The Hole (Scientology) has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
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A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on February 23, 2013. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that dozens of top Church of Scientology executives have reportedly been confined to The Hole (pictured) and subjected to the Church's "ecclesiastical discipline" system? | |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
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On 25 January 2013, The Hole (Scientology) was linked from Reddit, a high-traffic website. (Traffic) All prior and subsequent edits to the article are noted in its revision history. |
On 15 February 2013, The Hole (Scientology) was linked from Reddit, a high-traffic website. (Traffic) All prior and subsequent edits to the article are noted in its revision history. |
I do think the section titles should be changed. They do not seem neutral at the moment. Really, this should be formatted like any other article about a place or building. First off, have a History section with subsection attached on to that. Then other sections can be proposed from there. SilverserenC 23:56, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Proposed deletion has been overturned; comments here are from people attracted from another website. — Hex (❝?!❞) 13:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
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This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because the stated explanation is complete nonsense - the subject of the article has received high-profile coverage in multiple reliable sources, including a Pullitzer Prize-winning newspaper and a book by a Pullitzer Prize-winning author. Furthermore, the article has already been reviewed and approved for running as a Did you know? article - see Template:Did you know nominations/The Hole (Scientology). Finally, the article has so far had over 105,000 page views in only three days – without any disputes or controversies – and has been highly rated by dozens of readers (though unfortunately the page ratings aren't currently visible due to this speedy deletion request). I also note that the nominator of the speedy deletion has a severe conflict of interest due to being a self-acknowledged member of the Church of Scientology. Prioryman (talk) 18:45, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedily deleted because it is the subject of numerous secondary sources, sufficient to meet GNG, and any NPOV issues can be handled without deletion. --– Muboshgu (talk) 18:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC) Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedily deleted because...it was, first of all, reviewed at Did you know nominations for approval to be a Main Page DYK. It was already vetted by a seasoned editor at DYK. One of the criteria for DYK, is they won't allow attack articles for consideration. The editor who nominated this for Speedy Deletion is by their own admission on their user page, on Wikipedia for the sole reason of defending Scientology. Talk about Conflict of Interest on this article! -— Maile (talk) 19:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC) Yes, I have disclosed that I am editing for WP:NPOV on Scientology-related pages. I don't see why this is a problem. Did you do research on the editor that wrote this article? "Prioryman" has been topic-banned on Scientology and his credibility is questionable. See following links: Furthermore, all the "sources" used in this page go towards the same bias and agenda. There is no neutral source to fall back on. "The Hole" only "reportedly" exists. Why maintain a page when it's all based on allegations?NestleNW911 (talk) 19:15, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I understand your hesitation in having "The Hole" deleted. Yes, I have disclosed my identity as a Scientologist and one of my main concerns is NPOV in Scientology-related pages. I'd like to emphasize that I have honestly declared my affiliation and I do my best to abide by Wikipedia policy. (I honestly felt that the page was contradicting Wiki Policy) Having said that, I can defer to the maintenance of this page, but I do not agree that both sides are "reported fairly." I will continue my research as a Wikipedian and propose edits in order to balance the perspective of this page because it is teeming with challenged NPOV and degree of questionable sources. I also question the reliability of the ratings on this page - these ratings may come from individuals who have a biased agenda.NestleNW911 (talk) 20:21, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Just for the interest of the parties keeping tabs on this, NestleNW911, the editor who proposed the deletion has been topic banned for one year, "and his credibility is questionable" to quote NestleNW911's line of reasoning.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:09, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --108.232.106.150 (talk) 22:27, 28 January 2013 (UTC) ... It is in the public interest that this information be published. The reports on the Church of Scientology "Hole" are backed up by a couple of dozen first-hand eye-witness accounts. Do not let Wikipedia content be dictated by an abusive cult dictator, please. Michael A. Hobson Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because... (your reason here) --72.91.107.82 (talk) 03:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC) I was there. The Hole is real and there has been extensive media coverage of this very subject despite many threats of legal action by the church of Scientology. None of those threats have materialized into legal action where there would be a chance for all the evidence to be disclosed in a court of law under oath. The media coverage itself is evidence enough that this is a topic of public interest. Mike Rinder Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because...the former Scientology executives who have blown the whistle on the existence and abuse in The Hole were known as leaders within the Scientology community worldwide. In San Antonio Texas on Thursday, February 9th 2012 Debbie Cook former head of Flag, the world's largest Scientology delivery organization testified under oath not only of the existence of The Hole but testified in detail the abuse she witnessed and endured personally. The last people in the world that veteran Scientologists like myself would ever have expected to see in global news headlines would have been Debbie Cook, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder blowing the whistle on crimes within the church and yet there they were. These three specifically were known by name and face throughout the Scientology community worldwide respected for their leadership roles. To delete this entry would be to contribute to the abuse that good people are enduring right this minute in that hell hole because it's been so easy for it to be hidden behind the razor fences that surround it. Gayle Smith — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.106.158.98 (talk) 03:38, 29 January 2013 (UTC) Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because... (your reason here)evidence exists in the form of affidavids from people who have been forcibly placed in 'the hole' as well as anecdoital evidence from numerous people that the hole exists and there are people imprisoned against their will within it. Photos also exist of the hole.--Michael IFA (talk) 04:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC) Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedily deleted because... it is established fact by sworn testimony as stated in the article the Hole exists, or clearly existed through recent times. It is also fact many former high ranking executives are still being held in this compound by order of David Miscavige. The compound is known as Gold or Int (International) Base. The Hole as the photo clearly shows are two double wide trailers converted first to offices, then to a jail. What has gone on there is now a matter of sworn court testimony, re: Debbie Cook. The entire compound is surrounded by razor wire and/or security fencing. RS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.238.219.230 (talk) 05:09, 29 January 2013 (UTC) Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be deleted at all because: 1) A Google search for 'The Scientology Hole' generates "About 2,160,000 results (0.36 seconds)" on 29th January 2013, indicating significant interest in this subject. 2) The Hole (Scientology) is referred to in newspapers widely: The Daily Mail PUBLISHED: 16:24, 3 July 2012 | UPDATED: 08:50, 4 July 2012 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2168225/Tom-Cruise-Katie-Holmes-divorce-Inside-Scientologys-Sea-Org-Suri-faced-joining.html) The Sun Published: 17th February 2012 (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4135513/Scientologists-waterboarded-and-beat-me-says-former-church-official.html) Daily Express Tuesday July 3,2012 (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/330457/Scientology-A-cult-in-crisis) The Independent Tuesday 08 February 2011 (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/sect-scandal-scientologists-outraged-by-defectors-claims-2207428.html?origin=internalSearch San Antonio Express News/My San Antonio Wednesday, April 25, 2012 (http://www.mysanantonio.com/default/article/Church-of-Scientology-drops-Bexar-suit-against-3510603.php) New York Times Published: January 17, 2013 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/books/review/going-clear-lawrence-wrights-book-on-scientology.html?pagewanted=all) International Business Times July 04 2012 10:19 AM (http://www.ibtimes.com/mystery-shelly-miscavige-wife-scientology-leader-and-matchmaker-tom-cruise-and-katie-holmes-missing) The Village Voice Thu., Aug. 2 2012 (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/08/scientology_concentration_camp_the_hole.php) Tampa Bay Times In Print: Sunday, January 13, 2013 (http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/article1270047.ece) The New York Daily News July 2, 2012 (http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/church-scientology-inspector-general-marty-rathbun-explains-escaped-destructive-cult-katie-holmes-article-1.1106735) Richard Kaminski (talk) 09:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because... (your reason here) --69.197.221.160 (talk) 05:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC) It is 100% truth. And scientology wants to keep their lies going to extort money from people. Contested Deletion[edit]Testimony with regards to the hole has been recorded under oath during the trial of Debbie Cook. It's existence is well documented and corroborated. Whether it exists now or has been disbanded after such public attention is irrelevant to the historical value of the information. Scientology's controversial nature is under heavy scrutiny by the media and public at large. That coupled with the informative nature of wikipedia should be enough to allow the survival of this page. Scientology representatives continuously claim that the sources quoted in articles are unreliable. The do this by creating some kind of mass, unsubstantiated conspiracy against the church. As is the case with most conspiracy theories it lacks a simple ingredient: motive. The existence of this information is important to people who are seeking to research Scientology and the nature of the abuses that are occurring within the church. It would be against the ideals and goals of wikipedia to stomp out a page such as this, especially at the behest of a large corporation such as Scientology. I recommend that this page remain up as it is and will remain a valuable research to people with questions about Scientology. I sincerely hope that Wikipedia does not bow to the wishes of a criminal organization. It would be in Wikipedia's interest to refer to the lawsuits against the organization of Scientology in the country of France (seeing as Wikipedia is a global organization). Sincerely, Derek Bloch Dbloch7986 (talk) 05:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC) Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because... (your reason here) --74.96.148.253 (talk) 05:31, 30 January 2013 (UTC) Scientology who has been banned from making changes on Wikipedia is trying to delete this page. Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because... (your reason here) --66.131.109.244 (talk) 05:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC) This is NOT an attack page, it is a page that provides accurate information to help others avoid such abuses. Please do NOT delete. Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --Deanblair06 (talk) 06:00, 30 January 2013 (UTC) This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --Deanblair06 (talk) 06:00, 30 January 2013 (UTC)There are literally scores of people who were in the hole and have talked about it. One of the more well known was Debbie Cook. She had been the Captain of the Flag Land Base in Clearwater Florida when she was called by David Miscavige to California where she personally was placed in the hole and testified to such in court. There is also Mike Rinder who was formerly the spokesperson for Scientology until he was placed in the hole. Really, there are many who were forced into the hole and have since left Scientology and have testified about it. Please do not take the current leaders word or the word of one of his side kicks. Of course he doesn't want anyone to know and will deny it as they have for years but people who have been in the hole have written about it and books have been authored about it as well. The hole does exist. Debbie Cooks testimony can be viewed by going to Tony Ortega's blog where he has video of it filmed in the court room. http://tonyortega.org/ Mark Headley wrote a book and discusses it there. Blown for Good by Marc Headley. Marty Rathbun was a former 2nd in command and has discussed it at length on his blog "Moving on up a Little Higher". He was witness to a hundred others who experienced the hole as was Mike Rinder. Deanblair06 (talk) 06:00, 30 January 2013 (UTC) Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedily deleted because.. Short answer: Without truth you have nothing, Long answer: There are worse places in $cientology than the hole, like the Lady Washington Gold mine in Tolumene CA... That mine was once owned by a big banking family, and used indian slaves, who would be paid by the weight of gold they scraped out of the rock with the golds balance with raisens on the balance.. When they could not work they were tossed down and unused mineshaft.. If you cant deal with the heat, I'll web the page. Regards Arnie Lerma Lermanet.com Exposing the CON — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.170.247.179 (talk) 06:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC) Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedily deleted because... It is all true and has been collobrated by many people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.162.211.35 (talk) 22:09, 30 January 2013 (UTC) Contested deletion[edit]This page should not be speedily deleted because... It refers to an actual place that has been linked to systematic and widespread human rights abuses. Many people have testified as to its existence including in a court of law, under penalty of perjury. The world needs to knows about this place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.74.22 (talk) 20:37, 31 January 2013 (UTC) Contested deletion: all people have a right to there opinions[edit]This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --50.53.155.184 (talk) 07:39, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
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Regrettably there seems to be some opposition to this article appearing in the Did You Know? section on the Main Page. Comments are invited at Template:Did you know nominations/The Hole (Scientology). Prioryman (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
There is a suggestion that the topic of human trafficking be discussed and that perhaps the classification may not be justified strongly enough to include Scientology's "Hole" in that classification. There is an overwhelming amount of documentary evidence both in criminal case law and civil case law covering Scientology's human trafficking however the most recent Federal investigations (which are still pending nation-wide indictments) are well covered:
Point being that there is no question whether or not Scientology commits human trafficking, it has been established previously in crimnial and civil cases, one of the most notable being in Madrid where 69 people were indicted for numerous charges including human trafficking. Enough documented evidence exists to warrant this article's classification as including human trafficking; we want articles to be as accurate, non-biased, and as inclusive as reasonable, so the classification is warranted. Damotclese (talk) 21:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
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Reviewer: PrairieKid (talk · contribs) 02:34, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I will do this review. It seems interesting. PrairieKid (talk) 02:34, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
See below.
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Reviewer: Darkness Shines (talk · contribs) 20:13, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
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1. Well-written: | ||
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | ||
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | ||
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | ||
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | This is a blog, how is it RS? And it is being used for information on a BLP was well. Would these two[2][3] be better?.
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2c. it contains no original research. | ||
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | ||
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | ||
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | ||
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | ||
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | ||
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | ||
7. Overall assessment. | Easiest GA review ever, well written, sourced and given the subject matter neutral, excellent job. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC) |
Can someone provide some source on the identification of this building? The framing of the areial photo here suggests it is the large, warehouse-like building composed of two intersecting squarish forms. However, all the descriptions indicate it is a double-wide trailer home, or multiple such trailer homes connected, which clearly could not be this large building. It seems to me the smaller buildings in front of the one pictured more closely fit the description. Walkersam (talk) 17:59, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
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Seriously? Those buildings don't bear the slightest resemblance to "two double-wide trailers linked together". Either the source for the claim that that is the hole or the source for the claim that the hole is two double-wide trailers is obviously wrong.
Also, the claim that "The executives confined at the Hole are reported to have numbered up to 100 of the most senior figures in Scientology's management" is inconsistent with the claim about two double-wide trailers. The largest double-wide trailers that are about as long as they are wide are 32 by 40 feet. that allows each person six feet by four feet, assuming that there are no bathrooms, kitchens, closets, etc. -- just beds covering every inch of the interior. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 02:29, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
References
I know we're not looking for this anymore, but I thought I'd note it here anyway. I just encountered it in a diagram of the entire Gold Base printed inside the front and back covers of the 2009 book Blown for Good. Building #25 is annotated with WDC, CMOI, Exec Strata, "SP Hole"
. (WDC = Watchdog Committee and CMOI = Commodore's Messenger Organization International.) ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 07:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)