The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. See WP:TRAINWRECK. (non-admin closure) Mdaniels5757 (talk) 16:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• History of the Jews in Abkhazia → History of Jews in Abkhazia
• Disarmament of the German Jews → Disarmament of German Jews
• Expulsion of the Jews from Sicily → Expulsion of Jews from Sicily
• History of the Jews and the Crusades → History of Jews and the Crusades
• History of the Jews during World War II → History of Jews during World War II
• History of the Jews in 18th-century Poland → History of Jews in 18th-century Poland
• History of the Jews in 19th-century Poland → History of Jews in 19th-century Poland
• History of the Jews in 20th-century Poland → History of Jews in 20th-century Poland
• History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel → History of Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel
• History of the Jews in Adamów → History of Jews in Adamów
• History of the Jews in Affaltrach → History of Jews in Affaltrach
• History of the Jews in Afghanistan → History of Jews in Afghanistan
• History of the Jews in Africa → History of Jews in Africa
• History of the Jews in Alaska → History of Jews in Alaska
• History of the Jews in Albania → History of Jews in Albania
• History of the Jews in Algeria → History of Jews in Algeria
• History of the Jews in Alsace → History of Jews in Alsace
• History of the Jews in Amsterdam → History of Jews in Amsterdam
• History of the Jews in Ancona → History of Jews in Ancona
• History of the Jews in Andorra → History of Jews in Andorra
• History of the Jews in Angola → History of Jews in Angola
• History of the Jews in Antwerp → History of Jews in Antwerp
• History of the Jews in Apulia → History of Jews in Apulia
• History of the Jews in Argentina → History of Jews in Argentina
• History of the Jews in Arles → History of Jews in Arles
• History of the Jews in Armenia → History of Jews in Armenia
• History of the Jews in Artsakh → History of Jews in Artsakh
• History of the Jews in Aruba → History of Jews in Aruba
• History of the Jews in Asti → History of Jews in Asti
• History of the Jews in Atlanta → History of Jews in Atlanta
• History of the Jews in Australia → History of Jews in Australia
• History of the Jews in Austria → History of Jews in Austria
• History of the Jews in Azerbaijan → History of Jews in Azerbaijan
• History of the Jews in Baghdad → History of Jews in Baghdad
• History of the Jews in Bahrain → History of Jews in Bahrain
• History of the Jews in Baltimore → History of Jews in Baltimore
• History of the Jews in Bangladesh → History of Jews in Bangladesh
• History of the Jews in Barbados → History of Jews in Barbados
• History of the Jews in Bauska → History of Jews in Bauska
• History of the Jews in Békés (Hungary) → History of Jews in Békés (Hungary)
• History of the Jews in Belarus → History of Jews in Belarus
• History of the Jews in Belgium → History of Jews in Belgium
• History of the Jews in Belmonte → History of Jews in Belmonte
• History of the Jews in Besançon → History of Jews in Besançon
• History of the Jews in Bessarabia → History of Jews in Bessarabia
• History of the Jews in Bolivia → History of Jews in Bolivia
• History of the Jews in Bosnia and Herzegovina → History of Jews in Bosnia and Herzegovina
• History of the Jews in Bratislava → History of Jews in Bratislava
• History of the Jews in Brazil → History of Jews in Brazil
• History of the Jews in Brazos County, Texas → History of Jews in Brazos County, Texas
• History of the Jews in Brenham, Texas → History of Jews in Brenham, Texas
• History of the Jews in Brody → History of Jews in Brody
• History of the Jews in Bulgaria → History of Jews in Bulgaria
• History of the Jews in Calabria → History of Jews in Calabria
• History of the Jews in Calatayud → History of Jews in Calatayud
• History of the Jews in Campania and Basilicata → History of Jews in Campania and Basilicata
• History of the Jews in Canada → History of Jews in Canada
• History of the Jews in Cape Verde → History of Jews in Cape Verde
• History of the Jews in Carpathian Ruthenia → History of Jews in Carpathian Ruthenia
• History of the Jews in Carthage → History of Jews in Carthage
• History of the Jews in Central Asia → History of Jews in Central Asia
• History of the Jews in Charleston, South Carolina → History of Jews in Charleston, South Carolina
• History of the Jews in Chicago → History of Jews in Chicago
• History of the Jews in Chile → History of Jews in Chile
• History of the Jews in China → History of Jews in China
• History of the Jews in Cincinnati → History of Jews in Cincinnati
• History of the Jews in Cologne → History of Jews in Cologne
• History of the Jews in Colombia → History of Jews in Colombia
• History of the Jews in Colonial America → History of Jews in Colonial America
• History of the Jews in Costa Rica → History of Jews in Costa Rica
• History of the Jews in Croatia → History of Jews in Croatia
• History of the Jews in Cuba → History of Jews in Cuba
• History of the Jews in Curaçao → History of Jews in Curaçao
• History of the Jews in Cyprus → History of Jews in Cyprus
• History of the Jews in Czechia → History of Jews in Czechia
• History of the Jews in Czechoslovakia → History of Jews in Czechoslovakia
• History of the Jews in Dallas → History of Jews in Dallas
• History of the Jews in Denmark → History of Jews in Denmark
• History of the Jews in Djibouti → History of Jews in Djibouti
• History of the Jews in East Africa → History of Jews in East Africa
• History of the Jews in Ecuador → History of Jews in Ecuador
• History of the Jews in Egypt → History of Jews in Egypt
• History of the Jews in Eindhoven → History of Jews in Eindhoven
• History of the Jews in El Salvador → History of Jews in El Salvador
• History of the Jews in England → History of Jews in England
• History of the Jews in England (1066–1290) → History of Jews in England (1066–1290)
• History of the Jews in Eritrea → History of Jews in Eritrea
• History of the Jews in Eswatini → History of Jews in Eswatini
• History of the Jews in Ethiopia → History of Jews in Ethiopia
• History of the Jews in Europe → History of Jews in Europe
• History of the Jews in Fiji → History of Jews in Fiji
• History of the Jews in Finland → History of Jews in Finland
• History of the Jews in Florence → History of Jews in Florence
• History of the Jews in France → History of Jews in France
• History of the Jews in Freiburg im Breisgau → History of Jews in Freiburg im Breisgau
• History of the Jews in French Polynesia → History of Jews in French Polynesia
• History of the Jews in Galveston, Texas → History of Jews in Galveston, Texas
• History of the Jews in Gdańsk → History of Jews in Gdańsk
• History of the Jews in Georgia → History of Jews in Georgia
• History of the Jews in Germany → History of Jews in Germany
• History of the Jews in Ghana → History of Jews in Ghana
• History of the Jews in Gibraltar → History of Jews in Gibraltar
• History of the Jews in Greater Cleveland → History of Jews in Greater Cleveland
• History of the Jews in Greater Columbus → History of Jews in Greater Columbus
• History of the Jews in Greece → History of Jews in Greece
• History of the Jews in Groningen → History of Jews in Groningen
• History of the Jews in Guam → History of Jews in Guam
• History of the Jews in Guernsey → History of Jews in Guernsey
• History of the Jews in Guyana → History of Jews in Guyana
• History of the Jews in Hadramaut → History of Jews in Hadramaut
• History of the Jews in Haiti → History of Jews in Haiti
• History of the Jews in Hamburg → History of Jews in Hamburg
• History of the Jews in Honduras → History of Jews in Honduras
• History of the Jews in Hong Kong → History of Jews in Hong Kong
• History of the Jews in Houston → History of Jews in Houston
• History of the Jews in Hungary → History of Jews in Hungary
• History of the Jews in Iceland → History of Jews in Iceland
• History of the Jews in Illinois → History of Jews in Illinois
• History of the Jews in India → History of Jews in India
• History of the Jews in Indonesia → History of Jews in Indonesia
• History of the Jews in Innsbruck → History of Jews in Innsbruck
• History of the Jews in Iran → History of Jews in Iran
• History of the Jews in Iraq → History of Jews in Iraq
• History of the Jews in Ireland → History of Jews in Ireland
• History of the Jews in Italy → History of Jews in Italy
• History of the Jews in Jamaica → History of Jews in Jamaica
• History of the Jews in Japan → History of Jews in Japan
• History of the Jews in Jersey → History of Jews in Jersey
• History of the Jews in Kairouan → History of Jews in Kairouan
• History of the Jews in Kalisz → History of Jews in Kalisz
• History of the Jews in Kazakhstan → History of Jews in Kazakhstan
• History of the Jews in Kenya → History of Jews in Kenya
• History of the Jews in Khaybar → History of Jews in Khaybar
• History of the Jews in Kiev → History of Jews in Kiev
• History of the Jews in Kobe → History of Jews in Kobe
• History of the Jews in Kolkata → History of Jews in Kolkata
• History of the Jews in Königsberg → History of Jews in Königsberg
• History of the Jews in Kosovo → History of Jews in Kosovo
• History of the Jews in Kraków → History of Jews in Kraków
• History of the Jews in Kurdistan → History of Jews in Kurdistan
• History of the Jews in Kuwait → History of Jews in Kuwait
• History of the Jews in Kyrgyzstan → History of Jews in Kyrgyzstan
• History of the Jews in Laos → History of Jews in Laos
• History of the Jews in Latin America and the Caribbean → History of Jews in Latin America and the Caribbean
• History of the Jews in Latvia → History of Jews in Latvia
• History of the Jews in Laupheim → History of Jews in Laupheim
• History of the Jews in Lebanon → History of Jews in Lebanon
• History of the Jews in Łęczna → History of Jews in Łęczna
• History of the Jews in Leipzig → History of Jews in Leipzig
• History of the Jews in Libya → History of Jews in Libya
• History of the Jews in Liechtenstein → History of Jews in Liechtenstein
• History of the Jews in Lithuania → History of Jews in Lithuania
• History of the Jews in Livorno → History of Jews in Livorno
• History of the Jews in Los Angeles → History of Jews in Los Angeles
• History of the Jews in Łuków → History of Jews in Łuków
• History of the Jews in Luxembourg → History of Jews in Luxembourg
• History of the Jews in Maastricht → History of Jews in Maastricht
• History of the Jews in Madagascar → History of Jews in Madagascar
• History of the Jews in Madeira → History of Jews in Madeira
• History of the Jews in Malawi → History of Jews in Malawi
• History of the Jews in Malaysia → History of Jews in Malaysia
• History of the Jews in Malta → History of Jews in Malta
• History of the Jews in Manchester → History of Jews in Manchester
• History of the Jews in Maryland → History of Jews in Maryland
• History of the Jews in Mauritania → History of Jews in Mauritania
• History of the Jews in Mauritius → History of Jews in Mauritius
• History of the Jews in Metro Detroit → History of Jews in Metro Detroit
• History of the Jews in Mexico → History of Jews in Mexico
• History of the Jews in Moldova → History of Jews in Moldova
• History of the Jews in Monaco → History of Jews in Monaco
• History of the Jews in Monastir → History of Jews in Monastir
• History of the Jews in Mongolia → History of Jews in Mongolia
• History of the Jews in Montenegro → History of Jews in Montenegro
• History of the Jews in Morocco → History of Jews in Morocco
• History of the Jews in Moscow → History of Jews in Moscow
• History of the Jews in Mozambique → History of Jews in Mozambique
• History of the Jews in Mumbai → History of Jews in Mumbai
• History of the Jews in Munich → History of Jews in Munich
• History of the Jews in Myanmar → History of Jews in Myanmar
• History of the Jews in Namibia → History of Jews in Namibia
• History of the Jews in Naples → History of Jews in Naples
• History of the Jews in New Caledonia → History of Jews in New Caledonia
• History of the Jews in New York → History of Jews in New York
• History of the Jews in New Zealand → History of Jews in New Zealand
• History of the Jews in Nicaragua → History of Jews in Nicaragua
• History of the Jews in Nigeria → History of Jews in Nigeria
• History of the Jews in North Africa → History of Jews in North Africa
• History of the Jews in North East England → History of Jews in North East England
• History of the Jews in North Macedonia → History of Jews in North Macedonia
• History of the Jews in Northern Cyprus → History of Jews in Northern Cyprus
• History of the Jews in Oceania → History of Jews in Oceania
• History of the Jews in Ohio → History of Jews in Ohio
• History of the Jews in Oldenburg → History of Jews in Oldenburg
• History of the Jews in Omaha, Nebraska → History of Jews in Omaha, Nebraska
• History of the Jews in Oman → History of Jews in Oman
• History of the Jews in Ottawa → History of Jews in Ottawa
• History of the Jews in Pakistan → History of Jews in Pakistan
• History of the Jews in Palau → History of Jews in Palau
• History of the Jews in Paraguay → History of Jews in Paraguay
• History of the Jews in Pennsylvania → History of Jews in Pennsylvania
• History of the Jews in Peru → History of Jews in Peru
• History of the Jews in Pittsburgh → History of Jews in Pittsburgh
• History of the Jews in Poland → History of Jews in Poland
• History of the Jews in Poland before the 18th century → History of Jews in Poland before the 18th century
• History of the Jews in Portugal → History of Jews in Portugal
• History of the Jews in Prague → History of Jews in Prague
• History of the Jews in Puerto Rico → History of Jews in Puerto Rico
• History of the Jews in Qatar → History of Jews in Qatar
• History of the Jews in Regensburg → History of Jews in Regensburg
• History of the Jews in Romania → History of Jews in Romania
• History of the Jews in Russia → History of Jews in Russia
• History of the Jews in Saada → History of Jews in Saada
• History of the Jews in Saint Petersburg → History of Jews in Saint Petersburg
• History of the Jews in Salzburg → History of Jews in Salzburg
• History of the Jews in San Francisco → History of Jews in San Francisco
• History of the Jews in San Marino → History of Jews in San Marino
• History of the Jews in Sardinia → History of Jews in Sardinia
• History of the Jews in Saudi Arabia → History of Jews in Saudi Arabia
• History of the Jews in Scotland → History of Jews in Scotland
• History of the Jews in Serbia → History of Jews in Serbia
• History of the Jews in Sicily → History of Jews in Sicily
• History of the Jews in Singapore → History of Jews in Singapore
• History of the Jews in Sint Maarten → History of Jews in Sint Maarten
• History of the Jews in Slovakia → History of Jews in Slovakia
• History of the Jews in Slovenia → History of Jews in Slovenia
• History of the Jews in South Africa → History of Jews in South Africa
• History of the Jews in South Florida → History of Jews in South Florida
• History of the Jews in South Korea → History of Jews in South Korea
• History of the Jews in South Ossetia → History of Jews in South Ossetia
• History of the Jews in Southern Africa → History of Jews in Southern Africa
• History of the Jews in Spain → History of Jews in Spain
• History of the Jews in Speyer → History of Jews in Speyer
• History of the Jews in Sri Lanka → History of Jews in Sri Lanka
• History of the Jews in Sudan → History of Jews in Sudan
• History of the Jews in Suriname → History of Jews in Suriname
• History of the Jews in Sweden → History of Jews in Sweden
• History of the Jews in Switzerland → History of Jews in Switzerland
• History of the Jews in Syria → History of Jews in Syria
• History of the Jews in Taiwan → History of Jews in Taiwan
• History of the Jews in Tajikistan → History of Jews in Tajikistan
• History of the Jews in Texas → History of Jews in Texas
• History of the Jews in Thailand → History of Jews in Thailand
• History of the Jews in the American West → History of Jews in the American West
• History of the Jews in the Arabian Peninsula → History of Jews in the Arabian Peninsula
• History of the Jews in the Balearic Islands → History of Jews in the Balearic Islands
• History of the Jews in the Byzantine Empire → History of Jews in the Byzantine Empire
• History of the Jews in the Democratic Republic of the Congo → History of Jews in the Democratic Republic of the Congo
• History of the Jews in the Dominican Republic → History of Jews in the Dominican Republic
• History of the Jews in the Isle of Man → History of Jews in the Isle of Man
• History of the Jews in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast → History of Jews in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast
• History of the Jews in the Netherlands → History of Jews in the Netherlands
• History of the Jews in the Ottoman Empire → History of Jews in the Ottoman Empire
• History of the Jews in the Philippines → History of Jews in the Philippines
• History of the Jews in the Roman Empire → History of Jews in the Roman Empire
• History of the Jews in the Southern United States → History of Jews in the Southern United States
• History of the Jews in the Soviet Union → History of Jews in the Soviet Union
• History of the Jews in the United Arab Emirates → History of Jews in the United Arab Emirates
• History of the Jews in the United Kingdom → History of Jews in the United Kingdom
• History of the Jews in the United States → History of Jews in the United States
• History of the Jews in Thessaloniki → History of Jews in Thessaloniki
• History of the Jews in Tilburg → History of Jews in Tilburg
• History of the Jews in Tivoli → History of Jews in Tivoli
• History of the Jews in Toronto → History of Jews in Toronto
• History of the Jews in Transnistria → History of Jews in Transnistria
• History of the Jews in Trieste → History of Jews in Trieste
• History of the Jews in Tudela → History of Jews in Tudela
• History of the Jews in Tunisia → History of Jews in Tunisia
• History of the Jews in Turin → History of Jews in Turin
• History of the Jews in Turkey → History of Jews in Turkey
• History of the Jews in Udmurtia and Tatarstan → History of Jews in Udmurtia and Tatarstan
• History of the Jews in Uganda → History of Jews in Uganda
• History of the Jews in Ukraine → History of Jews in Ukraine
• History of the Jews in Uruguay → History of Jews in Uruguay
• History of the Jews in Ústí nad Labem → History of Jews in Ústí nad Labem
• History of the Jews in Uzbekistan → History of Jews in Uzbekistan
• History of the Jews in Vancouver → History of Jews in Vancouver
• History of the Jews in Venezuela → History of Jews in Venezuela
• History of the Jews in Venice → History of Jews in Venice
• History of the Jews in Verpelét → History of Jews in Verpelét
• History of the Jews in Vienna → History of Jews in Vienna
• History of the Jews in Vietnam → History of Jews in Vietnam
• History of the Jews in Wales → History of Jews in Wales
• History of the Jews in Washington, D.C. → History of Jews in Washington, D.C.
• History of the Jews in Zambia → History of Jews in Zambia
• History of the Jews in Zimbabwe → History of Jews in Zimbabwe
• History of the Jews of Jasło → History of Jews of Jasło
• History of the Jews under Muslim rule → History of Jews under Muslim rule
• Napoleon and the Jews → Napoleon and Jews
• Rescue of the Danish Jews → Rescue of Danish Jews
• Resettlement of the Jews in England → Resettlement of Jews in England
• Taxation of the Jews in Europe → Taxation of Jews in Europe

– By WP:DEFINITE and WP:CONCISE, the use of "the" should be dropped from these titles because it simply is not necessary to convey the topics of the articles. Additionally, the use of the definite article in these cases is clunky and should not be in use per WP:NATURALNESS. For now, we can disregard the "political correctness" argument that using the definite article to refer to ethnic groups in certain cases is "othering" and a social wrong. While I personally think this argument is compelling, the true test of whether referring to "Jews" with "the" is acceptable can simply be conducted by looking at the wider media: In 2019, news articles mentioning "the Jews" were a very small fraction (13.7%) of articles mentioning "Jews". By WP:COMMONNAME, the titles of the articles should be changed to reflect this usage by the media. Mysterymanblue (talk) 04:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

Section one[edit]

Oppose Rescue of Danish Jews because it implies only some were rescued (Rescue of Dutch Jews or Rescue of Polish Jews would be appropriate, since most did not survive). Since most of the Danish Jwes were rescued, Rescue of the Danish Jews is more accurate. Oppose moving Conversion of the Jews, Disarmament of the German Jews, and Emancipation of the Jews in the United Kingdom (should be moved to Jewish emancipation in the United Kingdom?), and Expulsion of the Jews from Sicily for the same reason. Also oppose Napoleon and Jews as it sounds unnatural. buidhe 05:15, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure if I follow the idea that failing to include "the" necessarily implies that most did not survive. On the contrary, I think that using "the Danish Jews" would imply that all Danish Jews were uniformly rescued. While the number of Danish Jews rescued was incredible, there were many of them, and not all were so lucky. The fact that it was a widespread, coordinated rescue is expressed not by the "the" that precedes "Danish Jews", but by the "the" that would appear before "rescue".

I would agree with you on Conversion of the Jews, as this seems to be a fixed phrase. However, I still maintain that it should be Disarmament of German Jews, on the grounds I mentioned above. I would support Jewish emancipation in the United Kingdom as it is more idiomatic than the alternatives. As for Expulsion of Jews from Sicily, I would point out that we should be consistent with Expulsion of Jews from Spain. Mysterymanblue (talk) 06:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose moving Conversion of the Jews, which always uses the definite article, and so the proposal fails WP: COMMONNAME. StAnselm (talk) 05:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that "Conversion of Jews" does not even show up in Google Ngrams, I agree that Conversion of the Jews should not be renamed. Mysterymanblue (talk) 05:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: It would be helpful if users were willing to briefly comment on their attitude toward the "big picture" of the RM (namely, renaming "the Jews" to "Jews" in certain cases). While the more controversial article title changes may garner more interest, it is impossible to gauge consensus on the vast majority of the proposed changes if people focus on these. Mysterymanblue (talk) 06:04, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - History of the Jews in some place = the history of all the Jews at all points in time in a clearly defined place. History of Jews in some place = the history of a certain number of Jews at all points in time in a clearly defined place. I sense a notable difference. --Edelseider (talk) 06:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In either case, I think the meaning of the article title is totally unambiguous. I certainly don't see why removing the "the" would cause the meaning to somehow be more restrictive to "a certain number of Jews". Both article titles carry essentially the same information: this article will inform you about the history of the Jewish community in some particular location. However, we may posit that a certain article title is more idiomatic and then ask ourselves why. I might argue that, for the same reason you see "the Jews" as "all Jews", using "the Jews" paints a community of individuals as a monolith, whereas simply "Jews" is more neutral to the possible rifts in a community and recognizes the individuality in each person. That is why, though both titles carry the same information, I feel that "History of Jews in X" sounds better than "History of the Jews in X" Mysterymanblue (talk) 07:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But Jews have long been treated as a monolithic community of strangers who were either just tolerated, or unwelcome, or expulsed, or massacred, or sometimes invited to settle... I have been quite involved with the History of the Jews in Alsace, and as diverse as the Jewish personalities and local communities have been, the non-Jewish perspective was almost always essentialist. And as the titles say, we are talking about local history here (Jews in XXXYY), not about distinct personalities (Jews in the movie industry, Jewish violinists...)--Edelseider (talk) 07:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Understanding this may be deeply semantic,) in many places Jewish communities were established and destroyed multiple times. Would each of these separate instances count as the same "the Jews" monolithic community? To me in this instance "Jews" feels semantically more inclusive. I would also see the value of discussing say Jews in the movie industry or violinists, especially given professions have played such a significant part of many of these histories. The Alsace article specificlly mentions cloth and cattle merchants. CMD (talk) 07:41, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cloth merchant and cattle merchant were some of the professions the Jews (not just "Jews") were allowed to have because from the point of view of the host territory - and no matter which one - and from the dominating religion - in the Alsace case many different shades of Christianism (Catholicism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, etc.) - they were one bloc of Others, no matter if physically present or physically absent. I mean, what we are touching here are the subjects of Christian antijudaism and Islamic antijudaism, do we really want to go there? --Edelseider (talk) 08:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. "The Jews" indicates Jews collectively, whereas "Jews" might indicate just two of them. Use of "the Jews" in this fashion is absolutely standard in scholarly writing and not in the least "clunky". This doesn't mean that "the" has to be used throughout the article, but in titles and when it is required to emphasise the collective it is normal and natural. Context matters. This article is a fair example: it is not about some individual persons who just happened to be Jewish, it is about a community of people who distinguished themselves and were distinguished by their neighbors on account of their Jewishness. The "othering" argument is wrong-headed; actually having this article at all is an example of othering but we do it because this collective is a notable entity. Some individual cases in the list may be worthy of individual consideration, but as a package I oppose this proposal. Zero^talk 08:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose for reasons stated by others above. I find nothing clunky about "the Jews". DiamondRemley39 (talk) 12:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as per Zero0000 et al. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: Is there some reason in particular against Jewish history in Foo? --Paul_012 (talk) 13:04, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Paul 012: Not all Jews are part of Jewish history. For example, there may be individual Jews who do not identify with Jews and Judaism, but they are part of other nations' or groups' history, not so much a part of Jewish history. But as "Jews" they are included in "History of the Jews in ____". IZAK (talk) 19:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The primary article regarding the history of Jews is Jewish history, so I see no problems there. I am supportive of "Jewish History in Foo" and "Jews in Foo" as more concise alternatives to "History of (the) Jews". However, I recognize that there may be subtle differences in the meanings of these article titles, which is why I elected to go with the article creators' original intentions in these cases. Mysterymanblue (talk) 16:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: "Jewish history" also seems to be a much more popular than "history of (the) jews" in scholarly articles. Unless there's a logical reason why "Jewish history" should not be used, it seems to be the best option. Mysterymanblue (talk) 17:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mysterymanblue: Not all Jews are part of Jewish history. For example, there may be individual Jews who do not identify with Jews and Judaism, but they are part of other nations' or groups' history, not so much a part of Jewish history. But as "Jews" they are included in "History of the Jews in ____". IZAK (talk) 19:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. An editor has made a good-faith suggestion that the titular word “the” is redundant and violative of WP:CONCISE. Valid evidence is presented on this thread that the suggestion is wrong. Bigturtle (talk) 14:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• OPPOSE such a wasteful proposal with such sweeping ambition. "The" is correct English. IZAK (talk) 19:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. 19:26, 5 June 2020 (UTC) IZAK (talk) 19:26, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose all the moves. This proposal seems arbitrary and sweeping and unnecessary to me. Plus, all of the reasons given by the proposer have been shown to be incorrect. This set of requests should be closed. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:41, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose all the moves. This doesn't even read correctly. Say we're writing a history of baseball, we don't write "History of Mets." We write "History of the Mets." Further, as per Izak and the rest, it just seems a little too much. The editor seems a little too ambitious and we should not be changing these articles when it makes no sense to do so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir Joseph (talk • contribs) 20:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would challenge the idea that "the" must necessarily be used when referring to all groups of people. As a counterexample, you certainly would never write about "the history of the African Americans", but rather "the history of African Americans". Each ethnic group has sublteties as to when "the" is used to refer to its name, and Jews are no exception. Mysterymanblue (talk) 21:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mysterymanblue, and the topic of these RM's are all on "The Jews" which doesn't sound clunky or wrong. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 21:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was using my example to counter a very specific argument regarding the Mets. I believe that "the history of Jews in Baltimore" sounds much better than "the history of the Jews in Baltimore", even though each may be grammatically correct. Mysterymanblue (talk) 21:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mysterymanblue: It is NOT "the history of the Jews in Baltimore" it is just plain "History of the Jews in Baltimore" without "the" before "Baltimore", don't add in your own extra "the" to make your case. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 04:22, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The definite article appearing before "history" does not (and should not) make an impact on the proposed title changes or any argument relating to them. Its inclusion in my comment is incidental to my argument, and was simply there to add fluency to the phrase used within a sentence. When we're discussing "the" modifying the name of an ethnic group, I fail to see how using "the" to modify "history" really bears any weight to either side. Mysterymanblue (talk) 05:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per Mysterymanblue, aside from exceptions above where the WP:COMMONNAME includes "the Jews". Including 'The' is indeed clunky and doesn't align with how we would refer to other groups like "history of African Americans". -M.Nelson (talk) 22:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC) I've also listed support below for an alternative proposal. -M.Nelson (talk) 12:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all the moves per Zero and others above.Smeat75 (talk) 17:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. One linguistic construction tends to be more respectful and the other other linguistic construction tends to be more offensive. Bus stop (talk) 18:26, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Fairly pointless. Keep as is. JFW | T@lk 20:10, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. For the reasons given above. Ekki01 (talk) 20:41, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, per Zero. SarahSV ^(talk) 18:01, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

voting section[edit]

Section two[edit]

The proposal itself is too long, and adding the voting on it to the same section is unwieldy. I am starting a new separate and more manageable voting section:

• Oppose In general I am accepting the complete argument above put forth by Zero0000. Some specific cases could be considered, but as a wholesale move, as it is being constructed above, this gigantic endeavor would be an unnecessary and indeed disastrous waste of precious resources for WP, in my view. warshy ^(¥¥) 20:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support I agree that "using 'the Jews' paints a community of individuals as a monolith." "'The' African Americans" sounds blatantly politically incorrect and unnatural. Both are ethnic groups, so why would "'the' Jews" be any less off-putting? Even if you do not subscribe to the political correctness argument, "the" is unnecessary; both titles are precise, but the article does not sound more natural or enhance understanding of the article's contents. It seems logical that we would get rid of "the," then, per WP: CONCISE. Simply, "the" does not add sufficient value to merit the implication of out-group homogeneity. Nayakm (talk) 01:45, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose for the reasons I detailed above. I also oppose this new section being added at this point in the discussion, which just complicates the issue since most of the previous section already consists of votes. Zero^talk 04:43, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that having a small header called “Section 2” is not necessary to organize this page. Mysterymanblue (talk) 06:03, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. "History of Jews" implies the history of individual Jews, as individuals. History of the Jews implies, correctly, history of the Jewish people as a group. "The Jews" , or "the Jewish people" is of course a multi-meaning term, with disputed and sometimes contradictory significance, but no more so than "Jews" ; the change adds no clarity. DGG ( talk ) 04:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think that any reasonable person would read either title and be confused as to the meaning of the name or the content of the article. Certainly, if we were considering an article like “Names of (the) Jews”, the meaning would be more significant, as an individual is as likely to have a name as a group. However, “the history of (the) jews in a particular place“, with or without the definite article, can really only refer to history of the Jewish people in some location (which, yes, consists of individual Jews), because you don’t really see encyclopedic articles written about the history of a few individuals (especially when the noun used to describe them is so broad). I therefore do not believe that this is strictly a matter of clarity. As an example, I would ask if “the history of the Hispanics in El Paso” is better or worse than “the history of Hispanics in El Paso”. In this case, most people would likely say that “the history of Hispanics” sounds more correct. If we accept that “the” is better for the sake of clarifying that we’re not talking about a individual Hispanics, but all Hispanics, would we be required to accept “the history of the Hispanics”? Or is something more nuanced at play? Mysterymanblue (talk) 05:58, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. I think this needs to be left to individual articles. Some titles sound better with, some without. The article I came here from "History of the Jews in Latin America and the Caribbean" sounds absolutely awkward as "History of Jews in Latin America and the Caribbean". Laella (talk) 11:32, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• OPPOSE because of this bit of good advice: Wikipedia:If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Furthermore, I do feel strongly about this, mainly because of sensitivity about the topic and how it is phrased. There are times when plain "Jews" is used, but in the case of the long-standing articles about "History of the Jews in ____" that has been standard editorial policy for almost 20 years on WP (I have been an editor in Jewish history articles for over 17 years), almost all editors understood that in the case of these history articles, to have the word "Jews" dangling in mid-air without the "the" sounds almost pejorative and derogatory to the Jews themselves. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 04:15, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose “The Jews” indicates Jews collectively whereas "Jews" is more indicative of a specific number. The five Jews in México City and The six Mexicans in Tehran versus the Jews in Mexico City or the Mexicans in Tehran.  nsaum75 ^{[[User talk:nsaum75|[undefined] Error: ((Lang)): no text (help)]]} 17:03, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose I concur with the reasons expressed by IZAK above. We should resist changes to longstanding practice. Dauster (talk) 17:35, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose with extreme prejudice. This is a silly proposal that adds no value to Wikipedia. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. As the creator of History of the Jews in Sint Maarten and editor of other articles in the series, the original proposal concerns me. It does not sound inclusive enough, encompassing all Jews. This is a typical example of Wikipedia:If it ain't broke, don't fix it! gidonb (talk) 20:38, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose for reasons well-explained by IZAK. -- Olve Utne (talk) 23:06, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose well explained by DGG. Just like the title How the Scots Invented the Modern World uses correct terminology for a people, not selected individuals. Can we get a snow close on this? ☆ Bri (talk) 16:22, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as per IZAK and DGG. Ekki01 (talk) 20:41, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose for reasons well-explained by IZAK. --Redaktor (talk) 14:00, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose for all of the above reasons. SarahSV ^(talk) 18:02, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative proposal[edit]

Why not just use a title like Jewish history in Germany for the various countries and regions?--Pharos (talk) 05:17, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not opposed to this idea. In the line of discussion established by Paul_012 above, IZAK mentions that “Jewish history in X” may not be applicable in some cases because “there may be individual Jews who do not identify with Jews and Judaism, but they are part of other nations' or groups' history, not so much a part of Jewish history.“ However, I would say that grouping Jews collectively with “the Jews” effectively does what IZAK claims, putting them into a monolith which individuals may deviate from. Personally, I do not think that “Jewish history” necessarily has any connotation of claiming Jews who are not deeply identified with their ethnic group. I therefore would favor “History of Jews in X” followed closely by “Jewish history in X”. For articles that are not solely about history, I would chiefly favor “Jews in X”. Mysterymanblue (talk) 06:18, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can see why it would make sense to remove "the" from these and support a change to "Jewish history in _______" format.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 16:10, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Jewish history in... for all the above which currently have "History of the Jews in..." buidhe 03:57, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• OPPOSE because not all Jews are part of JEWISH history as such. For example, Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud, Leon Trotsky are all Jews BY BIRTH but they have nothing to do with JEWISH history per se! Marx was an atheist hater of Jews. Freud pioneered psychoanalysis, Trotsky was a Russian revolutionary, that has nothing to do with Jews, Judaism, and Jewish history. BUT, when you talk of "History of the Jews in ____" then you can include even the remotest Jew/s in the "History of the JEWS in ____" since that is ALL INCLUSIVE of everyone connected with the Jews. I hope this is clear. Feel free to ask for clarification. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 04:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The deciding of Who is a Jew? is not part of this discussion and specific cases like the ones you raise could be discussed on the talk pages of those specific articles.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 09:03, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Monopoly31121993(2): You are wrong and off base! No one is deciding "who is a Jew", all I am saying is that Jewish history is too specific because it is Jewish after all. While those Jews who are not connected to anything Jewish ARE included in articles that are titled 'History of the Jews in ___" (which includes all types and varieties of Jews). Note what I am saying is a MORE inclusive (of ALL Jews) naming system, while the title "Jewish history" is more exclusive and excluding and hence unsuitable. IZAK (talk) 13:13, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@IZAK:You write that you don't think Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud, Leon Trotsky, etc. should be included to the History of the JEWS in country X page because "Marx was an atheist hater of Jews. Freud pioneered psychoanalysis, Trotsky was a Russian revolutionary, that has nothing to do with Jews, Judaism, and Jewish history." THESE ARE YOUR WORDS NOT MINE. And that's FINE. It's an interesting opinion. But that conversation belongs on the Talk page of those articles. The conversation here about the title of articles related to the Jewish history of different countries.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 13:50, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Jewish history in... for all the above.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 09:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Monopoly, you make me laugh. You are clearly not understanding me! I am citing examples of how this system works. According to me, Marx, Freud, Trotsky would be included in "History of the Jews in Germany" for Marx, and in "History of the Jews in Austria" for Freud and in "History of the Jews in Russia" for Trotsky BECAUSE Marx, Freud, Trotsky are Jews by birth but IT IS POSSIBLE TO EXCLUDE THEM from an article that is just about the Jewish history of those countries because Jewish history is mainly about the history of Judaism and those who adhere to it, and it is not about renegades who negate not just their Judaism. and their Jewish identity, but also the very essence and notion of JEWISH History. For this same reason Jesus is not really part of normative Jewish history but yet he could be included in an article about the "History of the Jews in Judea". I hope I am making myself clear. IZAK (talk) 18:27, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support "Jewish history in" for the "History of" articles, aside from possible exceptions where "History of" is the WP:COMMONNAME. It's an improvement to clunky wording and there isn't any loss of meaning or ambiguity, the semantic differences are IMO insignificant. Note that I also support proposal 1 above. -M.Nelson (talk) 12:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changing vote to oppose per IZAK and Edelseider. 'Jewish history in' is not a synonym of 'History of [the] Jews in'. A more reasonable synonym might be 'History of Jewish people in'. Still support removing "the" in the initial proposal. -M.Nelson (talk) 11:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: "Jewish history" is the history of the Jewish religion (Judaism), while "History of the Jews" is the history of the people of Jewish ethnicity (converts to Judaism included). For instance, Paul the Apostle is not part of the Jewish history, but he is part of the history of the Jews. --Edelseider (talk) 12:33, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure that "Jewish" necessarily refers to the religion only and not the broader group composed of various people based on ethnicity/ancestry/history/culture/religion/conversion? I would note that Merriam Webster and the OED define the word "Jewish" as not being solely about Judaism. The Wikipedia article for Jewish history also defines its scope as "the history of the Jews, and their nation, religion and culture, as it developed and interacted with other peoples, religions and cultures". Certainly, these are not the be-all end-all of the matter (who can fit the meaning of an identity into a sentence or two?), but they indicate something that I see in the broader media: "Jewish" is used in a variety of ways, and not always to refer to religion. Mysterymanblue (talk) 19:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mysterymanblue—you say "Jewish" is used in a variety of ways, and not always to refer to religion. There are only 2 ways by which one is a Jew—either by conversion or by birth. Bus stop (talk) 19:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I believe that Edelseider was arguing that, because there are many Jews who do not believe in Judaism, it is inappropriate to use the chiefly religious phrase "Jewish history" because it would exclude many non practicing Jews or, indeed, Jews who have renounced their faith. I was arguing that the phrase "Jewish" is less about Judaism and more about Jews, which would include those who do not practice Judaism. Mysterymanblue (talk) 19:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mysterymanblue—"non practicing Jew" is essentially a meaningless phrase. We know what someone means when they say "non practicing Jew" so it has some utility. But ultimately a person isn't a Jew as a consequence of "practicing" or "not practicing". They are a Jew, ultimately, because they either converted to Judaism or they were born Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 20:09, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per IZAK above.Smeat75 (talk) 17:06, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Really, now. The alternative proposal is every bit as unnecessary as the original one. Perhaps if the proposers were to tell us their real reasons for wanting to change the titles of all these articles. Because the ones given make no sense. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:45, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose All these arbitrary, sweeping, wholesale proposals of moving large numbers of articles in a certain field in an indiscriminate manner. No indiscriminate, wholesale measures like this proposed one, which is already turning into a big waste of encyclopedic productive time, is bound to improve WP. Any particular, specific change can be always discussed. But each proposed change will have to be specifically discussed, and then accepted or rejected on the merits. We've had enough of this indiscriminate wholesale change nonsense now, in my view. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 19:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what happens if you propose this on a one-by-one basis for each article:

• Oppose per WP:Consistent. There are two hundred other articles called "History of the Jews in X" and this should be exactly the same.

This discussion must be held on the merits of all of these article titles at the same time because they are all fundamentally similar. Mysterymanblue (talk) 19:23, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Consistency could be always one criterion in discussing the merits of an individual proposal. But no serious proposal of any name change will be determined/decided on the basis of just one single criterion. If there are other criteria that may warrant a specific proposal, they can always override the consistency one. warshy ^(¥¥) 19:39, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly. But there is a long history of unilateral name changes away from "History of Jews in X" for the sake of consistency. This RM is necessary to challenge that idea as a whole. Mysterymanblue (talk) 20:58, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. As the creator of History of the Jews in Sint Maarten and editor of other articles in the series, the alternative proposal concerns me. It does not sound inclusive enough, encompassing all Jews. This is a typical example of Wikipedia:If it ain't broke, don't fix it! gidonb (talk) 20:38, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as per Gidonb and IZAK. -- Olve Utne (talk) 23:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Especially for countries with small populations of Jews, where they haven't been well integrated, or haven't lived for long (mostly post WW2 communities), "Jewish history in Xxxxx" sounds awkward. Laella (talk) 07:32, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as per IZAK. JFW | T@lk 20:10, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Completely and utterly unnecessary per reasons above, Ekki01 (talk) 20:41, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per IZAK. SarahSV ^(talk) 18:05, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]