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A parasite called the guinea worm has to be slowly wound out of the body twist by twist around a stick or rod. If just pulled the worm will break in two and die, causing a fatal infection. This was discovered long ago,perhaps thousands of years ago, and is thought to be what the Caduceus symbol for medicine represents. --Mike Spenard 02:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
There is also good reason to believe that the origin of the caduceus could be from the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament to Christians). In Numbers 21:4-9, Moses brings a curse of snakes on the Israelites. He removes the curse by placing a bronze serpent on a staff, which the victim of a snake bite can touch or just look at and be healed. (( Indeed the Staff with a serpent was very symbolic of Yeshua the Messiah, and cleansing from impurities. This was adopted by pagan culture all the way to central Europe. The mythological representation is in order to parallel Hebrew Scripture in the First Covenant(Bible).
Submitted by Birney Dibble, M.D.
Quote from article: "The number eight is important to the practicioners of judicial astrology." I clicked the link looking for details on that, but the article doesn't mention the figure 8 at all. If it really is important, perhaps someone could/should add the relevant information there? Retodon8 12:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
(UTC)--65.5.181.168 21:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)--65.5.181.168 21:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)--65.5.181.168 21:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
This article has now been restructured to put the confusion between the caduceus and the rod of Asceplius beyond doubt. The use of the caduceus has no basis in medicine and using it in this way is simply incorrect (if widespread, especially in the US). For more info, please read the relevant sections in both articles! Owain.davies 16:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I looked on the Iris(Mythology) page and saw that she apparently is also associated with the caduceus. If this is true, than it should probably be noted in this article, if not, than I'll edit it out of her page. I've never been able to find much info on Iris, but maybe someone else will have better luck. ---24.192.224.242 16:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)Hermesscholar
I was taught as a child that mythical Hermes was the deliverer of healing, his speed essential to efficacious remedy. As an adult, that myth (excuse the oxymoron) rings true, and Hermes' iconography appears to bear out his association with healing from the time of the origin of his myth. In point: Hermes, identified by his Caduceus, appears on many extant lekythos, typically with Athena. [1] It never made sense to me that lekythos were for storing simply oil. If they stored oil-based remedies (aromatherapy oils in base, to put a too-fine modern point on it) that makes much more sense to me, and what better label for such remedies than Hermes and Athena (that is speed and wisdom which sounds like a pictogram for "health aid" or "remedy" to me). Even though the caduceus (as the identifier of Hermes and hence of medication) was a symbol of healing, it was not originally serpents at all, but a modified herders' tool. That is clear on many lekythos, at least until near the 4th Century BCE. I think the upper part of the caduceus was made into intertwined snakes and surmounted by wings when ancient druggists expanded its use from an identifier of medication to also include the makers of medication; the tame (intertwined) snakes representing medicine manufacture (venom and snake fat [true snake oil--see Wikipedia entry for snake oil, where meaning as bogus from false claims and no actual snake oil in product] were early raw materials in medication manufacture), and the wings (also a symbol of Hermes, but hitherto attached to his boots and maybe his hat) added as well to indicate quick relief. Once the snakes-and-wings caduceus became the norm as a symbol for both drugs and druggists, it is easy to see how it also became the symbol of ancient battlefield medics (the equivalent of today's EMTs), deliverers of medication and speedy healing, and, when a person was beyond cure, staying with them until death (Hermes guiding souls to the Underworld). The adoption by American military physicians of the caduceus is entirely in keeping with its symbolism from ancient times, and the caduceus evolution in America to representing the field of medicine generally is in keeping with the caduceus' historical medical continuum. I would love it if someone were to edit this article in keeping with my thinking, above. To me, it is a Yankee Doodle to claim that military physicians--by definition precise, well-educated people--made an ignorant, mistaken choice for their symbol, and the insult needs to be corrected.2606:6000:669C:4700:290A:1591:8945:B59D (talk) 09:00, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
I think calling the medical use of a caduceus a "mistake" as this article repeatedly does is a violation of NPOV. Certainly "confusion" is applicable, and it's true the caduceus was not traditionally a medical symbol, but it has been used as such in North America for over a century now. Since we're an encyclopedia, it's time to be descriptive about its use and not prescriptive. The caduceus is legitimately used by many medical groups in North America, albeit historically inaccurate. I myself am the manager of a free clinic in Kentucky and we use a caduceus in our symbol, not because we're ignorant or mistaken, but because it's commonly recognized. I'll change the article slightly to reflect this. - Draeco 04:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't this this issue is quite settled. There's a whole section regarding the confusion which reasonably presents two sides of the argument whether or not the caduceus is a valid medical symbol. However, in the summary, it is written, "The caduceus is sometimes erroneously used as a symbol for medicine." I think using "erroneously" violates NPOV. Nytewing07 (talk) 03:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Um, the Caduceus *is* the medical symbol. Hermes is, among other things, the messenger of death. It is only right that the occupation dealing most directly with death should have the Caduceus as its symbol. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.207.247.50 (talk) 03:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Um, the Caduceus is a symbol sometimes erroneously used to signify medicine or medical practice. As has been pointed out above, cultural literacy (or rather its absence) comes into play. I'll grant that the symbol does accurately represent much of contemporary medical practice, but that's not because it is a symbol of medicine - quite the contrary. Such deeply satisfying irony will elude most, but not all readers. In any case the error is a fact, while attempts to defend the howling mistake - particularly those invoking its current use as a medical symbol - are usually rather transparent face-saving attempts on the part of those who deploy the symbol in error (why change your sign and print new cards when you can instead edit the Wikipedia article and claim it isn't an error at all?). As I mentioned, the exquisite irony apparent in the fact that the wrong symbol is used to represent medicine, and yet it is the right symbol because it's wrong, will be lost on most... Much like the irony in the claim that it is "the" medical symbol because doctors deal "most directly with death". Happily, including such revisionist twaddle would require citation. In the meantime, the content in this article is balanced and accurate enough without it. --Picatrix (talk) 05:31, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
The meaning of words and symbols change with times and to stubbornly refuse to admit that violates NPOV (even if based on an original mistake). Modern medical organizations do in practice use the caduceus as a symbol representing medicine, and have been doing so for at least the past century. They use the symbol in large part as it is well recognized as a symbol of medicine (especially in America). A neutral rephrasing would be of the sort: "The caduceus is sometimes used as a symbol for medicine. This modern usage has no relation to the meanings of the original symbol based on Greek mythology. This likely arose from erroneously confusing the caduceus with classical symbol of medicine, the rod of Asclepius, which has only a single snake and no wings." For example, check the definition of caduceus at m-w.com: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/caduceus "an insignia bearing a caduceus and symbolizing a physician" or look at other results from google dictionary: http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en%7Cen&q=caduceus&hl=en . A significant number of definitions note its modern connotations are associated with medicine, with no connotations of this modern usage being incorrect. To continue with the current phrasing, please provide citations demonstrating that modern usage of the caduceus (and not its origin) is truly erroneous. Would it be correct to go to the article for swastika and claim all meanings associated with Nazism are erroneous as they aren't true to the pre-20th century meanings? Jimbobl (talk) 15:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The article already indicates that the caduceus is a symbol that is sometimes used to represent medicine or medical practice. Regardless, as another editor observed: at the end of the day an error is an error. Furthermore, the caduceus is still frequently used to represent commerce, entirely in keeping with its associations, as has already been pointed out in the article. The 'argument' you are attempting to present re: NPOV comes down to this: a mistake has been made, and some people keep on making it, so let's not call it a mistake. This is as laughable as it is insubstantial. As for your mention of numerals, one feels compelled to point out that the name of the numerals in your example have changed, not the meaning or significance of the numerals. Hence the example is not relevant: we are not talking about someone calling the Rod of Asclepius a Caduceus (or vice versa, though this mistake is often made as well); both symbols are here called by their proper names, it is their significance that is in question. The Hindu-Arabic numerals 0-9 continue to represent the numbers we call one, two and three, regardless of whether we term the system of numeration Arabic, Hindu-Arabic, or Hindu. People who deploy the caduceus as a symbol of medicine are implicitly indicating that the symbol is the symbol of medicine (i.e. they use it to indicate medicine or medical practice), despite the fact that it has a long history as a symbol of commerce (and is broadly attested as having that significance to the present day). As for atoms, again we have a comparison that is not apposite, as no other, more accurate alternative for the term "atom" continues to be used alongside it - and in any case here we have an example of a change in scientific knowledge that expands our understanding of the thing we call an atom, and have always called an atom.
As Taylor points out in White Coat Tales: Medicine's Heroes, Heritage and Misadventures (pp 207-208):
Friedlander has written an informative book on the symbol of medicine, tracing the missteps leading to the current confusion. Most of the mistakes occurred in the 19th century, and a key error took place in 1871 when the U.S. surgeon general designated the caduceus as the seal of the Marine Hospital Service, destined to become the U.S. Public Health Service in 1889. Gershen (p. 45) states that the change was for aesthetic reasons, whereas Friedlander attributes the adoption of the caduceus by the Marine Hospital Service "because of its relationship with merchant seamen and the maritime industry." Then in 1902, the Army Medical Corps also adopted the caduceus as its symbol, citing the fact that Hermes the messenger at times brought a message of peace.
We may arguably say that the current heraldic muddle thus arises with the surgeon general's 1871 decision. Today, there are calls to clarify the symbol and to move to a uniform use of the Aesculapian staff to symbolize medicine. One group calling for the use of the historically correct symbol is the Minnesota Medical Association, whose director of communications is quoted as saying, "If it's got wings on it, it's not really the symbol of medicine; some may find it hard to believe, but it's true. It's something like using the logo for the National Rifle Association when referring to the Audubon Society". [Emphasis Added]
--Picatrix (talk) 09:57, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Stongly agree. Although it may have originally been a mistake, this symbol is generally accepted as a medicine symbol. Many state health departments even use the symbol on their seals. 71.100.1.129 (talk) 14:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
The choice of the caduceus was no mistake or confusion between the caduceus and the staff of Aesculapius, but you have to understand the history behind its selection. It was first used on the half chevron of Hospital Stewards in 1851 (War Department General Orders 53, 1851). At that time there was no association between the caduceus and medicine. Ten years later the U.S. Army Medical Department was using the staff of Aesculapius on their coat of arms concurrent with the use of the caduceus on the Hospital Stewards half-chevron. The caduceus was chosen because there was no symbol to identify a Soldier providing a non-combat function on the battlefield - the First Geneva Convention adopted the Red Cross in 1864, and the U.S. didn't become a signatory until 1882. The herald's staff of Hermes and Mercury was chosen because it had been used in the past as a truce symbol for negotiation. The caduceus was used as a symbol by the Marine Hospital Service (incorporated a caduceus into its seal in 1871, designed by John Woodworth, a former Army doc), later the Public Health Service. Woodworth designed the seal, again, before there was any association between the caduceus and the practice of medicine, aside from Woodworth's personal association with the Hospital Corps. In 1902, the U.S. Army Medical Department adopted the caduceus as the branch insignia for Medical Corps officers and later adopted altered versions of the caduceus for its other officer branches (current branches), which were just coming into existence at that time. By the First World War, the caduceus had become the symbol of Army Medicine, who began referring to it as "The Medical Caduceus" (see http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cph.3g07576/) but still not widely associated with the general practice of medicine in the United States (which is why they had to specify that the caduceus was medical). Many civilian doctors joined the Army, wore the caduceus insignia on their collar, and returned home. When they did, they used the caduceus they had worn while in the Army to advertise their medical practices. Many more civilian doctors were enrolled in the Volunteer Medical Service Corps (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1593847/) which issued a modified caduceus pin to its members (a caduceus with VMS across the top). Thus, many members of the medical profession who didn't serve in the Army Medical Department during the war associated the caduceus not with non-combatant status (the herald staff of Mercury) but with medical service. The use of the caduceus by civilian physicians led to the association of the caduceus and medicine in the general (American) public's mind. The choice of the caduceus did not result from error, but rather from a series of events that led to a divergence from the symbol's original associations. Definitions change, but you've got to look at the history to understand why they changed.Eltrace (talk) 18:35, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Some input from a semiotics expert would be welcome here. Way too much attention paid to alleged origin of this supposed wretched misuse of a hallowed symbol and virtually nothing on its current medical and nonmedical use by government agencies,etc. Who exactly is harmed by this "misappropriation" and why is there such a focus on the obscure nineteenth century origins of the usage? This is inappropriate when it leads to so much thinly-veiled editorialising and such a perfunctory treatment of twenty-first century usage. And BTW are the editors quite certain that this dreadful error is perpetuated only in the US? As I said under "Caduceus As a Symbol of Medicine": It's a meme. People get it. Get over it.68.178.50.46 (talk) 03:52, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
References
The 'See Also' section of this article provides a link to Enki with the claim that Enki was 'a Sumerian god whose symbol was 2 serpents on an eagle-winged stick, which was already an ancient symbol before Enki's cult arose.' However, visiting the Enki page reveals no mention of the caduceus or any kind of staff or stick like it. In fact, a perusal in the Talk:Enki page reveals that all mention of the caduceus has been removed from that page due to lack of citation. --AntonChanning (talk) 14:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
"A 1992 survey of American health organisations found that 62% of professional associations used the rod of Asclepius, whereas in commercial organisations, 76% used the caduceus."
Can someone clarify the difference here between professional and commercial organizations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.18.96 (talk) 18:53, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I have heard a rumor that the caduceus was originally mistaken for the proper medical symbol after it was used on early ambulances, because of its connection with speed. Has anyone else heard this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.69.190.75 (talk) 01:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the illustration of bottles of "Caduceus" wine and was reverted by the User below, who left the following unsigned message at my Talkpage:
The article on Caduceus includes a section discussing examples of usage. This section notes universities, investment houses, and a video game. Do you feel these are advertisements as well? What makes one "example of usage" an advertisement while another is not? Besides the addition of a photograph, what makes my addition different?
Adding a picture and one line of text (without external links or commentary) in an appropriately labelled "examples of usage" section is not an advertisement by any stretch. If I had linked to external websites, online stores, or reviews about how yummy the wine is, then you'd be correct about advertising. But I did not. I've reverted your edit. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shift6 (talk • contribs) 16:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC) Template:Unsigned: Autosigned by SineBot
Here is a link to the relevant wiki policy: WP:Spam. Let me highlight what I believe are the salient points as to why this is not an advertisement.
From the above, "Articles considered advertisements include those that are solicitations for a business, product or service, or are public relations pieces designed to promote a company or individual. Wikispam articles are usually noted for sales-oriented language and external links to a commercial website. However, a differentiation should be made between spam articles and legitimate articles about commercial entities." My single line of text and photograph did not do any of these things: neither solicited business, nor promoted a product, nor contained sales-oriented language, nor contained external links.
Also from the above, "Elements of articles about products or services with brand names can also be combined under a common topic or category to facilitate unbiased and collaborative information by including information about the competition and about different alternatives." Thus, instead of summary deletion, perhaps my one line could have been rewritten from a NPOV. Except that it already contained a NPOV, therefore didn't really need rewriting in the first place.
Now let me review, from the above link, the section "How not to be a spammer", and I will list the things that my one line of text and photograph again did not do. "Wikipedia is not a space for personal promotion or the promotion of products, services, Web sites, fandoms, ideologies, or other memes." Nope. "If you're here to tell readers how great something is, or to get exposure for an idea or product that nobody's heard of yet, you're in the wrong place." Nope again. And actually I'm frustrasted again and not going to write any more. I've made my case based on the clearly defined policy of wiki, rather than a couple wiki users "feelings".
I'm honestly, actually, non-trolling-ly curious how, for example, Owain.davies see "unwarranted commercial plugging" in my single line of text or photograph. Which part? Where's the plug?
Vote to keep, natch. --shift6 (talk) 18:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I have attempted to add a few details to this article, as well as to clean up the continuity of style. I have removed the subsection on meaning because it was entirely without citation and was a mishmash of speculative and syncretistic "occult" interpretation. I have no problems if a section on the meaning of the symbol is replaced provided that it contains citations from reliable sources and does not zig-zag across the entire esoteric spectrum. --Picatrix (talk) 15:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
The STAFF OF HERMES Unicode character (U+269A) listed in the article as the "lexicographical form" shows up in my browser as a big old question mark. This character is clearly not universally supported. Can/should this be replaced with an image instead, perhaps in a table with the other 2 symbols? Sjb0926 (talk) 19:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
This got removed for irrelevance:
I'm not clear why. Incidentally, I've previously heard this passage quoted in conjunction with the more ascensional John 3:14 as another caduceus/kundalini tie-in. K2709 (talk) 08:06, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Excellent addition!! I've moved the prose around a bit to make it better I think -and added the formal "no connection" which I think needs to be there to maintain NPOV since, as far as I know, this is just a coincidence in terms of symbology (especially since actual images of the chakras etc. from historical texts look nothing like the caduceus!). But wonderful addition to make the article more complete.--Cpt ricard (talk) 03:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
I disagree. The citation for this business is sadly wanting (Llewellyn cannot be considered an academically reputable publisher by any stretch of the imagination). Further, what place does "yogic interpretation" have in an encyclopedia article about the historical symbol called the Caduceus? The association of the Caduceus symbol with kundalini and 'yoga' (presumably the author means, specifically, work with pranayama, or more specifically, swara yoga, for those in the know...) rests on no attested historical basis. The number of chakras recognized in various systems of course varies (e.g. 7 in a Tantric context, 5 in a Buddhist, etc.) and the route of ida and pingala winds around the spine (in some interpretations or traditions) while sushumna is represented as a central 'channel' running up the spine. These channels do not always pass through 'subtle centers' and indeed, when they do, the resulting diagram looks nothing like the Caduceus. If we accept this slapdash sort of 'jeepers that's cool' free association and syncretism we might as well add a section on 'yogic interpretation' to articles discussing the DNA double-helix. If the editor who placed this content really feels it belongs in an encyclopedia I suggest that he or she cite it properly, and put it somewhere where at least a weak case for its inclusion can be made, like in articles that discuss kundalini, etc. It doesn't belong here in it's current form, and I doubt that even if more cheesy citations were found it would belong here. I'm removing it. --Picatrix (talk) 15:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Just a few points:
I'm not citing a publisher, I'm citing a recognised, award-laden authority on an non-academic subject.
Also, it's practically the definition of a symbol that it's an abstraction of its meaning rather than a precise diagram.
The "Yogic interpretation" title is inaccurate really. The Gardiner reference argues that kundalini was the original inspiration for esoteric circles that designed the caduceus, ouroboros, etc, not an interpretation. To perpetuate them but keep the knowledge they codified hidden from the mainstream, alternate interpretations were deliberately encouraged. Your allegations of cheesy syncretism are therefore exactly what they must have hoped for. :^)
I don't have time to research this to death, but just to keep things moving here's an article describing a historical basis for this association: "The double serpent on the staff was solely a representation of the kundalini coursing up the body" There's sources of all kinds stating direct relevance, so deletion isn't appropriate. K2709 (talk) 22:15, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
It is not our place as WP contributors to declare anything an "error". We may, however, cite experts or other reliable sources who call something erroneous. I won't edit war over this, if I'm reverted, but I do hope that we can make a neutral article, rather than one which is prescriptive.
It seems the US Medical Corps decided they wanted two serpents instead of one. Well, that's their choice. Now, if anyone wants to come up and say it's a wrong choice, I suggest we report the fact that X called Y "wrong" about Z - rather than saying that Z is wrong. That's all. --Uncle Ed (talk) 14:19, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for sharing your personal opinion Uncle Ed. But I have to ask, first of all, in reference to your posting on the Rod of Asclepius talk page, who are the articles 'owners'? This remark sounds rather like an insinuation, which would seem to be counterproductive. And why do you write "if the article 'owners' object to our being neutral on this"? [emphasis added] Is this use of the possessive pronoun "our" in this passage an instance of a royal "we", an editorial "we", or both? In any case such nosism raises questions about the writer's rhetorical agenda. Happily, I have no mouse in my pocket and can therefore refer to myself in the first person rather than conjuring illusory ranks of aggrieved editors, interested only in neutrality, blocked in their noble pursuit by the selfish interests of the article's 'owners'.
Beyond indicating my personal impatience with this kind of rhetorical 'set-up', I'd like to ask you if you can provide more substantial support for your assertion that NPOV editorial policy prohibits affirmative statements of fact. I frame the question in this way because:
1. The caduceus was not generally associated with healing or medicine, and notable and verifiable citations have been provided establishing this.
2. The caduceus was generally associated with theft, trickery, eloquence, lies and commerce, and notable and verifiable citations have been provided establishing this.
3. Most specialized studies have explicitly remarked upon the apparent mistake or error in adopting the caduceus as a symbol of medicine, and notable and verifiable citations have been provided establishing this.
It has therefore been established that the use of the caduceus to signify medicine, medical practice, and/or the healing arts is a notable and verifiable error, without recourse to original research. It is therefore possible to make a positive statement of fact: the use of the caduceus to symbolize medicine is an error. When I reread the NPOV guidelines just now I came upon the following: "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves." and "A fact can be asserted without simon-says inline-text phrasing."
If you really are on a crusade to remove affirmative statements of fact then why not do a search for the terms "erroneously" and "error" on Wikipedia and start with uses that are not supported by extensive citations and balanced with presentations of alternative views (unlike in this article). You'll find (as I just did in doing the search) that if affirmative, positive statements of errors of fact are in violation of NPOV guidelines it's rather curious that there are so damned many of them...
I also cannot help but note that while you claim NPOV is violated by asserting that the caduceus is erroneously used to symbolize medicine, you fail to offer any citations that show it is not an error. Just to make sure it's clear that I'm not offering personal opinions as statements of fact, I'll offer some citations (and invite you to do the same, in the hopes you'll share more than your unsupported personal opinion):
"an entirely erroneous conception of what in fact is the emblem of the healing art." Stuart L. Tyson, "The Caduceus", in The Scientific Monthly, Vol. 34, No. 6, (Jun., 1932), pp. 492-498
"The majority of medical opinion now favors the use of the Aesculapian rod as a medical symbol." […] "The use of the caduceus in medicine I believe to have originated in a confusion between it and the Aesculapian rod." Bernice Engle, "The Use of Mercury's Caduceus as a Medical Emblem", in The Classical Journal, Vol. 25, No. 3, (Dec., 1929), pp. 204-208
"Friedlander has written an informative book on the symbol of medicine, tracing the missteps leading to the current confusion. Most of the mistakes occurred in the 19th century, and a key error took place in 1871 when the U.S. surgeon general designated the caduceus as the seal of the Marine Hospital Service, destined to become the U.S. Public Health Service in 1889. Gershen (p. 45) states that the change was for aesthetic reasons, whereas Friedlander attributes the adoption of the caduceus by the Marine Hospital Service "because of its relationship with merchant seamen and the maritime industry." Then in 1902, the Army Medical Corps also adopted the caduceus as its symbol, citing the fact that Hermes the messenger at times brought a message of peace. [...] We may arguably say that the current heraldic muddle thus arises with the surgeon general's 1871 decision. Today, there are calls to clarify the symbol and to move to a uniform use of the Aesculapian staff to symbolize medicine. One group calling for the use of the historically correct symbol is the Minnesota Medical Association, whose director of communications is quoted as saying, "If it's got wings on it, it's not really the symbol of medicine; some may find it hard to believe, but it's true. It's something like using the logo for the National Rifle Association when referring to the Audubon Society". [Emphasis Added] Robert B. Taylor, White Coat Tales: Medicine's Heroes, Heritage and Misadventures, Springer, 2008, pp 207-208
"The caduceus' continued association with medicine is based on flimsy and pseudo-historical research." Gerald David Hart, "Asclepius: The God of Medicine", The Royal Society of Medicine Press, 2000, p237
As noted in The Journal of the American Medical Association, v. 245, 1981, p1730 "The caduceus is mistakenly used by many, most notably the US Army, as the symbol of the medical profession."
"Though the caduceus has long been accepted as a device to represent medicine, it is the staff and serpent of Asklepios which have the more ancient and authentic claim to be the emblem of medicine" The Oxford Illustrated Companion To Medicine, 2001, p262
"It is hard to trust a profession that cannot even get its symbols straight. Most physicians in the United States think that the symbol of their profession is something called the caduceus. But this is actually not true. […] Historians have discovered that someone in the U.S. Army Medical Corps mistook the caduceus for the Aesculapion and introduced the Medical Corps' symbol at the beginning of the twentieth century. Soon thereafter, everyone in the United States was emulating the mistake." Daniel P. Sulmasy, A Balm for Gilead: Meditations On Spirituality and the Healing Arts, Georgetown University Press, 2006, p55
In Modern Veterinary Practice, v.47 (7-14), 1966, p102 we read "So how did the caduceus come to have (presumed) medical significance? It was all a mistake."
to this may be added Walter J. Friedlander, The Golden Wand of Medicine: A History of the Caduceus Symbol in Medicine, Greenwood, 1992, which is a book length treatment of the error under discussion. Bold emphasis added throughout citations. --Picatrix (talk) 17:45, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Assuming good faith, one issue is that lots of physicians and health professionals presumably see this article. The article contains an assertion of an error that many of the aforementioned professionals might take issue with. In such a situation it's easy for a reader to feel as though he or she is "being told" something by a Wikipedia editor. It's easy to claim editorial bias or POV peddling. It's easy to say that the manifest fact that the symbol is used ("erroneously" or not) to represent medicine makes assertion of error in its deployment (at best) pedantic or (at worst) manifestly absurd. Furthermore, Uncle Ed's suggestion is not unreasonable. What does it matter if we attribute the observation of error to third parties?
Answer: We have many citations from reputable sources both academic and professional, both dated and current, positively and explicitly asserting error. No comparable group of citations exists to support the view that it's use is not an error. If such citations can be supplied someone will hastily edit the article to reflect them. In their absence we are left to decide whether a lot of people making a mistake in the US warrants changing the phrasing of the article to suggest that there are many points of view on this issue. But we're talking about an encyclopedia based on verifiable citations (Western Academic Textual Tradition). Every 'argument' in favor of backing off from phrasing like "error" or "mistake" that I've seen thus far is based on policy arguments (NPOV etc.); not one is based on citations. Keep it simple folks. All it takes is reading the article to see that the 'alternative' views (which are presented and cited therein) amount to a bunch of old apologia pro, all of which dates from before 1930. No editor has thus far presented material that attests anything like an open academic debate or continuing discussion. A few guys prior to 1930 summarized the crappy old arguments for it being a legitimate medical symbol and then established that it simply wasn't. Tweaking the wording to explicitly state only that a third party or parties has asserted that it is an error leaves a gap of expectation that implies ongoing debate that simply is not there. Again, if anyone can provide citations of any quality I'll be happy to abruptly do an about-face. If there is some policy that I am in ignorance of, or if there's some fear of legal liability, please remedy my ignorance and be explicit about it. But attributing the only current citable view to third parties in the absence of any current citable opposing view seems more Rhetorical Stratagem than prudent editorial strategy. --Picatrix (talk) 22:46, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Let's all just slow down. I posted a compromise that I hope will work. In the meantime, I have to say that Uncle Ed's tactic of simply ignoring the issues raised on the discussion page is really frustrating. I and others have raised any number of points here, and this person continues to cite (ambiguous) policy instead of citing references. What's with the tactic of just ignoring the points raised in my posts? Or is it just that he/she didn't bother to read them? --Picatrix (talk) 16:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Owen, your use of "all be it" is erroneus. It's "albeit". I think all of this emphasis on an excessively prescriptive viewpoint (and we are talking about linguistics here, of a sort) and this safari after the remote origins of this twuly,twuly dweadful misunderstanding have led to a fussy and distorted couple of articles. As for the discussion: ditto. Full disclosure: I call "football" (insert gasp) "soccer". So sue me.68.178.50.46 (talk) 04:15, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Owain, that is. Hope it doesn't start an argument a century hence.68.178.50.46 (talk) 04:20, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
The Customs Services of the German Democratic Republic (german: Zollverwaltung der DDR) had used the Caduceus - how do you say in english? - as a "Symbol" or "Embleme"? (Sorry, I am not a native english speaker), see de:Zollverwaltung der DDR and de:Datei:Verdienstmedaillen der Zollverwaltung der DDR DZM.jpg. May I ask you to put this piece of Information (with the picture) into this article? I'm afraid, my English is not good enough for that. Thanks. --Lkl ★ 20:33, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
For some reason, it is difficult to see and click on the categories at the bottom of the page. Is there a problem with the formatting? Eagle4000 (talk) 16:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
So what if around 1902 some people in the US "mistakenly"(?) or "erroneously"(?) used two snakes instead of one? The fact is that the caduceus and the rod of Asclepius are closely related throughout history, and likely share a common origin. This is much more important than driving home the point over and over again that it is a "mistake" to use two snakes when symbolizing medicine.
Annoyingly, this nerdy "controversy" is spamming the internets to such an extent that it is almost impossible to search for decent classicist references on the serpent-staff online. --dab (𒁳) 10:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
reference for future use,
These guys clearly didn't care either way. K2709 (talk) 12:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
ok, I tried to make a case in a hurry now because of the threat of reverts. It turns out that the association of both Hermes and Asclepius with serpents is via Apollo. Hermes explicitly receives the caduceus from Apollo in the Homeric hymn. Asclepius is the "son of Apollo", which in mythological terms is practically as good as saying he is Apollo. Thus the connection with the serpent / the Indo-European dragon is documented. The only question is, why twin serpents? It turns out that also Asclepius seems to have been flanked by two serpents. The real question here is not Hermes vs. Asclepius as in the US controversy, but why and when the world serpent (which is obviously singular) has been duplicated. The obvious (and referenced) answer is, by influence of Babylonian iconography, but there are probably other aspects (such as the ambiguous sex of Hermes), but I don't have references for this at present.
There is a certain irony, I guess, that the "caduceus vs. rod of Asclepius controversy" ends up being about two variants of what is ultimately a single symbol, but of course the US stuff needs to be discussed on its own terms, and it would be WP:SYNTH to introduce this angle in the Caduceus as a symbol of medicine article. --dab (𒁳) 13:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Okay. Here's the deal. This article is not a googled hodge-podge (or wasn't). I've done quite a bit of work with primary and secondary sources (as have others), all of which are indicated. While I'll certainly own that it requires work and improvement, and that the information related to "erroneous" and "mistaken" use might not require so much emphasis now that we have put together the sub-article on this topic, the current attempt to make a case for what appears to be original syncretic research (In the style of Frazer and the popularizer Campbell) regarding the universality of a world-serpent ("you say proto-type of Rod of Asclepius, I say proto-Caduceus") is sloppy and not properly supported. Barring further comment I'll go ahead and put this article back together. As for "erroneous" and "mistaken" these are both terms taken from a number of academic secondary sources, all of which have been cited. While as editors we cannot indicate that we feel the use is erroneous, we can certainly base statements of fact in the article on the preponderance of secondary sources that themselves indicate the use is erroneous or mistaken (which it is). As for the term "cadueceus" applying to both the Rod of Asclepius as well as the herald's wand with two snakes: yes, there is evidence (particularly in 19th century France) for the term being used for both, but it is no less mistaken, particularly against a background of several thousand years in which the two devices were clearly referred to as distinct. See the citations in article. --Picatrix (talk) 19:38, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi,
I'm one of the editors who contributes regularly to this article. I return to Wikipedia after a short break only to see the article has been hacked up and much of the cited content replaced with... with I don't know what. Exactly what is the rationale for the deletions and changes? --Picatrix (talk) 21:39, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I found it interesting that the symbol was related to Apollo. It made me remember that there are many mythologies linking serpents as adversarial to the moon/sun; such as eclipses are caused by a giant snake swallowing it like an egg, and Apollo, a sun/moon deity is renouned for slaying a large serpent as is the egyptian god ra always battling apep in the night. I am wondering if the symbol could have been a snake impaled on a spear or it's skin wrapped around a staff to dry like a trophy. PS. i added a link to the amphisbaena page. i think it may solve the mystery of the 2 snakes as the earlier staff seems to depict it and it also is regarded as having healing properties and is from greek myth. but as i am no scholar i'll leave ther research to others. Bloodkith (talk) 14:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
The recently reverted edit will be a reference to Tiresias, who flipped gender setting a staff between two mating snakes (in order to represent the yin/yang dynamics of kundalini I dare say). That article thinks Le mythe de Tirésias: essai d'analyse structurale is a valid source that explicitly links in the caduceus, so interested parties could WP:PROVEIT that way if so inclined. K2709 (talk) 16:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
And if the caduceus can indeed be connected with Tiresias then medical agencies involved in sex reassignment surgery could make use of it without any troubling concern about making a "mistake" by so doing. Matter of fact, since they are in the "business" of correcting "mistakes" its use could be considered "doubly" appropriate.68.178.50.46 (talk) 04:07, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
An editor recently added the following prose to the article:
"The oldest example of the winged disc symbol is found on Sumarian carvings,
Sumer (from Akkadian Šumeru; Sumerian 𒆠𒂗𒂠 ki-en-ĝir15, approximately "land of the civilized kings" or "native land"[note 1])[1] was an ancient civilization and historical region in southern Mesopotamia, modern Iraq, during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age, dating 4000 to 4500 B.C. The winged disk is found in numerous carvings and is closely tied to the Sumerian creation myths. Ancient Greek archaeologists believe the Sumerians had a profound influence on nearly all aspects of Greek Civilization. "
Now, this seems detailed, but doesn't assert relevance to this article. It talks of a 'winged disc', which isn't the same thing. The hyperlinked article isn't very enlightening (and seems to be self published in either case). If there is something in this, then it would be good to include, but at the moment I can't reconcile it to being reputable enough to stay in. Further information would be welcomed if anyone has it?
OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 12:44, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
References
This was added to the article:
The ancient eastern deity Mithra was depicted as being born out of a rock and sometimes that iconography was accompanied by Mithra depicted with a lion's head and entwined by two snakes. The cult of Mithra is older than the cult of Hermes and the subsequent Mercurius that were also, but later, associated with the cadecus. In Sanskrit 'Mitra' means 'friend' and in Avestan 'Mitra' means 'oath/covenant//contract'. Thus the cadecus as a symbol of the herald can be derived back to Avestan times, 18th century BCE. Another interesting aspect is that the Hurrians and the Mitanni, attested in Ugarit tablets from the 14th century BCE, speaks of a primordial sea-serpent of chaos which had to be vanquished (cr: Illyanka). The ethymology of the Mitanni can be derived back to 'Mithra-anni' meaning 'covenant of heavens'. Also in Assyrian tablets, BCE 709, king Midas of Phrygia is called 'Mi-it-a' which also seems suspiciously cognate with Mithra.
This seems interesting, but needs citations. Anyone have any thoughts? OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 09:55, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Should we mention the Caduceus (or something that looks exactly like it) is the symbol of the Organization of Forensic Astrologers? 24.51.217.118 (talk) 05:22, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
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This article states the following things:
A. "The Homeric hymn to Hermes relates how Hermes offered his lyre fashioned from a tortoise shell as compensation for the cattle he stole from his half brother Apollo. Apollo in return gave Hermes the caduceus as a gesture of friendship. The association with the serpent thus connects Hermes to Apollo, as later the serpent was associated with Asclepius, the "son of Apollo"."
B. "One Greek myth of origin of the caduceus is part of the story of Tiresias, who found two snakes copulating and killed the female with his staff. Tiresias was immediately turned into a woman, and so remained until he was able to repeat the act with the male snake seven years later. This staff later came into the possession of the god Hermes, along with its transformative powers."
C. "Another myth suggests that Hermes (or Mercury) saw two serpents entwined in mortal combat. Separating them with his wand he brought about peace between them, and as a result the wand with two serpents came to be seen as a sign of peace."
I have a few questions:
1. The story of Hermes, Apollo's cattle and the lyre is told in at least 2 Greek mythology sources: the Homeric Hymn to Hermes (IV) (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999.01.0138%3ahymn%3d4) and Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.10.2) (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+3.10.2&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022). I do not see a reference to the caduceus and the fact it was given by Apollo to Hermes. Where is that piece of information?
2. What is the original source in Greek mythology that tells the story of Tiresias and the snakes?
3. What is the original source in Greek mythology that tells the story of Hermes/Mercury and the snakes?
4. If Apollo gave the caduceus to Hermes (first story) how is it possible that Hermes gained possession of it (second story)? I can only assume the two stories are completely separated.
ICE77 (talk) 07:16, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
Kwamikagami I'm intrigued to know why you added U+2BDA ⯚ HYGIEA (especially as my system has no supporting font to reveal its mysteries). How is it relevant? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:52, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
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