No consensus on deletion[edit]

Per an existing consensus of editors, a merge discussion has followed the closing of the deletion discussion as no consensus.--Mark Miller (talk) 07:52, 24 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

how do i vote? 2001:8003:117E:6D00:4D16:66C5:793E:541E (talk) 08:45, 24 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It looks like you figured it out.--Mark Miller (talk) 17:25, 24 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm glad that the closer correctly recognized that most of the delete !votes weren't based on policy and were basically WP:IDONTLIKEIT. :) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:42, 25 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The closer recognized both like and dislike towards the subject, linking to WP:ILIKEIT. Wikipedia is not “fair,” it is netural, and articles are not kept or deleted because editors like or dislike a subject. The comments made without a rationale based in policy have been discounted. The closer also addressed the policy-based arguments of both sides and in the end they were equal enough to produce a no consensus closure; please do not carry over bitterness towards a certain position from previous discussions into this one. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 01:25, 27 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Except there were a bunch of delete !votes based on policy? Maybe your vote was WP:ILIKEIT? :) NoMoreHeroes (talk) 06:37, 22 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Merge proposal discussion[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
  • Summary:--There is a strong consensus to YesY support the merge.
  • Reason:--First and foremost, all votes from single purpose accounts have been discounted.The very core of the discussion has been that while the opposers held that the term alt-left has garnered strong coverage across rel. sources (which is un-doubtably true), the single-most widely-used counter-argument by the proponents of merge was that--"Alt-left" has been mostly and almost solely discussed by RS in the context of alt-right, not independently..And, that is the very basic principle of WP:OVERLAP#2.Whilst some opposer(s) have highlighted potential accessibility problems (resulting from the merge), they certainly fail to match the weight and/or gravity of the prev. argument.Winged Blades of GodricOn leave 13:04, 26 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Should the Alt-left article be merged into the Alt-right article in the section Alt-left and expanded there?

Editors are reminded of the closing admin's comment about !votes at that AFD; "Many of the comments in this discussion are not based upon Wikipedia policy; they are merely a reflection of trying to be “fair” or trying to delete an article about a term that the editor finds politically disagreeable. Wikipedia is not “fair,” it is netural, and articles are not kept or deleted because editors like or dislike a subject. The comments made without a rationale based in policy have been discounted." Please remember to be civil and maintain Wikipedia policy: There is reasonable allowance for speculation, suggestion, and personal knowledge on talk pages, with a view to prompting further investigation, but it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Pay particular attention to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, which applies to talk pages as well as to articles: "Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page." Please, also remember that this may apply to some groups.

While normal mergers may be closed uncontroversially by any editor, because of the controversial nature of the article and the AFD, a request for admin closing will be made. --Mark Miller (talk) 08:02, 24 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Comment - For a closing editor or admin not to discount this !vote, arguments to oppose the merge must be within Wikipedia guidelines and should be a discussion about how to determine consensus on the merge proposal, not arguments about the content itself. Try not to simply reflect your opinion of the subject. Be as specific as you can about policy and guidelines. If you are unsure about specific policies and guidelines as a new editor, you can always remove your current opinion for the moment, and read the other arguments and links provided to get a quick overview of the pertinent ones to look at. As more arguments and links appear, someone may support the same view you have but perhaps worded better. You can always just agree with another editor's assessment by posting something along the lines of "Oppose per [editor's name]. You can even add more by stating anything specific in their argument that you agreed with.--Mark Miller (talk) 17:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't agree with this. Many of the articles that specifically discuss this term (Politico for instance), discuss the coining of the term itself instead of using it to describe a tangible, non-abstract idea. Because of this, it is in my view certainly a neologism. Buffaboy talk 04:35, 25 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Comment - Icewhiz, is it possible this is simply discussing or reflecting your view of the subject. Could you elaborate on a reasoning why the article need not be merged? Are you perhaps arguing notability?--Mark Miller (talk) 17:59, 24 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I actually misread the proposal and was responding to the Antifa suggestion, which I see as too narrow in scope. Regarding the proposal to merge alt right and alt left, well that would be akin to merging far left with far right, and makes even less sense. Alt left is a distinct concept and is widely used, so despite being new it should have a separate article. And probably the best thing to do witn this article is WAIT, and see what we have in a couple of months.Icewhiz (talk) 18:16, 24 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "that would be akin to merging far left with far right" – I do not agree. There is a far-left, and there is a far-right. There is not, however, any such thing as "alt-left;" that is merely a term invented by Trump in response to criticism of the self-identified alt-right. "Alt-left" wouldn't even exist as a neologism without the term "alt-right" having already existed and risen to prominence. Master of Time (talk) 18:21, 24 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

have you read? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alt-left#The_Alt-Left_already_existed_prior_to_reinvention — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.141.68.184 (talk) 00:56, 25 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

altleft was used YEARS before trump by the self identified altleft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alt-left#The_Alt-Left_already_existed_prior_to_reinvention 110.141.68.184 (talk) 00:46, 25 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alt-left#The_Alt-Left_already_existed_prior_to_reinvention 2001:8003:117E:6D00:4C6C:DF57:410C:23B9 (talk) 11:17, 25 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Note: the last revision of Alt-left submitted by the banned sock puppet appears to have no prose in common with the current version. CJK09 (talk) 19:10, 26 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • User:Zigzig20s Do you have some of those sources that make it notable? Everything I've seen merely theorizes upon it, says it doesn't exist, or is extreme-right or white-nationalist non-RS claiming that the centre-right and centre is the alt-left. By comparison to the alt-right being armed neo-nazis, white nationalists, and such, the alt-left would presumably be armed Marxists, communists, Sandanistas, etc., which might exist, but don't even talk English, let alone user that phrase. Nfitz (talk) 21:33, 26 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I see 20 RS already. We're not here to make judgement calls here. We simply relay content from reliable third-party sources.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The 20 in the article? I've opened several, and they discuss the term "alt-left", with phrases like "made-up" "there is no alt-left", etc. They might support that the term itself, is in use among fascists, but you are saying THE alt-left is notable. Which sources User:Zigzig20s make THE alt-left notable - because without an actual alt-left group, all that's left, is a merge to alt-right. Nfitz (talk) 07:52, 27 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm saying the phrase is notable as per weight of RS (20 here but I'm sure we could find more). We have Basket of deplorables and Binders full of women, so let's keep some perspective here.Zigzig20s (talk) 07:56, 27 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Those are metaphores. The first one was deleted at AFD - I'm not sure why it hasn't been speedied. The second hasn't been discussed in so long, I'm not convinced it would survive a merger discussion to the campaign now it's long forgotten. Also this is about an actual group - that doesn't exist. Where are these far leftists, that would be the equivalent to the supremacists, white nationalists, neo-nazis, and militias that we've seen at far-right rallies? While alt-left is notable, so was Beckham's right foot; however Beckham's right foot doesn't have it's own article, for it doesn't exist without Beckham - the same way the alt-left doesn't exist without the alt-right. Nfitz (talk) 07:43, 10 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alt-left#The_Alt-Left_already_existed_prior_to_reinvention — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:117E:6D00:34BB:C64A:BF90:EFDE (talk) 14:06, 29 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source for "movement"? Anti-fascist (and Antifa by extension) is standard left opposition to right wing populism. If anything "Alt-Left" is a casual attempt to rebrand Antifa with a neologism / pejorative. Koncorde (talk) 13:36, 28 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I was mentioning the link this article made to it here. But there are other souces like here and here. PackMecEng (talk) 14:47, 28 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Those sources suggest that when people say alt-left they are referring to Antifa, which we already have an article on. They could be used to support a redirect there, but they don't demonstrate that alt-left is anything other than a synonym for something we already have an article about. Fyddlestix (talk) 15:09, 28 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That is correct, the sources I listed say antifa is one of the groups that is associated with the alt-left. I brought them up as a notable example and expanded when asked to. Not that they are the alt-left or the only group with them. Which is why its own article is warranted, that it is a broad term for several groups. PackMecEng (talk) 15:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The articles you list, starting with the Salon, specifically say the use of "Alt-Left" makes no sense and then explain why. Koncorde (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I did not list a Salon article? I listed a The atlantic, Vox, and NY Times. The atlantic states the use of the term in relation to the alt-left but says there is not a "moral equivalence". Vox says "alt-left exists, it’s probably best represented by antifa". Finally NY Times mentions "centrist liberals have taken to using this term" for alt-left. Hope that clears it up for you, but again its a term used for describing not just antifa, but the larger group of the alt-left. PackMecEng (talk) 16:48, 28 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry, meant the Atlantic which is blatant in dismissing the link. You have left out the important "if" from your Vox quote, and the article is about Antifa and specifically says that people didn't know (nor did Trump) what he was talking about. Meanwhile you have avoided the bulk of the Times article that states "Researchers who study extremist groups in the United States say there is no such thing as the “alt-left.” Mark Pitcavage, an analyst at the Anti-Defamation League, said the word had been made up to create a false equivalence between the far right and “anything vaguely left-seeming that they didn’t like.”. I'll leave it at that. Koncorde (talk) 19:07, 28 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The "if" does not change the meaning. Also since the mention by Trump, it is pretty clear by RS sources, they know what it means now if they did not at the time. Which shows expanding and continued coverage. The Times article is pretty weak on it, probably not the best choice. But again shows RS coverage of the subject. So in summary, lots of coverage by reliable secondary sources, no longer a neologism, grown to a independent subject from Alt-Right with its own distinct groups covered that are not related to them. Ticks all the boxes for WP:GNG. PackMecEng (talk) 20:21, 28 August 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Asking "If aliens exist" is very different to stating "aliens exist". Your sources are still specifically all refuting the Alt-Left link, no matter how powerfully stupid someone is to repeat it. Koncorde (talk) 14:10, 19 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
At this point very few are refuting alt-left exists. For example here and here reguardless of your POV on how "powerfully stupid someone is to repeat it" ignoring the history of the term and how RS view it does not help. PackMecEng (talk) 14:32, 19 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

— Policypolicy (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Pickavage quote[edit]

Is this DUE, particularly for the lede? Thinking it is better in the body of the article...2600:1012:B045:6F26:74E3:53D:B921:3695 (talk) 17:48, 13 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

take a look at the edit summaries in the edit history. The source is at least valid and the quote is from a reputable academic. I was keen to revert it back to the body on reviewing the way that Somedifferentstuff worded it initially, but the user was quite insistent that it remain there so I reworded it a bit per wp:attribute. In its current form it is at least attributed, devoid of NYT editorializing and relevant to an understanding of the term. Should it be removed? Further cited? Flip a coin Edaham (talk) 18:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Somedifferentstuff: - what did I tell you ;) Edaham (talk) 18:07, 13 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I remember you specifically telling me that an IP with 2 edits would not be happy with your changes to my work ; ) Somedifferentstuff (talk) 20:08, 13 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If I'd left it as it was we'd have had up to nine IPs... some of them with up to four or five edits. Edaham (talk) 20:17, 13 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Did you hear the one about the IP who couldn't find their house because their address kept changing. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 20:37, 13 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Interestig that you can't be bothered to participate in the discussion at hand, but have time to discuss the fact that I edit from a cell phone (as I've stated multiple times). Curious if you have any commentary on the quote being UNDUE. 2600:1012:B04C:4EDD:EC38:434E:3AB6:808C (talk) 22:56, 13 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
why did the ip editor cross the road? To make his fifteenth vote in an.....censored:AGF Edaham (talk) 00:42, 14 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Interesting that no one is willing to discuss the issue at hand, but has time to talk about the fact that I edit from a cell phone (which Ive disclosed). Any comments on the Pickavage quote being UNDUE? 162.194.160.55 (talk) 19:25, 14 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well since we wrote it, clearly the two of us are comfortable that we've sufficiently satisfied policy to the point that we can put it there - I perhaps more tentatively so - as I think it requires further citations. An enormous number of the sources we have debate (and attempt to refute) the existence of an "alt-left", so it is certainly within due weight to address the topic of non-existence in the lede. Personally I'd like to see one or two more good quality sources, remove the attribution and return to something similar to the previous wording. I didn't notice your "disclosure", what's the name of your regular account with which you edit the encyclopedia? ... incidentally, did you hear the one about the IP editor who had fifty barnstars in his account? - he lost them all on the sock market....Edaham (talk) 20:05, 14 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not even sure what your comment means. I don't have an account - I edit from my cell phone and occasionally work/home computer. My understanding is this is entirely acceptable. If I am required to register an account in order for my edits to be taken seriously, then I suppose I can do so. Regarding the article, yes there are many sources debating the existence of the alt-left, just like there are many sources stating the term was coined back in 2016 by the left-wing. My intention from the beginning is to simply make sure the article doesn't state contentious opinions as fact in WPs voice. There is a decent amount of coverage for this term regarding its origins and whether it does or does not exist. Some of the sources are in conflict with each other. Is there a good reason as to why we can't represent these differing opinions, provided they aren't fringe? 23.120.44.158 (talk) 21:13, 14 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
you seem to be changing tack; first you were concerned about wp:due, now you are talking about wp:wiki voice. I think having a quote from an academic and researcher on the subject satisfies due. I personally added attribution, having had the same concerns about wikivoice. It sounds like you have a source to present containing a differing statement, which will pass wp:false balance because it is also from a similarly accredited academic or the like. Why don't you put it here in the talk page and then we can work out how to include it in the lede. If it's a new source we don't need a consensus for that, we can just follow wp:brd. The benefits of creating an account (or possibly a seventeenth), can be read about here Edaham (talk) 05:13, 15 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your advice is very good, I will put it here on the talk page. Regarding the "seventeen account" thing, not sure why you are convinced I'm pretending to be multiple accounts. If you notice, 90% of my edits have been to the talk page, not the article itself, and I've been pretty clear that it's been me every time on the talk page. Im genuinely asking you to AGF. Just because I am an IP does not mean I'm a vandal/sock. Thank you. 2600:1012:B007:CB14:E48C:AEF:7DC0:C6D1 (talk) 05:44, 15 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I was under no such conviction. I'm horrified that you might have thought I was referring to you as an item of foot aperatus! I'd simply gotten into the rhythm of suffixing my posts with a garment related quip. I will be sure to darn this hole in my otherwise unfrayed woolen.....sorry. Look forward to examining your stocking... source! I mean source. Edaham (talk) 06:51, 15 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am asking the question in good faith. Why are you convinced I am a sock? 2600:1012:B007:CB14:E48C:AEF:7DC0:C6D1 (talk) 07:04, 15 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I already told you I don't think that. What was the specific edit you wanted to make again? Edaham (talk) 07:19, 15 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for the benefit of the doubt. As you are obviously a more experienced editor than I, appreciate your willingness to discuss. This was an edit I attempted to make earlier. It is supported by the sources, let

me know your thoughts: (talk) 07:44, 15 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Actually, scratch the above. This was the quote I was originally looking for - it is from a Time Magazine article entitled "Why the 'Alt-Left' Is a Problem". I was thinking of placing it in the lede below the Pickavage quote: Claiming there is no “alt-left” because no one calls themselves “alt-left,” ignores the long, colorful history of political nicknaming. And claiming there is no “alt-left” because all leftists hate Neo-Nazis mistakenly defines the “alt-” modifier as being about racism not fanaticism. With 100 goons from the Left having attacked peaceful demonstrators from the Right as recently as this Sunday afternoon in Berkeley, we must stop viewing the growing epidemic of political brutality through myopic, partisan lenses. Let me know what you think. 2602:30A:2C2A:370:AC5C:7894:E929:DA9 (talk) 16:53, 15 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Any feedback or objection to placing this quote in the lede? 2602:301:772D:62D0:8459:26E1:98B8:79DE (talk) 21:54, 17 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
 not done proposal is unworkable per wp:Newsorg. Revised reason after googling your source: Quote seems to be an editorial comment. Also please save time by providing the actual link to your source with the proposal otherwise it just looks like wp:synth
I think we'll probably stay with the quote from an academic source. If there's nothing else, may I close the thread? Thanks! Edaham (talk) 01:51, 18 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for your input. One more question: Would the Time quote be suitable for the body of the article itself? I was also thinking about including something from this story, please let me know what you think (and thanks again for taking the time to give me feedback on this, it is truly appreciated). https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/03/why-the-alt-left-is-a-problem ETA: Sorry, one MORE question = Why is Time considered NEWSORG, and the New York Times considered academic? Just curious..(talk) 06:08, 18 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The new york times isn't considered academic. They are both news sources. as mentioned in the link I provided at wp:newsorg, news sources contain facts, which are drawn from events that actually happened and quotations from people who are notable authorities on subjects. They also contain editorial opinions which are written by the editorial staff themselves, or by people who write op-eds. The quotation we've used is from the NWT, but it comes from a researcher on the subject. This kind of quote is to be preferred over editorial pieces in which the editors themselves may opine and draw conclusions based on their feelings about a subject. I'll look at the other source you provided. Edaham (talk) 06:51, 18 September 2017 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Far-left politics[edit]

Should the Alt-left link change to the Far-left politics?Paul Lincoln (talk) 14:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]