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Merger proposal

MERGED
Dark tea was merged into fermented tea by Metal.lunchbox. (See edits at dark tea and fermented tea)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose that Dark tea be merged into Fermented tea. The two articles describe the same class of teas, namely fermented teas, which is well described by the name of the article and the former article has less details in the tea types than the latter (albeit more citations). Dark tea also has a lot of overlap that may actually belong in Pu-er tea. The merge should be relatively simple due to the size of the two articles. -- Sjschen (talk) 13:35, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend you take a closer look at the google book search you cite. Of the ten results that pop up all only one of them appears to refer to the topic of this article. All of them use "fermented tea" to refer to tea having undergone oxidation, contrasting with green tea. One of them in the middle is talking about pu-er tea. The great majority of search results are like this. As I mentioned above and as you mention, "dark tea" has the same problem, because dark and tea are common words commonly used together. The reality of the situation is that the only word which consistently refers to this topic more than other topics is "post-fermented tea", a name which no one here appears to like. I think its the most accurate, but "dark tea" is more colloquial. between "Dark tea" and "fermented tea" it appears obvious to me which is better, because the difference between "dark, tea-coloured urine" and the topic of this article is revealed in context. The difference between "fermented tea" referring to black tea and "fermented tea" referring to the teas mentioned in this article is far from obvious. Now that I see just how hard it is to find the topic by searching "dark tea", I'm starting to prefer "post-fermented tea". - Metal lunchbox (talk) 03:34, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you read my statement above, I did note that "fermented tea" referred to red tea in some of the articles. I have nothing against "post-fermented tea" for dark tea, though I would need to see evidence that that was the common name even if technically correct. Ambiguity in the name among sources isn't a reason to reject the evidence of those sources. It is only a reason to reject the automated tally of a Google ngram or trend. Wikipedia's Common Names guideline means that a name may have to be used even if it is technically incorrect. It will really require someone to work through more than just the first 10 results on the Google books search. Rincewind42 (talk) 14:49, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I guess by "red tea" you meant "black tea" then? I misunderstood. Naming guidelines also encourage avoiding ambiguity, and "post-fermented" is the only name that isn't at all ambiguous. It's not clear to me what the common name in English is for this topic and figuring it out isn't an exact science, but here's what I've found to support the idea that post-fermented tea is the common name:
So that's pretty weak, right? so let's forget about ambiguity for a moment and see if one of these other names is the common name for this topic. Since counting google hits is pretty much useless, it's pretty subjective. A good way to get more hits which actually refer to the topic are to include "pu'er" in your search, since that's the archetypical dark tea. You can find plenty of popular books with proper editors using any of the three terms. My impression is that there just isn't a common name for it. Makes me think we should consider other criteria, like simplicity and resolving ambiguity. Unless we can form a consensus about the name, it would be proper to merge it into "fermented tea" (my least favorite name), basically preserving status quo. That means I'm going to stop arguing about titles now. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 16:59, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Rename proposal

The current page is the merging of two pages, resulting in the choice of Fermented tea as the English name of the category of tea called Heicha 黑茶 in Chinese and the closing of the discussion on its denomination in August 2014.

I hereby propose to reopen the discussion, taking into consideration the following points:

1) Heicha 黑茶 is one of the six basic categories of tea of the classification system devised in China in the 1970s and thereafter adopted as a standard. This system groups the different varieties of tea according to some specific shared key steps in the curing processes and names them with color terms: Lücha 绿茶, Hongcha 红茶, Huangcha 黄茶, Baicha 白茶 , Qingcha 青茶, Heicha 黑茶.

2) The system uses color labels consistently and works well in Chinese (notwithstanding the congenital incoherency of its basic principles: it uses colours terms – which refer to a defined visual character – to name processes that do not necessarily and univocally lead to defined colours).

3) The color labels of the Chinese classification cannot be straightforwardly applied to English. The long established term "black tea" (and any equivalent in all other European languages, which would represent the direct translation of heicha) is applied to the category of tea that in Chinese is called hongcha 紅茶 "red tea" (note that the use of the English term "black tea" actually precedes any textual reference to hongcha in Chinese sources and most likely the invention of hongcha itself: Huang, Hsing Tsung 2000. "Tea Processing and Use." In Science and Civilization in China. Vol. 6: Biology and Biological Technology. Pt. 5: Fermentations and Food Science, pp. 503–570)

4) In China the term wulongcha 烏龍茶 (from which the English word "oolong" comes) was and still is widely used as a synonymous of qingcha 青茶

5) Probably considering points 3) and 4), the Chinese standard GB/T 30766-2014 (茶叶分类 Classification of tea, issued on June 9th 2014) has formally adopted the following Chinese and English nomenclature for the six basic categories of tea:

6) From this, we can see that since October 2014 (when GB/T 30766-2014 was implemented) "dark tea" is the official standard English translation of heicha used in China (where substantially all heicha are produced).

7) Besides this, we should also observe that the term "dark tea" appears in academic articles recently published in various international scientific journals (here are a few examples): 1, 2, 3, 4

Given the above information, I would like to highlight some problems with the use of "Fermented tea” in tea classification, many of which were actually already touched upon by some other users in 2014:

8) As reported in the dedicated Wikipedia page, the English term Fermentation” can have different interpretations: 

Below are some definitions of fermentation. They range from informal, general usages to more scientific definitions.[1]
1. Preservation methods for food via microorganisms (general use).
2. Any large-scale microbial process occurring with or without air (common definition used in industry).
3. Any process that produces alcoholic beverages or acidic dairy products (general use).
4. Any energy-releasing metabolic process that takes place only under anaerobic conditions (somewhat scientific).
5. Any metabolic process that releases energy from a sugar or other organic molecule, does not require oxygen or an electron transport system, and uses an organic molecule as the final electron acceptor (most scientific).

9) According to the above passage, we can see that the microbial ripening of heicha is actually consistent with the "common definition" of fermentation used in industry, even if it does not actually fit the "most scientific" definition. We can then observe that enzymatic oxidation processes – such as the browning of black and oolong tea – do not properly fall with the scope of these definitions.

10) However, it is well known that the term “fermentation” (as well as its Chinese equivalent fajiao 發酵) is historically and presently used in tea industry to describe the enzymatic oxidation of black and oolong tea.

11) Besides this, this costumery and “unscientific" use of fermentation is also found in scholarly articles about tea processing published in international scientific journals (here some examples): 1, 2, 3, 4

12) Last but not least, we also ought to reckon the prescribed use of "fermented tea" to refer to black tea in international trade terminology: the Harmonized System coding of World Customs Organization, lists "black fermented tea and other partly fermented tea” under the code 090240. This is just how tea is labeled and shipped all around the world.

13) So, no matter how wrong it might be, the customary use of “fermented tea” for black tea is well-established, accepted in scientific articles, and even adopted in international normative texts. Any claim for an alternative use of the term must deal and compromise with this undeniable fact.

14) The creation of the Chinese term houfajiao 後發酵 (post-fermentation) to call the processing of heicha moves from these considerations: it meets the need to avoid the ambiguity between the microbial browning carried out after the fixation in processing of this category of tea – which properly deserve the "common definition" of fajiao 發酵 (fermentation) – and the improper but well-established use of the very same term for black and oolong tea enzymatic browning. Accordingly, heicha is also commonly called houfajiao cha 後發酵茶 (post-fermented tea).

To conclude:

- I believe that the use of "fermented tea” for heicha (even if denotatively correct） is misleading and could be a cause for misunderstanding, as it conflicts with the established and current (even if unproper）tea industry terminology;

- I reckon that “dark tea” or "post-fermented tea" are to be preferred.

For these reasons:

- I propose to rename the page “Dark tea" and insert "Post-fermented tea" as a "redirect here” page (or the contrary).

- I might also suggest to create a disambiguation page for "Fermented tea”, which points to Dark tea, Kombucha, Lahpet, Goishicha and also to its conventional use for Black tea. --Laozha (talk) 23:27, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Tortora, Gerard J.; Funke, Berdell R.; Case, Christine L. (2010). "5". Microbiology An Introduction (10 ed.). San Francisco, CA: Pearson Benjamin Cummings. p. 135. ISBN 978-0-321-58202-7.

Requested move 23 June 2022

Fermented tea → Dark tea – the use of "fermented tea” for heicha (even if denotatively correct）is misleading and could be a cause for misunderstanding, as it conflicts with the established and current tea industry terminology. Laozha (talk) 21:18, 23 June 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 04:35, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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