• Propose deleting Category:Malikism by continent
• Propose deleting Category:Malikism in Africa
• Propose merging Category:Malikism in Algeria to Category:Maliki

• Propose renaming Category:People of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus people
• Propose renaming Category:8th-century bishops in Al-Andalus to Category:8th-century Al-Andalus bishops
• Propose renaming Category:9th-century bishops in Al-Andalus to Category:9th-century Al-Andalus bishops
• Propose renaming Category:9th-century Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:9th-century Al-Andalus Jews
• Propose renaming Category:10th-century bishops in Al-Andalus to Category:10th-century Al-Andalus bishops
• Propose renaming Category:10th-century Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:10th-century Al-Andalus Jews
• Propose renaming Category:10th-century rabbis of Al-Andalus to Category:10th-century Al-Andalus rabbis
• Propose renaming Category:11th-century bishops in Al-Andalus to Category:11th-century Al-Andalus bishops
• Propose renaming Category:11th-century Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:11th-century Al-Andalus Jews
• Propose renaming Category:11th-century rabbis of Al-Andalus to Category:11th-century Al-Andalus rabbis
• Propose renaming Category:12th-century Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:12th-century Al-Andalus Jews
• Propose renaming Category:12th-century rabbis of Al-Andalus to Category:12th-century Al-Andalus rabbis
• Propose renaming Category:13th-century Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:13th-century Al-Andalus Jews
• Propose renaming Category:13th-century rabbis of Al-Andalus to Category:13th-century Al-Andalus rabbis
• Propose renaming Category:Arabs of Al-Andalus‎ to Category:Al-Andalus Arabs
• Propose renaming Category:Jews of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus Jews
• Propose renaming Category:Clergy of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus clergy
• Propose renaming Category:Scholars of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus scholars
• Propose renaming Category:Maliki scholars of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus Maliki scholars
• Propose renaming Category:Philosophers of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus philosophers
• Propose renaming Category:Scientists of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus scientists
• Propose renaming Category:Astronomers of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus astronomers
• Propose renaming Category:Mathematicians of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus mathematicians
• Propose renaming Category:Pharmacologists of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus pharmacologists
• Propose renaming Category:Physicians of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus physicians
• Propose renaming Category:Poets of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus poets
• Propose renaming Category:Women poets of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus women poets
• Propose renaming Category:Christians of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus Christians
• Propose renaming Category:Slaves of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus slaves
• Propose renaming Category:Sufis of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus Sufis
• Propose renaming Category:Women of Al-Andalus to Category:Al-Andalus women

• It is as close to nationality as one can expect in medieval times. People were united by the religion and language of the ruling class. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:47, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd favour 'from'. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:15, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 09:01, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Percussion instruments by tradition (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• I do not understand what needs to be discussed "as a whole". Please explain. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:47, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: @Andrewa?
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• Propose renaming Category:World Junior Table Tennis Championships to Category:ITTF World Youth Championships

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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• Propose merging Category:American settlers to Category:American pioneers
• Propose merging Category:Florida settlers to Category:Florida pioneers

• Correct, but that nomination contained an entirely different target. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:59, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The definition in this article (including "and later [from] United States") applies to all biographies currently in Category:American settlers. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 08:57, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval scientists to Category:Medieval scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:4th-century scientists to Category:4th-century scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:5th-century scientists to Category:5th-century scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:6th-century scientists to Category:6th-century scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:7th-century scientists to Category:7th-century scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:8th-century scientists to Category:8th-century scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:9th-century scientists to Category:9th-century scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:10th-century scientists to Category:10th-century scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:11th-century scientists to Category:11th-century scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:12th-century scientists to Category:12th-century scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:13th-century scientists to Category:13th-century scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:14th-century scientists to Category:14th-century scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval women scientists to Category:Medieval women scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Byzantine scientists to Category:Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Byzantine scientists by century to Category:Byzantine scholars by century
• Propose renaming and populating Category:4th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:4th-century Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:5th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:5th-century Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:6th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:6th-century Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:7th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:7th-century Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:8th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:8th-century Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:9th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:9th-century Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:11th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:11th-century Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:12th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:12th-century Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:13th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:13th-century Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:14th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:14th-century Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:15th-century Byzantine scientists to Category:15th-century Byzantine scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Egyptian scientists to Category:Medieval Egyptian scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval English scientists to Category:Medieval English scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval French scientists to Category:Medieval French scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:Scientists of the medieval Islamic world to Category:Scholars of the medieval Islamic world and Category:Science in the medieval Islamic world
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Scientists of the medieval Islamic world by state to Category:Scholars of the medieval Islamic world by state
• Propose selectively merging Category:Scientists from the Abbasid Caliphate to Category:Scholars from the Abbasid Caliphate and Category:Science in the Abbasid Caliphate
• Propose selectively merging Category:Scientists of Al-Andalus to Category:Scholars of Al-Andalus and Category:Science in Al-Andalus
• Propose selectively merging Category:Scientists from the Fatimid Caliphate to Category:Scholars from the Fatimid Caliphate
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Scientists from the Umayyad Caliphate to Category:Scholars from the Umayyad Caliphate
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Italian scientists to Category:Medieval Italian scholars
• Propose selectively merging Category:Medieval Jewish scientists to Category:Medieval Jewish scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Korean scientists to Category:Medieval Korean scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Polish scientists to Category:Medieval Polish scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Portuguese scientists to Category:Medieval Portuguese scholars
• Propose renaming and populating Category:Medieval Spanish scientists to Category:Medieval Spanish scholars

• That should surely be added to scholars after renaming to scholars. Writers should be added too. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:56, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 13:32, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 08:56, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:American people of European descent by occupation
• Propose deleting Category:American people of Armenian descent by occupation
• Propose merging Category:Armenian-American male actors to Category:American people of Armenian descent
• Propose merging Category:American musicians of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
• Propose merging Category:American classical musicians of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
• Propose merging Category:American politicians of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
• Propose merging Category:American sportspeople of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
• Propose merging Category:American writers of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
• Propose merging Category:American journalists of Armenian descent to Category:American people of Armenian descent
• Propose deleting Category:American people of Greek descent by occupation
• Propose merging Category:American gangsters of Greek descent to Category:American people of Greek descent
• Propose deleting Category:19th-century Greek American people by occupation
• Propose merging Category:19th-century Greek American military personnel to Category:American people of Greek descent
• Propose merging Category:19th-century Greek American painters to Category:American people of Greek descent
• Propose merging Category:19th-century Greek American writers to Category:American people of Greek descent
• Propose deleting Category:20th-century Greek American people by occupation
• Propose merging Category:20th-century Greek American military personnel to Category:American people of Greek descent
• Propose merging Category:20th-century Greek American writers to Category:American people of Greek descent
• Propose merging Category:American politicians of Greek descent to Category:American people of Greek descent
• Propose merging Category:American writers of Greek descent to Category:American people of Greek descent
• Propose merging Category:20th-century Greek American writers to Category:American people of Greek descent
• Propose deleting Category:American people of Italian descent by occupation
• Propose merging Category:American sportspeople of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
• Propose merging Category:American boxers of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
• Propose merging Category:American professional wrestlers of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
• Propose merging Category:American film directors of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
• Propose merging Category:American trade unionists of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
• Propose merging Category:American lawyers and judges of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
• Propose merging Category:American politicians of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
• Propose merging Category:American professional wrestlers of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
• Propose merging Category:American sculptors of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
• Propose merging Category:American writers of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
• Propose merging Category:American poets of Italian descent to Category:American people of Italian descent
• Propose deleting Category:American people of Russian descent by occupation
• Propose merging Category:American writers of Russian descent to Category:American people of Russian descent
• Propose deleting Category:American people of Spanish descent by occupation
• Propose merging Category:American politicians of Spanish descent to Category:American people of Spanish descent

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 13:33, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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• Note that I am not suggesting to delete Category:American people of Greek descent etc. The nomination is just about the intersection with occupation. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Namiba? — Qwerfjkltalk 09:50, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the nomination. I believe these intersections are notable. Take, for example, the intersection listed by William Allen Simpson below. There have been numerous characters in professional wrestling whose main feature is being Italian. For example, the many members of the group Full Blooded Italians. In the context of their occupation, ethnicity is very important. There is even a published paper about professional wrestling and the immigrant experience in the United States. If you wanted to investigate whether some of these are distinct intersections and then nominate the ones which you find do not have academic research on the subject, that is something I would support. However, mass nominating them without doing cursory research into these occupation/ethnicity combinations is not helpful for Wikipedia. Nominations like this tend to encourage a view that the European experience in North America was a homogenous one, whereas numerous studies have demonstrated that Greeks, Russians, Poles, etc have had widely varying and unique experiences. Noting that none of the categories nominated are for non-Europeans, we should consider whether this makes sense in light of the extensive literature on this subject.--User:Namiba 18:28, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Better to read citations before using them for an argument.

1. While play acting is a feature of pro-wrestling, ethnicity does not change the activity itself. In the example of Full Blooded Italians, the premise is J.T. Smith adopted the gimmick of believing himself to be an Old World Italian (despite being African American). That example proves the rule that there is/was nothing distinct and unique about Italian-American professional wrestling.
2. Having a category for white actors performing in blackface or yellowface wouldn't pass the smell test.
3. Best to actually read the dissertation, rather than just the title or abstract. Nothing there validates any notion of a distinct and unique ethnic method of pro-wrestling. You don't have to be German to perform a German suplex.
4. Contrast with the gangsters categories, where they must be that ethnicity for membership.
5. The nominator is not required to prove that there can never be a head article for each category. It is impossible to prove a negative.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 09:08, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

William Allen Simpson, it would be wise of you to refresh yourself on what WP:OCEGRS says, as it doesn't mention, nevermind require a unique method. It says that categories should exist for intersections which are "recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right." As I have noted, Italian-Americans have been recognized as such in fields like professional wrestling.--User:Namiba 02:33, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In 2009, after extensive discussion here, I'd added "ethnicity" to our guidelines.

1. We don't have room for every possible example, so it has been updated from time to time. I'm familiar with what we collectively meant at that time, when the primary example read: "For instance, in sports, German-Americans are not treated differently from Italian-Americans or French-Americans." See Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 November 29#Category:German-American sportspeople and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 February 16#Category:American sportspeople of European descent. Prior to December 2006, that sentence read, "For instance, in sports, Christian ice skaters are not treated differently from Jewish or Muslim ice skaters."
2. Your note is facially incorrect. The running gag of the group was that most of the wrestlers were obviously not of Italian descent.... An African-American mimicking supposedly Italian-American stereotypical mannerisms is not recognition, it is ridicule for laughs.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 07:47, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some of these are subject to speedy deletion as re-creation of previously deleted categories.

• Category:American sportspeople of Armenian descent
• Category:American sportspeople of Italian descent

William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Again, it would help if you were more familiar with the policy. It clearly states that "If a substantial and encyclopedic head article (not just a list) cannot be written for such a category, then the category should not be created. Please note that this does not mean that the head article must already exist before a category may be created, but that it must at least be reasonable to create one. There does not need to be a head article, only that one could be written.

Re: Italian Americans in sports, there is a well-studied connection that demonstrates an encyclopedic value. For example, Sport and the Shaping of Italian-American Identity By Gerald R. Gems, Beyond DiMaggio: Italian Americans in Baseball By Lawrence Baldassaro, and The playing fields of St. Louis: Italian immigrants and sports, 1925-1941

GR Mormino - Journal of Sport History, 1982. Given the expansive treatment given to the Italian-American experience in sports, it is clear that an encyclopedia shouldn't ignore it. User:Namiba 16:35, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Italian Americans in trade unionsts, see From Margins to Vanguard to Mainstream: Italian Americans and the Labor Movement By Marcella Bencivenni--User:Namiba 16:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I've already documented, there are few around who are more familiar (as I'd helped write it).

1. Those would be in Category:Baseball literature under Category:Works about sports. This is Wikipedia:Categorization of people.
2. Also, this is not baseball.
3. We require that the sport topic in its own right be distinct and unique to Italian-Americans.
4. We require that the union topic in its own right be distinct and unique to Italian-Americans.

• Comment — when this was previously decided at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 February 16#Category:American sportspeople of European descent, Namiba then signing as "TM" was the only holdout. There's no way to convince this person, who has long been against consensus. So this is my final response here.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 20:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My final statement on this is that Italian-Americans and many other Euro-American groups have been recognized in scholarship as a distinct and unique group. Therefore, I still recommend keeping them for now. This discussion shows that there is no consensus to delete.-- User:Namiba 15:07, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the category contents,

1. very few are writing about the Armenian genocide. That seems reasonably well covered by Category:Armenian American literature.
2. this is a strong example of category creep. What exactly is the distinct and unique Armenian-American writing in films Awakenings, Gangs of New York, Moneyball and The Irishman?

William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ping, Fayenatic london.

1. Though not a guarantee, the existence of Category:Armenian American literature is a point in favor of keeping this cat. It seems untenable to take the position that an intersection of ethnicity and literature is a distinct and unique topic but that the writers of such literature are not. Also, if we deleted the writers cat and merged upward, the literature cat would be mostly biographies (it's already 2:1 biographies). A literature cat would be a poor fit for Armenian-American non-fiction writers, like Richard G. Hovannisian.
2. Per EGRS: "People who occupy the grey areas are not a valid argument against the existence of a category" and should just be removed. There are writers that solidly belong in the category, including William Saroyan, Peter Balakian, David Kherdian, Diana Der Hovanessian, and Garin Hovannisian. The last two are not in the cat, but should be. I'm not sure if it's considered out of process to add to a category during a CFD.

I found more sources with significant coverage of Armenian-American writers: The Magical Pine Ring: Culture and Imagination in Armenian-American Literature, a great chapter in New Immigrant Literatures in the United States: A Sourcebook to Our Multicultural Literary Heritage, and Forgotten Bread: First-Generation Armenian American Writers. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:50, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that we are in substantial agreement:

1. WP:COP-HERITAGE requires These categories should not be created without a substantial and encyclopedic well sourced head article describing the contents (not just a list). Since there is none, delete it.
2. Most of Category:American writers of Armenian descent should just be removed in any case. There is no distinct and unique Armenian-American writing in films.
3. As to the other external coverage, look again: we are not discussing removal of Category:Armenian American literature; moreover, decent categories are not for "first-generation" at all! WP:COP-HERITAGE should not also contain any individual migrant, emigrant, nor immigrant ....
   William Allen Simpson (talk) 04:41, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to note how ridiculous it is to delete certain categories, such as the trade unionist one. There is extensive literature documenting how Italians in America had a unique experience in the labor movement. They formed their own organizations and often faced intense discrimination. All of this is widely documented. Being an Italian in the US labor movement is as defining to Luigi Antonini as being African-American was to A. Philip Randolph. I note that ONLY categories for certain European groups are nominated here, not for African-Americans or other ethnic groups in the US.--User:Namiba 20:05, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Kremlintarians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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• Propose renaming Category:Russian traditional music groups to Category:Russian folk music groups without redirect

• Propose renaming Category:Russian traditional dances to Category:Russian folk dances without redirect

• Category:Russian folk music|Dances
• Category:Dance in Russia|Folk
• Category:European folk dances
• Category:Russian folk culture|Dances

• It seems to me that the (mostly reverted) changes from "folk" to "traditional" were part of an effort to subsume all these Russian Empire conquered ethnic groups into being something Russian by tradition. "Folk music" has a very specific meaning in the folklore academic literature. We shouldn't be amalgamating that into a less specific genre. Better to split the others into Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc.
  Also noting that this change was done without discussion (via category redirect) by a user with rather contentious views, such as insisting that Lithuanian wasn't an actual language in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and some arbcom referrals for disruptive editing. Thus, I've brought this to our formal process to revert.
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 00:10, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Category:Folk music is a subcategory of Category:Traditional music so traditional music is not necessarily wrong. But Category:Russian folk music is a subcategory of Category:Traditional music by ethnicity and if we apply the ethnic aspect here as well the category might just as well be deleted by lack of ethnic Russian content. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Agreed. But we're not supposed to empty categories during discussion. Also, this is complicated by the category renaming a few years ago from "Imperial Russian" prefix to "of the Russian Empire" suffix.
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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• Propose merging Category:Works based on the Quran to Category:Quran

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• Propose merging Category:Muslim scholars by period to Category:Scholars of the medieval Islamic world by state

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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• Propose merging Category:Albanian gestures to Category:Albanian culture

• Propose deleting Category:Bitcoin mixer (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose merging Category:Bitcoin theft to Category:Bitcoin and Category:Cryptocurrency theft