The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Randykitty (talk) 06:11, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Torrance bowling alley shooting

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With due respect to the victims, this event doesn't seem to be notable. While it is a bit early to tell, it seems that there's only routine coverage, and not every mass shooting is automatically notable. ansh 666 02:44, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. ansh 666 02:44, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. ansh 666 02:44, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Don't abandon this article just keep and perhaps the police will find the identity of the shooter and his motives sooner or later. (45.50.57.253) 05:30, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

remove - motives that are later to be found are, for now, failing (wp:notability) via (wp:crystal)--2600:8800:FF0E:1200:1962:B311:16B2:F79B (talk) 03:34, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

keep - the shooting has a lot of media coverage and it is possible that by tomorrow or the day after the identity of the shooter will be found (like every shooting) and his motives will be revealed. Keep in mind as one article from Britain's The Independent has revealed the police are currently in a manhunt. We'll just have to find out who the shooter is and what motivated him tomorrow or some other day as I said before. 4:00, 6 January 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.50.57.253 (talk)

Define "a lot" - how so? It made the news as it was an event that is normally covered, but already it has faded far into the background. This is just drug/gang violence of no import or significance and Wiki does not keep articles of routine news stories. Delete!50.111.13.35 (talk) 16:58, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - a mass shooting with an unknown motive, at a bowling alley, reported by the international mainstream media. Jim Michael (talk) 04:24, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. With no motive known, this doesn't rate an article; there are just too many mass shootings, unfortunately. Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:41, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete While newsworthy it is not WP:notable. As above, Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The identity of the shooters is unlikely to change notability so no reason to keep the article in case the police find that out as suggested above. noq (talk) 11:35, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
strongly suggest that editors hold off commenting for a day or two, per WP:RAPID. This happened late at night on the weekend, let's give the press and the police a couple of news cycles to look at this. National Public Radio: "Employees told the Los Angeles Times that fights at the bowling alley are uncommon. Torrance police say investigators are still working to identify the people involved.".
Delete Just another gang-related/drug-related shooting of no particular interest for an encyclopedia. Delete immediately. 50.111.13.35 (talk) 16:44, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Except that news and police sources haven't yet identified suspects or cause. People, please bring sources, not unsupported opinions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:05, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - This is tragic but it falls under WP:NOTNEWS and WP:DELAY. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:08, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This is a major mass shooting, if not an obvious terrorist attack. If there was a political motive, they are trying to hide it. One wonders why so many editors are quick to call for the deletion of such major crime which is the equal of a terrorist attack in violence Bachcell (talk) 23:10, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The terrorism mention is pure speculation. It's not unlike other mass shootings in the US in its violence (see List of mass shootings in the United States in 2018 and List of mass shootings in the United States in 2019). GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:12, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I want to make it clear that there is still an ongoing investigation and the police are going out of their way to find who did the shooting so like what one user said editors should hold off from deleting or editing the article. 24:15 6 January 2019 (UTC)
Delete — RAPID also works in that it urges editors to wait before creating such an article like this. NOTNEWS—a core policy—urges the same thing. Bachcell’s misguided, POV remark just exemplifies one part of why Wikipedia is not a mirror of the news and why these types of articles must be deleted.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:10, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What does this mass shooting lack to qualify it to be notable? Jim Michael (talk) 09:54, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What does this have that raises it above the other 2 that happened on the same day according to the List of mass shootings in the United States in 2019? Or earlier in 2019 or in the majority of entries in the 2018 equivalent?

Every mass shooting is notable enough to include in that list, and should not be deleted as "routine" or "not notable" or "not news". This terrorist style incident is also included on the current events page for this date. It is notable there are so many editors who believe "this type of article must be deleted" are found when other editors want to read about topics like crimes with no apparent political motive, deadly accidents with no apparent cause, and terrorist attacks Bachcell (talk) 13:25, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is no dispute about listing it on that page - the dispute is whether it is sufficiently more notable to justify a standalone article about something that little is known about. Most of what has been written about it other than the basic facts is speculation. If you want to read about current criminal investigations the best place for that is a newspaper not an encyclopaedia noq (talk) 14:47, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CNN: official sources still looking for suspects, motives.[1]E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:15, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind that the police are continuing their investigation of who started the shooting and the motive for the brawl. So sooner or later they're going to find out. 15:01, 7 January 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:A44D:9200:1459:CF30:1EC7:39B7 (talk)

Just so. Which is why we should wait until this info comes out. When suspects, sequence of events, motives are described by official sources, the quesiton of notability will probably also be clear.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:09, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This would be a significant event in most countries' context. Not a gang/drug related shooting accordingly to what's been reported so far. "We've never had an incident like this in the city of Torrance" - Torrance Police Chief. If in 30 days the context indicates it should be deleted the question could be revisited.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:15, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is not in most countries context but that of the US. According to the List of mass shootings in the United States in 2018 article, there were 323 mass shooting incidents in the US last year, an average of nearly 30 a month. Rather than creating news articles in Wikipedia and then deciding at some future point in the future whether they are notable, why not create them in Wikinews instead. All the keep arguments I have seen so far seem to be related to news value and not encyclopaedic notability. noq (talk) 11:53, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly I have to agree with Noq, this falls under WP:ROUTINE coverage. You are going to have to show how this shooting stands out from the hundreds of others. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:23, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete incident began as a fight, ex-con on parole was arrested, it all looks tragically ROUTINE.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:02, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I have been helping to maintain the List of mass shootings in the United States and the 2018- and 2019-specific articles. I have to agree that this shooting does not really differentiate itself from the hundreds of mass shootings that occur yearly in the United States, and that although it's received some news coverage it is really not notable enough for Wikipedia. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:40, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Not a terrorism incident, seemingly neither random or premeditated. Just another day in US where guns settle arguments. WWGB (talk) 06:04, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.