Should "Kherson offensive" be capitalized as a proper noun? ("Kherson Offensive")

I believe "Kherson offensive" would refer to a proper noun, as it is the name of a current military offensive. Kiev Offensive is capitalized as such, as well as the concurrent Kyiv Offensive (2022). QuaintCable (talk) 09:10, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Explicit list of battles in the Kherson offensive

There are currently 3 pages for battles in this offensive (Kherson, Melitopol, and Mykolaiv) and it will probably will increase with the siege of Berdiansky and the advance on the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant. I followed the pattern from Feb 26, with a see also for the battle that started that day, but maybe there should be an explicit list of all of the battles from this offensive, instead of having them floating around the text. RGoes (talk) 20:50, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This should be linked to from the main ukraine 2022 invasion page..

Just saw this by chance, very good.... It is not linked in "related articles" section on bottom of Ukraine 2022 invasion page: (Also the sub-invasion links should surely be at the top of that page really, if there is someone reading this doing both pages...). 188.65.190.67 (talk) 16:53, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is linked to the main page through the “2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine” template at the bottom of all of the related pages. Elijahandskip (talk) 16:54, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Same article?

What's the difference between Battle of Kherson and Kherson offensive? PurpleBuffalo (talk) 06:16, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A battle, aka the Battle of Kherson is just the battle for the city named Kherson. The offensive article is the name for the entire large offensive from the Crimea side. I am actually about to start a discussion to rename this offensive article. Elijahandskip (talk) 06:29, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 March 2022

Withdrawing by nominator HurricaneEdgar 07:59, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Kherson offensive → Crimea offensive – The offensive started out appearing the main goal was Kherson, but looking at the map, the Russian forces have gone in three different directions (West toward Kherson, North toward Zaporizhzhia and East toward Mariupol), so I believe this should be renamed to the "Crimea offensive". All three parts of this offensive were launched from Crimea, so it seems like a perfect name choice. Elijahandskip (talk) 06:33, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Adding (2022) at the end is an option, like the Kyiv offensive (2022). Elijahandskip (talk) 07:06, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Splitting proposal - Kherson offensive and Zaporizhzhia offensive

I am proposing to split the offensive article into two offensive articles; The '"Kherson offensive" and the "Zaporizhzhia offensive". Some sources refer to the "Zaporizhzhia region" instead of the "Kherson region" when referencing some of the battles near Zaporizhzhia. Others just refer to the "Zaporizhzhia region" when referring to battles nearby. I am going to list some sources to show this is not WP:OR. Daily Sabah - "Zaporizhzhia region", Crisis24 - "Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions", ABC News - "Zaporizhzhia region", Ukrinform.net - "Zaporizhzhia region", The Guardian - "Zaporizhzhia region".

According to the ABC News article, "Melitopol, a city in the Zaporizhzhia region", meaning the Battle of Melitopol would be considered part of the offensive. That would also mean the Siege of Enerhodar and Battle of Zaporizhzhia articles would be split into the new "Zaporizhzhia offensive" article.

That would leave Battle of Mykolaiv & Battle of Kherson in the "Kherson offensive" article. We would have to decide where to put the Battle of Berdiansk. But sources are indicating a new offensive region, so it is time to split the battles into their correct offensive articles. Elijahandskip (talk) 07:47, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: The reason they refer to specific regions because they're simply talking about the situation in them. No sources say there is a new offensive anywhere. WP:OR. I don't see any point in splitting it. And let's not create a logistical difficulty by orphaning Berdiansk. AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 08:57, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Addition: It also appears that the offensive in the south appears to be part of cutting off Ukraine entirely from the Black Sea. [1] Also reliable sources refer to the south as part of one theater. I think this should be changed to "Southern Ukraine offensive". [2] AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 09:02, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I do not see your WP:OR claim. No sources directly say “Zaporizhzhia offensive”, but as far as I can tell, no sources talk about the Siege of Enerhodar and Battle of Zaporizhzhia, or Battle of Berdiansk as the “Kherson offensive” or “Kherson region”. Multiple RS refer to the “Zaporizhzhia region” in reference to those battles, so clearly, it isn’t the same offensive, otherwise, RS would straight up say it is the same offensive or same region.
In addition to that, the source for the lead[3] does not say “Kherson offensive”, but it says “Kherson region”, so any WP:OR argument on the name change would have to also state that this article was created on WP:OR. Elijahandskip (talk) 09:12, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A source simply mentioning a region doesn't make it a separate offensive. That is WP:OR because offensives can take place in multiple areas. Besides try looking at the Battle of Melitopol. It began right on the first day of invasion and they travelled there from Crimea [4]. The city is in Zaporizhzhia Oblast, so they have to go through Kherson Oblast. You can see the date - 24 February. The operations are part of one single offensive.
I agree that they aren't mentioned as part of "Kherson offensive", but they are mentioned as part of Russia's offensive in the south like Berdiansk [5]. The Washington Post particularly states Russia opened a three front campaign- north, south, east [6]. So I suggest renaming this as "Southern Ukraine offensive" like we have an Eastern Ukraine offensive. AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 09:48, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Southern Ukraine offensive. (Early WP:SNOW close per strong, unanimous consensus.) (non-admin closure) Jr8825 • Talk 13:59, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kherson offensive → Southern Ukraine offensive – Per AbsolutelyFiring, this offensive is taking place in multiple regions/parts of Ukraine aside from Kherson so the present title is inaccurate. "Southern Ukraine offensive" is more accurate and still understandable, and consistent with other pages (e.g. Eastern Ukraine offensive). Dan the Animator 01:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support: As already stated above Russia has or at least seems to have a single goal in attacking Ukraine on the south per reliable sources - cut it off from the sea. And multiple sources call the attacks in the south as part of one single offensive or axis of the campaign. AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 05:35, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support: This offensive clearly has more objectives than just Kherson Spaceman2288 (talk) 16:32, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2022

Please change "Russian forced had captured..." to "Russian forces had captured". Thanks. 2A02:AB04:2AB:700:CD6:4FDB:A01A:875A (talk) 19:01, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Thank you for pointing it. Ridanbp (talk) 20:01, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Voznesensk

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2022

Change the map back from the colorblind one 72.229.242.36 (talk) 20:53, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Already done Happy Editing--IAmChaos 17:59, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"All of Kherson Oblast is under Russian control."

Is not true. As of 14 April 2022, most of the Kherson Oblast is under Russian control, but not all. 82.43.220.16 (talk) 01:09, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That has been updated now. Nurg (talk) 06:08, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2022

imma redirect it to kherson offensive since southern Ukraine offensive name is kinda weird. 2A02:214C:8425:A400:5C1E:65CB:1789:2999 (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the ((edit semi-protected)) template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:09, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Out of context in lede

Moved to here: “ Prior to 8 March, a Russian detachment made its way northwest along the east bank of the Southern Bug river. However, according to the Institute for the Study of War, it is likely that Ukrainian forces have halted this advance because Russian forces are facing growing supply and morale issues.[1] ” Elinruby (talk) 05:49, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, March 11". Institute for the Study of War. Archived 13 March 2022 at the Wayback Machine. Retrieved 12 March 2022.

Scope vs 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive

What are the expected scopes of this article, Southern Ukraine offensive, versus 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive? The current risk is of people redundantly adding material to both. Boud (talk) 13:46, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The scope of the counteroffensive is basically the reverse of the Southern Ukraine offensive. Russian troops enter Kherson and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts in the Southern Ukraine off. article, Ukrainian troops look to fully take back those same Oblasts in the 2022 Ukraine summer counteroff. article. PilotSheng (talk) 18:09, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose President Zelenskyy announced the beginning. This is pretty major. I think it's easy to see why. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:38, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@PilotSheng: I see that 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive was created just yesterday. My guess is that 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive is seen as more or less a sub-article of Southern Ukraine offensive, even though the title 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive is not restricted the southern region only. The non-restrictive title is probably not a problem, at least for the moment, since there doesn't seem to be ambiguity. There have been no announcements of a major Ukrainian Donbas counteroffensive being planned soon, as far as I know. Boud (talk) 13:56, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Boud The 2022 counteroffensive article is not a sub-article of this article. Russian troops are no longer on the "offensive." I do think that the minor Ukrainian counterattacks from March to early July should be a subsection of this article, but the latest order from Zelenskyy is to reclaim all of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts, with which the Ukrainian defense minister claims they have 1,000,000 men to do. This would be a larger scale operation than the Southern Ukraine Offensive itself, and really as such should belong in its own article rather than a subsection of this article. PilotSheng (talk) 18:01, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see that Southern Ukraine offensive refers to the invasion by Russian forces, while 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive refers to Ukrainian forces retaking control of Ukrainian territory. So it would seem to me to make more sense to add material on the counteroffensive to 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive rather than extend the section in this article. Boud (talk) 14:11, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Boud The Hundred Days Offensive was launched as a counterattack to the German spring offensive of 1918.
Operation Uranus and Operation Mars launched as the 1942 Soviet counterattack to the German offensive in the Battle of Stalingrad and to a lesser extent Operation Barbarossa.
The 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive has been launched as a counterattack to the Southern Ukraine offensive.
The Hundred Days Offensive was a much larger operation than the German Spring offensive in terms of firepower, as were Operation Uranus & Mars superior to the 1942 German Stalingrad offensive in terms of morale, manpower, and firepower.
According to the infobox, Russia used 13,000 troops for the Southern Ukraine offensive. Ukraine claims they have 1,000,000 troops in Southern Ukraine ready to take back the occupied territory. Since the 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive is much larger in terms of manpower, firepower, morale, and perhaps even scope, the two articles need to remain separate. PilotSheng (talk) 18:07, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well this changes, there's less than that as you can see. Though we still don't know how much. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:38, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Cinderella157 here. Although there surely are enough sources speculating about a possible huge Ukrainian counteroffensive, mostly by late August. The article could be saved if its scope is changed. Super Ψ Dro 07:29, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Super Dromaeosaurus @Cinderella157 Agreed, I think we should probably move the article to draftspace until the counteroffensive becomes less speculative and concrete. PilotSheng (talk) 16:15, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 October 2022

Southern Ukraine campaign → Southern Ukraine offensive – Procedural nomination, article was moved on 1 August without discussion, whereas a earlier RM gave "offensive". Marcocapelle (talk) 14:29, 21 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 17:20, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support for Southern Ukraine campaign - When this article was created, it only covered the initial Russian offensive. By now, several military offensives and battles have taken place in southern Ukraine, meaning that it is much more accurate to describe it as a military campaign, not just an offensive. Applodion (talk) 16:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Categories