directed at Atsme look blunt but restrained. The Fox RfC did have a lot of comments but it was a VERY long RfC [179]. This RfC had 63 citations, ~650 signed edits and was active for a month and a half (7 June to 21 July). I counted 67 signed comments by Atsme in that RfC. Quite a few editors were well into the double digits. Many of Atsme's edits were back and forth discussions rather than an editor individually challenging every editor who opposed Atsme's POV which is typically where we raise the bludgeoning concern. They weren't a bunch of uncivil comments, most seem quite congenial even in disagreement. Yes, 67 is a lot but when looking at the total size and But when we look at the total length and breadth of the discussion this isn't the bludgeoning the raw number makes it appear to be. So after 2.5 years of very contentious politics this is all the evidence we have to refuse to lift a narrow topic band? Again, are we actually protecting Wikipedia? If people really are that concerned I think WTT's probationary period is a good compromise. Springee (talk) 15:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
I came here to support this, but now I'd like to see an answer to Bishonen's statement. Black Kite (talk) 23:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
I was highly reluctant to participate in this discussion, but Atsme's assertion that I wrongfully accused me of a BLP vio, obviously in retaliation for this incident
is flatly false and is indicative of an unrelenting vendetta that Atsme is attempting to project upon me. I find Atsme incorrigible and if it were up to me Atsme would have been permanently banned from AP2 years ago. I cannot fathom why Atsme has been given so many passes for persistently bad behavior. And I fully anticipate that I will be targeted for retribution for coming right out and saying it. Bring it. soibangla (talk) 15:21, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to hear Atsme's response to Awilley's request. Unlike starship.paint, I don't take her response as a yes, and I'd prefer something more clearcut. Doug Weller talk 08:06, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
I don't follow AP so consider this a kibitzer opinion. A request to remove a ban should be crisp and clear. It should recognize why the ban was imposed and clearly state what the editor will do to ensure that the particular behavior is not repeated. I don't see that here. starship.paint's question, for example, required a pro-forma "yes, yes, yes,..." response but, instead, we get a two year old diff that is a non-answer (especially in the light of later diffs from Bishonen). The Opabinia regalis question also required a straightforward answer (this, this, this, or some combination of the three) but, instead, we get a long meandering response with a pointer to an essay (with a, less than encouraging, reference to "admin cabals") and an AfD, neither of which actually answer the questions. Frankly, the topic ban itself seems so limited that it hardly seems to matter whether it stays or goes but, procedurally, it would be nice to see clear statements from the requester and I'm puzzled as to why Atsme seems to not want to be direct in their responses. --RegentsPark (comment) 13:42, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Support. 2 1/2 years is enough. Regarding the possible commitment in question, it is a very long post with at least a half dozen interpret-able conditions and a minefield for anybody to commit to. About the only way to fulfill the multiple possible interpretations of those half dozen commitments would be near-zero participation. A better merge would be saying zero drama in that area (with near-zero participation being the only way to safe way to fulfill all interpretations of that)for 6 months. After that they would just have the same scrutiny that all editors have. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
@Awilley: Cool and sounds very reasonable. I was just pointing out the issues of going by that particular post and why one would be hesitant to commit to it. North8000 (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Suggest clarification. After 12 months and if all goes well, is it all over, or go back to a full ban or require another discussion/decision here? North8000 (talk) 22:23, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Atsme previously appealed this topic ban unsuccessfully at WP:AE in November 2020 (link). I don't see that she's mentioned or linked that appeal. One reviewing admin described it as "large amounts of text disclaiming any responsibility on the grounds that everything is some other users' fault". Little seems to have changed, despite the passage of time.
It's common for appeals to contain red flags, but this appeal consists of nothing but red flags: re-litigation of the original ban, no acknowledgement of its rationale, no convincing insight or commitment to change, no real argument beyond time-served, and a lengthy list of grievances. It's quintessential WP:NOTTHEM and bad-faith wikilawyering. I mean, she's soup-spitting you guys about the term "backsliding". Come on.
As usual, debate here focuses on the rights of the sanctioned user. Those affected by her behavior—their voices are largely silent here, their time and experience accorded basically zero value in your deliberations. You guys can pat yourselves on the back, quote the-quality-of-mercy speech and WP:ROPE, and pretend that there's no cost to lifting these sorts of sanctions, because there is no cost to you, and because your empathy extends only to the sanctioned user. It's like letting a wolf loose in a henhouse and then congratulating yourselves on your kindness to animals.
As others have pointed out, Atsme's AP2 topic ban was lifted in response to vague commitments to do better, commitments which were promptly ignored and exposed as toothless. It was foolish and irresponsible to have lifted that topic ban in the absence of any insight or reason to think the underlying behavior would change. But doing the same thing again—as you seem to be considering here—would be outright administrative malpractice. MastCell Talk 18:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
The amendment is requested to You are indefinitely topic banned from Anti fascism in the United States, broadly construed.
I fail to see, how under even the broadest of construals, the RfC about the reliability of Fox News has anything to do with Antifa in the US. Template:Warning Fascism left-wing was the issue of concern there. The title of that template shouldn't be of much concern since that's not visible to readers. The text of that template has been stable since Jimbo Wales 14 June 2021 edit (I synced it with the current version of the article). There is no reason to maintain sanctions over that. This sanction seems to be (mostly) about Atsme's use of the term "gaslighting". Some background on that. MrX, who at the time was actively editing the Donald Trump bio, created several related shortcuts on 22 June 2018, and boldly amended the Wikipedia:Gaming the system behavioral guideline by adding "Employing gaslighting tactics by using misdirection, repetition, contradiction, and off-topic rambling to destabilize a discussion by sowing doubt and discord. Example: Repeatedly complaining about bias in the press or clickbait to undermine reliable sources, while ignoring requests to stay on topic.
" with edit summary "Happy to discuss on talk if anyone disagrees with this." This was apparently in preparation for the American politics 2 amendment request he filed on 28 June 2018 (just 6 days later), in which he accused Atsme of Repeatedly discrediting reliable sources; claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources (WP:GASLIGHTING)
. AWilley did not approve of this term, as he filed a redirect for discussion stating This seems like a non-neutral and misleading redirect. Gaslighting has a specific meaning and the target page (examples of gaming/wikilawering) doesn't include anything about gaslighting or any other form of psychological abuse.
but there was no consensus to delete the term, and today the target says Employing gaslighting tactics – such as history re-writing, reality denial, misdirection, baseless contradiction, projection of one's own foibles onto others, repetition, or off-topic rambling – to destabilize a discussion by sowing doubt and discord.
I'm wondering why we've sanctioned an editor for using a term for which there was no consensus to delete and which still is used on a behavioral guideline page, and if this is sanctionable, was MrX ever sanctioned for accusing Atsme of gaslighting? wbm1058 (talk) 23:35, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
put a "provisional" clause on the removal, that an uninvolved administrator can return it and if none have after 12 months it is completely removed.Aren't uninvolved administrators always authorized to place discretionary sanctions where allowed – for new instances of sanctionable behavior, even if the sanction is identical to a previously expired or repealed sanction that was imposed for an old instance of sanctionable behavior? – without needing any enabling "clause" – and would removal of the "clause" after 12 months then have the effect of prohibiting the imposition of sanctions for new instances of sanctionable behavior? wbm1058 (talk) 16:31, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
The primary meaning of backsliding, according to Wikipedia, is a term used within Christianity to describe a process by which an individual who has converted to Christianity reverts to pre-conversion habits and/or lapses or falls into sin... the backslidden individual is in danger of eventually going to Hell if he does not repent. I don't care for the use of this term with its negative religious connotations in conversations about behavior on Wikipedia. Ideally, I'd like to see both terms "backsliding" and "gaslighting" removed from the vocabulary of behavioral discussions on Wikipedia. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:34, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
I would recommend Atsme provide a direct and concise response to the arbs and Awilley and then just avoid AP articles and issues altogether. No one can fix those places, especially in this political climate. So it better to find places in the pedia that allow one to have some fun and avoid some folks with serious mental and emotional issues.--MONGO (talk) 16:14, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Is there anything actually added by the provisional nature of the motion below? Cant any uninvolved admin already re-impose a topic ban as a DS if they feel it required, AP2 still being a topic area covered by DS? Just seems like a distinction without a difference in lifting the ban and the way it is worded below. nableezy - 18:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Possibly moot, but IMO reasonable editors who are on the more-conservative side than the average editor ought to be valued for what they can offer, even if considering their pov sometimes feels frustrating, because considering their pov is necessary for arriving at NPOV. When only one or two people are arguing for something, it can look like disruption and feel like it to those who are in the majority politically. That doesn't mean we should treat it as disruptive. It might just mean we need to pry open our own minds and that we should think about that possibility.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Atsme's topic ban from post-WWII Anti fascism in the United States is provisionally lifted for a period of twelve months. If at any point before 1 January 2023 an uninvolved administrator feels that Atsme is not able to edit productively in this area, they may re-impose the topic ban.
For this motion there are 14 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 8 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Enacted - –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:11, 9 January 2022 (UTC)