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At least one of the persons editing this article feels that the Ioachim Chronicle is not a good source for this article. What is wrong with providing the account of Rurik from the Ioachim Chronicle in addition to what is already here? Moonshiner 00:03, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there anytyhing on rosbyggjar except for http://cgi.roslagsmuseet.se/roslagen.shtml ? This one looks pretty thin. If the statement "linguists usually consider this tribe to have been the Ros-byggjar" is true, there must be more evidence of research in this area. One article cannot be credited with "usually". The cited article also exclusively referes to Swedish sources. Is there any relevant, say, Harvard research? H. has a large Slavic department. If there is any substance to rosbyggjar, they must have covered it. If they did not cover it, then it's likely to be untrue. --Gene s 07:19, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
These articles seem to a attract a lot of creative writing, so I just want to make sure: Where does Adam of Bremen write that the Rus were from Jutland?--Wiglaf 13:33, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This article was seriously slanted. I have tried to fix the most serious problems.--Wiglaf 06:11, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that we remove any scholarship which bases its theories on "lost sagas" and "lost chronicles". It appears to be acceptable in the former Soviet union to do so, but it is questionable whether the products of such scholarship belong in Wikipedia.--Wiglaf 08:33, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
While I find Proto-Norse fascinating and in some fields can't bolster my enthusiasm for it, there are some places it doesn't belong. For example: I can't see why there is a need for an unattested P-N form of the name Rörik in this article. Could anyone cite a good reason as to why? Otherwise, wouldn't it better be deleted as to avoid confusion? And remember always to put an asterisk before an unattested name or word. Asdfgl 23:19, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
After the sons of Godfred had thrown Harald Klak out of Denmark several times, despite or perhaps because of his support from the frankish emperor, the emperor granted him a fief or desmene called Rüstringen covering Friesland and the lands between the Elbe and the Weser. After Harald´s death his nephew Rurik inherited the desmene. Perhaps the name Rus comes from Rüstringen.
While the article is well-written, there are some dubious passages. I tried to remove these, but the changes were reverted. The first issue that annoys me is that it describes the Novgorod mound as similar to "regal kurgans of Yngling kings" (i.e. the kurgans at Old Uppsala). First a picky comment: in what way similar to the Uppsala kurgans? Why similar to the Uppsala kurgans and not just any big kurgan? Recall that the Uppsala kurgans are from the 5th and 6th centuries and thus are not contemporary with the 9th century Novgorod kurgan.
A more serious issue is that the article should be more careful when referring to Yngling kings. The existence of the Yngling kings are by modern mainstream historians considered at best unprovable and at worst a nationalistic and romantic fairytale (if you don't believe me, please just go to Old Uppsala and read the information signs at the mounds). The article would be better if it represented (or at least mentioned) the present-day consensus. Anyway, the Ynglings are not relevant to this article and the passage could as well be removed.
In a similar vein, the article states as follows: "likened by the chronicler to [...] Gotlanders (Goths)". Did the chronicler refer to Gotlanders, Goths, or both? While there may possibly be an ancient connection between Gotlanders and Goths, this is based on speculation and shouldn't be stated as a fact in this (unrelated) article. Anyway, this tenuous connection can hardly have been relevant in the time of Rurik, more than half a millenium after the supposed emigration.--Kallerdis 10:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Note. Kallerdis voices the opinions of the so-called "hypercritical school" in Scandinavian history, with proponents such as Krag.Isse
I'm on your title "The Varangians in Russia". It seems to be not quite correct title, Russia did not exist the time, even Rus did not exist. "Russia" has appeared in some 17th or 18th, before it was Kievan Rus or Rus (root land for many modern states as Russia, Ukraine). And in 9th century when Rurik came to Ladoga there was no even such name as Rus. This image made by Nicholas Roerich originally titled Guests from Overseas (1899) and the subject has nothing to do with USSR, CIS or Russia :-) Stanislav
At last I am quite satesfied of the results published in the genetic testing of Ruiderik or shall we at last say Ruurikka family. What have been known for a long time is the fact that the Roslagen archipelago was inhabited by the Islanders ie Saaristolaiset, which were a mixture of Finno Ugrians both from Moonsund (Hiiumaa, Saaremaa, Muhu) archipelago in Aestland and Ahvena (Åland) archipelago in Vinland. This test confirms also the early connection with the connection with "Alte Finnisch" and Kuuraland (Liiviland) in addition to "Alte Prussische" spoked in Palatsi (Dvor / Hov / Hof) ie. Paltesjuborg, Palatsak, Polotesk, Polotsk, Poltesk, which was a rivaling family to the Ruiderik family which entered to Belarus using Väinäjoki route. Can any of the so called western and eastern theory supporters here provide actual information why Ruiderik and his brothers settled to the places where different dialects of Finno Ugrian language were spoken. Därför at alla dom varu två språkiga människor, som jag under certain condititions. They could easily understand the Tikaspuu (Ladder) language which was spoken at Uuslinna, Ispori, and Valgetjärv. The claim that Laatokka was deserted as one can to believe from the text of the main article, until the Varjaagi and Russi become to scene is one of the last big lies in Indo-European history made only to legimitate the development. Similar battle is also going on with the origin of Sakalibas on Volgar Bolgharia between the Tatars and Russians. When reading the Belarus history I personally believe to the theory of twofold entering to Roshland or shall we say Oruss or Uruss or ad-Dir depending the sources you use. Pritsak has made a good start to start the new research. I was also personally suprised when visited in Jukatan Peninsula in Mexico to see so many pure Finnish placenames there, even some rareties which never should be existing there. Taken as it is when looking through (peharps Ghirla tep) created arlicles of Ruiderik families in Russia that Chernigov (Tjäringova or Tjärnagova) was the main base of Dane, Göta (Guta), Svea origin families, and Soldal /Suzdal and Rosta / Rostov both with mixture of Finno Ugrian, Russian and Norwegian / Swede origin families. According to Pritsak, Rahvalod / Rangvald was for sure historical person and his roots may be found also from western sources. Rahvalod´s grande sonne is recorder as Izjaslau Uladzhimiravich in 988 at Polatsak. Jersida along the Väinäjoki / Dvzina sounds much more common Scandinavian Viking name when you make it Björn (Bear) Jernsida (Ironside) by adding simply n in it. Ironside is much more common like Thorhammar, Bloodhand and other Swedish Viking names.
For the "Tale of Bygone Years" transliteration to English I am using the splendid Old Slavonic text by Academic Dimitri Sergejevitsh Lihashov like this; "They drived varjaags behind the sea nor did they pay taxes for them and started they rule themselves. But they had no interminded common justice and rose a kin against a kin and they had intermingled quarrels and started they war against each kin against another. And said they to each others; Lets find a ruhtinaz (knäjz) who rules us and makes justified judgements. And went they to the other side of sea to Varjags, Rusjs (Rhoshs). Those Varjags call themselves Rusj (Rhoshs) as the other call themselves Sveas (Sveeas), some Normans (normanneiksi), and Anglijs (angleiksi), and as some to Gotlanders (gotlantilaisiksi), so what, so they were called. Said the Tshuudis, Meris, Sloveenes, Krivetshis, and Vepsäs "Land of ours is big and large, but there is no order in it. Come and to rule us. And chosen was three brothers with their kin and these took with them a lot of Rusjs (Rhohs) and settled the eldist - Rurik - To Novgorod (Novaharod / Uuslinna), second - Sineus - to Beloozero (Valgetjärv), and the third - Truvor - to Izborsk (Ispora). And from these Varjags got the name of Land of Rusjs".
Why not show in the article that Tshuds, Meris, and Veps were Finno Ugrians, Slovenes and Krivitshes (Crivitai) western Old Slavonic peoples.
Or peharps use a deleting finger again and remove this article from this page as so many time before. Had you understanding of Finnish language you could not delete the the text of;
And Adjeigluborg was not Staraja Ladoga or Laatokankaupunki. It was at Alavoistenjoki, on place named Alavoinen, an old kauppapaikka (Torgovaja) at Aunuksen kannas (Olonets Isthmus) where a fortres named Alvoistenlinna (castle or krepost) was built giving easy access through nearby mouth of Syvärinjoki (Svir) and Äänisjärv Ozero Onjega) and through Andoma and Kemi to Valgetjärv and beyond by Sheksna and Valgia. There were three Varjagi settlements nearby each other on the south east corner of Lake Laatokka of whose shores had been inhabited since 7000 BC and at least since by 5000 BC by Finno Ugrian peoples. One settlement was located on the mouth of Syysjoki, between Olhavanjoki and Syvärinjoki making direct connection to Mologa River and thence to via Valgia to Ieroslav and Obran Osh.
North of Vytegra toward Puutoistenjoki (where Suiskin Ushakoff kin was found) you find the Antomaa (Andoma) and east of Vytegra Kemi (Kemsk), origin of two Rurik kin Valgetjärven Andomaat (Andomsky) and Valgetjärven Kemiläiset (Kemsky) nearby you find also Uhtomaan (Ukhtomsky). Suiski is pure Karelian / Veps name. When you Russificate this name as was done when they adopted Russian Orthodox faith when all baptized received Slavonic names it become Shuisky. And large was the kin of Suiskis. You find Bruhtarin Suiskit, Glazanin Suiskit, Horvatin Suiskit, Kirdjapinin Suiskit, Skopinin Suiskit, and main root kin of Suiski from Soldal / Suzdal. Thus it seems nearly all of Soldal / Suzdal Ruideriks were Suiskis.
First came the Gutas which become Gothos from Gotland which had also Vinland name Vuojonmaa and Aestland name Ojamaa which is in daily use in Estonia. Finnish name have changed to Gotlanti. In c.200 - 250 AD every third of the creative Gutalanders at best age (16 - 30) hade to leave their countrey to auoide ouer population. They went to Väinäjoki and thence to southern direction. On their voyage some stopped to stay and founded little settlements named Holm (Island in alte Swede which turned in Old Slavonic to Kholm (knoll / hillock). Just follow the river routes and you find hundreds of Kholms in Land of Rosh. The southeners called the new settlers Sadumians, those living east of Dinjeper Ostro Sadumians (Gothos) and those wast of Dinjeper Visi Sadumians (Gothos). This according to Djagfar tarikhy as explaned by Professor Zufur Miftakhov.
Then whole Scandinavia emptied again when the Vandals come from there to settle east of Deutsch area of Pommerania. Next wave come in c.750 when the Vikings founded a settlement Aldeigjuborg Staraja Ladoga at Ladoga. In 793 the Norsemen destroyed Lindesfarne monastery in England and the age of Vikings begun. So in Indo-Eoropean main stream of history writing. How there were such a stupid peoples on the east coast of Baltic sea that they could not even sail at sea or do anything which is noted in history. No, they just appeared from sky when the history needed to be legimitated in the Indo-European Crusades toward east and Slavonic "controlling" toward north. They (Slavonians) built more ships and boats on the shores of White Sea than there was populaition according to the "offical" history and their history always start when they arrived. The Land was empty and deserted .... But the original text in Nestor´s Chronicle use purje instead of sail and laiva instead of ship. Strange, isn´t it. Uisko was Uishkui used by the Novgorodian river pirates and Gotland had onion churches. Black Sea was called Sea of Russ etc. Cheers.
|I find this study fascinating and if true, gives us a much wider picture of the history of this era while still bringing up more questions. How influential and widespread were the Finnic tribes on the affairs of the peoples known as Varangians? Do we know if some Finnic peoples were Varangians as the Project states Rurik as being? Were these Varangians less homogenously Germanic as previously thought? Where they defined as opposed to the Slavic and other Uralic peoples, as is currently believed, or was it a much more diverse association of people?
I'm not necessarily endorsing the Project either way, but it has piqued my curiosity.| CormanoSanchez (talk) 19:54, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
It doesn´t give you any picture at all since the "study" is of no scientific value whatsoever. No one knows Rurik haplogroup since we don't have access to his DNA. The only way to know the DNA of the Rus/Varangians is to acually find their bones. If we find graves that we clearly can say are Rus/Varangian then we can analyse the DNA and then compare it with DNA from different geographical areas.
Dalregementet (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
If I may jump in here, I am one of the co-administrators of the Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=goals). You are correct - the only sure way to resolve the question of Rurik's ethnic origin along his paternal line would be to find his bones, positively identify these as being his and not someone else's, and then study the Y-chromosomal DNA of these bones. There is the burial mound near Novgorod, known as Shum Gora (Russian for "Noise Mountain") that is alleged to be Rurik's grave. Seismic tests of this mound indicate buried stone structures and artificial cavities. The mound has not yet been excavated, due to lack of funds. If Rurik is indeed buried therein, and if any of his bones or teeth have survived, then it may be possible to extract his Y-DNA. Usually this is very difficult with such old remains, but not necessarily impossible (unlike with the maternal-line mtDNA, which survives much longer). In the meantime, the Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project is doing what is currently possible, which is to study the Y-chromosomal DNA of acknowledged and probable princely descendants of Rurik (as well as many other men who think they may possibly be descended from Rurik) in order to try to ascertain some kind of pattern from these. The project also seeks to do this with the descendants of Gediminas (Gedymin). Science does not deal with certainty, but rather with probabilities, and thus we seek to establish the probability of the line of descent. The information presented elsewhere in this discussion, namely, that so far only two modern princes have taken the test, is old. What follows is the latest information (as of March 15, 2010) from the project, as written by Dr. Andrzej Bajor, the project administrator, and edited by me for standard English - this information is reproduced here by permission of Dr. Bajor:
"The administrators of this project until 2008 were co-operating with Stepan Kravchenko and Nikita Maximov, who are the Editor-in-Chief and the Scientific Editor of the Russian Newsweek Magazine, respectively. The Russian Newsweek had tested the first two Rurikid princes.
"The first of these two was Prince Dmitri Mikhailovich Shahovskoi of Paris, France, the prominent Professor at the Russian Orthodox Institute, who made the 1st Y-DNA test in the Rurikid dynasty (at the end of 2006). Unexpectedly, he was found to be descended from a Finno-Ugrian background (genetic haplogroup N1c1 - earlier it was described as N3a). The 2nd one was Professor Andrei Petrovich Gagarin of St. Petersburg, Russia. His Y-DNA test result matched that of Prof. Shahovskoi. Professor Gagarin's test was confirmed later by the test of his cousin, Grigori Grigorievich Gagarin. Andrei Gagarin is also the 1st Rurikid prince to have done a Deep Clade N test (this proved that his haplo is, in fact, N1c1); in addition, after he joined the Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project, he also upgraded his test up to 67 markers (FTDNA Co.'s standard).
"Next came Alexandr Solomin. For very many years he has declared that his family was, in fact, a lost branch of the Monastyrev family. The Monastyrevs of Smolensk lost the rights to their princely title as early as the 16th century. Since his Y-DNA test result matched those of Shahovskoi and Gagarin, he became the representative of the 1st family, unknown to genealogists, which proved its princely descent by Y-DNA testing. However, another test done later by Prince Nikolai Rzhevsky of the Smolensk branch showed that Alexandr is not descended from this branch of the Rurikid dynasty. Most probably he is descended from early Rurikids, but not necessarily from the princes of Smolensk.
"The 4th one was Nikita Dmitrievich Lobanov-Rostovsky of Great Britain, whose result matches the remaining three.
"The 5th one (or the 6th one after G.G. Gagarin) was Nikolai Rzhevsky of the Smolensk stock. Shortly thereafter Andrei P. Gagarin he also made his Deep Clade N test to prove his N1c1 haplo.
"These six princes are descended from St. Vladimir Monomakh. Their genetic haplo (N1c1) can be explained like this: the Roslagen seashore (slightly north of Stockholm, Sweden, where Rurik was supposed to have been born) until approx. the 4th/5th centuries A.D., was inhabited mainly by a Finno-Ugrian population. The Norse Vikings and Goths were also living in this region and were mixed with the native Finns. However, Finnish genes survived on the paternal lines. Their test results were later matched and confirmed by the tests done by the following princes from Russia: Putyatin, Kropotkin, Khilkov, Vadbolsky and Myshetsky. Although Prince Kropotkin by all means is a Rurikid, probably he is not descended on the Smolensk branch.
"The other two princes, Volkonsky and Obolensky, who are descended from Oleg Svatoslavovich (grandson of St. Yaroslav Mudry (the Wise)) are genetic Slavs (haplo R1a1). Their test results were later confirmed by a test done by another Prince Volkonsky. It seems that it was probably the king of Poland, Boleslaw II Smialy, who broke the genetic line of the Kievan Rurikoviches. In 1069 he visited Kiev with his troops. However, he escaped from Kiev shortly thereafter. The reason for this was not given by historians. He also visited Kiev in the years 1077/78 (he spent more than one year in Kiev). Their genetic haplos are typical for western Slavs, and especially for the Wielkopolska (Greater Poland) region in Poland, where the Polish royal Piast dynasty established their first princedom. Nevertheless, more explanations may exist, and these are still to be sought for.
"Prince Jakub Maria Puzyna was believed to be descended from Oleg Svatoslavovich of Kiev. However, he is not. Most probably he is not a direct descendant of Rurik. However, he is at least descended from one of Rurik's closest relatives.
"Prince Piotr Szuyski (most probably he is the last Shuyski in the world; his ancestor escaped from Moscow to the Gr. Duchy of Lithuania) was believed to be descended from St. Vladimir Monomakh. However, he is not. He is somehow related by blood with Prince Volkonsky. This puzzle can be solved by Y-DNA tests carried out among the Lyapunov and Shemyakin families (certainly, provided that the Shemyakins are descended from Prince Dmitri Shemyaka).
"By no means is Prince Stanislaw Antoni Czetwertynski a genetic descendant of Rurik. His genetic haplo (I2a2) is typical for the native population of the Ukrainian and Belarusian Polissyia region. This can also mean that Prince Tur(e), who founded the Turov-Pinsk princely dynasty, wasn't at all a genetic descendant of Rurik.
"Currently, it has been discovered that the marker # 41 (DYS 395S1b) may play a considerable role in the genealogy of the Rurikid dynasty. This marker seems to be invariant in a genetic clan. It was found that Princes Gagarin and Puzyna inherited a rare mutation (18) in this marker.
"My private database is here http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mozhayski/teksty/ydna.html .
"The database also includes Gediminid princes.
"Bogdan Korybut-Woroniecki was found to be descended from a Swedish or Norwegian Viking (genetic haplo I1a). However, experts of the Polish Association of Nobility don't believe that he is a genuine Gediminid prince. In my opinion he is descended from one of the native Lithuanian princes.
"Prince Tonu Trubetsky (he is a famous musician nicknamed Tony Blackplait) is descended from the Gediminid Trubetskoi princes. His family tree since Gedimin is well documented. He was found to be descended from the native Lithuanian population. And this seemed reasonable, since from Stryjkowski's chronicle (end of 16th century) it follows that the early Gediminid princes spoke Lithuanian as their native tongue. Alas, Tonu Trubetsky's branch was broken by someone in the past [Tonu Trubetsky is of the R1a1 haplotype]. Most probably an adoption unknown to historians occurred in this branch of the Trubetsky princes. Besides, this is what the Trubetsky princes wrote in Obshchiy Gerbovnik Rassiyskoi Imperii (Armorial of the Russian Empire, vol. 2, St. Petersburg 1798). That Gedimin was descended from St. Vladimir the Great of Kiev on the Polotsk branch seems to be uncertain from the point of view of true genetics. In spite of the lack of close blood relations between the Rurikids and the Gediminids, one may, however, think of "political" family relations, i.e., that both princely lines were related in another way to each other: namely, in the Suzdal Chronicle (Suzdalskaya Letopis') one can find a text dealing with the siege of Polotsk by St. Vladimir the Great of Kiev. From this it comes out, that ROGNEDA, the future wife of St. Vladimir, as well as mother of his sons, HAD HER OWN SON from her 1st MARRIAGE. It's then quite probable that IZIASLAV VLADIMIROVICH of POLOTSK was, in fact, AN ADOPTED SON of St. Vladimir.
"Prince Askold Georgievich Khovanskii, whose ancestors were genuine Gediminid princes in Russia, is also of Finno-Ugrian descent (N1c1). He matches well with Alex Chartorisky (Czartoryski) of Australia, whose family comes from Russia. They both match well with another Prince Trubecki (Trubetzkoi) of Canada, who, for the time being, doesn't wish to show his Y-DNA test result to the public. Their tests were later confirmed by the tests made by another Trubetzkoy of Russia and Galitzine (Golitsin) of Russia. Their genetic haplos depart from those of the Rurikids. By no means were the Gediminid princes descended from St. Vladimir of Kiev. Currently, it seems that the Gediminids and Rurikids shared a common male ancestor in the time of Jesus Christ, or slightly later.
"Nevertheless, the project is seeking other princes of Gediminid descent, such as Trubecki (Trubetskoi), Golicyn (Galitzine), Chowanski (Khovansky) and Kurakin (Kurakine). Others, such as Czartoryski, Sanguszko and Koriatowicz-Kurcewicz, are rarely met in the world anymore.
"Prince Jerzy Czartoryski of Canada decided to make his Y-DNA test in spite of what historians speculate(d) about the descent of his princely branch. It is believed that his G...Grandmother, Princess Izabela Czartoryska (nee Fleming) had her 1st son with the Rurikid Prince Nikolai Vasilievich Repnin, while it was Armand-Louis de Gontaut-Biron, Duc de Lauzun, who fathered the 2nd son, Konstanty, from whom Prince Jerzy has descended. Prince Jerzy was found to be descended from a Germanic tribe (R1b1). He can still be descended from the French, since the majority of them are of Germanic origin. This is what counts here: that Prince Jerzy inherited the title of Prince, as well as family tradition, from his legitimate ancestors, the Czartoryski princes. On the other hand, however, providing that he is really descended from the Gontaut-Birons, this duly means that he is a genetic descendant of an old French family, having their roots in the 12th century, that may also eventually belong to one of the ruling dynasties (the Merovingians, or the Carolingians)."Metsamies (talk) 17:40, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Queen Elizabeth 2 is related to him, should this be said in the article? This is what I found, if something is wrong, then Wikipedia are wrong.
Rurik
Igor of Kiev
Sviatoslav I of Kiev
Vladimir I of Kiev
Yaroslav I the Wise
Iziaslav I of Kiev
Sviatopolk II of Kiev
Predslava of Kiev
Béla II of Hungary
Andrew II of Hungary
Violant of Hungary
Isabella of Aragon
Philip IV of France
Isabella of France
Edward III of England
Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence
Philippa of Ulster
Roger Mortimer, Earl of March
Anne Mortimer
Richard Plantagenet, Duke of York
Edward IV of England
Elizabeth of York
Margaret Tudor
James V of Scotland
Mary I of Scotland
James I of England
Elizabeth of Bohemia
Sophia of the Palatinate
George I of Great Britain
George II of Great Britain
Frederick, Prince of Wales
George III of the United Kingdom
Prince Edward Augustus
Victoria of the United Kingdom
Edward VII of the United Kingdom
George V of the United Kingdom
George VI of the United Kingdom
Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom
There is a contradiction in the article, about the disputed origin:
"So far, only two modern Rurikid princes have agreed to take this DNA test. Their results indicate that their male line originated in Uppland province in Sweden. So far, one Swede shares 11 of the prince's markers, and he believes that his own male line goes back to the 15th century in Roslagen. The DNA results of modern Rurikid princes indicate that Rurik was of Finno-Ugrian descent (haplogroup N3a1)."
So, the same DNA results show that Rurik was both of Swedish and Finno-Ugrian descent! Well? I heard (couldnt locate it in tghe text) That the varagarian Gurad were mercenaries protecting Islamic Potenetates etc/ Is this tgrue?THEEDSON1 (talk) 00:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
See "Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project", above, for updated information about this. Many more than the original two princes have by now had their DNA tested. The entry also explains how Rurik could have been of both Finnish and Swedish ancestry (although only the Finnish line shows up on the Y-DNA test). I don't know anything about the Varangian Guard protecting Islamic potentates, however - they protected the Orthodox Christian Byzantine Emperors.Metsamies (talk) 21:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
The pages about Rurik and Rus is of poor quality. There are new research in the subject of Rurik and Rus by the archeologist Wladyslaw Duczko. In his (exspensive) book, Viking Rus: studies on the presence of Scandinavians in Eastern Europe, all relevant historical sources regarding Rus are listed and analyzed as well as new archeological material. Wladyslaw Duczko also states in his book, that the origin of Rus is no longer disputed, not even by russian archeologists. That because of the overwhelming material, historical and archeological, that unambigously points at Sweden for the origin of the Rus people.
It is therefore strange that Wikipedia:
Dalregementet (talk) 12:03, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
|Provide the sources that dispute the Bajor study so this can be clarified.| CormanoSanchez (talk) 15:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
This is obviously a newsrelease from the project.
"Here is the latest data, as of March 15, 2010, from Dr. Bajor (reproduced here with his permission):
"The administrators of this project until 2008 were co-operating with Stepan Kravchenko and Nikita Maximov, who are the Editor-in-Chief and the Scientific Editor of the Russian Newsweek Magazine, respectively. The Russian Newsweek had tested the first two Rurikid princes.
"The first of these two was Prince Dmitri Mikhailovich Shahovskoi of Paris, France, the prominent Professor at the Russian Orthodox Institute, who made the 1st Y-DNA test in the Rurikid dynasty (at the end of 2006). Unexpectedly, he was found to be descended from a Finno-Ugrian background (genetic haplogroup N1c1 - earlier it was described as N3a). The 2nd one was Professor Andrei Petrovich Gagarin of St. Petersburg, Russia. His Y-DNA test result matched that of Prof. Shahovskoi. Professor Gagarin's test was confirmed later by the test of his cousin, Grigori Grigorievich Gagarin. Andrei Gagarin is also the 1st Rurikid prince to have done a Deep Clade N test (this proved that his haplo is, in fact, N1c1); in addition, after he joined the Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project, he also upgraded his test up to 67 markers (FTDNA Co.'s standard).
"Next came Alexandr Solomin. For very many years he has declared that his family was, in fact, a lost branch of the Monastyrev family. The Monastyrevs of Smolensk lost the rights to their princely title as early as the 16th century. Since his Y-DNA test result matched those of Shahovskoi and Gagarin, he became the representative of the 1st family, unknown to genealogists, which proved its princely descent by Y-DNA testing. However, another test done later by Prince Nikolai Rzhevsky of the Smolensk branch showed that Alexandr is not descended from this branch of the Rurikid dynasty. Most probably he is descended from early Rurikids, but not necessarily from the princes of Smolensk.
"The 4th one was Nikita Dmitrievich Lobanov-Rostovsky of Great Britain, whose result matches the remaining three.
"The 5th one (or the 6th one after G.G. Gagarin) was Nikolai Rzhevsky of the Smolensk stock. Shortly thereafter Andrei P. Gagarin he also made his Deep Clade N test to prove his N1c1 haplo.
"These six princes are descended from St. Vladimir Monomakh. Their genetic haplo (N1c1) can be explained like this: the Roslagen seashore (slightly north of Stockholm, Sweden, where Rurik was supposed to have been born) until approx. the 4th/5th centuries A.D., was inhabited mainly by a Finno-Ugrian population. The Norse Vikings and Goths were also living in this region and were mixed with the native Finns. However, Finnish genes survived on the paternal lines. Their test results were later matched and confirmed by the tests done by the following princes from Russia: Putyatin, Kropotkin, Khilkov, Vadbolsky and Myshetsky. Although Prince Kropotkin by all means is a Rurikid, probably he is not descended on the Smolensk branch.
"The other two princes, Volkonsky and Obolensky, who are descended from Oleg Svatoslavovich (grandson of St. Yaroslav Mudry (the Wise)) are genetic Slavs (haplo R1a1). Their test results were later confirmed by a test done by another Prince Volkonsky. It seems that it was probably the king of Poland, Boleslaw II Smialy, who broke the genetic line of the Kievan Rurikoviches. In 1069 he visited Kiev with his troops. However, he escaped from Kiev shortly thereafter. The reason for this was not given by historians. He also visited Kiev in the years 1077/78 (he spent more than one year in Kiev). Their genetic haplos are typical for western Slavs, and especially for the Wielkopolska (Greater Poland) region in Poland, where the Polish royal Piast dynasty established their first princedom. Nevertheless, more explanations may exist, and these are still to be sought for.
"Prince Jakub Maria Puzyna was believed to be descended from Oleg Svatoslavovich of Kiev. However, he is not. Most probably he is not a direct descendant of Rurik. However, he is at least descended from one of Rurik's closest relatives.
"Prince Piotr Szuyski (most probably he is the last Shuyski in the world; his ancestor escaped from Moscow to the Gr. Duchy of Lithuania) was believed to be descended from St. Vladimir Monomakh. However, he is not. He is somehow related by blood with Prince Volkonsky. This puzzle can be solved by Y-DNA tests carried out among the Lyapunov and Shemyakin families (certainly, provided that the Shemyakins are descended from Prince Dmitri Shemyaka).
"By no means is Prince Stanislaw Antoni Czetwertynski a genetic descendant of Rurik. His genetic haplo (I2a2) is typical for the native population of the Ukrainian and Belarusian Polissyia region. This can also mean that Prince Tur(e), who founded the Turov-Pinsk princely dynasty, wasn't at all a genetic descendant of Rurik.
"Currently, it has been discovered that the marker # 41 (DYS 395S1b) may play a considerable role in the genealogy of the Rurikid dynasty. This marker seems to be invariant in a genetic clan. It was found that Princes Gagarin and Puzyna inherited a rare mutation (18) in this marker.
"My private database is here http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mozhayski/teksty/ydna.html .
"The database also includes Gediminid princes.
"Bogdan Korybut-Woroniecki was found to be descended from a Swedish or Norwegian Viking (genetic haplo I1a). However, experts of the Polish Association of Nobility don't believe that he is a genuine Gediminid prince. In my opinion he is descended from one of the native Lithuanian princes.
"Prince Tonu Trubetsky (he is a famous musician nicknamed Tony Blackplait) is descended from the Gediminid Trubetskoi princes. His family tree since Gedimin is well documented. He was found to be descended from the native Lithuanian population. And this seemed reasonable, since from Stryjkowski's chronicle (end of 16th century) it follows that the early Gediminid princes spoke Lithuanian as their native tongue. Alas, Tonu Trubetsky's branch was broken by someone in the past [Tonu Trubetsky is of the R1a1 haplotype]. Most probably an adoption unknown to historians occurred in this branch of the Trubetsky princes. Besides, this is what the Trubetsky princes wrote in Obshchiy Gerbovnik Rassiyskoi Imperii (Armorial of the Russian Empire, vol. 2, St. Petersburg 1798). That Gedimin was descended from St. Vladimir the Great of Kiev on the Polotsk branch seems to be uncertain from the point of view of true genetics. In spite of the lack of close blood relations between the Rurikids and the Gediminids, one may, however, think of "political" family relations, i.e., that both princely lines were related in another way to each other: namely, in the Suzdal Chronicle (Suzdalskaya Letopis') one can find a text dealing with the siege of Polotsk by St. Vladimir the Great of Kiev. From this it comes out, that ROGNEDA, the future wife of St. Vladimir, as well as mother of his sons, HAD HER OWN SON from her 1st MARRIAGE. It's then quite probable that IZIASLAV VLADIMIROVICH of POLOTSK was, in fact, AN ADOPTED SON of St. Vladimir.
"Prince Askold Georgievich Khovanskii, whose ancestors were genuine Gediminid princes in Russia, is also of Finno-Ugrian descent (N1c1). He matches well with Alex Chartorisky (Czartoryski) of Australia, whose family comes from Russia. They both match well with another Prince Trubecki (Trubetzkoi) of Canada, who, for the time being, doesn't wish to show his Y-DNA test result to the public. Their tests were later confirmed by the tests made by another Trubetzkoy of Russia and Galitzine (Golitsin) of Russia. Their genetic haplos depart from those of the Rurikids. By no means were the Gediminid princes descended from St. Vladimir of Kiev. Currently, it seems that the Gediminids and Rurikids shared a common male ancestor in the time of Jesus Christ, or slightly later.
"Nevertheless, the project is seeking other princes of Gediminid descent, such as Trubecki (Trubetskoi), Golicyn (Galitzine), Chowanski (Khovansky) and Kurakin (Kurakine). Others, such as Czartoryski, Sanguszko and Koriatowicz-Kurcewicz, are rarely met in the world anymore.
"Prince Jerzy Czartoryski of Canada decided to make his Y-DNA test in spite of what historians speculate(d) about the descent of his princely branch. It is believed that his G...Grandmother, Princess Izabela Czartoryska (nee Fleming) had her 1st son with the Rurikid Prince Nikolai Vasilievich Repnin, while it was Armand-Louis de Gontaut-Biron, Duc de Lauzun, who fathered the 2nd son, Konstanty, from whom Prince Jerzy has descended. Prince Jerzy was found to be descended from a Germanic tribe (R1b1). He can still be descended from the French, since the majority of them are of Germanic origin. This is what counts here: that Prince Jerzy inherited the title of Prince, as well as family tradition, from his legitimate ancestors, the Czartoryski princes. On the other hand, however, providing that he is really descended from the Gontaut-Birons, this duly means that he is a genetic descendant of an old French family, having their roots in the 12th century, that may also eventually belong to one of the ruling dynasties (the Merovingians, or the Carolingians)."Metsamies (talk) 02:51, 20 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.234.211 (talk)
the following text was advanced about the meaning of genetical results:
The Y DNA test results show genetical agnatic kinship within the past two millennia to about a hundred tested Finnish men. This weight of numbers is a strong support for the Finno-Ugric genetic origin of Rurikids.
The haplotype to which Rurikids belong, formed only a few millennia ago (so it cannot precede Uralic expansion), and is not widely distributed from Scandinavia to Beringia, but instead present in Finnic or formerly Finnic populations. Although there is a small possibility that the forefathers of Rurik have never spoken any Uralic language, the much higher likelihood favors that his forefathers two millennia ago were speaking Finnic in Baltic region.
Although (thanks to lazy 'Uralists') there possibly is not yet published evidence that N1c1-men in Eastern Sweden ever spoke any Uralic (even Finnic) language, the likelihood that Rurik's forefathers came there speaking Finnic language, is much higher than having shifted their language to any Germanic when still living east of the Baltic Sea. It is waited that 'Uralists' bother to research the linguistical remnants and traces in Sweden, as well archaeologists to research whether for example religious finds indicate Finnic gods' worship in eastern Sweden. Meanwhile we are to be left only with genetical finds from eastern Sweden which affirm a number of N1c1 patrilines (genetically closely related to ones living in Finnish-speaking Finland) there, long established and living in the present day. Some linguists allege it to be a a methodological error to predict a language from genes, claiming that language is never connected to genes, and in this sort of phariseism they would not even consider any probabilities in the matter, however well the chronology would fit, and however difficult would it to explain any other flow of events.
As long as we don't have Rurik's skeleton to analyze, there is no point in discussing genetics in this article. You want to discuss the genetics of Rurikids, go to the Rurikids article. --dab (𒁳) 13:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Re this, you clearly do not understand the policy you invoke. Read WP:DUE. These are completely fanciful (Tatishchev) and discredited (Rybakov) views, and "NPOV" means that our article presents them as such. Not mentioning that a view is without merit when it is in fact without merit is a violation of NPOV. --dab (𒁳) 13:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
What does this suppose to mean? How could Peter of Holstein-Gottorp (who was only Romanov through his mother) and Catherine of Anhalt-Zerbst (who had none Romanov neither Rurikid blood) unite Romanovs with Rurikids? 83.167.126.220 (talk) 19:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)helcanorion
a lot of sites list Rurik as the son of Halfdan, Margave of Frisia, well it seems shady, it does require some consideration. there seems to be some confusion between this Rurik and Rorik of Dorestad(who did rule in Frisia). Tinynanorobots (talk) 05:07, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
According to Djagfar Tarihi chronicles, Rurik's original name was Lachyn. Djagfar Tarihi in English — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xxlrutin (talk • contribs) 15:00, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
An Outdated source in this sentence: The Rurikid haplotype itself (all 67 markers considered) is more closely associated with Northern Germanic language speakers.[3]
When you read the source( ^ Stratification of Y-haplogroup N1c, Jaakko Häkkinen. August 5, 2010. University of Helsinki.), it reads at the top that it's outdated and redirects to: http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/jphakkin/N1c1.xps
The updated version says: "The true Rurikids (members of noble Russian families) belong to the Scandinavian group, and their closest relatives are found in the coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns. Their brother group (clan of Tawast–Räihä) is found among the Western Finns."
(So, at the moment at least, the source concludes little of interest. The south-western coast of Finland, including Åland, and the Uppland part of the Swedish coast apparently had strong ties during the Viking era. If Rurik was from Roslagen it wouldn't be a big surprise if he had relatives in Finland.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.222.108.56 (talk) 07:16, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
In the 20th century, archaeologists partly corroborated the chronicle's version of events,[1][clarification needed] but mostly the excavations denied most of the chronicle's data about Rurik's arrival when it was apparent that the old settlement stretched to the mid-8th century and the excavated objects were mostly of Finnish-Ugric and Slavic origin, dated to the mid-8th century, which showed the settlement was not Scandinavian from the beginning.[2][page needed]
My very modest edit, consisting only of wikilinking two key terms Finnish-Ugric and Slavic, has been reversed here by User:Iryna Harpy. If the assertion made in the article is true, and it's difficult to check the source, then one would expect it to be consistent with other Wikipedia articles on similar topics. There is no entry in Wikipedia for Finnish-Ugric. The term appears to be bogus, made up by the contributor, or a mistranslation of the original language. Indeed, there is no term in the English language Finnish-Ugric in common use. Rather, the term in use is Finno-Ugric. Rather than amend the bogus term Finnish-Ugric to Finno-Ugric, however, as perhaps I ought to have done, I left it in place and wikilinked it to the correct term of Finno-Ugric.
The second tiny change I made was to wikilink Slavic as Slavic because "Slavic" of course leads to the Slavic disambiguation page.
The issue of citing sources per se does not apply here. The issue is the use of bogus terms, or or terms that are misleading. Either the citation supports the contention that the excavated objects were mostly of Finnish-Ugric and Slavic origin or it does not. If the citation does support the assertion, then the term Finnish-Ugric needs to be replaced with Finno-Ugric, unless a case can be made for the introduction of a new term Finnish-Ugric. Secondly, if the citation supports the assertion that the objects were of Slavic origin, then, if the author did not mean by this that the objects were made by Slavic persons, ie members of a cultural group known as the Slavic People, this also needs to be explained or amplified in the Wikipedia article.
What I hope that most us can agree is that it is unacceptable to have vague, undefined, bogus terms floating around in Wikipedia articles. Define them or replace them. Link them or write a new Wikipedia article for the new term - if it is justified (which here it is almost certainly not). 124.186.104.184 (talk) 03:50, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Assuming Rurik is Norse, his original name should be rendered "Hrøríkr/Hrøríkʀ". This same name is cited multiple times in various runestones (U934, Ög153, Sö159 etc.) usually as "Hrurikʀ". The second element, "-ríkʀ", is known to have length based on Icelandic and Faroese reflexes in "ríkur", and the first element, "hrø-" possibly comes from ON "hrøʀ" meaning "corpse". This view is supported by Rundata which cites "HrøRikR" as a standardised rendering of the name in Ög153 and U934. Various alternatives, such as "Hrœríkr", have been explained as variants of "Hrøríkr" by Ola Stemshaug and Kristoffer Kruken in the Norsk Personnamnleksikon (1995) Darkgamma (talk) 07:31, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
Who wrote this: "Genetic investigation See also: List of haplogroups of historical and famous figures § N (Y-DNA)
According to the FamilyTreeDNA Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project, Rurik appears to have belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1, based on testing of his modern male line descendants.[6] Contrary to the Norman theory of the origin of the Kievan Rus' state, N1c1 is not widely found in Scandinavian countries, but is overwhelmingly found among Baltic and Finnish ethnicities. The N1c1 haplotype possess the distinctive value DYS390=23, also rarely found in Scandinavia, but with the closest relatives of the Rurikid haplotype being found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns.[7]"
When i red the source [7] - http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/N1c1.pdf, it does not mention DYS390=23 to more present in coastal Finland. Have i missunderstood something in this article, could someone go over it to see? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattamatikk (talk • contribs) 15:10, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
The legend, connecting Rurik and the site was invented only in XXI century. See e.g. here (in russian). Even though it is not impossible, that one of the burials somewhere contains Rurik's body, and especially in a big mound, this was connected to him very late and by amateurs. Macuser (talk) 10:21, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
@Agricolae: http://yfull.com is WP:RS and it DOES claim what I'm saying. Those with the Russian flag are official Rurikid princes. A Stockholm viking had a male-line common ancestor with them around year 300 AD. Also, this source is good on other relatives - most of them as far as year 600 BC are in the Stockholm area. And this source is also good on earlier descent. https://yfull.com/tree/N-Y4339/ https://web.archive.org/web/20181206210017/https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/n-russia-dna-project/activity-feed --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 21:59, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
@Iryna Harpy: @Agricolae: Is this WP:RS http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Rurikid.pdf
Concerning those "letter-digit-letter-digit" nomenclatures, they're being changed from study to study due to the discovery of new ancient lineages. That's why the SNP nomenclature is now preferred.
I'm obliged to mention that you're not extremely competent in genetic genealogy. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 18:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
@Iryna Harpy: @Agricolae: We see that Rurik's 15-th cousin is in Uppland like the rest of the relatives as much ago as year 600 BC. If this particular cousin grew up in Iceland (likely not), that doesn't change much. And by the way, haplogroup N is absolutely absent in Denmark. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 18:20, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
@Iryna Harpy: BOTH the Rurikids AND the skeleton are NOT L392*. They BOTH are Y4339 ! Please ping me. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 06:53, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Y4339 is DOWNSTREAM of L392 . The academic guys did not bother about Y4339 or any SNP from L392 to Y4339, that's why they called it "L392*". They gave their data to Yfull, and Yfull compared it to their full database of individuals, highlighting the presence of Y4339. https://yfull.com/samples-from-paper/15/ Also, here is the skeleton's autosomal profile: it's Scandinavia, not Russia. https://web.archive.org/web/20181220072107/https://pp.userapi.com/c845322/v845322929/ee99b/TeeU7C5B1c8.jpg --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 07:22, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
L392 is downstream of L1026. In your link there are three versions of the same tree, not three big branches.
Iceland was not tested in this autosomal analyses. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 09:47, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Is Russian subsidiary of Newsweek magazine WP:RS ? --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 16:23, 20 December 2018 (UTC) @Agricolae: And a Ukrainian state academy of sciences population geneticist Utevska? --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 18:49, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
I reverted this edit which adds the supposed names of Rurik's parents in the infobox. The problem with this, though, is Rurik's parents are not known (even who exactly Rurik was is also not known). This seems to be part of anti-normanism theories which include Rurik having Slavic origins. Specifically about Gostomysl and his daughter Umila who supposedly had a son called Rurik. Now also promoted by Putin. There is a BBC article I found.[7] Mellk (talk) 00:19, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
To add, it looks like this POV has been pushed on Italian Wikipedia[8][9]. It is borderline fringe but probably the state-sponsored version now. Mellk (talk) 17:37, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
All recent edits made by me were in according with Wikipedia:Be bold in order to achieve Wikipedia:Neutral point of view with sources. So far no valid reasons for removal of facts and sources were given, which is a violation of Wikipedia:Vandalism and Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. Due to variety of edits I made to this page and zero specifics given to improve my edits I had reverted edits to last ones made by me. Further reverts without specifics listed here (imaginary rules not included) I will consider Wikipedia:Edit warring and forward this to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Korwinski (talk) 23:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
@Korwinski: Can you provide a translation of the relevant passage from this book about Wiśniowiecki? Mellk (talk) 15:24, 31 August 2023 (UTC)