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I have no idea why a more than year old discussion about meatpupppetry would be an appropriate place to add new comments. If you would like to discuss new points, please discuss them in new, relevant sections - they'll be at most not noticed here. |
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There is current somewhat of an edit war occuring on Brian Leiter as a result of some referenced, but not academic, material being added that criticises the subject of the article. I have done a little Googling and there seems to be a fair body of people critical of Brian Leiter. Can someone more familiar with philosophy review the available material and if appropriate post a suitably referenced and WP:NPOV criticism section? The following may help: (Redacted) Lineslarge (talk) 21:32, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- completely unfamiliar with the guy and contemporary philosophers at large. however, stumbled across this link to a Statement of Concern from some NYU/MIT profs on Facebook: https://files.nyu.edu/dv26/public/Statement_of_Concern.html. came to check wth is going on to find the article completely blanking controversy. this seems quite odd. it must be possible to in some way document the fact there is a controversy about the guy whilst retaining a neutral (non-libellous) POV. 77.103.178.162 (talk) 05:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- I'm late to the party here, but I think that some of the language currently used in the controversy section should be toned down per WP:BLP and that the section as a whole should probably be shorter. If there is consensus, I will go ahead and prune. Sneekypat (talk) 13:42, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Sneekypat that "some of the language currently used in the controversy section should be toned down per WP:BLP and that the section as a whole should probably be shorter." It reads to me as if someone with some personal vendetta is editing into this page and it's lost its neutrality and objectivity. PhilosophyWiki (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2015 (UTC)PhilosophyWiki
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I accepted the latest revision by an IP, which removed claims sourced to a blog. I'm surprised this has been allowed to remain in the article, and I'm not going to reference RS, etc. Blogs are overwhelmingly not reliable. Please find some other source for all that. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 19:10, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
This page suffers from a serious lack of WP:RS sources. Much of it is either unsourced or sourced to blogs/other primary references. I know the individual is quite notable, so instead of removing content, I have generally just added improvement notifications such that the article can be worked on over time. If it was left as is though, I'd be tempted to AFD it, but think this is a softer step at this time.Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 02:32, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
Dealt with |
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As there has already in the past been concern about COI editing on this page, it is worth noting that a complete newbie editor seems to be editing in accord with the past suspected COI editor, and also even though completely new has somehow come to track this page and the page that is being asked to be merged into it. They were also created the same day as another editor with similarly focused edits. This bears watching. See that newbie editor's comments here, as well as his chest-beating as to the subject of this article being a respected person in his blog-like very long postings here. --Epeefleche (talk) 21:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
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This section has become very unreadable, and in my experience, little good comes out of sections this unreadable. I would invite anyone concerned about any of the issues discussed in this section to start new sections about them, preferably with a short description of the exact issue/problem you are concerned with. I know this is an unusual action, but suspect it will lead to greater productivity with less drama than any other action. | |||||||||
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This seems like a short enough entry to me that the lede can be made minimal and entirely uncontroversial with the rest of the, apparently controversial, details left to the body of the entry. I'm seeking consensus on reducing the text of the lede to simply: "Brian Leiter (born 1963) is an American philosopher and legal scholar." Lots of other living philosophers and legal academics have similarly short ledes.Sneekypat (talk) 20:01, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
"Above the Law" is an RS, as I said, with all the indicia of an RS, including an editorial staff. You've not supported your contrary notion. And there is no reason to think that it is not an RS for the subject being a Nietzsche expert. I trimmed the lede, while keeping all substance. You, in contrast, are seeking to delete from the lede material that summarizes what is in the text, and is of moment, that you don't like. That is whitewashing. And is not acceptable. Admin Gorman as well, most recently, restored to the lede what you sought to delete. The sourcing of what I have added is appropriate -- all RS. There is material in the article that is not properly sourced, and the article (as well as some specific unsourced sentences) is tagged for this malady. The unsourced sentences are subject to deletion if RS inline sourcing is not supplied. I've added RS refs to some previously tagged uncited sentences, but a number more remain. I know that Brian Leiter is the # 1 article you have edited at Wikipedia. And that your very first significant substantive edits were to Brian Leiter. But you do not own the article, and it is not appropriate for you to seek to whitewash it. As to your inexplicable baseless accusation - your "explanation" is nothing of the sort. You had a sentence followed by a ref -- that directly supported the sentence. You made a false accusation that I had failed to support the sentence. What in the world is that all about? (And I answered your comment on quotes; and no ... yet again ... the lede reflects in summary form what is in the text, so it belongs both in the lede and in the text). Last point -- Leiter's law blog, as much as you slavishly point to it (and to him), is not an RS. It is his personal blog; simply his personal musings, and certainly not an RS. Plus, though it is either here nor there, it's not as though he has a pristine reputation. Epeefleche (talk) 17:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
I just want to note my agreement with Sneekypat at the top. The lede should be short and the controversy section should not take up so much space, to an outsider it seems rather minor.HydeParkerforLife (talk) 19:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Epeefleche, I had suggested the trim because I hoped that a severe haircut might provide for some consensus, allowing us all to move on with our lives. You are, of course, right that the lede is supposed to summarize what is in the article, but it should be a brief summary and, frankly, I'm not sure that there's enough meat here to merit this long a lede. The style guide for writing a lede suggests two to three paragraphs for an article of this length. Two short ones seems appropriate to me, given the degree of notability of the subject and depth of the article. Right now we are dealing with a lede that is roughly as long as the ledes for Bertrand Russell and Ayn Rand, articles twice as long (and of significantly more prominent recent philosophers). I put the following, trimmed, two paragraph version forward for consensus—
—I would appreciate substantive thoughts on why this is not a sufficient summary of the article or insufficiently neutral. Sneekypat (talk) 14:22, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
As an outsider to philosophy, I find the one paragraph lede proposed above adequate and fair. I also liked the suggestion by Mr. Gorman elsewhere on this page that the controversy be integrated with the article rather than constitute a separate section. I leave that to the more experienced editors however.HydeParkerforLife (talk) 17:05, 25 June 2015 (UTC) |
Some of this material -- notably that supported by current refs 19-22 -- is simply Brian Leiter reporting on Brian Leiter, supported by references to Brian Leiter's non-RS personal blog.
If this were covered by an RS that would be fine to include. But inasmuch as it is only his blog finding his blog to be of interest, it doesn't meet our criteria for inclusion. I plan to delete it, on that basis. But wanted first to note as much here. --Epeefleche (talk) 04:17, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
If the self-published information contains an opinion as that fact "x" is the true as to a living person, we should not use the self-published information. Wikipedia is not -- and I'm sure you wouldn't condone it as such -- a place for bloggers to republish the fact that they have written on persons x, y, and z. Where no RS has covered it.
Where an RS has covered it, it's of course fine to reflect it ... with a proper, non-self-published, RS source. Otherwise, one can simply link generally to his blog in the EL section, and that's quite enough advertising for Mr. Leiter's blog. Nothing more is called for.
Frankly -- if no RS is covering it, it is not noteworthy enough to cover in the Wikipedia article. Wikipedians who, as you put it, "use their brain" -- as well as those who follow our guidelines, which were crafted by the consensus of Wikipedians using their brains, and should therefore not be easily dismissed as you seem keen to do -- can without effort see the wisdom of that. Why in the world you, of all people, seek to turn this Wikipedia article -- in this small part only, of course -- into an advertisement for Leiter's blog ... where no RS covers it ... escapes me. Surely you understand that we aren't here to promote as" notable enough to cover", material that no RS ever saw as sufficiently notable to even mention. (Conversely, if an RS covers it, it is appropriate to cover in turn).
This is very simple stuff. Epeefleche (talk) 07:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Laudatory language was added to the very first paragraph (comprising a full half of the very first paragraph), from two red-linked individuals. They do not even have Wikipedia pages. I'm in favor of us reflecting language from notable individuals. And it is possible that one of these is sufficiently notable to have a Wikipedia page, though no one has thought so and created it. But if he is not notable, his opinion does not belong in the lede. The same with the second fellow -- and there is no indication at all who that fellow is; it may be a student perhaps, which is nice, but certainly not the sort of think that we put into the first para of a subject, unless we have a COI perhaps and want to pump up the subject. --Epeefleche (talk) 08:38, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
I am boldly hatting this conversation for the time being. Until the larger issues are dealt with, this is pretty much a side issue that will just generate additional drama |
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There appears to be no support for merging the Gourmet Report entry with the entry on the subject. I think the Gourmet Report deserves its own entry, given its prominent place in academic philosophy for 25 years, as evidenced by the many refs that Epeefleche and others have added. I suggest that the current controversy section be merged into the Gourmet Report entry, since it centers around the subject's role (or former role) in that Report. Opinions of other editors? Thank you.Philosophy Junkie (talk) 14:30, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
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I think we may have arrived at consensus on the lede, above, thanks to Sneekypat. But right now the controversy section is too long, not faithful to the RSs, and too long relative to the subject's other work and career. Prior to the current edit wars, here is what the entry looked like: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brian_Leiter&oldid=662603591
Why should controversy section be longer than what it was on May 16? Since the article as a whole is now longer, it could be expanded somewhat.Philosophy Junkie (talk) 02:25, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
It's pretty clear that this section will result in no improvement to the article. Taking the liberty to close to WP:NOTFORUM etc. Discuss content issues in other sections please. |
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} How much of the controversy section should be reflected in the lede and are there issues with Reliable Sources and Neutral Point of View throughout the article? Sneekypat (talk) 21:09, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
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In the 3rd paragraph of the "controversies" section, it states " including 30 members of his 54-member Advisory Board, signed a statement in 2014 that demanded that Leiter relinquish control over the Report's management". Looking at the sources cited, it appears that both the numbers of members and the desired result differ from the sources given. I'm proposing this just in case I'm missing something here. [[User:|Mdann52]] (talk) 20:50, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Interesting convo here... I found the source that Epeefleche was referencing. Here's the primary source on Leiter's own blog from October 2014 ("Our original letter, which you have seen, was signed by 30 out of 54 members of the advisory board." "It is clear that the majority of the board thinks that the only solution is for you to step down." - https://web.archive.org/web/20141008031008/http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2014/10/pgr-update-2-1.html).
I had to link the archived version because Leiter apparently self-edited out the numbers in the Oct 2014 letters from PGR in the current version of his blog sometime after March 2015[1] but before September 2015 [2] (interesting timing huh) (https://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2014/10/pgr-update-2-1.html). Again, I think this demonstrates another reason that links to the blog: LeiterReports should not be used in this wikipedia article. Also, here's the secondary source that reported the numbers before Leiter self-edited the letter from PGR's board (http://dailynous.com/2014/10/03/leiter-responds/):
UPDATE: Leiter has updated his post with the text of the letters the PGR board sent him. Here is an excerpt from the second one:
In the interim we have had some discussion among board members of the various options. The consensus of the board members we have talked to is that we should request that you either step down from the leadership now and relinquish control of the PGR, or at least that you make a commitment to doing so by a specific date in the near future (with the consensus being that something like January 2015 would be the latest appropriate date, though the details could be discussed).
At this point, 30 board members have endorsed this request.
24.217.247.41 (talk) 01:29, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
There is another discrepancy in this article regarding the 2002 protest. The current wiki uses an outdated reference to 175 signatures (from Jan 2002) [3], whereas the total signatures was 287 (last updated Feb 2003) [4] [5] [6]. I propose that we change the wording to "almost 300" or "close to 300". 24.217.247.41 (talk) 01:53, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
@Mdann52: why the requested edit tag? The text you quote no longer appears in the article. Stickee (talk) 05:02, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
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A new section entitled "Criticisms and Controversies" should be added. It existed at one time, but seems to now have been subsumed under the heading PGR. Under this new section RS from the NYT, Boston Globe, Chronicle of Higher Education, and Buzzfeed News may be included explaining what led to his resignation as editor from PGR (i.e., the protests in 2002 and 2014 mentioned in the introduction to the wiki) and the later controversy over feces being sent in the mail to his detractors. For example:
Responding to notability issue. These events occurred three years ago, and no one has ever suggested they be added or added them until now by an editor who seems hostile to the subject. That suggests they are not notable. That is separate from the BLP problems which is the bigger issue IMHO.71.105.133.121 (talk) 13:47, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
[removed conversations now included in the 2016 mail incident section]
I have now corrected the factula error user 24.217.247.41 identifed and edited the section on blogging with quotes and sources suggested by that same user. I hope those changes are acceptable to others participating in this discussion.Philosophy Junkie (talk) 13:25, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
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The suggested text user 204 is responding to: "In 2016 Jenkins, along with three other vocal critics of Leiter’s (Sally Haslanger and David Velleman who publicized Leiter's emails to Jenkins, and Carolyn Jennings who critiqued Leiter's PGR's methodology) — each received an envelope full of human feces from someone named 'Peter Aduren.'[1][2] Leiter denied sending the packages and has attributed them to someone who must be trying to embarrass him, noting that one of the envelopes used his law school as the return address." [3] (preceding unsigned material added by user 24.217.247.41).
Totally agree with user 204.2.36.20 couldn't have said it better myself. Anyone with doubts about the bias of user 24.217.247.41 should look at some of his recent comments, which go well beyond the sources, and clearly assume the worst about the subject without support. See BLP notice at top of this page: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous."71.105.133.121 (talk) 14:43, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
24, thank you for moving these prior comments forward, it is good to have them in one place. I have added comments about the subject's combative rhetoric to the section on blogging in line with your suggestions. I agree that faculty being sent poop in the mail is, in some sense, notable, but the only question is whether it is notable here, and for the reasons stated well by user 204.2.36.120 it pretty clearly is not. I would also ask user 71.105.133.121 to be more restrained in disagreements with other users. Thank you.Philosophy Junkie (talk) 13:19, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
I am also in agreement with those who argued above against inclusion of this material, whose connection to the subject is tenuous, requiring speculation and innuendo improper for an encyclopedia. (Disclosure: I am a graduate of the Law School, but long before Professor Leiter's time and have never met him.)HydeParkerforLife (talk) 16:16, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
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1. Apparent whitewashing of the controversial behaviors and critical depictions of Brian Leiter from this wikipedia page.
2. Use of links to Leiter's own blog when making claims about third parties WP:SELFPUB [8] [9]
3. Noteworthiness of links to Leiter's blog for critiques when they have not been covered by secondary RS. [10]
4. Editors with potential undeclared COIs deleting talk page comments and information from the wiki [11] [12][13] [14] 24.217.247.41 (talk) 01:44, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
References
((BLP noticeboard)) 24.217.247.41 (talk) 01:51, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
From WP:BLPN
User:Philosophy Junkie continues to insist that the following phrase "who Leiter claimed had threatened him" in reference to Carrie Jenkins should remain in the article,[10][11][12] despite the fact that it is NOT supported by the referenced Chronicle of Higher Ed article[13] or any other WP:RS.
Philosophy Junkie claims a 1st person, self-published blog post by Brian Leiter, not included as a reference in the article, is an acceptable source for the claim.[14][15] However, I think the unsourced and unsubstantiated claim should be removed. Leiter's blog post is not an acceptable source for this claim about Carrie Jenkins because it violates the first two rules of WP:BLPSELFPUB: it involves claims about third parties and it is unduly self-serving, as I noted months ago on the talk page.
Is this a BLP violation against Carrie Jenkins and should Brian Leiter's blog post be an acceptable source for claims about 3rd parties "threatening" him? 24.217.247.41 (talk) 05:40, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Nil Einne, I agree with you re the use of "attack" or any other verbs that fail to provide the context of the blog post-- which was a pledge to behave civilly. Here's the wording that I proposed back in July for describing the 2014 incident that led to Leiter's resignation from PGR, but Philosophy Junkie blanket reverted any changes I made to the article. What do you think? 24.217.247.41 (talk) 00:35, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
In July 2014 Leiter sent an email to Carrie Jenkins, which was later posted online, calling Jenkins a "sanctimonious asshole" and threatening legal action regarding a statement she published online pledging to behave with civility in her professional life.[1] While Jenkins’s post made no reference to Leiter, Leiter read the statement as being about him, because at that time he was under fire on blogs in his field for his recent harsh rebuke of a critic of his rankings.[2] In September 2014, more than 600 philosophers signed a statement describing the email as "derogatory and intimidating" and declining to volunteer information for the Philosophical Gourmet Report while it was under the control of Leiter.[3] In October 2014, Leiter agreed to step down as editor of PGR, after a majority of the advisory board asked for his resignation. [4][5]
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