This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Historical European martial arts article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Wait a second, the Italian Renaissance started around 1400. And yet Fiore is listed as as a medieval fight master. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarquisCthulhu (talk • contribs) 19:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
That's a difficulty, isn't it? Defining time periods and the significance of such (often arbitrary) labels is a problem in history. Clearly, there was not an abrupt change in life in Italy overnight in 1400. What we can quantify is whether Fiore exhibited characteristics more Medieval or more Renaissance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.213.212.91 (talk) 05:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I created ((hema-stub)) to be added to stubby articles. dab (ᛏ) 11:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 07:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
This article desperately needs some TLC. Bits and pieces from older versions are floating around. The later centuries are skimped on, and there is nothing at all after 1700. I've removed some dubious bits:
Only two 15th century English treatises are known, they are rather obscure and *probably also dependent on the German school*.
What is the source for this assertion (which is AFAIK completely unfounded?) No one even knows what most of the terms mean, and none of them are German.
Jakob Sutor... The long sword having been completely replaced by the rapier and the sabre.
This is wrong, makes no sense in context, and isn't even a sentence.
After Fiore, his successors in the southern Holy Roman Empire formed what some consider a semi-independent school of swordsmanship from that of the north
This is really unclear. What is meant by semi-independent? Megalophias —Preceding undated comment added 16:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the emphasis placed on the SCA in the history of HEMA. I think that it could be argued that the recreation of HEMA started with Alfred Hutton, and more recently from scholars like Sidney Anglo and martial artists like John Clements. What are other's views on this? Sethwoodworth 21:00, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I have asked for verification on the statement that the SCA is a "a historical re-enactment organization." The SCA makes no such statement and it also does not fit the definition of a "a historical re-enactment organization".Midiman Alex (talk) 06:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC) The article on Historical re-enactment on Wikipedia also does not consider the SCA a historical re-enactment group. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reenactment> The issue is mainly one of authenticity and consistency of time periods in study.Midiman Alex (talk) 07:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I cleaned out a lot of cruft from the external links section. Martial arts pages are especially vulnerable to linkspam: I removed all links to individual clubs and forums, and left only two links that seem to actually be informational: one is a history, the other is the journal of western martial arts, which publishes articles about MA. I will continue to monitor this page and remove these crufty links, but if people disagree that this should be done, we should have a discussion here. Mangojuice 14:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
This is a pretty neat article over all. I've added some information about this to the discussion at Talk:Rapier, but shouldn't there be more mention of fencing manuals and teachers here? This rather large area of European fighting arts seems largely skipped over. --- Markspace 04:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the opening statement that HEMA refers to the modern reconstruction. The fact that the term has the word "Historical" in it obviates this. I suggest that that line be modified to point to the Western Martial Arts article since WMA is the modern outgrowth of HEMA, and that the "Modern Reconstruction" and "What is available today" sections be moved into the WMA article, and those two sections be directed to the WMA article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Master at Arms (talk • contribs) 04:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Please reread the opening statement for it clearly ends with: "The term most often refers to reconstructed forms of these arts." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.19.174.107 (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
It is my contention that that statement is outdated and today, WMA is the term that is most often used to refer to the reconstruction of the historical European/Western martial arts. Europe is part of the western world, thus Western Martial Arts is the common usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.19.174.107 (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I would refute your contentions by citing the Western Martial Arts Workshops, which do not include any of the vaguely eluded to "...arts from the Americas.." that you cite,as well as the refernce materials listed on The Chivalry Bookshelf (http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/), and other well respected sites such as The Chicago Swordplay Guild's homepage (http://chicagoswordplayguild.com/), and the ARMA site even uses the term: "...the HACA was thus reinvented as a club for historical Western martial arts research and practice.", as well as on the AEMMA site, http://www.aemma.org/aboutAEMMA_top.htm "...a common goal of establishing a viable European/Western martial arts." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.19.174.107 (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Your claim that "...in practice when you are discussing a HEMA in any but the most general terms, you have to talk about the reconstruction, because the arts themselves are gone." is falacy as much as saying that one can not discuss anything in history without having to talk about a reconstruction of history. When discusssing the American Civil War, must one discuss the the reenactors who recontruct it simply because the Civil War is no longer active? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.19.174.107 (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
If you could cite where WMA is "...often used in the much wider sense..." then I would recommend that the WMA article be expanded to include such, but I can find no such usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.19.174.107 (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
listing HEMA groups and societies, naturally the notability question arises. I'd say that any school founded prior to 1998 or so qualifies as notable for historical reasons, but the flurry of 2000s establishments makes clear that a school needs to meet some notability to be included. I do think all groups listed at present are arguably notable enough to be listed, but we'll have to be careful with future additions. dab (𒁳) 15:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I began the list as a part of tracing the history of the discipline. Any group active for more than 10 years should meet sufficient notability for inclusion. But for groups that were founded after 2000 or so, I agree that some sort of notability will have to be established. Wikipedia is not a linkfarm. The Gothenborg group organises a major annual event [1], and in may book may be listed, but germanlongsword.com or swarta.be as far as I am aware have no claim to fame. Obviously, it is difficult to draw a line. WP:ORG applies. That is, an editor arguing for the inclusion of a group should be expected to show that the group has been the subject of review or discussion at an unaffiliated WMA source. dab (𒁳) 18:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
the removal of the list was not discussed. I have restored it. I agree we need to be strict in terms of notability. We would need to require that a school has been going strong for at least five years, and can be shown to be mentioned by independent sources. dab (𒁳) 14:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
ok, here's a suggestion: as a first rule of thumb, any school started before 2000 and still in existence is fair game. Any school established after 2000 will need additional evidence of notability (third party references). 12:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbachmann (talk • contribs)
there's this map, maintained by a single group arsgladii.at, so that strictly speaking, the groups listed there are attested by an independent third party (but the source is far from notable, merely being listed there isn't proof of notability, it is just a better reference than a website operated by the respective groups themselves). dab (𒁳) 15:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello all, any objection to adding the Academy of Arms to the list of schools in this article? They have been featured in the LA Times and the LA Daily News, as well as several other news and information sites. They are listed in Western Martial Arts Illustrated magazine, and are an official California non-profit organization with an indoor facility. They train four times a week and have 35 students. Also, some of the biggest names in US WMA, such as Christian Tobler and Greg Mele know the founder of this school and can vouch for him. Maybe all this is overkill, but I just want to be respectful of the notability requirement. Thank you. Lazfin (talk) 23:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed the link to The Diamond Rose Academie D'Armes. It is completely clear that this just another renn-fair re-enactment group started well after 2000 with no real notability within the HEMA field. As they say on their main web page, their interest is primarily on "clothing, acting, faire speech, names and on garb, persona creation and etiquette" rather than on actual martial arts.Ranp (talk) 19:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed the complete link farm since it had become completely silly. Anyone who could put up a web page and play knight had added a link. All organizations, groups, and individuals were treated fairly.Ranp (talk) 21:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
RanP, your decision to arbitrarily remove references to assorted HEMA groups around the world would seem less biased if all references to ARMA had also been purged from this article. There is a clear suggestion of bias here, as you are an ARMA member and you have edited this article to remove references to diverse, unaligned HEMA groups and replaced them with a significant section of text that can be construed as promoting your organisation, the ARMA. Logic suggests there are only two fair ways for this article to proceed in order to avoid this bias and conflict of interest. 1) All reference to ALL modern HEMA re-constructionist groups should be removed and not re-instated; or 2) Links to ALL modern HEMA groups, that meet whatever notability criteria can be agreed upon, should be allowed in an appropriate format. Until then, I propose the entire “Reconstruction” section be removed. (HEMA Gaukler (talk) 03:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC))
As I suggested and foreshadowed in the Notability section here, I have pursued option 1) above and cleaned up the "Reconstruction" portion of the HEMA article to: a) incorporate a good deal more specific, factual data and details about early research and researchers in the revival of HEMA (which is very heavily indebted to and reliant on the work of researchers such as Wassmannsdorf, Hergsell, Novati, Matthey, Jackson, Wierschin and Hils), and: b) remove references to specific modern schools of HEMA.
I think reference to multi-group, pan-country/region organizations and events is fine and meets sensible notions of non-partisanship and notability and to that end, I have included a reference to the Australian Federation which has been active (2003) almost as long as HEMAC, and the Australian Conventions which have been running since 1999, placing them alongside WMAW in terms of seniority.
I would ask that before anyone edits this version, they please foreshadow the proposed edits here on the talk page and refrain from incorporating references to a) specific, contemporary HEMA schools/groups or b) specific, contemporary personalities in HEMA or c) specific, contemporary approaches to HEMA (i.e. interpretive philosophies or assumptions). This article is about the *historical* systems and should remain that way. There is already a wiki page on modern Historical martial arts reconstruction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_martial_arts_reconstruction) which covers contemporary, reconstructionism. (HEMA Gaukler (talk) 04:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)).
There is still a link farm under the External Links. I await comments from others before I start of clear them out.Ranp (talk) 22:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Too many External links - we should trim down to less than 5 preferably 2 or 3. I did some brutal trimming and expect some to be replaced. Peter Rehse (talk) 04:16, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
I have a bit of a problem with the section "Development of modern sports (1789 to 1914)". There still existed martial arts then, but the title ignores this, and it is hardly mentioned at all. Admittedly there was a trend towards more "combat" sport, and less martial art, but still. There is one mention of this:
In the course of the long 19th century, Western martial arts become divided into modern sports on one hand and applications that retain military significance on the other. In the latter category are the methods of close-quarter combat with the bayonet besides use of the sabre and the lance by cavalrists.
This is the only, brief, mention. Why isn't there more written on the arts, that had significance outside of sport?--213.113.53.13 (talk) 15:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
What about adding some information on recent major European HEMA events: Dijon HEMAC Gathering (France), Dreynevent (Austria), FightCamp (UK), SWASH (UK), Swordfish (Sweden)? Ulrich von Lichtenstein (talk) 18:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
It seems to me that in addition to Wiktenauer it might be appropriate to mention several other HEMA-related databases: Schola Gladiatoria's database, Hroarr's, Hungarian one at middleages.hu site etc. Ulrich von Lichtenstein (talk) 11:51, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
This article is not about Historical European martial arts, but is about historical European martial arts. The former does indeed "refer" to something, the latter do not.
This is not Wiktionary. --95.34.149.128 (talk) 00:44, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
This brand new HEMA publication, led by Dr. Mátyás Miskolczi aims to provide researchers willing to share their work with a publication platform.
Publication Board :
Brown, Scott (USA);
Jaquet, Daniel (CH);
Majár, János PhD (H);
Miskolczi, Mátyás PhD (H);
Waldmann, Szabolcs (H); Winter, Harald (A).
The first publication will be printed at the beginning of May, and it will be available during the XIIth International HEMA Gathering in Dijon (France).
You can read the abstracts of the articles here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/18927715/APD2013.pdf
Source: http://hemac-dijon.com/en/?page_id=356
-- Ulrich von Lichtenstein (talk) 16:02, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't see mentions of
And many other surviving/extinct ways of fighting using fists and/or kicks. 195.150.224.69 (talk) 17:30, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
For example, under «publications», who gets to be listed? I see there Rob Runacres, Reinier Van Noort or Guy Windsor, each (deservedly) among the most significant figures in the fields they study. However, I don't see Jens P. Kleinau, who is probably the most significant messer (and Kunst des Fechtens, generally) researcher out there, or Roland Warzecha, undisputedly the most well-know i.33 reference, or Ton Puey (disclaimer: he is a friend of mine) who is a world-level Verdadeira Destreza expert summoned to teach at international events several times each year... just to name a few. Mind you: I am not questioning Runacres', Noort's or Windsor's right to be listed. I am asking what the criteria is to add new people to that list? Gatonegro (talk) 14:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
The «See Also» section lists «Spanish School of Swordmanship», «Italian School of Swordmanship» and «German School of Swordmanship». However, these terms recall the present nation-states of the same names (the three of them, incidentally, born in the XIX century), and not the areas where the respective martial arts were practiced and/or born (that is: the Iberian Peninsula, the Italic Peninsula and/or the Holy Roman Empire). Specifically: Fiore's homeland was part of the HRE until ~1450; many of the integrants of the «Society of Liechtenauer» who promoted the Kunst des Fechtens were from present-day Poland, Croatia or Slovenia (by then too part, or associated to, the HRE), whereas on the other hand under «German» swordmanship often are included styles such as the Nuremberg group which seem to be quite restricted to a small geographic area. Finally, Verdadeira Destreza (and Destreza Comum too) was practiced in the whole Iberian Peninsula, not just present-day Spain (it actually developed independently in several aspects whenever Portugal was not under the same rule as the other kingdoms of the peninsula). I suggest we either change the names to the disciplines they refer to («Verdadeira Destreza», etc) or to more neutral geographic areas («Swords of Swordmanship of the Iberian Peninsula», «Swordmanship schools of the Holy Roman Empire» or «Kunst des Fechtens» or «Verdadeira Destreza», etc). Gatonegro (talk) 14:57, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2022 and 20 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Avalon Elaine (article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Avalon Elaine (talk) 18:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)