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But Hungary didn't make inquiries about this battle enough. Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.185.112 (talk) 21:09, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Hungarian military experience (according to history of ottoman-hungarian wars): Turks could win only with minimum 3X preponderance. Because: 1. they are/were smaller shorter people, the tallness and lenghts of arms were important in hand to hand combats, 2. their asian Turk metal/steel-technology was too backward to make similar advanced armours as european armours According to Spanish, Turkish and French history books ( are you sure? ), the Turkish army was much smaller than the Christian. The Ottoman Empire had not expanded large enought to gather such forces. There were mostly Turkish nomads who participated in the war. They were not more than 10,000 maximum! The Christian army managed to gather ah much larger army, which was 100,000. The reason why they were som many is because they were allied! 40,000 were Hungarians, 40,000 were French, and 20,000 were Wallachians.
Hungarian military experience: Turks could win only over 3X preponderance.
According to a British historian the composing armies at the battle of Nicopolis were not more then 6000 each. Who wrote those numbers down (104000 and 100000)?, its simply not true. References to this article are missing ,therefore the numbers in this article should be taken with a grain of salt.
According to Barbara Tuchman, no English nobility took part in this battle.
Atiya is rather obsolote as a reference. If I have time, I will rewrite the article. 81.182.180.134 07:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The Christian army numbered 8000 (according to Mályusz)-25.000 (Rázsó) men (35.000 in the beginning of the campaign, but large forces was left in captured castles, p. e. 300 in Vidin). The Turkish army was about 35-40.000 men-strong (10.000 - Mályusz).
And of course the Ottomans had expanded alot they fielded 80,000+ men only 60 years later, check out my maps at Byzantine-Ottoman wars which are sourced from the Oxford History of Byzantium and the Compact History of the Wolr by THE TIMES. Tourskin 13:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
60 years later, the army consist of too many merceneries. there were almost as many christians as muslims, (especially venetians, serbians, although venice was at byzantine side, so many man came for looting constantinople and just looting, much of them are not paid). it is not the case for this battle. bayezit doesnot employ merceneries and turkomans in anatolia was against ottomans(infact bayezit was in war with other beghliks) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.179.138.117 (talk) 00:31, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Didn't you know that the Ottomans had a doctrine at the time that they would send 200 thousand troops on other campaigns in this era but when the Sultan personally led his army on the field and his life was on the line and the fate of the empire, he would only take an army of 10 thousand people. Don't even think what the other troops were doing at the time or the threat they could pose to the throne. Just repeat the information put forward by the Morgenthau family and your life will do well. 2A00:4802:302C:5700:D168:A3E0:39F8:23DE (talk) 20:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
The whole crusader force was only 25 000 men at best case. Atiya is an outdated source. In fact the whole article needs rewriting. 84.2.210.173 15:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Exactly, the numbers are wildly inflated. Sources tried to claim that the Poles and Lithuanians fielded over 3,000,000 men at Tannenberg. It's a medieval historian thing.
The Hungarian military historians nowadays are relatively sure, that the numbers of Ottoman troops were oversized again and again. Even in the 16th century, when the Ottoman Empire was more powerful than ever before (and later), the total strength of their armies attacking Hungary (Mohács, 1526) was ca. 60,000 troops (and not 100,000 or more). There is a new book about the decisive battle of the Hungarian-Ottoman wars between 1396 and 1526 – published only in Hungarian language -, which author’s opinion is, that the total number of the Ottoman forces by Nikopolis was about 40,000, with only 3,000 of janissaries. The strength of the crusaders could not be exactly reconstructed, but they were not more than 5-10,000 knights and other mounted soldier from France and Burgundy, 10-15,000 cavalry and infantry from Hungary and ca. 5,000 from Wallachia.
The cited book is:
Pálosfalvi, Tamás: Nikápolytól Mohácsig 1396-1526. Published by Zrínyi, Budapest, Hungary, 2005.
sorry for bad english.
regards.
-g- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.133.86.84 (talk) 21:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
that is just funny, good day "Hungarian" historians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.179.138.117 (talk) 00:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I am sorry but I am gonna have to take drastic measures here and replace these biased Turkish sources which aren't even in English with these neutral ones:
And use real numbers, not 60,000 men by Sigismund, thats ridiculous. Besides I can't analyse these sources in Turkish, so its not fair.! I will give 24 hrs for a response before taking action here.Tourskin 13:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The fact that these sources are in Italian and Turkish doesn't make them invalid.
Try to be a bit more polyglot - the world doesn't only consist of the English language.
You'll realize that your horizons of knowledge and pool of resources will instantly become greater.
By the way, the source for the numbers of the Crusaders (including 60,000 Hungarians) is Italian, not Turkish:
http://www.maat.it/livello2/turchia-europa.htm#bayazedI
Regards. Flavius Belisarius 22:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
why do you trust Hungarian sources than, the other side of this battle is hungary, so how do you know they are not biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.179.138.117 (talk) 00:39, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Sigismund returned back home on board of a Venetian ship, might I remind you.
The Republic of Venice and the Republic of Genoa were among the participants in the war, like the Spaniards, Swiss, and the Knights of St. John who were based in Rhodes (instead of Malta) back then. Not to mention the Poles, Bohemians and Scots.
The new figures are vastly incomplete.
Regards. Flavius Belisarius 13:48, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I found your sources, these websites show numbers that you seem to support: http://www.geocities.com/nbulgaria/bulgaria/nicop396.htm http://atheism.about.com/b/a/258182.htm
I couldn't find anything else to confirm these. I wouldn't mind getting someone else with more knowledge on this matter or a third party/opinion/research. In the meantime, I am gonna try to contact Thomas F Madden, A professor who wrote this book: and ask.Tourskin 14:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Very well then. Without trying to sound bitter, I can't really care anymore since you question my sources, and I can't defend them as well as I had hoped. By the way, I think the number of Ottoman Troops labelled as 20,000 should be changed too since this was suggested if the Crusaders numbered 16,000. Anyways, I was actually referencing Battle by R.G. Grant not geocites and in fact the figues that were preposed that I am opposing were from geocites. 100,000 on each side sounds like alot and the previous version of the article even said that the figures were exagerated. s for the Italians and the vast number of participants, remember that most only sent token forces in an effort to appease the Pope which would explain why my initial numbers were so much lower but I can't prove this so I think I iwll take my leave of this article for now until much more solid information can be found. Tourskin 17:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
16,000 is the total number of the Hungarian and French/Burgundian/English troops, not the total number of the Crusaders.
The "16,000" figure does not include the 10,000 Wallachians, 6,000 Germans and 15,000 Bohemians, Poles, Italians (from Genoa, Venice and territories of Italy under the Holy Roman Empire), Spaniards (Holy Roman Empire), Swiss, Scots and the Knights of St. John (who were back then based in Rhodes). Flavius Belisarius 01:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
"In fact the Crusaders probably numbered some 16,000 men. Traditional Turkish sources give the number of Ottoman troops as 10,000 but when their Balkans vassals were included they may have numbered around 15,000. One thing is clear, the forces that eventually faced each other outside Nicopolis were similar in number." David Nicolle, Nicopolis 1396: The Last Crusade, p. 37 Lysandros 00:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, new point - why does it say that teh Ottomans had half the numbers of the crusader force? Tourskin 19:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Hahaha... in serb wikipedia missing that Serbia fight together with ottomans against the
Christian powers!
Simply not true. See for yourself: http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%99%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0 . In that time Serbia was a vassal state to Ottoman empire, and Serbian prince Stefan Lazarevic had obligation to send Serbian forces in aid of Ottomans. That was an obligation, not free will, or interest. 79.101.90.113 (talk) 14:17, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
That might be true, Serbs usually helped to Ottomans by sending heavy cavalry, and Ottoman aristocracy consists of more Serbs then Turks when its rise of power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.179.138.210 (talk) 01:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Is Tuchman really a more credible source than the ones that were already cited? (Is she really a credible source for anything?) Adam Bishop (talk) 12:52, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Ok, a trip to the library allowed me to look at England and the Crusades by Christopher Tyerman; Nicopolis is on pp. 300-301, and he says the English probably weren't really there. Tyerman points to an article by Charles L. Tipton, "The English at Nicopolis" (Speculum 37 (1962)), which I can bring up on JSTOR when I have a chance. The original claim that the English had 1000 soldiers among the French forces seems to come from Aziz s. Atiya's book about Nicopolis, which gets it from the contemporary chronicles, who were apparently mistaken. I haven't read this particular passage in Tuchman, but it seems reasonable to assume that she got her info from Tipton. Does she have any notes or bibliography? Adam Bishop (talk) 03:25, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Now that I've read the Tipton article and the page in A Distant Mirror, I can see that Tipton is obviously her source. (It wasn't immediately apparent until I realized there are footnotes, of a kind, at the end of the book.) Tuchman's last sentence speculating on the reasons for the absence of the English isn't in Tipton though; actually it's almost the opposite of what Tipton says. Oh well. I'll add the Tipton stuff to the article when I get a chance. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:01, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
The phrasing "reluctant vassals" to describe the relationship between Transylvania and Hungary has been disputed. This is explicit in the citation source given for that paragraph, namely Tuchman page 553: "Part of the Hungarian army veered out to the north to gather in the reluctant vassal forces of Wallachia and Transylvania." It is quite possible that Tuchman's book, which is after all a general source for the century, condensed this point into an inaccuracy. In that case, it should be easy to find a source explaining the relationship between Transylvania and Hungary more accurately, and hopefully further explain the political tension that Tuchman alludes to but doesn't fully explain in her work. In the meantime, removal of this phrasing without a backing citation is prohibited by all manner of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Thanks, BanyanTree 14:19, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
It's easy to consider the stance of Transylvania. It belong to the hungarian parliament. Medieval Hungarian parliament had supremacy over kingship. Transylvanians had segment in Hungarian parliament, the decisions and laws of the parliament were unarguable in the country. --Celebration1981 (talk) 15:21, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
I tried to add coordinates for the battle site, but have my doubts about the correctness of the battle map considering the local terrain. See my remarks on the talk page of the file on commons [1]. I'd welcome your comments. Preslav (talk) 06:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Curious, this from the article: Chronicler Jean Froissart would declare. "Since the Battle of Roncesvalles when [all] twelve peers of France were slain, Christendom received not so great a damage." As we know, that Battle was Christian against Basques (also Christian). But I have read that many think that battle was a Christian v. Muslim encounter, so perhaps that explains the confusion. Cutugno (talk) 01:14, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't know how many thousands of times, the name "Catholic" is used, when a negative thing happened. The persons that fought in this battle against Islam weren't just Christians. They were Catholics and this fact must showed. Whitout Roman Catholicism , Christianism would be over more than one thousand years ago, by Islam.Agre22 (talk) 00:29, 25 September 2009 (UTC)agre22
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Please remove Kingdom Of Portugal from the list of Belligerents. Kingdom of Portugal was busy enough fighting for the Reconquista Crusade at their border, how could they fight in Eastern Europe? No source speak about Portugal Kingdom taking part in the battle of Nicopolis. 2A01:CB06:8079:B83B:A7D6:1CBC:8C9C:84A9 (talk) 13:40, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
When the Europe started creating a crusade many countries ventican, England, kingdom of Spain, Kingdom of castile, Kingdom of Bulgaria etc took part in it with their army. According to Islamic and Turkish history the strength of this crusade was 1200000 thousand to 1400000 thousand and ottoman army was 120000 thousand to 160000 thousand. Killj Arslan (talk) 12:22, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
and nearly 15,000 Dutch, Bohemian, Spanish, Italian, Polish, Bulgarian, Scottish and Swiss troops on the land
Add this part back:
Hello, in the combatants section of the article it shows England but in the article itself there's a whole paragraph about how English participation in the battle likley was a myth. Shouldn't them on the list at least be listed as "disputed"? Aleksandras Salenga (talk) 08:49, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Hi Göktuğ538538,
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Nicopolis&diff=prev&oldid=1173343307
please provide reliable academic sources which are readable and checkable
A fan website I do not think is a proper academic source: http://www.theottomans.org/turkce/osmanli_ordu/savaslar2.asp OrionNimrod (talk) 21:02, 1 September 2023 (UTC)