The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. – Juliancolton | Talk 02:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

List of kosher restaurants[edit]

List of kosher restaurants (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

There are literally thousands of kosher restaurants over the whole world, including a few thousand in Israel. I see no reason to single out 24 of them. None of them in Israel. Not to mention that the list contains 2 closed establishments. Deletion was suggested on the talkpage as well, see Talk:List of kosher restaurants. Debresser (talk) 21:45, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 22:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see nothing in WP:LISTPURP and WP:CLN that indicates value of this list. All it says is that lists and categories are not mutually exclusive. That doesn't make a point for the article yet. In this case, the category would be enough. This article doesn't add anything to the category. Debresser (talk) 02:59, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If they are closed, then they are no longer a kosher restaurant. This is not the category for former kosher restaurants... Debresser (talk) 03:48, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
After some editing, there are only 17 entries left, of which 3 only have some kosher branches, 2 are chains that carry some or mostly kosher products, and 3 are closed. I think the chains with only some kosher branches or products, don't really belong in this list. Per my argument above, closed restaurants also don't. I really don't think we should have this list for the remaining 9 kosher restaurants, or even for 17, for that matter. The category is more than enough for that. Debresser (talk) 03:48, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Companies no longer in business are not automatically deemed non-notable, as per WP:NTEMP. See also WP:OUTOFBUSINESS. North America1000 09:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You don't have an argument that being now closed means it shouldn't be listed, any more than that the dead should be deleted from lists of people. That status can be noted in the list's "description" field. And such annotations, as well as the sortability of the list's table, are what this list provides above and beyond the category (not that this is even necessary to justify keeping the list as well as the category, per WP:NOTDUP). postdlf (talk) 14:06, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. North America1000 08:51, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – The article is not intended to be a complete listing of every kosher restaurant in the world, it's just for notable ones. Also, the article does not contain "Contact information such as phone numbers, fax numbers and e-mail addresses", which is what would be an actual violation of WP:NOTYELLOW. North America1000 14:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with most of the removals. I actually proposed them, as I stated above. However, the museum and community center operate a restaurant, so they should be in the article. After all, there is a restaurant there! I restored them. Debresser (talk) 16:59, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Would you put those articles in Category:Kosher restaurants? postdlf (talk) 18:46, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, they are. They have been. And for some time.... Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:53, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Generally a list and corresponding category should have the same inclusion criteria, such that if an article belongs in a category it also belongs in a list organized around the same topic. Though if anything lists can afford to be broader in inclusion than categories, because lists can annotate more borderline cases or group them separately under headers noting a disputed status or whatever. postdlf (talk) 20:21, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Shawn in Montreal How is this not a reply? Debresser (talk) 18:53, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there are also List of Chinese restaurants and List of Italian restaurants. There are posts on each talk page asking about the validity of the list. I would support a general eradication of such lists per the rationales mentioned here. --Khajidha (talk) 18:40, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Also List of Thai restaurants. --Khajidha (talk) 18:42, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, looking at the "lists of restaurants" navbox, I would advise doing away with virtually everything in the "by cuisine" and "by ethnicity" sections. --Khajidha (talk) 18:46, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So also deleting Category:Restaurants by type or Category:Ethnic restaurants and all of their subcategories? If so, by what criteria would we then index our articles on restaurants? postdlf (talk) 22:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I said nothing about categories, only lists.--Khajidha (talk) 22:16, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I asked you about how the principle you're advocating would affect the categories that correspond to these lists. postdlf (talk) 22:19, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
this is a list of notable kosher restaurants per Wikipedia's standards, and is not a general list of all kosher restaurants in any region or in the world, nor is it intended to be. It's unclear why people in this discussion keep stating that the article is improper because of the existence of many non-notable kosher restaurants in the world. The list is not meant to list non-notable restaurants. North America1000 23:58, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's a pretty clear sign that they have not read the whole discussion before commenting, nor are they familiar with our guidelines and practices regarding lists of articles. postdlf (talk) 01:39, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Or perhaps they disagree with you, like at least another two editors here. Please assume good faith. Debresser (talk) 05:31, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to me that this list (and others like it) fail on "readers over editors" grounds. It does not give any real information, but is only a readout of the state of Wikipedia articles on kosher restaurants at this time. --Khajidha (talk) 14:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Debresser: "Assume good faith" does not mean "assume there's a good argument". Commenters do not demonstrate that they have a good argument, or that they have meaningfully considered and participated in the discussion, when they repeat a premise already explained to be incorrect, or they raise a point that has already been rebutted, without presenting a counterargument or even acknowledging that a rebuttal had been made. Unelaborated "disagreement" is then woefully inadequate to fall back upon. postdlf (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Khajidha: Please do read WP:LISTPURP (on "navigation" specifically), and WP:CLN, which were cited to in the very first comment in this discussion and are directly on point as to your claim. And look again at the annotations in the list. postdlf (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I did read those, the LISTPURP is what clarified for me what the problem I'm seeing with this list is. --Khajidha (talk) 15:42, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yet you haven't even mentioned its navigational function as a list "of Wikipedia articles on kosher restaurants at this time"; you've instead appeared to express the opinion that we shouldn't have such things, contra LISTPURP and CLN. postdlf (talk) 00:04, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There isn't much to navigate with a "list" of some 10 out of the hundreds or even thousands of kosher restaurants that exist. The article should be called "A very partial, embarrassing so, not usable for anything practical, list of a few kosher establishments". Debresser (talk) 06:38, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Which could be handled by adding "For articles on individual kosher restaurants, see: Category:Kosher restaurants" to the kosher restaurant article, with the added benefit of avoiding the implication (inherent in the simple title "list of kosher restaurants") that this list is comprehensive rather than just a list of those few restaurants that we happen to have articles on.--Khajidha (talk) 11:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All of which is just to say you disagree with existing consensus and guidelines regarding the navigational use of such indexes of articles (and yes, it is about navigating our articles) as having value and being complementary to categories. Which is an opinion that is not specific to this list. postdlf (talk) 14:09, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You feeling the need to reply to everybody who disagrees with your point of view, including repeating the same thing over and over, is becoming a bit stifling for the discussion. Debresser (talk) 15:34, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. We all do that some times. Please don't remove your vote just because of that. Even though you disagree with me, but I value your input. Debresser (talk) 13:41, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're very kind. No, I honestly don't know what's best in this case. I'm a big proponent of CLN here yet the fact that virtually every restaurant in Israel -- save, I guess, for those catering to Arab Israelis who are halal? -- would have some form of kosher designation, apparently, gives me pause. BTW, if this list goes, one of us should nominate the category for deletion, for as we know, the criteria for "definingness" on a category is even higher than a list. Postdlf sort of alluded to that above and I can't see a category without this list. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 13:51, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
One way it seems to be handled in other lists of "national" or "ethnic" cuisine restaurants is to limit them to restaurants featuring that cuisine outside the country of origin: for example List of Chinese restaurants, per definition at Chinese restaurant that it's "an establishment that serves Chinese cuisine outside China." Otherwise the designation is not meaningful; a restaurant in China that serves Chinese cuisine is just a restaurant in China. Whether that treatment is appropriate for kosher food and restaurants in Israel is not a question we need to resolve here, and again it should be resolved the same way for the category as well as the list. postdlf (talk) 15:11, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 13:58, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And since the status of restaurants in the Jewish homeland has been raised above in what seems to me to be a relevant point, I've added it to the above deletion sorting page, too. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:00, 4 May 2017 (UTC) [reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
More