Former good article nomineeTurkish War of Independence was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 7, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed

Civil war

Firstly you need to know demographic situation in anatolia 1918 Muslim peoples are a part of Ottoman people called "reay-a"and they forced to go wars for country.But christians are dont need to go wars.İn the end of the Ottoman empire Wars was every year. Muslim males are crushed in the wars.İn the War of indenpence females and child are fighted for their country. Christian peoples ; Pontus Greeks.They are not ethnically Greek and they dont speak a dialect of Greek.They are the parts of old anatolian nations(hitits,Frigans etc)They speak their own language "rumcha" "Rum" means anotolia in their language.They are real owners of Byzantium Empire.They lives in the Turkeys Black sea side. Armenians, Armenians are really looking like Turks.Byzantium was did pressure on them because Their gregorian.And their never revolted aganist Ottoman Empire.Ottomans are trusted them more than Turks.They said them "Millet-i sadık-a" means faithfull nation.All palace members are Armenian. Jews. Ottoman jews are people what escaped from Spanish Inquisition.They called "serenad".Turkish 2012 Eurovision singer "Can Bonomo" is seranad too. When the and of 1.World War.Ottoman army layed down arms.There is no armed force in anatolia to cover civilians against others.Justin McCarthy says, among the years of 1821 - 1922 %,5 million muslim was forced to migration and more 5 million muslim was killed.McCarthy 1995, 335-340.

Day of 14/15 May 1919 when the Smyrna's occupation by Greek forces,Greeks killed a part of cities Turkish people. On this genocide Rum soldiers are walking in the city.Shaw,Stanford J. & Shaw, Ezel Kural (2002), History of the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey, Volume 2, Cambridge University Press, pg. 342 Henry Ford says, Greek occupied area İzmir to Konya Greek soldiers are raping Turkish womans very frequently.Ford, Henry. Dearborn Independent Magazine January 1927-May 1927, Dearborn Publishing Company, pg. 24

İn 1929 George Seldes says,Greeks killing are so much bigger than Turks do. Seldes, George. You Can't Print That! the Truth Behind the News 1918 to 1928 (1929), Kessinger Publishing, pg. 395

İn French occupied terrority Armenians did genocide aganist Turks.Gary D. Solish (2010) The Law of Armed Conflict: International Humanitarian Law in War, ISBN 9780521870887 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.166.177.239 (talk • contribs) 13:59, 5 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are you kidding? Here is wikipedia, we need to be neutral. The fact there are some Kemalist books that mention that the Greeks and the Armenians killings are bigger than Turks do does not prove anything. Of course there are some cases that they killed or raped civilians. But this is not compared with the massacre that Mustafa Kemal and his army did. Smyrna was not occupated, it was liberated by the Greeks (in the city the Greeks were more than the Turks that era). Today the half of the Greeks say that they have at least one ancestor from the Asia Minor or Pontus. Entire nations killed or forced to live their homeland. We are talking about genocides. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.9.193 (talk) 11:07, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence on "Smyrna was not occupated, it was liberated by the Greeks (in the city the Greeks were more than the Turks that era)". In fact, this is a completely false claim as 1914 Ottoman Population resources suggest that the Muslim population is the almost 5 times the Greek population. You can check the link I will add below. You start your claim with we should be neutral and than continue by using a %100 biased language and wikipedia is not the correct place for that.

Furthermore, you are claiming that half of the Greeks have at least one ancestor from Asia Minor to support your idea which is what proves me that you are not evem aware of the population change agreement made in 1923 between Greece and Turkey. So today the majority of the people living in western Turkey have ancestors from what today is Greece. In fact, the founder of the Republic of Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is from Thessaloniki.

Finally what I want to point out is that instead of using an accusing language everybody should only comment in the light of certain facts. Vadersfort (talk) 11:19, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Changes

WP:FORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I think that we must add to the article the dark side of this war. Because it seems like it is presented only by the Turkish side. It was not just a revoloution against the sultan and the allied powers. It was also a genocide. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk assasinated the whole peoples of foreign nations that lived in the area (except Kurds). Millions of civilians: Greeks, Armenians, Pontic Greeks and Assyrians were killed. Those those who survived were forced to abandon their homes. Maybe we need to add also these side of the war at the begining of the article.
Also I think that the translation of the Turkish name is War of Salvation. Using a word like independence is wrong, because the people that the Turkish murdered and push out of the nowadays Turkey were not invaders but the natives of that region.
Also I think that Soviet Union did not supported Turkey. It just sold weapons because of the profit. How could an atheist communist state support an ultranationalist muslim leader? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.21.180 (talk) 17:14, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

i dont think trustable knowledge source, Wikipedia, should be letting change of articles with the resources stating ' i think, i also thought ' but one should show some references. Turkish War of independence has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing of Armenians. actually there is no such thing as ethnic cleansing of Armenians. please, the responsible authorities of Wikipedia, fix this mistake and have the last editor of this article get the proper response because of this subjective and false editing Arslankoraytr (talk) 08:33, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How come it is an ethnic cleansing campaign when you are only fighting against occupation of the great powers of the world? Independence and ethnic cleansing? Was the American Revolution ethnic cleansing? Was fighting against Hitler in WW2 ethnic cleansing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cokonatliprens (talk • contribs) 09:39, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kars, Ardahan and Batum were given to Russia as war compensation according to the Berlin agreement, which was re-arranged with the intervention of western states and the Ayastefanos signed after the Ottoman-Russian war of 1877-1888. With the failure of the 1915 Sarıkamış Operation in the First World War, the Russians advanced in 1916 and occupied the Eastern Anatolia and Eastern Black Sea Regions, including Erzincan. Thus, apart from Kars,Ardahan ve Batum, most of Eastern Anatolia was subjected to Russian occupation. However, the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 prevented the Russians from further advancing. The effects of the Bolshevik revolution extended to the Russian Caucasian Army and even to Erzincan; The Bolsheviks had to sign the Erzincan Treaty with the Ottoman State on December 18, 1917, in the face of the dissolved Russian armies. While the Russian armies withdrew, they confronted the Armenian gangs that they had armed under hand and wanted to revive the ideal of "Great Armenia" and the Turks who were not defenseless. Therefore, in Eastern Anatolia and (in Batum, Kars and Ardahan), a great Turkish massacre was started. Mass cemeteries are still on exhibited in these cities. The massacres committed by the Armenians had reached such a terrible proportions; In the face of this increasing savagery, the Turkish Army organized a military operation on February 12, 1918 to put an end to this savagery and massacre. (Kantarcı, 2005 ; Turan, 2018 and Dayı, 2004). The researchers clearly implifies that there was no any ethnic cleansing of Armenians. Thus, this statement should be removed from the article. The history cannot be rewritten according to government's benefit. If you are interest in about Turkish mass cemeteries by Armenian gangs, you can visit following web sites:

https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/pg/foto-galeri/bilimsel-kazilarla-ermeni-cetelerinin-katliamlari https://www.ankaramasasi.com/haber/732884/bilimsel-kazilarla-ermeni-cetelerinin-katliamlari

References 1) KANTARCI, Ş. (2005) Kars' ta Türklere Yönelik Ermeni Katliamı: Kalo/Derecik Köyü Toplu Mezar Kazısı The Armenian Atrocities to the Turks in Kars: The Mass Grave Excavation of Kalo/Derecik Village. 2) Turan, F. A. (2018) TOPLUMSAL HAFIZADA ANADOLU’DAN HOCALI’YA ERMENİ MEZALİMİ. 3) DAYI, E. (2004) ELVİYE-İ SELASE/ÜÇ SANCAK (KARS, ARDAHAN VE BATUM)'DA ERMENİLERİN TÜRKLERE YAPTIKLARI MEZALİM. Atatürk Üniversitesi Türkiyat Araştırmaları Enstitüsü Dergisi, 11(23). — Preceding unsigned comment added by HitPoint13ad (talk • contribs) 11:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What's your problem with this edit?

Gökhan If you revert an edit, it is expected to explain why: are the sources cited not reliable? Is there some other issue?[1] It is not acceptable to revert without an explanation unless you claim it is WP:VANDALISM. (t · c) buidhe 19:05, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I won't discuss my political views on this. But the sources you cited are biased or opinionated sources. Also, the content you added to the article appears to be almost entirely devoted to propaganda. It is against the rule of NPOV. Therefore I reverted your edits. --Gökhan (talk) 19:46, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: your edits contain huge POV, removal of "occupied lands", implying it is not, and placing "ethnic cleansing" campaign against native Christian minorities, which is nonsensical, implying that was the goal. Ethnic cleansing is not a cause, it is a result, probably referring to Population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Beshogur (talk) 20:46, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  1. No one militarily occupied the "lands of Turkey" before the existence of Republic of Turkey, not proclaimed until 1923.
  2. Most Orthodox Christians were expelled from Turkey before the so-called population exchange was agreed upon, during the period of active fighting. Many scholarly sources say that ridding Anatolia of non-Muslim minorities was indeed a goal of the Kemalist campaign. (t · c) buidhe 21:30, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: sure, check out Occupation of Smyrna and Occupation of Constantinople. There is indeed an occupation. Also keep in mind, not only Ottoman Empire, the Ankara government was also called "Turkey" in the Treaty of Laussane. Beshogur (talk) 21:35, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's anachronistic to call it an "occupation of Turkey" when Turkey didn't exist yet, although these areas have been part of Turkey since 1923. The Lausanne treaty was in 1923 also and the nationalist government did not have internationally recognized territory while the war was being fought. (t · c) buidhe 21:58, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: it is not anachronistic. Not sure why you're thinking so. Beshogur (talk) 22:02, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to fail to understand what "anachronistic" means (applying present-day borders to a conflict that occurred prior to these borders being established) as well as the definition of military occupation: you can't occupy a country that doesn't exist yet and lacks internationally recognized borders. (t · c) buidhe 22:38, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: US state department doesn't say so: After the war, Greece took part in the Allied occupation of Turkey. Are they also Turkish nationalist? Who says Turkey didn't exist back then? Told you Turkey applied both to the Ottoman Empire and the Ankara government. This is the last time I am saying this. Also Treaty of Sevres from 1920: Turkey appears 307 times. And there was no "internationally recognized territories" back then because there was no UN. Beshogur (talk) 23:34, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's the problem isn't it? The territory "occupied" by Greece was for the most part what was granted to Greece by Sevres. It was not internationally recognized as part of "Turkey" until 1923. (BTW, there *was* international diplomatic recognition of countries and their territories prior to UN:[2]). Thus, the claim that this is "Turkish" rather than "Greek" territory at the time the war was fought is POV. And no, US Department of State is not a reliable source for historical topics, especially when many reliable, scholarly sources exist. (t · c) buidhe 00:06, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Turkey exited for the Allied Powers also before 1923, (as seen in the Treaty of Sevres Document), just the final demarcation of the borders was not negotiated through before 1923.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:16, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: huh, it's Turkish territory. What's POV here? It's your views that's POV, see the document of Treaty of Sevres. What else do you need for "international recognition". Also still don't believe you say US department source isn't RS while everyone uses CIA world factbook, plus this is basically "recognition". It is also remarkable that "Turkish territory" appears 17 times in Sevres, and the treaty unironically uses "ocuppation" for the allied occupation. Beshogur (talk) 00:24, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, your sources also claim this was not a war against the allied powers, what else can I say. Probably the Franco-Turkish and the Greco-Turkish wars were myths? Beshogur (talk) 00:35, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I never cited the CIA world factbook and wouldn't consider it a reliable source for this type of information. As PC states, "Turkey"'s borders were not settled until 1923, so for neutrality we should use language that does not assume the validity of particular claims to territory, such as "Anatolia". (t · c) buidhe 00:41, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also Vahagn Avedian claims that The ‘War of Independence’ was not against the occupying Allies – a myth invented by Kemalists. Same person says on a Swedish tv: Nagorno karabax har tillhört armenian i arhundrade utom diktatorn stalins tid., that "Nagorno karabakh has belonged to the Armenian for centuries except the time of dictator Stalin". [3] Doesn't look like a neutral source either. Also how it isn't neutral to refert to these areas as occupied, while almost everyone in the academics uses that. Seriously. Beshogur (talk) 00:35, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is a misrepresentation of the source. Perhaps you didn't read it? He does not say that Turkish national movement did not fight with French troops, he says that their real quarrel was not with the French but with the Armenians seeking to regain their properties and move back home. Kieser says much the same thing. Furthermore, I don't see how Avedian's opinion on Karabakh conflict has any relevance to this discussion or undercuts the reliability of his published academic work. This paper has been cited more than thirty times according to Google Scholar.[4] (t · c) buidhe 21:24, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are you trying to claim that the events described in Greek genocide or Armenian Genocide#Turkish war of independence never happened at all? Or is the claim that they had nothing to do with the Turkish war effort? (t · c) buidhe 01:57, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Buidhe, first off, thank you very much for your excellently sourced edits across various articles - they are a pleasure to read through and you are truly giving me a lot of ideas for my never-ending reading list! Now, nothing that I would rush to edit immediately, but the first sentence here does pose a number of questions for me. There are, theoretically speaking, two distinct possibilities about how to frame ethnic cleansing and the Turkish War of Independence. 1) The Turkish War of Independence was a campaign of ethnic cleansing against minorities as well as a struggle against Allied forces. 2) In conjunction to the Turkish War of Independence, which was a struggle against Allied forces, there was a campaign of ethnic cleansing. I think this is a subtle but absolutely crucial distinction to make. If we choose our definition to be (2), that would mean that the ethnic cleansing would not be a primary focus here, being mainly covered in the respective genocide articles; ethnic cleansing would not feature in the first sentence, but would of course feature in the later paragraphs of the lead.

Now, taking a closer look into the references you've added to support the first sentence, I'm inclined to think that there is no evidence for a broader support for definition (1) than definition (2). This is of course based on the out-of-context quotes that you've provided there, but do bear with me. Out of these quotes, only Avedian and Kevorkian unequivocally support the war of independence = ethnic cleansing campaign statement in definition (1) and currently found in the lead. Kieser actually supports definition (2) better than (1), as he talks about ethnic cleansing carried out during the War of Independence, implying that these are conceptually two separate entities. Insofar as I can see, all the other quotes discuss the Kemalist campaign leading to total ethnic cleansing and the completed Turkification of Anatolia, but they do not necessarily support the very particular equivalence in definition (1), they are equally compatible statements with definition (2).

This begs the question of the bigger picture. Avedian and Kevorkian are both established scholars in the genocide studies field, and with their expertise, it is not surprising that they would frame the Turkish War of Independence within that framework. This does not mean that scholars with different subfields of expertise in Ottoman/Turkish history have the same definition of the War of Independence. For us to unequivocally support this interpretation, I think that there must be a clear academic consensus in support of definition (1), including in scholars who do not necessarily have such backgrounds. Surely, the definition of the War of Independence must be something we can glean from more established, mainstream histories of Turkey. Now, when I pick up my copy of the Cambridge History of Turkey and look at the chapter on the independence efforts, I cannot see any support for definition (1) that we currently have in the article. The chapter clearly frames this as a collective struggle against occupying forces in Ottoman territory or Misak-ı Millî (yes, calling it occupied parts of Turkey is anachronistic, but the term occupation is very well-established in literature so your opposition to it is slightly baffling), notwithstanding its discussion of the ethnic cleansing mindset in the background (e.g. the prevention of the return of Armenian deportees being one of the goals of the mobilisation). I am also slightly concerned about possible cherry-picking, as the search terms here indicate a purposeful search for sources that juxtapose the War of Independence and ethnic cleansing. This is sure to produce a whole host of results but of course not necessarily a balanced overview of the historiography.

My preference at the moment would be to go for definition (2) and emphasise the ethnic cleansing aspect otherwise in the lead, given that this is more compatible with the more established, mainstream histories of Turkey.

--GGT (talk) 23:37, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Gerwarth and Erez Manela, two top-notch historians of the First World War period and most certainly not scholars working in the genocide field, have also come out to say, "What the Young Turks and nationalist historians in Turkey to this day refer to as the “War of Liberation” (İstiklâl Harbi, 1919– 1923) was in essence a form of violent nation-state formation that combined mass killing, expulsion, and suppression and that represented a continuation of wartime ethnic unmixing and exclusion of Ottoman Greeks and Armenians from Anatolia" (see "The Great War as Global War" in Beyond 1917: The United States and the Global Legacies of the Great War (Oxford, 2017), p. 205). So this is no longer really a fringe opinion, but something that mainstream historians are increasingly coming to recognize as well. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 00:29, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that some sources use the phrase "Turkish war of independence" for the purely military campaign, thus excluding other aspects, and therefore there are more sources that would support a weaker formulation such as (2). But, most sources that discuss both aspects at all acknowledge the high degree of overlap between military campaigns and atrocities against civilians based on ethnicity, for example massacres and forced expulsions after a place was captured by the other army. Thus there is a closer relationship than World War I and the Armenian Genocide (which mostly took place far from the front lines). Gingeras' book discusses both military offensives and atrocities simultaneously.
(In your example I use search term to find the relevant passage in the book. In his more recent book (2018) Kieser states, "from spring 1919, Kemal Pasha resumed, with ex-CUP forces, domestic war against Greek and Armenian rivals", which seems closer to (1)).
I don't oppose the term occupied Ottoman territory as there's no question that Allies occupied parts of the Ottoman Empire after the armistice. (t · c) buidhe 00:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you both for the very valuable input and clarifications. I understand that this is an issue where the scholarship is in flux, and Kieser's more recent book as well as Gerwarth and Manela are excellent examples of that. My concern here is that by adopting the current definition, we seem to be potentially placing ourselves ahead of the scholarship curve, with the anticipation that this is the definition that the field will be converging upon (a very fair one, but still an anticipation). I am not comfortable in doing that given our role as an encyclopaedia. Surely, until the simple equivalence of the "War of Independence = ethnic cleansing campaign" is the definitive definition in the state-of-the-art mainstream works, we ought to be opting for a more conservative definition, perhaps (2), or some other formulation. --GGT (talk) 00:56, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This was posted at WP:RS/N and I share concerns about the weight issues and support editors here working towards a consensus. The arguments of scholars do carry weight and should be shown fair consideration in the article text but there should not be edit warring while the discussion is open. It's clear that there is no consensus yet for these changes so I am restoring the pre-edit warring version of the article.Spudlace (talk) 03:59, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There's no edit warring. (t · c) buidhe 04:02, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spudlace Could you also link to the discussion at RS/N? I checked there quickly, but didn't see any recent discussion. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:46, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Great, found the discussion myself Here the link to it. Then also the Turkish War for Independence defined the outcome of the Armenian Genocide and led to the population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Scholar consensus is for Buidhe, if the ethnic cleansing is mentioned in the first paragraph of the second might be worth a discussion but not the removal of a lot of very well sourced content.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 08:56, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The ethnic cleansing is fairly sourced and it is sure worth to be mentioned in the first phrase as Buidhe did. The presentation of the sources could be made better, so it doesn't seem it is just the POV of one source but actually of several scholars in the field.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 09:13, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You can't just remove well sourced content from an article. You can maybe move it to an other place in the article (this time probably the lead) and discuss about why that place is more accurate, but a removal without a discussion is not a solution.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 10:46, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have adapted the lead a bit and there are now several renown scholars in the field which were often removed against the encyclopedia Britannica, Microsoft! encarta and History channel which were accepted by all editors so far. As to me, scholars should prevail over the other sources. The opposing party is invited to bring up sources as well.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:16, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea what went on here in the meantime, no idea why people would talk about edit warring. Buidhe, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the concerns I expressed in my previous reply. I am still concerned that we are getting ahead of the scholarship curve here. --GGT (talk) 21:41, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I can follow Srnec. The terminology can and should be treated elsewhere. The first few phrases should define the subject of the article.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:58, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosguill: another issue with this "occupation" thing similar to the NK conflict. Buidhe claims the name Turkey is anachronistic and these are not "occupied territories". However I showed him various examples of Turkey being used in treaties before founding of the republic. Another example of Treaty of Mudros dating 1918, finishing the WW1 clearly uses: The Armistice Convention with Turkey. What's your opinion on this? Thanks in advance. Beshogur (talk) 19:46, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Beshogur, sorry, I'm swamped this weekend and can't commit to reading through the above discussion. signed, Rosguill talk 19:56, 4 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: what do you think about armistice of Mudros saying Turkey instead of the Ottoman empire? Beshogur (talk) 10:59, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: Most post 1900 wars have had ethnic cleansing campaigns, it's just a side effect of modern wars. This is nothing unique with the Turkish war of Independence although it was more significant in this instance, but to deem the war itself an "ethnic cleansing campaign" is wrong. 1.5 million Greeks still lived in Turkey after the war ended, that is until Venizelos offered to exchange Greek-Turkish populations in their countries. Also if we use the logic that Turkey did not exist (de jure) until 1923 we can say the same about the United States which did not have de jure independence until 1783, after the "American" Revolution already ended. After all the Balkan wars also featured massive ethnic cleansing campaigns where millions of Turks and Muslims were forced out of the Balkan Christian countries, yet I don't see that in the first sentence. Borab00 (talk) 00:53, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is untrue, only about 200,000 Greeks were displaced by the population exchange since the rest have already been expelled. After all the Balkan wars also featured massive ethnic cleansing campaigns where millions of Turks and Muslims were forced out This should be taken up at Talk:Balkan Wars but the reality is that during Balkan wars all sides committed serious atrocities and civilians between all ethnic groups suffered from ethnic cleansing to a similar extent. (t · c) buidhe 01:04, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: according to the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey, it involved more than 1 million greeks. My point was not that I had an intent to label the Balkan wars itself as an "ethnic cleansing campaigns" but rather to show that literally 90% of wars post 1900 are "ethnic cleansing campaigns" according to your definition. The key is that ethnic cleansing is rather a side component of these wars and should be considered a separate entity as it has always been (also there is no record of Christian Balkan peoples being ethnically cleansed on a mass scale during the Balkan Wars yet there is here for turks and muslims: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_during_Ottoman_contraction). I understand that your hatred of Turks makes you so you are eager to label a war as "ethnic cleansing campaigns" (three times!!!) in the heading of the article yet make no mention of Greek ethnic cleansing campaigns of Turks which were at a similar scale (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_during_the_Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%9322)). Rather a better suggestion would be to actually talk about the DETAILS of the "massive ethnic cleansing campaign" that supposedly only the Turks did in the main article text itself. Borab00 (talk) 01:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of all of this in the first place, there is no evidence for a centrally organized ethnic cleansing campaign done by the Kemalist government in the first place, as the massacres were done by rogue soldiers and officers in the military (same thing can be said as with the Greek military, rogue soldiers massacring Turks during the initial invasion, even though there was later a scorched earth campaign during the Greek retreat). Ataturk mentioned specifically during the Great fire of Smyrna that his intentions were not to massacre the Greek or Armenian populations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_great_fire_of_Smyrna#Mustafa_Kemal's_telegram) Borab00 (talk) 02:03, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that further criticism should be brought forward with RS and not through unreferenced arguments and Wikipedia.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Content missing from body?

Largely relating to the above, the article itself doesn't appear to detail the ethnic cleansing allegations, or not obviously. "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" both appear in the lead but nowehere in the main body of the article. Equally, the infobox claims 264,000 Greek civilians were killed and 60,000–250,000 Armenian civilians killed, there's no mention of these in the article body. Obviously these are things that need to appear in the article, so hoping someone with access to references can add something appropriate. FDW777 (talk) 10:52, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I guess the article is planned to be reworked a bit by buidhe. I also saw that there are large unsourced sections that need a better presentation.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:16, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

i dont think trustable knowledge source, Wikipedia, should be letting change of articles with the resources stating ' i think, i also thought ' but one should show some references. Turkish War of independence has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing of Armenians. actually there is no such thing as ethnic cleansing of Armenians. please, the responsible authorities of Wikipedia, fix this mistake and have the last editor of this article get the proper response because of this subjective and false editing. if 'I think' is a proper statement to change the articles. please remove that insult from the article, because i think and see that no such thing as ethnic cleansing happened. because there is no scientific proof for that. Arslankoraytr (talk) 08:37, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So some angry Armenian edited this part of the Wikipedia stating the genocides and literally plainly falsely blaming a nations victory over world nations assault and an invasion, I clearly can say this , I will stop my funds for the Wikipedia . Nekarman (talk) 07:21, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus has been made

User:SunDawn I understand the feel for the need of consensus, but I'm afraid the consensus has already been made on the Armenian Genocide Article already on the dates (1915-1917) for the genocide. I don't understand what else needs consensus. Borab00 (talk) 03:56, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Borab00: For starters, there can be different local consensuses at different locations. Second, the Christian minorities that this appears to be referring to would not just be Armenians, but also Greeks and Syriacs. There seem to have been a sources that contained in the one very long reference list that was deleted in your edit that make explicit comments about these sorts of things, including comments on ethnic cleansing and genocide as well as the list of groups involved. To delete the number of sources there in favor of using a single source with a different POV doesn't seem warranted. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:04, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Could you refer me to the consensus mentioned? Based on your addition, I have the following problems: 1) Massacres by Christians is given undue WP:WEIGHT as your sentence implies that Christian groups do it in equal measure, which I disagree. 2) You remove "elimination of native Christian population" as a goal by Turkish nationalist movement, which again, require another consensus. 3) That this campaigns (which one?) resulted in creation of Turkey. I have to also point out that consensus is not global, and consensus on other page may not be consensus on other page. SunDawn (talk) 04:12, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article provides a list of massacres perpetuated by both sides. No side committed significantly more atrocities than the other. Ataturk's telegram for one describes the intention to protect the native Christians, and there is no evidence that the central government's intention was to do otherwise. I know this is hard to understand but sometimes sources can often contain baseless claims such as these ones. There is no evidence of the Turkish Nationalist Movement having centrally organized or intended for a genocide or ethnic cleansing. After all, I can't just use the notoriously pro-Turkish scholar Justin McCarthy's claims, many of which are baseless... Borab00 (talk) 04:23, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's fair to say that there is no evidence of a Greek genocide or organized ethnic cleansing during the relevant time period here. There are plenty of sources in the current article that say so and it appears (I'm not an expert in this field, so I will defer to others who regularly edit this page) that there is a scholarly consensus that such events occurred. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the article you gave, it is clear that the perpetrators are Turkish armies/gangs and Greek armies. Also Great fire of Smyrna have 100,000+ deaths, eclipsing most of the massacre on this list. Thus, it is undue WP:WEIGHT to blame the Christians and the Muslims as perpetrators for these massacres are either Turkish or Greek. I propose instead of using Christians/Muslims, we use Greeks/Turkish nationalists instead? SunDawn (talk) 04:48, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
After reading the arguments from buidhe (talk · contribs) I am convinced that any war crimes committed by Greece is outside the scope of this article and should not be included. SunDawn (talk) 11:56, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Buidhe: You or someone else can expand the information if you want but if not it needs to be removed.--Visnelma (talk) 09:03, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It's just as easy for you to fix the identified issue yourself than removing content that we already got consensus to include in the lead. WP:SOFIXIT already. (t · c) buidhe 09:08, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: Hi, I added information about ethnic cleansing that took place during TWoI in Turkish Wikipedia with sources and it was instantly reverted. I am planning to expand the information about terminology and atroticies on this article which it lacks. Maybe this can raise some awareness. I would like to colloborate with you if necessary.--Visnelma (talk) 09:23, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: I have added historiography part what do you think?--Visnelma (talk) 13:33, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Visnelma, Thanks! Looks like a good start. (t · c) buidhe 16:54, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Possible planned vandalism by Turkish far right groups

On Eksi Sozluk, basically a turkish version of 4chan, this article is a current point of discussion, and there is talk about changing it by sheer number of edits, reporting it to the government, and even someone calling for help of government controlled bots.

https://eksisozluk.com/turkish-war-of-independence-wikipedia-maddesi--6904650

What should we do? Funkistan (talk) 08:27, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Above is categorically not true, so why make a statement? eksisozluk is a forum and all kinds of folks blog there. Other motives?Murat (talk) 17:12, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's semi-protected for now, if that's not enough admins can up it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:37, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine attempts at whitewashing by four different editors despite the semi-protection. Something needs to be done about this. FDW777 (talk) 08:44, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, i suggest fastly discussing this definition sentence in question. I am trying to assume good faith but adding such misinformation can also be a vandalist act. In the link you share, people are discussing what should be done against such misinformation, it's not fair to call it planned vandalism, and i do not think there is a need to worry. What wikipedians need to worry most is the ensuring neutral point of view.--Basak (talk) 08:45, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is the definition of WP:MEAT and WP:Canvassing#Off-wiki canvassing, which is definitely not allowed. (t · c) buidhe 08:49, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The lead has been modified after a concencus. So, I see no merits of discussing it. And people in that website are doing WP:Meatpuppetry.--Visnelma (talk) 08:50, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I meant discussing the definition the article. It has to be disscussed. --Basak (talk) 08:54, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The definition was added after a concencus and it is supported by reliable sources. There is no point of discussing it.--Visnelma (talk) 08:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. But after the edit is online, this piece of information is visible to every internet user and it's normal that there will be more people who would like to share their knowledge and point of view that. Naturally, many of them are not familiar with Wikipedia editing and policies. So, such reactions could be expected. We must be open to new discussions.--Basak (talk) 09:03, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Visnelma, nothing is immune from discussion. However it would need to be discussion based on what high-quality references say (such as are cited at present), rather than lots of arm-waving and editors asserting it wasn't a genocide or ethnic cleansing. FDW777 (talk) 09:23, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say it can't be discussed. I said there is no point of discussing it since there are reliable sources and concencus.--Visnelma (talk) 09:55, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Sheer number of edits", eh? Let them try. Then we can laugh when they see how ridiculously easy it is for us to restore old revisions and EC-protect articles. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 09:31, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Eksisozluk.com is not a 4chan-like site, to be honest. Most of the users are supporting the opposition parties, which is most of them leftist, even the current ruling party sued a lot of lawsuits against them. So calling them government-controlled and far-right is just absurd and misinformation.Thorrul.btc (talk) 12:46, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Left" doesn't mean anything more than "not religious right" in Turkey tbh. 3512495a (talk) 14:52, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ekşi is a left-oriented website. You can even find PKK sympathizers there. And the comment above is really useless and senseless. --► Sincerely: Solavirum 17:59, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The PKK sympathizers are a minority. I think the left label is self-proclaimed, only makes sense in the context of Turkish politics and has little relation to how the word is used throughout the world. Just go and check the most liked entries of topics related to Arabs, Armenians, Greek Cypriots, Pan-Turanism, Turkism and Kemalism and see if you can find any leftism in them. 3512495a (talk) 06:30, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that something should be done to keep the current disinformation based anti-Turkish propaganda from being removed from the article. Otherwise we risk being having non-biased and historically accurate information available. – anlztrk (talk) 18:03, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Another sh*tstorm is going on on reddit/Turkey. Comments about getting the editors living in Turkey arrested are being upvoted. Be careful about the links you get sent. Since there have been a lot of complaints on CİMER (Presidential Communication Center) I'm pretty sure the cyber crimes are looking into it too. https://reddit.com/n4xyo9/ https://reddit.com/n4kq0t/ https://reddit.com/n50i4d/ https://reddit.com/n55aw9/ https://reddit.com/n59vk8/ 3512495a (talk) 20:58, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lol eksisozluk 4chan? It's even older than reddit. It's simply a forum website. You have every people of every ideas there. Beshogur (talk) 15:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I really hate ekşi sözlük, but it's nothing near 4chan. it's just a forum. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~Contact Circassia 21:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly it's not far right groups and secondly you're telling lie by it's ethnic cleansing and continuation of ethnic cleansing. what were you expecting of course people will want it fix it. ZeusAmmon1 (talk) 07:55, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Topic is on turkish news

https://www.yenicaggazetesi.com.tr/mobi/wikipediada-buyuk-skandal-turk-kurtulus-savasina-iftira-attilar-450203h.htm Shadow4dark (talk) 12:32, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Buidhe, you're in that, take care. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:47, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.internethaber.com/wikipediada-turk-kurtulus-savasi-skandali-iftira-attilar-2182053h.htm https://haberiskelesi.com/2021/05/04/wikipediada-turkiyeye-buyuk-saygisizlik/ They just copy paste the news from each other, lol.--Visnelma (talk) 12:37, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.aydinlik.com.tr/vikipedi-de-kurtulus-savasimiza-alcak-iftira-243224-1#1--Visnelma (talk) 13:20, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop removing these links, they are highly relevant to this article, can be incorporated potentially and give editors who look at this talk page a heads up on impending disruption. Grogudicae👽 17:37, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure these are all reliable but they are certainly relevant and should be discussed here, especially considering the coordinated attempt to change content in the article to suit the above mentioned sources and WP:POV. Grogudicae👽 17:46, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Shadow4dark:, what do you mean under attack? Every other article is under attack by ip users. I can list dozens here. You simply ask for a page protection. That's it. Beshogur (talk) 17:45, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See above, page is already under protection. Shadow4dark (talk) 17:48, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Shadow4dark: that's what I am telling. Placing this above like a reddit post is really necessary? Beshogur (talk) 17:49, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's also a good way to start a discussion on whether or not Yeniçağ should ever be used at all, considering it's in mainspace 160 times. Grogudicae👽 17:52, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Beshogur you also alluded to this being original research, can you enlighten me as to how you drew this conclusion? Grogudicae👽 18:01, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Praxidicae: that's not a third party talking about the news being written, simply you can't put these in an article and make your own statement. Beshogur (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't implying that we would use this as the sole source for anything and that's why I said "should be discussed" instead of edit warring to remove topically relevant content from the talk page. Yodadicae👽 18:07, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest that moving the use of 'ethnic cleansing' from the first sentence of the lede to somewhere else in the lede would probably be wise for a number of reasons. We can acknowledge that ethnic cleansing happened during this war without putting it so provocatively in the first sentence of the lede, which, from a Turkish perspective, seems calculated to offend. Given that Wikipedia was banned for 2.5 years in Turkey by the government, and given the Sevres Syndrome which prevails across much of the nationalist media in that country, it seems to me unwise to give such prominence to this aspect of the war. While I absolutely think that the article should talk about this aspect of the war in its body, putting it in the first sentence makes it seem like a very Western-perspective article. Because we are having this discussion in English on English Wikipedia, you won't get a lot of Turkish Wikipedians coming here to give their perspective, and I worry that the lack of this perspective risks us ignoring the strong consensus in Turkey around the image of this war as one fought primarily to defend the rump of the Ottoman Empire from Western invading forces. Again, I would emphasise that I think this article should give prominence in the body to instances of ethnic cleansing such as the burning of the Greek quarter in Smyrna, but the majority of the ethnic cleansing that happened at the end of the Ottoman Empire took place before the independence war began. Putting it prominently as one of the objectives of this war will be totally rejected by Turkish Wikipedians and most historians, gives an Occidentalist slant to the article, and also risks devaluing and damaging the work of our Turkish Wikimedia community to promote the projects in their country. I would strongly argue that these words should be moved to somewhere else in the lede and given less prominence as an objective of the war. Jwslubbock (talk) 20:41, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I absolutely don't agree that we should change our content—not because it violates core content policy, but in order to be accepted anywhere in the world. For the same reason, we should not compromise our neutrality on issues like Tibet, Taiwan and Xinjiang in order to get unblocked in China. If this view of the war is indeed "totally rejected by... most historians" then you would easily find reliable sources saying that's the case. (t · c) buidhe 20:50, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with Jwslubbock that we should give in to Turkish POV. If the Turkish Wikipedia community wants to change content, it can, but with reliable sources. Turks once need to learn, that what is taught to them in schools and through the media is often just not true, when it comes to minorities or the political opposition.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:12, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Including both POV's is not "giving in" into any one of them. Your second sentence is extremely racist and presumptuous and I hope you are not editing any articles with such misguided assumptions. DriedGrape (talk) 23:12, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Gonna add my voice to the chorus here. The ruffled sensibilities of Turkish nationalists is something that we, in the end, should pay no heed to. This kind of bullying has been taking place for more than a century, from everything from preventing film adaptions of the Armenian Genocide from being made to removing any references to the genocide in school curricula in the United States (!). Should we kowtow to the whims of autocrats like Erdogan or the CCP for that matter every time we write about the genocide or Kurds or Uighurs or Tibet? Gotta say, it's pretty cool to see that this much dust is kicked up on the Turkish websites, but this is nothing new. Scholarship has progressed so rapidly in the last decade that suddenly these positions are not as controversial as the din and howl of the press are making it out to be. I will, however, concede that we should not get head of the scholarship and that a case can be made to include mention of the ethnic cleansing campaigns in the second or third paragraphs (all things being equal). Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:47, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I see no discussion at RSN that suggests the references (listed at Talk:Turkish War of Independence/Archive 2#Citation needed tag should be added (see also in the article at Turkish War of Independence#cite note-:0-62 are not reliable. Nor would there be, since anyone bothering to look at the quality of the references would see they are 100% reliable. FDW777 (talk) 07:11, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is so much activity on the talk page, some disruptive and some from good faith contributors, that it's become difficult to navigate. The discussion at RSN, though poorly attended was about the recent newspaper articles, also the subject of this section. Obviously, we don't use them as WP:RS. Spudlace (talk) 09:48, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

New News

  1. https://haberiskelesi.com/2021/05/07/wikipediadan-geri-adim-o-skandal-ifade-kaldirildi/
  2. https://www.gercekgundem.com/guncel/272815/wikipedia-tartisma-yaratan-etnik-temizlik-ifadesini-kaldirdi--V. E. (talk) 15:28, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess info would be good for the discussion: Topic is on Turkish news. I'll move it up there as the talk page for now is long and repetitive. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:14, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

The page claims that Mustafa Kemal Ataturk has led the CUP, this in addition to several other clearly politically motivated edits should be addressed. Notumengi (talk) 21:16, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Notumengi Please specify the other specific passages that are not summarizing independent reliable sources accurately. We cannot respond to a general grievance. I'm not sure how you know the motivation of other editors' edits, but that's not often relevant as long as sources are summarized accurately. 331dot (talk) 20:33, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Notumengi: I take it you refer to the lead? It doesn't say that he lead the CUP, merely that he gathered the remaining elements after its dissolution. Seeing as the CUP included much of the government bureacracy and many prominent politicians, it makes sense that those elements would come under the control of Ataturk. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 21:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It does however claim in the lead, that he led the CUP, "the Turkish War of Independence began with remaining elements of the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) forming a counter government in Anatolia, led by Mustafa Kemal." In reality, while he was part of the Young Turks (which is also questionable), the overarching movement of the CUP, for a time, he never actually led the CUP movement and has been in constant conflict with it, he created his own separate Turkish National Movement with different ideals than those of the CUP. following the dissolution of the CUP many of its members would go on to join Ataturk's faction which by then has become the main force fighting in the war, they would later go on form the modern Turkish republican party, while you could claim that having former CUP members within the party influenced its politics, it would be disingenuous to claim that he led the movement proper, especially considering that many of the CUP who joined Ataturk's faction did so because they believed in his ideals rather than the CUP. If this sentence is meant to say that Ataturk took on the lead of the war from the CUP by also inheriting some of its members then it should be clear that Ataturk founded his own separate movement from the CUP, not a successor remnant of it. Notumengi (talk) 23:23, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources consider the CHP a continuation of CUP in terms of its historical origins. (t · c) buidhe 22:44, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Apples and Oranges are being mixed here

The Tehcir Law deportations of the Armenians took place between 1915-1917 during World War I. The Turkish War of Independence began after the Occupation of Istanbul (1918) and the Occupation of Izmir (1919). The fight against Greece was in western Anatolia, the fight against Armenia was in eastern Anatolia, the fight against France was in southern and southeastern Anatolia, while Istanbul was jointly occupied by Britain and Italy (the latter also occupying the Mediterranean coast of Anatolia and central Anatolia). There were no "deportations" during the Turkish War of Independence (1919-1922). The Greeks of Anatolia left the country with the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey (1923) which was signed by both Greece and Turkey (the Greeks living in Turkey were transferred to Greece, while the Turks living in Greece were transferred to Turkey). Hoeppala (talk) 20:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The population "exchange" is described as ethnic cleansing by historians. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 21:07, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's called a divorce. The end of the multiethnic Ottoman Empire, replaced by independent nation-states. Hoeppala (talk) 02:15, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, you call it a divorce. However, you are not a historian. Wikipedia cares about representing the opinion of historians and political scientists, not those of common people like you and me. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI converse | fings wot i hav dun 10:47, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Ethnic cleansing" and similar in the lead

I noticed at WP:AN that this is in the news in Turkey and seems to make people there angry. I'm all for following reliable academic sources whether or not it angers nationalists on one side or another of a border. In this case, I haven't read the sources and won't express an opinion on whether the article should describe this war as related to or comprising ethnic cleansing (although it does sound plausible with my limited knowledge of the subject).

But there's one huge problem: the lead boldly asserts thrice that the war was in part about ethnic cleansing, but the body of the article is entirely silent about the topic, apart from an empty section with the title "Ethnic cleansing". That's really, really bad editorial work, and people are right to be annoyed about it. Per WP:LEAD, the lead is a summary of the article. Per MOS:LEADNO, "significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article". If there's nothing in the body about ethnic cleansing, nothing about it should be in the lead. The same goes for the lead's references to "genocide of Christian minority groups" and "massacres and deportations in order to eliminate native Christian populations". These are all very important aspects of the topic that would need massive coverage and sourcing in the body in order to show up at all in the lead, let alone to this extent.

I'm therefore temporarily removing this material from the lead until somebody can cover it in appropriate detail in the body, using high-quality sourcing. @FDW777 and Buidhe: as experienced editors of this article you may want to get on that. Sandstein 21:10, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The appropriate solution would be expanding the text not removing it, I have already stated this issue earlier and then added Histography section as per WP:SOFIXIT.--Visnelma (talk) 21:13, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Good move Sandstein, I was just reading the body and found it lacking in details, and was going to do the same. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 21:15, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Yes, the appropriate solution would be expanding the article body, as I wrote. But until somebody does that (and I cannot, lacking relevant sources and knowledge), the appropriate solution is absolutely to remove the material from the lead per MOS:LEADNO. Even then, the mention of the topic in the lead should be proportionate to its coverage in the body, per the same MOS guidance. Sandstein 21:17, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This was brought up, by me, above at #Content missing from body? I had hoped some progress would have been made by now. I don't have access to the references, other than the quotes provided. FDW777 (talk) 21:29, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As I wrote above in another section, I agree that the words 'ethnic cleansing' should not be in the first sentence of the lede. This is especially more so if it's not in the body. The ethnic cleansing that happened as a result of the war, for example in the burning of the Greek part of Smyrna, should be put in historical context in the body. Putting it on equal footing in the first sentence of the lede makes it seem like it was a core aim of the war, which is not reflected in modern Turkish historiography, in books like Zurcher's Turkey A Modern History, for example. I agree that we shouldn't be affected by what nationalists think, but the problem here is that we risk recounting this war from a very Occidentalist perspective if we totally ignore the Turkish perspective that the war was fought as a liberation war against occupation by Allied forces. Without discounting that ethnic cleansing did happen as a result of the war, and atrocities were committed by both Turkish and Greek armies on each other's communities, significant ethnic cleansing had already happened before the independence war, and continued after with the population exchanges which followed. Prominently labelling this war as having the purpose of ethnic cleansing is problematic from a historical perspective, and also has the attendant risks of further prejudicing Turkish media against Wikipedia and making problems for our Turkish Wikimedia community in their attempts to promote the projects in their own country. I think the lede could reflect further down that ethnic cleansing took place without it being so prominently put in the first sentence. Jwslubbock (talk) 21:30, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. There seems to be a couple highly zealous editors here who are trying to rush the whole discussion process and circumvent the reliability ensurance just to edit the lead accordingly to their own views, not of the articles. --DriedGrape (talk)
This isn't a good reason to remove content from the lead that is adequately supported. Rather it's a reason to add content to the body. The guideline you cite states, "This admonition should not be taken as a reason to exclude information from the lead, but rather to harmonize coverage in the lead with material in the body of the article." (t · c) buidhe 21:41, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Buidhe, and the section has been improved. Also other consequences for other projects should not be a factor when we are writing an article. Also according to reliable sources, ethnic cleansing took place which is important enough to be mentioned in the lead.--Visnelma (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Sandstein, that was the right call. I also note that a proper consensus was never really established for the definition of this event as an ethnic cleansing campaign. Before this blew over with this mob business, I had voiced my concerns above that the sources that have been used for this definition 1) mostly describe an ethnic cleansing campaign besides the Turkish War of Independence, rather than defining the War of Independence as an ethnic cleansing campaign (with the exception of a limited number of sources) 2) the ones that unequivocally describe the War of Independence as an ethnic cleansing campaign tend to be relatively niche sources, not from mainstream historiography but from the genocide studies field - we should not be having to look at Avedian's obscure journal articles for a definition of the War of Independence when very authoritative reference works are readily available (note that I am explicitly referring to non-denialist literature here) and 3) whilst there appears to be a tendency in newer academic works to increasingly adopt this definition, major reference works such as the Cambridge History of Turkey do not as of yet define the War of Independence as an ethnic cleansing campaign, so by adopting this definition as Wikipedia we are jumping the gun and placing ourselves ahead of the scholarship curve. I described my concerns in much greater detail above and don't want to repeat myself. I cannot see how those concerns have been addressed at all, it appears that once Srnec rescinded their objection to this statement, two users agreed to install this definition without really addressing them. Ethnic cleansing does certainly have its place in this article's introduction, but the first sentence is not the place to have it, not yet anyway until this potentially trickles down to major reference works. The disruptive edits of the mob must not hold us Wikipedians back from having a sober talk about this. --GGT (talk) 22:37, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Cambridge History of Turkey *is* a denialist work. Probably some parts of it are written to scholarly standard but it was explicitly criticized for its (lack of) coverage and non-acknowledgement of Armenian genocide. I'm fine if we end up not mentioning the ethnic cleansing in the first sentence, but it is a crucial factor in Turkey's existence in its current form, according to reliable sources. (t · c) buidhe 22:42, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think GGT touched on an important point, that regardless of whether or not establishing the war as a "campaign of ethnic cleansing" is correct, it is a separate event and therefore should not be as prominent in this article. Trying to include anything else besides the conflict between the aforomentioned states and the related wars within the article expands it to something more than what it is and fails being descriptive of the Turkish War of Independence itself or of the ethnic cleansing on both sides. DriedGrape (talk) 23:06, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just because there have been criticism by some scholars for not handling the genocide with the depth that it may have (a criticism that I would tend to agree with), we cannot decide to ignore the major reference works on the history of Turkey (and no I would not call it a denialist work, even the critique cited in the article calls it "timid" at its harshest). All major reference works would have their critiques in one form or the other. We may well agree with them but that is not to mean that it should not be those works that are our primary point of reference as an encyclopaedia. This is not the place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. When we start excluding all sources that define the War of Independence otherwise because of this critique or that, gather a selection of articles or chapters that have not even attracted that depth of scholarly attention or scrutiny, as well as use sources that do not explicitly define the War of Independence as an act of ethnic cleansing to define it as such, that starts to sound very much like cherry picking. We are an encyclopaedia, we have to be conservative and behind the curve when it comes to these things. Anyway, I do see a scope for consensus here. I'm fine with mentioning the fact that ethnic cleansing was formative to the formation of modern Turkey - we already have multiple articles that discuss this at depth and it clearly merits being in the lead here too. The first sentence though is too much, too soon. --GGT (talk) 22:58, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but I must say that GGT is not being geniune with his arguments. In Turkish Wikipedia I used the same sources to add the definition ethnic cleansing. Later it was reverted, and I said at least both definitions should be equally mentioned since it is not a fringe theory. But he said, "Hayır, maddenin tek bir tanımı olacaktır..." (No, the article will have only one definition...) But now here he argues, "Ethnic cleansing does certainly have its place in this article's introduction."[10] Besides, he only cites one source while ethnic cleansing was cited with about 12 sources. I am willing to make further translations if needed.--Visnelma (talk) 23:20, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I wish you already had. You are cherry picking his quotes, as you are doing with your edits frankly, on both the sites and disregarding how he continues to stress his other, quite valid concerns on the reputability of the written material on the article. Also, those two are not conflicting statements. "Definition" and "having a place within the article's introduction". Keep ad hominem out of the argument please.DriedGrape (talk) 23:26, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So, you are saying that sources cited in this article are not reliable? Also he cited only one source for what he claims to be mainstream scholarship.--Visnelma (talk) 23:32, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone wishing to learn about what I wrote on tr.wiki can message me for a full translation of the discussion there (it's otherwise not relevant here), for Visnelma I would recommend a look at Graham's hierarchy of disagreement. The only other notable argument here is "you're only citing one source", well academia and Wikipedia don't really work like football, I needn't cite every other history of Turkey here to make my point, and I won't be responding to any more ad hominems. Anyway, thank you Buidhe for your recent edits, the current version is certainly more agreeable with me. --GGT (talk) 23:36, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What I am saying is you can't claim a view is mainstream by citing only one source whereas there are 12 reliable sources for the other claim.--Visnelma (talk) 23:38, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, sorry i am not a Wikipedia writer but i think you guys need an outsider of Wikipedia rules and regulations to see from a different perspective. Wikipedia is a great source when topic is scientific but a horrible place to discuss near and conflicted history. People with more resources can change anything with biased information. And editors who have no idea about that history would just confirm that change because of number of citations.

Imagine if Wikipedia was a thing in 1615 and Galileo Galilei [1] was editing a page about Copernican heliocentrism [2]. With your -more citation means more reliable info- logic you would delete Galileo Galilei's edit and write "Sun is orbiting Earth". Because most of the astronomers of that era was just under the influence of Catholic Church.

My point is Wikipedia should be a place of quality not quantity. If a page is argued this much removing it is better than giving false information to people. Thank you for making my voice heard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.133.236.70 (talk • contribs) 05:43, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the third paragraph of the leed reference to Ronald Grigor Suny is somewhat misleading. The relevent section of the paragraph is/can be read as follows (unrelated parts are omitted): "With the war, elimination of Christians,[62] (...) came to an end, and (...) the Turks created the modern, secular nation-state of Turkey." The referenced part of Ronald Grigor Suny's work is follows: "The Armenian Genocide, along with the killing of Assyrians and the expulsion of the Anatolian Greeks, laid the ground for the more homogeneous nation-state that arose from the ashes of the empire. Like many other states, including Australia, Israel, and the United States, the emergence of the Republic of Turkey involved the removal and subordination of native peoples who had lived on its territory prior to its founding." I have the book and examined it. The book does not examine the events during TWoI. Even the writer claims that the Genocide ended on January 1917 (see p.330: "The Genocide of the Armenians can be said to have ended by late January 1917."). The book refers to TWoI only one time on p.342 ("The Turkish War of Independence came to an end a month later with the armistice signed on October 11, 1922, at Mudanya") This source does not relate the elimination of Christians with the TWoI. Though, elimination of Christians (prior or during the TWoI) might be deemed to have laid the groundwork for nation-state building and the sentence in the leed might be deemed correct, this source cannot be referenced for a claim linking TWoI to elimination of Christians, since it does not make one. It must be further elaborated with other references. Megalomanda138 (talk) 05:53, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Death
  2. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_heliocentrism

Bad faith edits

"A phrase originating out of Kemalist historiography, the Turkish War of Independence began with remaining elements of the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP)" This doesn't make any sense and has just been tacked onto the start of the paragraph in the lead. Also, "Kemalist Historiography" seems to be original research. I've only found one proper reference to this and it's a Wikipedia article that has been recently created. The 30/500 rule is evidently not working to protect this article as there are two users here who are making bad faith edits. The ethnic cleansing section in the lead also fails to mention the atrocities commited by the invading Greek article. If a section like this is added here, then it should also be added to the lead of the Greek revolution article and also the 1991 Aze-Arm conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bertan92 (talk • contribs) 00:42, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Bertan92:seems to be original research everything is properly sourced in the body.The 30/500 rule is evidently not working to protect this article as there are two users here who are making bad faith edits. The semi-protection is put to prevent vandals and inexperienced users (such as yourself) from disruptive editing and is working perfectly as intended, the rest are experienced editors adding sourced concent (though from what I understand you guys don't like historic accuracy) it should also be added to the lead of the Greek revolution article and also the 1991 Aze-Arm conflict WP:OTHERSTUFF, please argue in their respect articles. - Kevo327 (talk) 08:59, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Casualities

@Solavirum: I explained why I reverted your edits in edit history, best regards.--Visnelma (talk) 20:20, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Solavirum: The source you cited states about 600.000 Muslims died. But why did you label all them as Turks?--Visnelma (talk) 20:46, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You should quote the text. I couldn't find anything like that. Also, the sources I've provided don't imply military casualties. --► Sincerely: Solavirum 20:44, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
They say Anatolian Muslims. Who else can they be? --► Sincerely: Solavirum 20:47, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Solavirum: Including Kurds, maybe?--Visnelma (talk) 20:49, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, but it says Western front okay.--Visnelma (talk) 20:49, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going offline atm. Before anything, about the Muslims. The sources imply the deaths in Greek-occupied Western Anatolia. I've quoted them there and they are verifiable. There are no other Muslim groups besides Turks in Western Anatolia. --► Sincerely: Solavirum 20:50, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Visnelma, since when the Kurds started living in the Aegean? Unless they changed their homeland for a brief moment, those stats don't include Kurds. --► Sincerely: Solavirum 20:51, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Solavirum: That's why I said "Ah, but it says Western front okay."--Visnelma (talk) 20:53, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, didn't saw your previous comment. Well, if anything else worries you about the addition, make me aware. Good luck! --► Sincerely: Solavirum 20:53, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
https://psi427.cankaya.edu.tr/uploads/files/Shaw,%20History_of_the%20Ott%20Empire.pdf pg. 342 claims specifically Turks were targeted in the attacks. Also, I'd suggest just putting both the numbers together as Solavirum said and labeling it "... Turkish and other Muslim Civilians killed in the Western Front" until we can establish a distinction. DriedGrape (talk) 20:13, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
buidhe, ah yeah, that's right. I suggest labeling it "Turkish and other Muslim civilians", just because the undisputed fact that the region was mostly populated by Turkish people, with Muslim minorities being present as well. --► Sincerely: Solavirum 23:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bad faith edits 2

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


User:GGT User:Sandstein User:DriedGrape I raised my concerns about certain edits that have been made by a clique of users in the past two days, specified above and was instead responded to with a personal attack by a Syrian nationalist user. Do you mind taking a another look. I know it was discussed before in the above section but they've gone about doing the exact same thing and have even added a "histriography" that is cited entirely from a single, hostile source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bertan92 (talk • contribs)

@Bertan92: You are more than welcome to propose other reliable sources that examine the historiography. But it is apparent there are very different views of events in Turkey and outside of Turkey, and that there is an orthodox Kemalist version of events that may not entirely capture the truth. AdmiralEek (talk) 20:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I believe putting in both POVs and rewording the section to better reflect that these are two views would be better. Also, the reference 94 [1] within that section has no link or title or anything. Any able user should either fix that or remove the sentence.DriedGrape (talk) 22:18, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@DriedGrape: Okay, but you need to suggest a reliable academic source that we can use. Also, we already discuss the Turkish perspective at great length, pointing out what it believes, and the flaws it has. AdmiralEek (talk) 22:22, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but currently the historiography section starts off okay then instantly reads like it is trying to deconstruct a POV that wasn't even presented. Maybe adding a few sentences or a summary of the related chapter from Atatürk's Great Speech would be better. This will probably require an overhaul of the section however, I will have to look into this. I think all major edits done within the duration of the article protection will have to be re-examined anyways after this blows over. DriedGrape (talk) 22:35, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The historiography section is in a bit of an odd place, most articles don't start with that. However, in this case the historiography greatly affects how the article is perceived. Thus in a sense the section is explaining why the article is written from the non-Kemalist perspective. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 00:32, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Non-Kemalist" doesn't mean it necessarily reflects the truth though, and the rest of the article, except for a few sections doesn't really hold any singular perspective. Even so, the way it is written at the moment devolves into that perspective too quickly, a negative without a positive per se. At least one paragraph for the so called "Kemalist perspective" is needed rather than just two sentences I would say. DriedGrape (talk) 01:31, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
DriedGrape, Well again, you are welcome to provide such a source for consideration, and I can take a look at it. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 01:38, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
DriedGrape The "histriography" section is based on a single source, one that claims the aim of the national movement was not to fight the invading militaries but rather to kill Christians. It's also telling the user what to think, which is why the it has been placed at the very top. It's also making sweeping statements about the entire body of work that's been made by historians so far, then further goes along to claim that there is an "unorthodox" school that has differing opinionsBertan92 (talk)
Yes, the way it currently is definitely unacceptable, read the discussion I had with CaptainEek above. Also, you're right, the wording itself definitely seems like it is trying to shift the viewer towards one perspective. Although I don't understand why you're pinging me. I lately don't have the time for a back and forth in order to edit the article. DriedGrape (talk) 19:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Bertan92: also, I think you mean a nationalist Syrian editor, and not a Syrian nationalist editor as they are totally different. And thank you for the effort of calling me Syrian in the first place. - Kevo327 (talk) 21:56, 5 May 2021 (UTC) anyway isn't this canvassing? 21:56, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Eastern Resolution - Treaty of Alexandropol

It is claimed in the "Eastern Resolution" section that Treaty of Alexandropol was "illegitimate" without any references. A reference should be added for this claim. In the treaty's wiki page, there is a reference to Richard Hovannissian who claims that the treaty was invalid. This reference might be added to the relevant section. However, it should be noted that Hovannissian has no academic credentials at law, he is a historian. Since, there is legal continuity between First Republic of Armenia and Soviet Republic of Armenia, the mere fact that the power being transferred to Soviets (sovietization) does not in itself make the represantion powers granted to Alexander Khatisyan (signator on behalf of the Republic of Armenia) null and void. This reference might be added to the relevant section. However, since the author is not a legal scholar but a historian, further clarification and references are needed. Therefore, for the time being, maybe a [disputed – discuss] or [dubious – discuss] note might be added, if there are no further references that can be found. How should we proceed? Megalomanda138 (talk) 11:20, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

One Issue with Recent Edits

Though the lede's wording has taken a turn for the better, appearing more neutral towards Turkish forces yet still mentioning genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc., there is one edit which stands out in peculiarity. The "640,000 Muslims dead" added in the infobox (the original source seems to be Justin McCarthy, a genocide denier) seems spurious. What is a Muslim in this context? Is it relevant in this article?; there is no "Christian deaths" section because there shouldn't be, the Armenians and Greeks and Assyrians were targeted because of their ethnicity, not their faith. If and when Turkish civilians were massacred and killed, it was because of their ethnicity, not faith. So "Muslim" deaths is deliberately inflammatory, and I sense its addition is to intentionally frame this war as an epic struggle between "Christians and Muslims" by certain users in order to adhere to a certain reactionary worldview. Besides, the number rings a bell, like the farcical claims from the Iğdır Genocide Memorial and Museum that more "Muslims" (here again we see the word used to inflame passions) died than physically possible. It seems that McCarthy is attempting the same feat with the figure of 640,000 dead, attempting to minimize the targeting of minority groups while exaggerating the (very real) suffering of the majority ethnic group. We should not use the scholarship of a genocide denier in this article, just as we do not use the scholarship of David Irving on the Holocaust page. I suggest removing that number from the infobox.2601:85:C101:C9D0:A588:7829:8E14:6ED6 (talk) 00:17, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

One of the sources however, states otherwise.[2] It also states 600.000 as its maximum *Muslim* death count in the East so targeting by religion was definitely real just as targeting by ethnicity on both sides. Also, Justin McCarthy and David Irving are nothing alike. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DriedGrape (talk • contribs) 01:20, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rummel has exaggerated casualty lists for all conflicts (he's claimed that an astonishing 148 million people died to communism. Alone. In the 20th century. Not to mention saying that 400 million people were killed in massacres and wars in the 1900s. It's absurd.) He's hardly a reliable source in this matter. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:A588:7829:8E14:6ED6 (talk) 01:41, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Justin McCarthy and David Irving are nothing alike" - plenty would dispute that and say that they are, in the methodology and goals of their opinions and published works and stances, in many ways alike. Article figures regarding casualties must take regard of existing academic consensus, and caution needs to be taken before inserting extreme-end figures on the basis that one source claims them (especially if there are numerous other sources that have written that that one source has a well-known agenda that does not match academic consensus). 78.149.46.96 (talk) 01:51, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely not. If you were to check the cited source, you'd see that his methodologies are the same as the ones cited for other casualties, with that logic, we should remove all casualties due to their way of estimation. I am all for more sources for EVERY casualty but McCarthy is definitely reliable in this sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DriedGrape (talk • contribs) 23:59, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(Original IP) Still, his dubious background (genocide denier/minimizer) remains. Perhaps his methodology is the same, but his sources are probably skewed are falsified. I do not know this myself, but my point is his background is grounds for exclusion. Like I said, it's like having Irving on the Holocaust page. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:D59:4B9:2D0F:6032 (talk) 05:02, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Good editorial work would be examining such sources with their backgrounds in mind of course, however if as you said their methodologies hold and a work of theirs can hold encyclopedic value, then it is only illogical to refuse them. His numbers should stay but like I said, I am all in for expansion of all casualties with more sources.DriedGrape (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(Original IP) Precisely, the number should be removed. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:D822:4D26:79AB:3FFB (talk) 18:45, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Sjöberg 2016, p. 40.
  2. ^ https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP5.HTM

    "Note that throughout the tables I use the specific term genocide where appropriate, rather than the more general democide. Here, the people were murdered simply because they were Christians, Armenians, Greeks, or Moslems. "

Turkish War of Independence was also a civil war

This news article here[11] states that movements of other factions in the war should not be considered as a revolt but rather a civil war. You can read the article for detailed information.--V. E. (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are Turkish Sources Allowed

Turkish sources are allowed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I want to make sure Turkish sources that counteracts(With Evidence) Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide are allowed before I do anything in this page(granted they ever release this site from Protected status). Or will they be dismissed because they are Turkish. I am starting to notice US vs Them mentality here. I don't want to get into detail why but I certainly can if anyone wishes. I examined it thoroughly and I noticed a lot of the recent edits on this topic are politically motivated. If you are preventing the other side from using their own resources(ei McCarthy), then you are allowing this Wikipedia page to turn into political propaganda tool. In return, this rises a lot of question about Wikipedias Credibility. Oyond (talk) 19:30, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To answer your question: Turkish sources are allowed. That you find RS that counteract (with evidence!) Ethnic cleansing and Genocide I doubt. Millions of Christians (Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians) have disappeared and they didn't leave voluntarily.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:29, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the reply. What would you identify as Credible Source. What I want to do is set some premise here before anyone writing or sources are falsely dismissed as simply "Genicode Denial" or Anti-Christian. Extending 1915 events to Turkish War of Independence intentional. There will be casualties since war was fought with weapons... And yes it was literally Christian(Allied Powers) vs Muslims(Turkey). Saying Christians was killed therefore Genocide is contradictory. Tbh there are a lot of contradictions in this page I want to address once the protection is lifted. For example: Most of the pro Armenian articles sited here are written after 2000, but there is not a single mention of Bolsheviks/Lenin's outlook to Turkish War of Independence during 1920's. I think its very interesting non allied nation deemed Independence War Anti-Imperialist, war of self-determination. Oyond (talk) 19:30, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What a Reliable source (credible source) is, you can read at WP:RS. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is good summery of Bolshevics point of view on Turkish War of Independence. This article also talks about Allied forces outlook on Ottoman Empire, and their intent to partition it since 1900's. http://kutuphane.halkcephesi.net/Yazarlarold/Erdogan%20Ahmet/lenin%20National%20liberation%20war%20turkish.htm Each Source mentioned in the article can be easily fact checked by the articles existing in: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/cw/volume45.htm

Mehmet Perincek Also has extensive study on Russian Archives, but it is in Turkish. If anyone has the book maybe they can share it here.

That being said there is also another intentional bias with citations here. Most of the Pro- Armenian Articles supporting Turkish War of Independence Ethnic Cleansing arguments come after 2010. It came as a wave in Academia by Pro Armenian Authors. Some of them are quiet blatantly making academic career out of it. IE: Taner Akcam. If you look at his biography he has not written anything besides this topic. If articles before 2000 are blocked then there is risk of cherry picking sources that serves Anti-Turkish sentiments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.42.14.135 (talk • contribs) 03:31, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Turkish sources are allowed. but only sources with turkphobia are allowed. Even though it was written two weeks ago, it is still a reliable source. Example : "Gündoğan, Kazım (4 Haziran 2021). "Osmanlı ve Türkiye'de" . gazeteduvar (Türkçe) . Erişim tarihi: 8 Haziran 2021 ." [64] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.245.194.181 (talk) 02:44, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic cleansing and the Holocaust Museum in Yerevan

Multiple Meanings In The Lede

The first paragraph reads:

"The campaigns were directed against Greece in the west, Armenia in the east, France in the south, royalists and separatists in various cities, and Britain and Italy in Constantinople (now Istanbul).[56][57][58] Simultaneously, the Turkish nationalist movement carried out massacres and deportations in order to eliminate native Christian populations—a continuation of the Armenian Genocide and other ethnic cleansing operations during World War I.[59] These campaigns resulted in the creation of the Republic of Turkey."

It can be understood as such that it was the ethnic cleansing campaigns which resulted in creation of Turkey, not a revolution against the allied occupation. Therefore I think changing it as:

"The campaigns were directed against Greece in the west, Armenia in the east, France in the south, royalists and separatists in various cities, and Britain and Italy in Constantinople (now Istanbul).[56][57][58] These campaigns resulted in the creation of the Republic of Turkey.

Simultaneously, the Turkish nationalist movement carried out massacres and deportations in order to eliminate native Christian populations—a continuation of the Armenian Genocide and other ethnic cleansing operations during World War I."

to remove the wrong meaning which was probably written with a political agenda would be the correct action.

I must also address the sentence of "...in order to eliminate native Christian populations—a continuation of the Armenian Genocide..." it was agreed on the Armenian Genocide talk page with many debates that the dates were between 1915 and 1917. This sentence, in the lede, contradicts that. Emre Dokur (talk) 10:55, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Protecting the discussion page

@Jeppiz: @Paradise Chronicle: @SilentResident: Constantly, same arguments repeat itself without reliable sources being cited which do not help the article to get improved. Maybe the discussion page should be protected again.--V. E. (talk) 20:28, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Visnelma: Talk Page cannot be locked from auto-confirmed editors without locking all auto-confirmed editors from accessing it, I think. That could be too extreme. You may just ignore them and try discuss with the rest of editors who aren't WP:FILIBUSTERing and who are really interested in improving the article. Keep up the good work! Also User:Buidhe is quite an asset in this topic area, considering their vast knowledge of Turkey-related issues, so, try consider cooperating together. I don't know history very well but I will be gladly here to assist in any way I can. . --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 20:58, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You should keep it open, there is alot to be gained by it. Also Its good verification of peoples point of views as they discuss topics. We are all influenced by our ideology/past educations ect. I want to keep reading time to time as different discussions happen. Lets not be too extreme when challenged. I found buidhe's reply valuable, even though I don't agree with it. --Oyond (talk) 22:18, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that people are repeating same arguments without citing reliable sources, not having different opinions.--V. E. (talk) 22:33, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring on this article

@Buidhe: If there is a problem with disruption in the talk page discussions it should be reported to administrators. I see some things that might be disruption and should be resolved by administrators who are not involved, but there is plenty of good faith discussion mixed in and it clearly is controversial. It was removed by an administrator, who started the discussion section. I'm not that worried about the result as long as you get the consensus for it. I'm strongly recommending an RfC over continued edit warring. Spudlace (talk) 09:38, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Two reverts over multiple days is not "edit warring". Discounting SPA editors is common practice. Your reversion of well-sourced material is however unwarranted. (t · c) buidhe 09:50, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Which SPA editors are you referring to? There is a lot of recent discussion but I don't know who is SPA or whether we would just ignore them for consensus. I think uninvolved editors would do the close. Spudlace (talk) 09:59, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted Spudlace and warned them for edit warring. Spudlace, you're right that there's edit warring going on, but I'm afraid you're very much the one most engaged in it. Your constant removal of well-sourced content is also troubling and has not been sufficiently explained. Quite the contrary, the content is better sourced than at least 99.99% of all sentences on Wikipedia. That some users don't like it is not a reason to censor it. Jeppiz (talk) 10:08, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tag team edit warring is still edit warring. I made a mistake in reading Sandstein's reasons for removing the content. He is administrator so I took it seriously but I was just reviewing the discussions when you started personalizing this, Jeppiz. When I see an involved editor calling other contributors "trolls" who don't count towards consensus (as buidhe did) I take it seriously. It's enough to justify my revert and request that you start an RfC for this major and (potentially) controversial change to the lede of a highly visible article. Without getting that stable consensus we all know it will be a source of persistent disruption for the project and that is not what I am about. You can put those accusations right back where you found them. Spudlace (talk) 10:29, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
People disagreeing with you is not edit warring.... (t · c) buidhe 10:45, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Spudlace:, your attitude is troubling. You accuse others of edit warring but do edit war yourself; you accuse others over their behaviour but get upset if your own identical behaviour is mentioned. In short, you seem to believe you WP:OWN this article and that it is for you alone to decide on the content and to comment on others. All those beliefs are very much mistaken; the same rules apply to you as much as to anyone else. Regarding the matter at hand, you still have not provided any argument refusing the many sources used here. Jeppiz (talk) 11:12, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All the changes were debated and discussed. The current version is the consensus version. It is Spudlace who should be opening a new discussion or RFC if s/he thinks it's a problem. But BRD and normal editing are how we got to the current lead. There was opposition to the initial change and the current version is a compromise. Srnec (talk) 00:50, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is so not the case. If you were to read the discussions above, you'd see that many legitimate arguments against and criticism of new sources are simply ignored when mentioned. The article is still horribly inaccurate and leaning towards a POV heavily.DriedGrape (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I saw lots of baseless complaints by meatpuppets recruited by off-wiki posts and news articles, not much in the way of policy based objections though. FDW777 (talk) 08:16, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Have the meatpuppetry accusations been discussed elsewhere or brought to the attention of uninvolved administrators? Is there evidence to support these accusations? Striking them would help uninvolved patrollers like me evaluate a consensus. Good faith editors would still be expected to follow the policies WP:CONSENSUS WP:ONUS and WP:NPA.
@Srnec: I don't see evidence that this is a consensus for the current version on the talk page. I gave weight to comments by Marshal Bagramyan, an editor who supports inclusion but noted that "I will, however, concede that we should not get head of the scholarship and that a case can be made to include mention of the ethnic cleansing campaigns in the second or third paragraphs (all things being equal)."
The only thing I've asked is to stop restoring a version that does not have consensus and use the talk page to arrive at a consensus version, including where in the lede the content should be included. The accusations of meatpuppetry further support the need for an RfC and uninvolved close, and that I used good judgment when I suggested that option. Spudlace (talk) 05:42, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone with eyes can see the herd of Turkish nationalist elephants in the room. Since there are no policy based objections to the content, there is no need for any RFC. There's nothing stopping you starting one. FDW777 (talk) 07:27, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm genuinely baffled as to what is going on here. At #Topic is on turkish news above Spudface now claims There is so much activity on the talk page, some disruptive and some from good faith contributors, that it's become difficult to navigate. The discussion at RSN, though poorly attended was about the recent newspaper articles, also the subject of this section. Obviously, we don't use them as WP:RS. I ask again, which RSN discussion? I also ask, specifically, which of the references you removed are "recent newspaper articles"? FDW777 (talk) 07:19, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
FDW777 We can discuss this further and provide you the links to the RSN discussion in the relevant section but please do not comment in unrelated sections. I didn't remove any references from newspaper articles. You also called me Spudface, in error. Spudlace (talk) 05:42, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Do not move my comments into a sub-section again. They are in direct reply to your edit warring over this issue, caused on your baseless assertion of unreliable references. FDW777 (talk) 07:27, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It was removed because there is no consensus about whether it is due weight in the current wording and placement in the first paragraph. And, what evidence do you have that other editors are "Turkish nationalists"? Spudlace (talk) 08:34, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What evidence? Is that a serious question? Do you really want me to point out every SPA or editor inexplicably returning after a significant break from editing the English Wikipedia, all of which coincidentally happened at the exact same time as the "call-to-arms" on Turkish websites? FDW777 (talk) 20:10, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I do want you to do that because those comments from meat puppets need to be struck. Not all of the editors who have objected to the placement in the first paragraph are meat puppets. User:MarshallBagramyan edits mostly about Armenia. I don't think he was responding to a 'call to arms' on Turkish websites when he said I will, however, concede that we should not get head of the scholarship and that a case can be made to include mention of the ethnic cleansing campaigns in the second or third paragraphs (all things being equal). There are similar remarks from other editors. The issue of due weight is important in respect to getting ahead of scholarship because we will probably have to correct it later. I don't see a consensus for this content should be in the first paragraph at this time. Spudlace (talk) 22:19, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Neutrality

Fails WP:NPOV: "An unbalanced or non-neutral article is one that does not fairly represent the balance of perspectives of high-quality, reliable secondary sources. A balanced article presents mainstream views as being mainstream, and minority views as being minority views. The personal views of Wikipedia editors or the public are irrelevant." And judging by the constant disruptive edits/warrings and discussions, it seems that the dispute will continue for a while. ภץאคгöร 22:06, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing actionable. Unless you present a proper rationale, it should be removed again. FDW777 (talk) 22:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely no reason has been provided for the tag. Tags are meant to direct attention to actionable problem; using them merely because one dislikes the article is just disruptive, especially when edit-warring over them. Jeppiz (talk) 22:27, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely. A general "the article isn't neutral" is insufficient, as there is no information for editors to identify which parts of the article are supposedly non-neutral. FDW777 (talk) 22:29, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section update proposal

I have updated historiography section. The war had Islamist characteristics but this is not mentioned in the lead. Can we update the lead in accordance with historiography section? What do you think? @FDW777: --V. E. (talk) 11:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Visnelma: I would somewhat like a stronger source first. Right now that paragraph is sourced to an interview with a scholar, I would much prefer us to cite one of the scholar's works, which would be peer reviewed and probably more accurate as it's subject to more review than an "in the moment" statement. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 21:43, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring to remove a paragraph

There has been a slow burning edit war to remove the paragraph about the term "Kurtuluş Savaşı" - I don't have an opinion one way or another but feel that it should be discussed here to prevent further disruption as it does appear to be sourced so I'm not sure I understand the implication that it's propaganda. BEACHIDICAE🌊 20:17, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gazete Duvar is a reliable source in Turkish. They claim that it is not mentioned in the source but it actually is:

Bu noktada ilk olarak “Kurtuluş Savaşı” kavramına dikkat çekmek istiyorum. Bence tırnak işareti ile kullansak da yanlış, çünkü bu kavram, Türkiye’yi emperyalist güçlerin kurbanı olarak gösteriyor. Azınlıklar da emperyalist güçlerin beşinci kolu olarak görülüyor. Bu tarih anlatımı, bugüne dek devam ediyor ve sadece İslamcı ve sağ görüşlü kesimlerce değil, solcular tarafından da benimseniyor. Oysa Birinci Dünya Savaşı, Osmanlı veya İttihatçılar tarafından sürülen bir yayılma savaşıydı, Orta Asya’ya kadar ilerlemeyi hedeflediler ve kaybettiler. Henüz 1918 sonbaharında Osmanlı ordusu Bakü’yü işgal etti ve bütün o bölgeye yayılmayı hedefliyordu. Mağlup olunca kendilerini mağdur ve kurban olarak gösterdiler. Savaş, gayrimüslim cemaatler için çok kötü sonuçlar doğurdu. Zaten “Kurtuluş Savaşı” İslami bir projeydi, milli müdafaa cemiyetleri, İslami örgütler olarak kuruldu. Kitaplarda öğrendiğimiz emperyalist güçlere karşı sürdürülen bir savaş olduğu ama fiilen Doğu’da Ermenilere ve Batı’da Rumlara karşı verilen bir savaştı.

Even a rough machine translation will prove that the text mentions it.--V. E. (talk) 20:23, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've since reverted again as it appears to push a narrative that I'm not seeing in the translation. BEACHIDICAE🌊 21:17, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The edit by Nyxaros was actually good if they did not omit the last sentence and changed "depicted themselves" to "appeared as". Except for those two points, I think it gave the text a better flow.--V. E. (talk) 21:29, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have any objection to you restoring the good parts of it, if you are so inclined. I don't read Turkish and I'll trust your judgement on this. PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:50, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I remember reading that before. Those type of articles are hard to find and requires excessive research. I am very surprised you were able to find one by google translation. Well Few clarification needed. "Zaten “Kurtuluş Savaşı” İslami bir projeydi". That directly translates into "In essence, " War of Independence" was an Islamic Project". The problem with such statement is that it contradicts what has happened after the war of independence. Secularization of the Turkish State. I read authors such as that before, I can see where his views and intentions come from. It is True some Turkish/Kurdish left is against "anti-Imperialist Nature" because the momvement was Nationalist-Bourgeoise. And it was Nationalist-Bourgeoise. But in order for nation to exist it had to fight against all of western imperialist participation/partition. I also noticed few people mentioned maybe the confusion on turkish side comes from the name. It does not. Considering Tready of Sevres, it was war of existence. Which also Went against Greek and Armenian(allied to west) interests in the Region. I posted two links before that directly verifies Lenins outlook an turkish war of independence. Which as a third party(not invested, socialist state) is reliable. But if that is not enough here is English article about Ghandis outlook to turkish war of independence. Basically the war itself was viewed as anti-british(west imperialist) by the third parties and gathered good amount of support by the subjects living under British Opression. They went as far as providing material help to fund the war effort. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/mahatma-gandhi-turkish-contours-of-indias-independence-movement/1599549. Also alternatively I would recommend this article: https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/20681 "Bu durumdaki bir ulusun, bağımsızlık savaşı verdikten sonra, emperyalist güçleri yenerek, bağımsız bir devlet olarak ortaya çıkabilmesi ve yaşamını bu şekilde sürdürebilmesi kuşkusuz ki, anti-emperyalist nitelikte bir harekettir.". I am pretty sure Visnelma or Yourself can translate this article with proper sources. It talks about deliberate stalling of Ottoman Industrial revolution and its external economic dependence to the European powers before the Independence War. Its pretty well cited. If not I can do it for you. My Turkish is not too good but I can try my best. All this being said once again we are cherry picking articles that suits a narrative. At this point I have to ask for permission to make edition to this article(waiting till protection status lifted is no longer feasible). The Strong POV in this article needs to be immediately balanced by other authors. Otherwise there is risk of turning this Wiki page into Propaganda tool. If wikipedia is not open sourced and restricted to few privileged user, let me know. Addition: I dislike using the term Turkophobia because because it involves victom mentality( I find victom mentality very hindering, prevents development). But if there is systematic discrimination against the Turkish side on what they can contribute, then the term turkcophobia to the privileged authors truly applies. Oyond (talk) 01:12, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 June 2021

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I would like to completely remove the following segment of the article due to the source beings used for alternative reasons and deviated out of the main purpose of the article. Also it contradicts few stuff that has been established( Partitioning, Occupation, Secularization of the Turkish republic)

"Preference of the term "Kurtuluş Savaşı" (lit. Liberation War) has been criticized as it causes Turkey to be portrayed as "a victim of imperialist forces". In this version of events, minority groups were a tool of those forces. This historiography has been accepted ever since not only by Turkish Islamists and the right-wing faction but also by the leftists. In fact, Ottoman Empire had joined the First World War with expansionist goals. The CUP government intended to expand the Empire into Central Asia. When they were defeated, however, they depicted themselves as victims. The result of the war was catastrophic for non-Muslim minorities. The Turkish War of Independence was an Islamist campaign conducted against Armenian minorities in the east and Greeks in the west. National Defence Committees were organizations founded with also Islamist characteristics.[64]"

Also moving forward I would like to have ability to edit. I personally think turkish side should have full access to this page at this point. If a certain POV is being pushed biasly then other side needs to have the ability to make changes.

I would like to rewrite this section with following articles:

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/mahatma-gandhi-turkish-contours-of-indias-independence-movement/1599549 ""The Hindus displayed great enthusiasm in raising the Angora Fund and they willingly subscribed to the fund. The Muslims had chosen to starve for some days in order to contribute to the fund meant for the safety of Turkey. These collected funds were sent to Constantinople [Istanbul] from time to time, where it was received by the representatives of Mustafa Kemal Pasha," he wrote. By 1922, 375,000 Turkish liras had gone from India to help Turkish coffers."


https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/20681

Gerçekten de o yıllarda, Türk Kurtuluş Savaşı'nın önemini kavrayabilen Doğu toplumları bu savaşta, ellerinden geldiği kadar Türklere destek olmaya çaba göstermişlerdir. Bu durum da Atatürk ve önderi olduğu savaşın anti-emperyalist amacını anlamak bakımından önemli bir kanıttır. 7. Türk Kurtuluş Savaşı'nın yapıldığı yıllarda sömürge konumunda olan ve daha sonra emperyalizme İcarşı başkaldıran bu toplumların önderleri de, Türk Kurtuluş Savaşı'nı anti-emperyalist bir savaş olarak kabul etmişler ve bu savaşın önderi olan Mustafa Kemal'i saygıyla selamlamışlardı. Bu önderlerin ve temsilcisi oldukları örgütlerin görüşlerine kısaca değinmekte yarar vardır. Örneğin; Hint bağımsızlık hareketinin önderi Mahatma Gandi başkanlığında, Ahmetabad'ta toplanan Hindistan Ulusal Kongresi, 27 Aralık 1921'de - Sakarya Utkusu sonrasında- şöyle bir karar almıştı: "Mustafa Kemal Paşa ve Türkleri büyük başarılarından dolayı kutlar, Hint halkının sevgilerini sunar, Türkiye'nin bağımsızlığının korunması konusunda yardımlarını sürdüreceğini belirtir."31

Hint Meclis Başkanı S ir Abdürrahim ise, Atatürk'ün Doğu dünyası için öneminden söz ederken şunları söylüyordu: "O, uğraşlanyla, yalnız Türkiye'ye değil, bütün Doğu dünyasına kurtuluş yolunu göstermiştir. O tarih büyüğünün, O Türk kahramanının, O Doğu'nun kurtuluş ve uygarlık önderinin eserlerini her zaman sevgi ve saygıyla anacağız."32 Yine Hint Parlamento Kurulu Başkanı Madam Sucheta Kripalani de Atatürk ile ilgili görüşlerini şöyle dile getirmişti: "Atatürk, yalnız Türk Ulusu'nun değil, özgürlüğü uğrunda savaşan bütün ulusların önderiydi. O'nun direktifleri altında siz bağımsızlığınıza kavuştunuz. Biz de o yoldan yürüyerek özgürlüğümüze kavuştuk."33 Pakistan özgürlük hareketinin önderi ve bağımsız Pakistan'ın kurucusu M. Ali Cinnah da, Atatürk için aşağıdaki değerlendirmeyi yapmış ve; "O, Türkiye'yi kurmakla bütün dünya uluslanna Müslümanlann seslerini duyuracak kudrette olduğunu kanıtladı. Kemal Atatürk'ün ölümüyle, Müslüman dünyası en büyük kahramanını kaybetmiştir. Atatürk gibi bir önder önlerinde bir ilham kaynağı olarak dikildiği halde, Hint Müslümanları bugünkü durumlarına hâlâ razı olacaklar mı?"34 

diye sormuştu.

Türk Kurtuluş Savaşı yıllarında, bir Fransız sömürgesi olan Tunus'un Devlet Başkanı Habib Burgiba da, o dönemde bütün Tunuslu gençlerin, bu savaşa ve Atatürk'e büyük bir hayranlık duyduklarını ve kendilerinin de böyle bir önderin özlemiyle yanıp tutuştuklarını vurguladıktan sonra şöyle söylemişti: "Mustafa Kemal'in kişiliği, halk kitlelerinin ayaklanması ve halk mücadelelerinin ölçüsü olmuştur. Bu mücadeleler O'nun ölümünden sonra gelişmiş, Doğu ve Batı bloklarının arasındaki üçüncü dünyaya da geçmiş ve onları sömürge baskısından kurtarmıştır."35 Yine o yıllarda, İngiliz sömürgesiyken bağımsızlığına kavuşan Afganistan Kralı Amanullah Han da, Atatürk'ü ziyaret eden ve O'na çok büyük bir hayranlık duyan bir Doğu ulusunun yöneticisi olarak Atatürk için; "O büyük insan yalnız Türkiye için değil, bütün Doğu ulusları için de en büyük önderdi."3

Each section talks about support Turkish War of Independence has from all the subjects under colonial powers. I can translate more here if you wish.


http://kutuphane.halkcephesi.net/Yazarlarold/Erdogan%20Ahmet/lenin%20National%20liberation%20war%20turkish.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/nov/21.htm

The Aggression, which lead to Turkey occupying Armenia was actualy initiated by the Armenian Attack due to Armenian Nationalist tendencies of Dashnaks:

'On August 14, Lenin meeting with the Turkish delegates emphasized that the “Soviet Governments policy is to render assistance to the oppressed people of the east” . During the course of the Soviet-Turkish talks from late July to August 24, 1920, a treaty of friendship treaty was drafted. The disagreement came about on the question of establishing a border line between Turkey and Armenia. Turkey’s foreign minister, Bekir Sami, who favored closer relations with Britain, deliberately mislead the Ankara government, and tries to set the leaders against the Soviet republic. Expectedly so, as Lenin points out; “the Entente diplomats provoked Dashnak Armenia's attack on Turkey. The Dashnak nationalist party, then in power in Armenia (1918-20), pursued an aggressive policy with regard to Turkey and aimed at establishing a "Greater Armenia" that would include nearly half of Asia Minor. On September 24, 1920 the Dashnak government began hostilities against Turkey, but five days later the Turkish troops checked the Dashnak offensive and, in a counter-offensive lasting from September to November occupied Sarykamysh, Kars and Alexandropol. The Turkish Government decided to take advantage of the adventurist Dashnak policy and occupy the whole of Armenia.””” (Lenin, our foreign and domestic position)'

To be honest at this point this is more of a test against wikipedias bias's, and if certain circles are being promoted to say what they want without any challenge then this project is doomed to fail. Even deleting an section by saying "bias source that deviates from what the original article is about" is itself a challenge and should be allowed. Oyond (talk) 17:10, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done, the request must be of the form "please change X to Y"Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:10, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

X to y:Deletion of that segment. Addition with new sources. Are you saying you would like to know what the change might look like in writen form. Others dont have to justify what they wrote after the fact its writen. Oyond (talk) 18:15, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to begin with a phrase which you want to have added or adapted. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:17, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting, doable. Instead of that section I highlighted(very poorly written tbh, with alternative intention) non western outlook that also supplements "ortodox" view can be added for starters. But that raises a serious question on my part. Under what circumstances does the person have free ability to change this article without having to pre-emptively write x to y? Again these are serious questions that needs to be asked at this point. Oyond (talk) 18:29, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
One must start with reliable sources. Unfortunately, those cited above do not appear to be reliable. aa.com.tr is a news agency, not reliable for historical topics. The third and fourth (marxists.org) sources are dodgy websites and definitely not reliable for this topic. (t · c) buidhe 18:40, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Buidhe. Once again I have to point out the double standard I been talking about. Preference of the term "Kurtuluş Savaşı" (lit. Liberation War) has been criticized as it causes Turkey to be portrayed as "a victim of imperialist forces". In this version of events, minority groups were a tool of those forces. This historiography has been accepted ever since not only by Turkish Islamists and the right-wing faction but also by the leftists. In fact, Ottoman Empire had joined the First World War with expansionist goals. The CUP government intended to expand the Empire into Central Asia. When they were defeated, however, they depicted themselves as victims. The result of the war was catastrophic for non-Muslim minorities. The Turkish War of Independence was an Islamist campaign conducted against Armenian minorities in the east and Greeks in the west. National Defence Committees were organizations founded with also Islamist characteristics.[64] itself is sourced from similar source as aa.com.tr. But because it plays into a narritive that is promoted, it is accepted by the current circle. Second, would you consider Lenins own writing from Marxist.org a dogy site? My main point of writing this was to expose intentions here, what gets free pass and what doesn't. I didnt expect to be able to modify this article, would have been great if i could but I have realistic expectations :) Oyond (talk) 18:50, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Lenin's own writing is not a reliable source. Marxists.org does host some primary sources on Marxist related topics and can be used as an external link where relevant, but secondary sources should be used to source content. All the sources I cited in this article are scholarly sources, mostly peer-reviewed. (t · c) buidhe 18:58, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Buidhe but your actions contradict your words. The following suggestion and addition has your approval :This news article here[11] states that movements of other factions in the war should not be considered as a revolt but rather a civil war. You can read the article for detailed information.--V. E. (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2021 (UTC)".It seams using news article or sources becomes problematic when it doesnt apply to the narritive being promoted. I'll let this be my final comment here. I wanted some confirmation of my suspicions, and i wanted it to remain here for others to see going forward. This project is doomed to fail, which is fine. Overall it has proven to be very usefull and insightfull tbh. Maybe I'll come back later to see final product of this circles pov. Edit: I'll leave it to more experienced turkish users to archive/cross-examine and report the problems I meantioned to the higher authorities.Oyond (talk) 19:12, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The source defended is an excerpt from an interview held in 2021. such nonsense will even be enough to question the reliability of the sources you have added before. Gündoğan, Kazım (4 Haziran 2021). "Osmanlı ve Türkiye'de" . gazeteduvar (Türkçe) . Erişim tarihi: 8 Haziran 2021

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Only Armenian sources are cited in the article.

In general, many sources in the article consist of Armenian sources.This can be easily proven with a simple google search. very simply, you have turned a war of national struggle into an armenian propaganda page.even a comment in an interview is cited as a source. Using such sources makes wikipedia notorious. 90% of the sources cited for ethnic cleansing are Armenian sources. There are 2 editors who use Wikipedia for their own propaganda purposes. and as defense, the Armenian resources are not unsafe resources. Being biased doesn't mean it's unsafe. is called.If you have only one thought for a person, it does not mean that that thought is true.put an end to this extremely funny situation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.245.194.181 (talk) 01:49, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not only Armenian, they use every anti-Turkish source for it and consider "reliable", that even includes some news websites, such as gazeteduvar or agos. Could someone (except the user who gave these as "reliable source") explain us why they are reliable?--Isvind (talk) 15:49, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

certain people continue to carry out black propaganda on this page. this is wikipedia.I hope wikipedia management will take care of this situation.punishes those responsible for this propaganda.

Caesar's Dictatorship

The Roman Senate extended his term again and again, until he was a dictator for life! (It actually funnily ended up a shorter term, as he was assassinated the following year). And in this article, the protection gets extended again and again. First framed as a "Hitler's war", fought for a campaign of ethnic cleansing, then CUP-CHP association, and now also the framing of Islamism!

I am not going to write another wall of text criticizing all of these, but I will however kindly ask the people who have the permission to edit add the death toll of 640.000 Turkish civilians at the Western Front in the infobox.

McCarthy, Justin (1995) Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims 1821-1922 Darwin Press, ISBN 9780878500949, Archived 26 May 2013 from its source, accessed 21 May 2011.

Karpat, Kemal H. (1997). "Book Reviews: Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922 by Justin McCarthy". The International Migration Review. Sage Publications, Inc. 31 (2): 472. doi:10.2307/2547230. "The Greek invasion of western Anatolia from 1919 to 1922 caused the death of approximately 640,000 Muslims and produced 860,000 refugees ..."

Ergene, Boğaç A. (1997). "Book Reviews: Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922 by Justin McCarthy". Turkish Studies Association Bulletin. Indiana University Press. 21 (2): 63. JSTOR 43385387. From 1919 to 1922, about 640,000 Muslims died in the region."

These sources were removed by the user Buidhe in this 9 May 2021 revision.

Book reviews strengthen the credibility of a source, and I see no reason for removal of them; unless one is trying to make the source look uncredible. Also checking the past arguments on this at the talk page, it looks like McCarthy was again discredited via a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, whereas my complaints of the same reason for similar "nationalist" 5 year old sources from the Greek/Armenian POV has been ignored with the same reasoning of "You're doing WP:IDONTLIKEIT." Is there clearly not a double standard here? ed (talk) 07:22, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest quickly reading the Justin McCarthy (American historian) article, first of all. FDW777 (talk) 07:25, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am ok with addition just to balance the pro armenian POV. Whole he denied "genocide" is weak argument. We are talking about the death tolls, and death tolls of a war on the turkish side is underrepresented in western sources. It makes sense for Turkish death tolls to be under represented, considering the nature of the war. Actually this is similar to issue I had. I wanted to add news article as resource...but was denied by buidhe because its news article. Meanwhile good percent of histography section is written by 2 news articles only. --Oyond (talk) 16:03, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ethnic cleansing is not "pro armenian POV", but simple historical fact. Justin McCarthy does not a reputation for fact checking and accuracy, in fact the polar opposite. FDW777 (talk) 17:05, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. I think book reviews are posted by Emre Regarding article already. That being said this actually got my interest I am going to review death tolls in turkish sources. I want to see what they talk about and if they can be incorporated into this project.--Oyond (talk) 17:21, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Rummel allowed as source when he actually has no intensicve work on this period while someone who studied the period and is often cited by other respected academians ? Rummel for example says 500k "Central Asian Turks" were killed by the Russians just because Toynbee mentioned it the number without studieing it. ( Most put it around 100k-200k today) He is allowed as source but McCarthy Not? Atabegli (talk) 00:13, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Impact on Nazi Germany

I removed this section as I believe it's WP:UNDUE, and per WP:BRD I'll expand on my thoughts here. Stefan Ihrig specialises on the comparison of the Turkish nationalist movement and the Nazis, so of course he has written at length about all aspects of how this period in Turkish history was perceived in Germany. That being said, some of that content will have trickled down to more mainstream works and some will be too niche for our mainstream articles such as this one. The key factor here would be whether more general histories of Nazi Germany discuss the Turkish War of Independence as a source of inspiration in the way that the Armenian Genocide is discussed, or vice versa, whether texts on the impact of the Turkish War of Independence discuss the Nazis as an important part of the legacy. The answer AFAIK is no, and basing an entire section just on Ihrig's work is certainly UNDUE for me. Furthermore, Ihrig's chapter on this is actually more of an analysis of the reception of the Turkish War of Independence in the early interbellum German press as an exemplifier of the sort of intellectual fertile ground that allowed the rise of the Nazis, so having an entire section titled "Impact on Nazis" is both uncalled for and unnecessarily sensationalistic. --GGT (talk) 23:19, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree on that. The Turkish War of Independence was long before the Nazis came into power. If the war was an inspiration for the Nazis, then it should go to the article of the NAZIS. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:34, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ihrig's work is not just about the German press' attitude. Ihrig (p. 68) states that Turkish War of Independence had a more definite impact on Beer Hall Putsch than Mussolini's March on Rome. Hitler referenced Atatürk and his nationalistic movement between 1919 and 1923 in his trial (Ihrig, p. 97). Hitler also said he "was copying Atatürk" by abolishing Treaty of Versailles just like Atatürk abolished Treaty of Serves (Ihrig, p. 115). So this war did definitely had a direct influence on Nazis.--V. E. (talk) 00:11, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think a mention is definitely warranted as part of overall aftermath/legacy information, but maybe not a dedicated section. (t · c) buidhe 00:24, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is not even some kind of fringe theory. This article discusses impact of Atatürk and his movement (İstiklal Savaşı is used in the article) on Nazi authors even before Ihrig; and it states that there are two other works written on this topic: "Alman Basınında Atatürk ve Türkiye Cumhuriyeti 1910–1944", and "Alman Basınında Milli Mücadele ve Mustafa Kemal Paşa (1919–1923)". I should remind that German press' take on this is important for us to understand Germans' and Nazis' view on the war.--V. E. (talk) 00:33, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Of course Ihrig makes a direct link to the Nazis, I'm not refuting that, I'm saying that the chapter's focus is not on that. By and large in that chapter, Ihrig analyses how the war was followed in the early interbellum German public discourse and how it fed into the resentment with the Treaty of Versailles. Cherry-picking the most sensationalistic bits from a scholarly work is hardly good encyclopedia-building, and frankly borders on disruption as it takes a very nuanced discussion to then unpick that. The other sources you've cited are either about general German press coverage of Turkey in that history or mention the War of Independence only briefly. And again, no one is saying that this is a fringe theory, please understand the different between something being niche and something being a fringe theory. This is just niche, you won't find major works on the development of Nazism discussing how it was influenced by the Turkish War of Independence or major works on this period discussing how this war impacted the Nazi imagination. What we do need here is generally a section on how the war was received in the Western public discourse. Within that, I'm fine with a couple of sentences at most to discuss German wartime reporting regarding the comparison to the Treaty of Versailles, and perhaps a very brief reference to the Nazis. I still do have my reservations with the latter though, for the reasons previously explained. --GGT (talk) 02:30, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ihrig clearly states Nazis were more interested in the TWoI compared to other German nationalists. He also points out that media reporting on twoi stopped abruptly after the failed coup. Ihrig makes direct links in other chapters too, the relationship between Nazis and twoi is not limited to a specific chapter. We see this when he makes references to Atatürk and his movement on the trial. Furthermore this book is cited more than 100 times and also supported by review articles. So, calling it niche would be wrong which afaik is not a term that belongs to wikipedia. (I will be citing the reviews soon.)--V. E. (talk) 02:59, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ihrig's book concludes that, based on this review of the book by Dr. H. Seçkin ÇELİK of the Hacettepe University:
" Ihrig points out the problems related to Nazis’ perceptions about Atatürk and Turkey at the conclusion part. For example, he writes in a part as this: “This vision was highly selective and accentuated only what the authors and the Third Reich want to see; it was also extremely settled and rigid, and by 1933 it had turned to stone. Neither Turkish “reality” since 1919 nor any developments in contemporary Turkey were to change this petrified simulacrum of Turkey.”55 According to the author, the policy of Turkey during the Second World War played a role on the continuing of this image. As the foreign policy of Turkey during Second World War has been adequately explained, I want to concentrate on the other points in the conclusion.
First of all, the Nazi image related to Turkey and Atatürk is selective and based on distortions from beginning to end, so it would not be correct to argue that one-time judgments remain same despite changing Turkey. Secondly, from the beginning of the book, the author gave very limited information about the political regime established in Turkey, the objectives of Turkey, the vision of Atatürk, and he has a vague approach about whether the perceptions of the Nazis were real or not. In short, the author did not exactly show distortions nor refrain from giving his own knowledge and interpretations of Kemalism. The author objected to the ones claiming Kemalism is not fascism; but it is “an educational dictatorship”.56 However, he stated in his study that he would not examine whether Kemalism was fascism or not, and here he states his own comments about the relationship between Kemalism and fascism. This contradictory attitude of him is a good example of that neither he avoids of using his own comments and knowledge about Kemalism nor he exactly shows the distortions. As a result, it is a fact that Nazis distorted Atatürk and Kemalism in terms of their own interest, but the author presents this information as well as including the Armenian Question/ “the Armenian Genocide” and the claims that are Turkey’s foreign policy being pro-German. While doing this, he both relies on the insufficient literature review on the true nature of Kemalism and he has an ambiguous attitude according to the distortions of Nazis about Atatürk and Kemalism. And this is a preference that makes it more difficult for readers to understand the subject properly. At this point, the study is not persuasive in terms of the necessary objectivity in scientific work as it also carries serious methodological and analytical problems. "
This review should do the job. This article in Turkish too, it focuses on the Nazi perception of races and the Turkish&Middle Eastern peoples and concludes that the "aryanship" granted to them was for diplomatic reasons, not because Hitler was a "big fan of blue-eyed blonde aryan Atatürk"! Also this quote by hitler in regards to the negotiations with Sir Wilson who was sent by the PM Chamberlain to achieve a "peaceful solution" about German claims on the Sudets, reads: "Germany was treated like [n-racial slur here]! One would not dare treat even the Turks like that!" (Hitler to Wilson, 26 Sept 1938, from Faber, "Munich," Chapter 13)
It also looks like Ihrig can't distinguish the national socialism from fascism. By the way, I must also ask why my request above of the adding of the death toll of 640.000 Turkish people on the Western front was ignored. A news website can be used as a source, Ihrig's book can also; why can McCarthy's book not? ed (talk) 07:12, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Cherrypicking one review is unhelpful when the book's reception was in fact mostly favorable. A more representative example is Erik-Jan Zürcher's review in Holocaust and Genocide Studies: "In this extremely interesting and well-researched book, Stefan Ihrig shows that

neither Heimatland nor Adolf Hitler was exceptional: the entire nationalist right followed events in postwar Turkey and expressed admiration for the nationalists and their leader... the papers on the whole were rather well informed on the situation in Turkey and their judgement was often accurate—sometimes more accurate than Ihrig gives them credit for... Among the things considered admirable about Turkey was its “national purification”: the Armenian Genocide and the expulsion of the Greeks... It is clear that for the German Right the World War I Committee of Union and Progress and the Kemalists afterwards were part of the same movement, and that the population exchange agreed in Lausanne in 1923 reflected the same Entente aggression that had pushed Turkey to the earlier Armenian killings. This legacy enhanced the Kemalists’ credentials in Nazi eyes. Ihrig’s most important, well supported, and surprising conclusion is that the Kemalist movement in Turkey, rather than the Fascist movement in Italy, formed the most important inspiration for the early National Socialists in Germany."

Anyway, whether German perceptions are accurate (perhaps more accurate than you think) is irrelevant to the question of whether they are covered in reliable sources (certainly) and suitable for inclusion in this article (I believe so). (t · c) buidhe 07:46, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I finished reading the chapter of the book on Turkish War of Independence. To Be honest it mostly talks about replicating the success as in militaristic sense. That makes sence...As related to article i shared before, any movement that went against the England and France used it as inspiration point. Mostly people under british/france colonies though. It is a success story afterall, and even Ihrig agrees the Anti-Imperialist nature of the war. I In case of Nazis, they used it more as propaganda. This book review concludes(they quote Ihrig’s own word, I am going to take their word for it. Correct me if they are wrong) the following: "Some pro-government voices have been getting very excited about Ihrig’s book, saying it proves the fascist tendencies in elements of the Turkish Republic's founding ideology. That may not be entirely wrong, but it misses the point: The book is fundamentally about German perception, not Turkish reality. Ihrig repeatedly emphasizes that the Nazi vision of Atatürk and Kemalist Turkey was highly selective and unresponsive to actual developments in the country, with the Nazis simply accentuating whatever they wanted to see. Kemalism may well have contained elements that foreshadowed fascism, but the Nazi fascination with Atatürk and Turkey does not in itself prove that Kemalism was fascist. “It only illustrates,” Ihrig suggests, “how selective and predetermined the Nazi vision of Turkey was and … how ambiguous the Kemalist project still was, that it could ‘accommodate’ such perceptions.”. Review can be found here:https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/opinion/william-armstrong/ataturk-in-the-nazi-imagination-75743. Even in the first chapter author talks about Nazis completely omiting Soviet Turkish Allience, because it did not suit their needs. So basically Nazis were cherry picking what they want to share to public about Turkish Independence war. To be honest Maybe this book is better suited for something that talks about Nazi Propaganda Methodologies. Maybe a section on how the war was received in the Western/East public discourse is a good idea like EG said though. A section like that is more productive. This alone, not so much. --Oyond (talk) 14:00, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Unrelevant to the discussion

buidhe  : First of all, we will correct the articles that vinselma added with anti-Turkish sources. We shared the evidence we have with Wikipedia. later, we will review your preconceived decisions that you have agreed with vinselma, thank you.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 June 2021

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 


Luisao Araujo (talk) 08:03, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Treaty of Sevres , Izmir/Smyrna (in articles of 65-83) and Eastern Thrace were given to Greece (in article 84), while Rhodes and the 12 Islands were left to Italy (in article 122). According to this Treaty, Anatolia does not have an influence zone given to Italy. And also France. http://filestore.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pdfs/large/cab-24-95.pdf Cabinet Papers 24 / 95 page. 421 (or fourth meeting page 31)

France and England (with the exception of Syria and Iraq) say that there should be no territorial division in Anatolia.

Italy was not for the purpose of occupying to bring 10,000 soldiers to the Anadolia. Italy came to prevent Greece from growing towards Anatolia. And the Turkish Greek war has completely supported the Turks. Even the smallest Turkish-Italian battle was not experienced at this time.

The map on this page is incorrect. I'm showing the right. I prove it. I'm putting the resources. I also say that you can also read the Treaty. No one is listening to me. The only evidence of Anatolia is given to Italy is the 1916 treaty. That was a project and never applied. Revolutionized in Russia. The principles of Wilson were published and land demands are blocked. In addition, the British promised that Indians will not touch the Turks in 1918. In this way, they obtained 1.160,000 soldiers. They won the war in this way. There were many Muslims in India.


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Treaty_of_Sèvres_1920_-_English.png

The right map is here. I put this on the Sevres Treaty page. There is no one with Turkish history information there? There is no one that has read the treaty there?Luisao Araujo (talk) 08:03, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What you said is not true. Italy's Istanbul occupation commissioner, Karlo Sforza, was always pro-Turkish. He did not want the expansion of Greece. Italy actually wanted land in Anatolia. However, England, France and America opposed it. And so he knew he would never be able to do that. The main reason for Italy to send troops to Anatolia was that Greece would land troops. He also aimed to settle his own people in Antalya in the future if he could find the opportunity. However, this was not the 1st goal, but the 2nd goal. Maybe he thought things would change over time.

The only time Italy and Greece got closer was during the time of Tommaso Tittoni. Because the administration in Italy had changed. Tittoni, who took office in June 1919 after the invasion, made an agreement with Venizelos. But he could only stay on duty for 5 months. When Sforza became foreign minister, he immediately condemned Tittoni and this treaty. And again, as before, they withdrew all their support to Greece and turned to a pro-Turkish policy.

Every piece of information in the article you sent confirms my words. I recommend that you read it carefully.

"The territory between Kusadasi and Antalya was recognized as an Italian economic area of ​​penetration." Can you show me which article of this agreement is written? Or does it mean 12 islands and Rhodes?

During the Turkish-Greek war, Italy always secretly supported the Turks. In December 1920, upon the return of the former King of Greece, Constantine, France and Italy, using this as an excuse, openly declared that they would support the Turks against Greece. Because Constantine was the son-in-law of the German king. And he was France's most important enemy after Wilhelm.

Later, public demonstrations and internal opposition broke out in Italy for economic reasons. Revolt movements started in Albania as well. That's why Italy had to withdraw its soldiers here and send them to Tripoli.

As a result, Antalya or Konya was not given to Italy as a zone of economic influence in the Treaty of Sevres. According to the treaty, the capitulations would continue. The given territory is 12 islands.Luisao Araujo (talk) 09:04, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, The zones of influence you mentioned in the Venizelos-Tittoni treaty are not found in the Sevres treaty. If you have it, you have to show it. Moreover, Italy canceled the Tittoni venizelos agreement. This treaty was annulled in 1919 after Tittoni left office. It was just a project and it had no validity.

I wrote it as zone of straits on my map. This area is not an international zona. An area owned by the Turkish government, but demilitarized, and the passage of ships in the Straits is provided by an international straits commission. Also, according to this treaty, Istanbul would continue to be the capital of Turkey.The map you showed is completely wrong. Samsun was not left to Armenia. The border was passing near Tirebolu.

On the map in the book you mentioned, it is written that Anatolia was shared according to the Treaty of Sevres. On page 341. However, he does not cite any source for this. I am asking you. In which article is this sharing written in the Treaty of Sevres?

Are you sure you read the treaty?Luisao Araujo (talk) 10:21, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a separate international zona. It is an international zona owned by the Turkish government. Because here, apart from the government, there is a straits commission.

The question I asked you is, in which article of which treaty these zonas of influence are written. I just want you to show me one piece of evidence. And I do not accept any information without evidence. My advice to you is that you should not interpret the treaty in your own way. Also, you shouldn't show me unsourced information. This is also true for information whose source is wrong.

If you can prove it, I will gladly accept it.Luisao Araujo (talk) 11:01, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please See. Even the map in Greek history is more accurate than the map in this article.

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Συνθήκη_των_Σεβρών_(Ελλάς_-_Τουρκία)#/media/Αρχείο:Treaty_sevres_otoman_el.jpg

Luisao Araujo (talk) 11:14, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the ((edit extended-protected)) template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:17, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 July 2021

176.41.28.171 (talk) 18:36, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It says the Turkish nationalist movement carried out massacres and deportations in order to eliminate native Christian populations—a continuation of the Armenian genocide and other ethnic cleansing operations during World War I.[59] These campaigns resulted in the creation of the Republic of Turkey. That is the most racisting thing I've ever heard. The one who makes this mistake should be banned from Wikipedia. I thought this website was the source of the neutral and pure information?

You thought wrong. Wikipedia makes no claims as to if the information here is true, see WP:TRUTH. Only you can decide what is true for you. Wikipedia summarizes what independent reliable sources state about a topic. If sources are not being summarized accurately, please detail the specific errors and corrections desired. If you don't like what the sources say, you will need to take that up with them. 331dot (talk) 18:49, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia also does not claim to be free of bias; any bias in sources will be reflected in Wikipedia. Sources are presented to readers so they can evaluate and judge them for themselves. 331dot (talk) 18:50, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 August 2021

I request that the map of the Treaty of Sevres, which was created by consensus on the Treaty of Sevres page, be used on this page as well. Luisao Araujo (talk) 03:00, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now There are different levels on concencus. The concencus you had was on the talk page of Treaty of Serves. The current concencus on this talk page shows that the zones of influence should be included and Straits be labelled as "international zone" on the map. Please establish a concencus on this talk page.--V. E. (talk) 05:48, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What would you say to that?

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Συνθήκη_των_Σεβρών_(Ελλάς_-_Τουρκία)#/media/Αρχείο:Treaty_sevres_otoman_el.jpg

Luisao Araujo (talk) 05:52, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Therefore, you can't cite an image you found on Wikipedia to support your argument since it is not reliable.--V. E. (talk) 05:59, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe this might interest you.

https://ia801308.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/6/items/literarydigestat00upde_0/literarydigestat00upde_0_jp2.zip&file=literarydigestat00upde_0_jp2/literarydigestat00upde_0_0035.jp2&id=literarydigestat00upde_0&scale=2&rotate=0

This is an official sourced publication.

Luisao Araujo (talk) 06:03, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 August 2021

NOT DONE
You should show exactly what part of the article you want to have changed. Then also, the Turkish War of Independence started in 1919. Maybe that's why an estimate which ranges between 1914 and 1922 is not included.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Casualties of Turkish Civilians in Western Anatolia. "When it comes to Muslims population loss, the best estimates are those of McCarthy, who argues for an estimated population loss of 1,246,068 Muslims between 1914 and 1922 in Anatolia, and arbitrarily ascribes 640,000 of those as occurring in the Greek and British zones of operation in 1919–1922" Konstanos Travis has done works of the period 1919-1922, as he has done several researches and wrote a book about the Greco-Turkish War. see here Source: The Turkish War of Independence: A Military History, 1919-1923, Chapter: Appendix A: Casualties by Professor Konstantinos Travlos, page: 352-353, Publisher:ABC-CLIO, LLC, 2021, ISBN:1440878412

Genocide Historians like Donald W. Bleacher, Donald Bloxham also cite his work when it comes to muslims/Turkish losses. So why is his estimates not added?????? Atabegli (talk) 11:51, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The estimate in the source for the time line 1919-1922 is given as 640k as you can see. The loss of total Population by comparing the censuses of pre WW 1 and after thr greco-turkish war census shows a population loss of 1.25 (without eastern Thrace).The region saw no fighting in 1914-1918. The Chapter also give estimates for Greek losses, very different from Rummels estimates. Might be added too. Atabegli (talk) 16:22, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen the Article Greco-Turkish war and there the deadly casualties amounted to ca. 11'000. Maybe try to add some info there as that article is editable for you. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 16:50, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article says that Turks were happy to be freed from the Turkish Goverment by Greeks which is very bizarre. I've edited it with source. ps: I think the 11,000 is from Rummel, when he actually says "more than 11,000". We know from British, French sources of that time that hundread thousands of Turks were displaced by the Greek army, the head of the French community in Izmir , Elizear Guiffrey, estimates atleast 150,000 dead and 150,000 deported in 1922. Alone in one town the muslims population dropped from 30-40k to 3k. Atabegli (talk) 15:17, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So why is it not added? Atabegli (talk) 18:21, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Totally biased

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


This war is not a religious war. By typing "elimination of Christians" it's being pulled in completely different directions. Turkish losses are completely ignored. [1] This site is supposed to be unbiased, but biased and completely defamatory articles are acceptable. "Remaining elements of the Committee of Union and Progress" sentence is a biased and malevolent point of view for Mustafa Kemal, who did not continue the ideas of the "Committee of Union and Progress" during the War of Independence. Sivas Congress is a proof of this. [2] But who cares right ? Someone realized that he could spread his political views here. After all, he is a high-ranking person who tries to impose his own distorted political view, and unfortunately he does. Here, for some reason, 1-2 people have been appointed as experts, whatever they write or change is accepted. It is obvious that he can make all kinds of ridiculous changes when he reaches high ranks in some way. How reliable could this site be, where anyone can write anyway...İnsanayıdomuz (talk) 16:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_during_the_Ottoman_contraction
  2. ^ http://www.ait.hacettepe.edu.tr/egitim/ait203204/I9.pdf
İnsanayıdomuz Yes, anyone may edit this encyclopedia, as long as they are willing to collaborate with others and summarizes what independent reliable sources. You are free to take that as you wish and believe or not believe what you read here. If you are interested in collaboration, please detail the specific errors in how sources are summarized or offer additional independent reliable sources.
Wikipedia does not claim to be unbiased. Any bias in sources will be reflected in Wikipedia. Wikipedia presents the sources to readers so they can evaluate and judge them for themselves as to bias. Please see WP:TRUTH. 331dot (talk) 19:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've already pointed out certain errors and provided the source. Is this an automated message? İnsanayıdomuz (talk) 10:18, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
İnsanayıdomuz I am a human writing messages. You offer a Wikipedia article as a source, but Wikipedia is not a reliable source. I'm not entirely clear on why the second source is being offered. Your concerns seem to be more general and not pointing out specific errors in how independent reliable sources are being summarized. That sources don't say what you think they should say is not a reason to exclude them; please offer your own sources that say what you think they should say, so all sources can be given due weight. 331dot (talk) 10:58, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
General? really ? Could you please explain the general to me? "elimination of Christians" is not an error ? "Turkish losses are completely ignored." is not an error ? How can I write more specifically so you can understand?

Will it be reliable if I write the sources on that page collectively here? [1] Immigration and asylum : from 1900 to the present "Turkish War of Independence" page says; "30,000+ buildings and 250+ villages burnt to the ground by the Greek military and Greek/Armenian rebels." But only 15,000+ Turkish civilians killed in the Western Front ? What a reliable source(!)... I do not know foreign authors and books, so I shared in Turkish. İnsanayıdomuz (talk) 13:21, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://archive.org/details/immigrationasylu00matt/page/437

The whole Wikipedia is biased they will accept terror-connected "news agencies"(for example ANF) but no they will not accept historians like McCarthy, Justin, or actual newspapers. But some how they will accept anf and forged documents like The Memoirs of Naim Bey. As always they're biased they're only accepting the ones who accept Armenian claims. ZeusAmmon1 (talk) 12:51, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 September 2021

This page is edited by a Greek Nationalist and biased. It has to get fixed by someone more objective. Alihanygt (talk) 07:06, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:25, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic Cleansing in the First Sentence (Edited on 3.9.21)

This issue has been discussed. There is no concensus among editors whether the "purpose" of the war was ethnic cleansing. Furthermore, ethnic cleansing is mentioned in the lede by the third sentence. Therefore, MOS:INTRO and MOS:LEADREL are not sufficient reasons for this wording to be added to the first sentence. Extensive discussions have been made among good faith editors without reaching a concensus on the issue (please see other topics on the talk page). Therefore, please remove the wording "ethnic cleansing" from the first sentence of the lede.Megalomanda138 (talk) 07:28, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The mentions of ethnic cleansing were removed approx. 2-3 months ago because there was no such section in the body of the article. According to MOS:LEAD "Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article.” I restored it since the "ethnic cleansing" section has been expanded since then. I don't see the problem with it. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 14:24, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe:@331dot:@SilentResident:
Sorry for pinging, but it looks like no one is replying. I see that you've participated in this page before, so what are your thoughts on this? Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 16:53, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, I would like to remind you that ethnic cleansing is mentioned in the lead. It appears in the third sentence of the lead. Therefore, MOS:LEAD cannot be the main reason for this addition to the first sentence. The info is already there in the lead. Hence, there are no concensus among the good faith editors that one of the purposes for TWoI was ethnic cleansing; yet adding the wording ethnic cleansing in the first sentence of the lead in the way it was done would mean that TWoI had this purpose (an issue on which, I would like to reiterate, there are no consensus).Megalomanda138 (talk) 17:29, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It was already there but it got removed for violating MOS:LEADREL. Presently, it meets the requirements of MOS:LEADREL so I restored it. It wasn't removed because “there are no concensus among the good faith editors that one of the purposes for TWoI was ethnic cleansing” as you said. See here: [12] Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 17:46, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The third sentence of the lead is as follows: "Simultaneously, the Turkish nationalist movement carried out massacres and deportations in order to eliminate native Christian populations—a continuation of the Armenian genocide and other ethnic cleansing operations during World War I." As can be seen, the issue is covered by the lead, after an appropriate consensus has been reached.Megalomanda138 (talk) 18:48, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The second sentence covers the military campaigns of the Turkish National Movement (against Greece, Armenia, France etc) and the third sentence covers the ethnic cleansing (against the native Christian population). Thus, both “military and ethnic cleansing campaigns” should be mentioned in the first sentence of the article per MOS:FIRST. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 19:07, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Deji Olajide1999. This is also the standard practice in Wikipedia per WP:LEAD: The results and outcomes of the war are mentioned on the lead section, whose purpose is to summarize the main body of the article. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 19:27, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. I'm going to wait for more opinions and then I'll proceed with restoring it to the previous version in a day or so. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 23:16, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, making this change in the first sentence will mean that the purpose of the TWoI was ethnic cleansing; however the third sentence does not make such a claim in its current form. Therefore, the way the third sentence mentions the ethnic cleansing cannot be a good faith reason to add the notion to the first sentence, in the way, you would like to add it. In order to make such an addition, it must be well established in the article that the "purpose" of the TWoI was ethnic cleansing. However, this is not the case. There had been massacres, etc; however these events do not make the "aim" of the TWoI into ethnic cleansing. On that ground, the reason put forward by @Sandstein: still stands. Therefore, I strongly object to this revision. And, as a good faith editor on wikipedia, since I am objecting to this revision, and another editor (@GGT:) reverted this suggested revision, and at the moment there are only two editors in favor of this addition, there is a 2-2 tie on the issue, which means there is no consensus. I would kindly urge you to refrain from making such a change without proper consensus, also without the ample development being made in that direction in the article.Megalomanda138 (talk) 08:27, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't revert, however you said “making this change in the first sentence will mean that the purpose of the TWoI was ethnic cleansing; however the third sentence does not make such a claim in its current form.” The sources which are given here [13] disagree with you. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 11:58, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The source you mentioned does not make such a claim, i.e. the purpose of the TWoI being ethnic cleansing. The statement is as follows: "The Armenian Genocide, along with the killing of Assyrians and the expulsion of the Anatolian Greeks, laid the ground for the more homogeneous nation-state that arose from the ashes of the empire. Like many other states, including Australia, Israel, and the United States, the emergence of the Republic of Turkey involved the removal and subordination of native peoples who had lived on its territory prior to its founding." According to established consensus on Armenian Genocide, it ended in 1917; therefore this assesment of Suny is not related to TWoI. Same goes with the Assyrian killings. These are general references to WWI not to TWoI. On the matter of expulsion of the Greeks, it was during the WWI, later during TWoI and especially after TWoI, with population exchange. On the issue of expulsion of the Greeks, the source does not link it directly to the TWoI; even if it did so, the source does not state that expulsion of the Greeks was the "purpose" of TWoI. One can find ethnic cleansing in the foundation of Turkish Republic; however this assessment does not mean that the aim of TWoI was ethnic cleansing. To summarize, this source does not claim that the purpose of TWoI was ethnic cleansing; it merely makes the assessment that you can find elements of ethnic cleansing in the foundation of Turkish Rebuplic, which is not the same as claiming that TWoI was waged for ethnic cleansing. So, no, this source does not disagree with me.Megalomanda138 (talk) 13:21, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Quoting the source: “The ‘War of Independence’ was not against the occupying Allies – a myth invented by Kemalists – but rather a campaign to rid Turkey of remaining non-Turkish elements. In fact, Nationalists never clashed with Entente occupying forces until the French forces with Armenian contingents and Armenian deportees began to return to Cilicia in late 1919.” Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 13:28, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are arguments above that mischaracterise why "ethnic cleansing" was removed from the first sentence, and there are lots of arguments that clearly demonstrate that people haven't read what was discussed in the sections above. I won't restate my arguments, please read here and here. It is a different thing to say that there was ethnic cleansing that took place besides the Turkish War of Independence and it is an altogether different thing to define it as an ethnic cleansing campaign. There is no dispute about doing the former, which is why we have the ethnic cleansing discussed later on in the first paragraph, but the latter would be Wikipedia jumping the gun on the bulk of the scholarship (it's always possible to cherrypick sources as above, particularly niche articles written by people with different academic focuses e.g. genocide studies, but that is not how we write articles). The version of the lead as it stood before 3 September was the result of a consensus (as Buidhe would recount) and it is frankly disruptive to keep coming back to this without trying to build a consensus or addressing the arguments expressed in detail above. As it stands, there is no consensus for including "ethnic cleansing" in the first sentence. --GGT (talk) 13:49, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I read it and I disagree with the comment that Avedian is WP:CHERRY. I solely used him as an example. There are other sources besides Avedian which claim the same thing as he does (taken from this [14] mass of sources) which I will proceed to quote now: 1) “The famous 'war of national liberation', prepared by the Unionists and waged by Kemal, was a vast operation, intended to complete the genocide by finally eradicating Armenian, Greek, and Syriac survivors.” 2) “[...] throughout 1914–1924, the overarching aim was to achieve a Turkey free of Greeks.” 3) “Events on the ground, diplomatic correspondence, and news reports confirmed that it was the policy (!) of the Turkish Nationalists in Angora, who eventually founded the Republic of Turkey, to eradicate the remnants of the empire's Armenian population and finalize the expropriation of their public and private properties.” Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 16:18, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also this: “As such, the Greco‐Turkish and Armeno‐Turkish wars (1919–23) were in essence processes of state formation that represented a continuation of ethnic unmixing and exclusion of Ottoman Christians from Anatolia”. It's not referencing the Turkish War of Independence directly, but it's referencing two major parts of it and, to my understanding, notes that one of the purposes of these wars was the expulsion of Christians from Anatolia. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 16:24, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Problem with the leading paragraph persists

It seems to me that though there has never been consensus, the problematic insertions in the first paragraph persist and not removed. Not only it tries to add irrelevant and wrong information, the supporting references do not even support the assertions made:

- Turkish War of Independence is really about four major battles, I. and II. Inonu Battles, Sakarya Battle and Dumplupinar. All fought against Greek Army, and all major and large scale battles. Some skirmishes with French in the south and Armenians in the east should be included of course. - There are no systematic ethnic cleansings or massacres documented through 1919-1922 in Anatolia. No such events are mentioned in any major and classic books or literature on this piece of history. No such documents, orders, records, no places, dates, mass graves, numbers etc. exist but the statement in question is still in the lead. - Naturally any war involves atrocities, but in this case nothing systematic has taken place as far as we know. No such record. Those events should be dealt with in another section in the body of the article, and naturally should be balanced. - Also naturally, people on all sides have moved and migrated away from war zones, mostly to avoid retributions. There was an outflow of people, no numbers are available, and also an inflow, Muslims escaping invaders and atrocities. Major population exchanges with Greece took place years after the war, and should be noted, per the wish of the Greek government at the time. - There is no record of Turkish government at the time deporting any group anywhere. They did not have the means to begin with, and by that time the country has shrunk to where the Turks were overwhelming majority anyway. - None of the references offered in this regard offer dates, places, documents, orders, independent witness statements and it seems some general statements have been taken out of context. In the end, no specifics. Crimes of that nature and scale should have specifics. Especially if trying to convince other editors who are doubtful.

These are verifiable facts. I wanted to air them here before removing the misleading statement from the leading paragraph. Thank you. Murat (talk) 19:05, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of a section added with consensus

I added some time ago info about the war's influence on Weimar and Nazi Germany and created a section about possible influences on other nations. As seen in the talk page of this article, although User:GGT criticised it for WP:UNDUE at first, most users agreed that the influence on Nazi Germany should be mentioned; and nobody objected to the revised version by me up until now. Besides, I don't think the reason for deletion stated by User:Beshogur in the edit summary is a clear reason to delete it; because, his criticism seems to be rather focused on the wording; the edit summary doesn't challange the validity of the information. This section should be added back.--V. E. (talk) 15:43, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

his criticism seems to be rather focused on the wording then give me a valid reason why this is relevant to the topic itself. As I told, against whom and what is Ihrig arguing? Beside this, the text says: Germans, including Adolf Hitler, wanted to abolish the Treaty of Versailles just like the Treaty of Sèvres was abolished. this doesn't give a single relevance to the article either. Beshogur (talk) 16:17, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If you think to write "argue" is not accurate, you can propose a better wording; if your proposal turns out to be more clear, I will be glad to change it. However, for clarification, Ihrig is not arguing against specifically someone; and as I said, we can change it for a better wording. Lastly, I do not understand why it is not relevant to the article; abolishion of Treaty of Serves is specifically related to the Turkish War of Independence. Can you please elaborate on why you think it is not relevant?--V. E. (talk) 16:37, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Like how the other editors have said above in the very talk page, in the section titled "Turkish War of Independence: Impact on Nazi Germany", I do too believe that something about this influence on Germany has to be mentioned somehow on this article. Be it in a section of its own or in passing. Complete removal of information cannot be justified like that. To those editors who may question the influence of one war on another, they should bear in mind that Wikipedia is not a ground that has to reflect editorial opinions over what sources do say. The wars have everlasting effects and influences, no matter when or where they happen. And the history of the 20th century Europe isn't just random irrelevant events. It is an amalgam of events which may have influenced each other in many ways, direct or indirect ones. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 18:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I do also think that it should be mentioned somehow without falling into Godwin's Law. A clearer wording might be provided, and the entire section has to developed with the TWoI's influence on other nations other than Germany. Positive influences can also be found, since it was also perceived as an anti-imperialist war at the time by some.Megalomanda138 (talk) 20:49, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@SilentResident: that text is vague and doesn't add single value to the topic itself. It looks more like a smear campaign on Turkey, "how Nazis were influenced by the Kemalists". Beshogur (talk) 09:39, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"a smear campaign on Turkey". The article here is about an war, not about the country Turkey. What does this has to do with the Republic of Turkey? The war wasn't staged by the country. The RoT wasn't founded until a year later. Your argument just doesn't make sense. Even if it did, then I am afraid, per Wikipedia's WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, what we editors may believe about smear campaigns doesn't matter. You should know that Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought or original research and reflects, not upon editorial opinions but upon the sources. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 10:18, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The article here is about an war, not about the country Turkey. It doesn't matter whether Turkey was founded after the war or not, it is about Turkey and its history. You said Wikipedia is not a ground that has to reflect editorial opinions over what sources do say but haven't seen a single logical reasoning why this should stay here and how it is related to the war. You claim Turkey has nothing to do with this topic (which isn't true) but saying that an author's opinion about how Nazis were supposedly influenced by the Kemalists has something to do with this? Beshogur (talk) 10:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Both the article's subject and the information in question are about the War and that makes the information WP:RELEVANT to the article. Simple as that. Had it been about Turkey (the country) as you claim, then we couldn't been debating here but at Turkey's talk page. Which isn't the case here at all.
I don't think the issue here is the reliable source. The issue here is why you - a mere editor - is opposing the source's inclusion to the article on the grounds that it is a "smear campaign on Turkey". Your responses are instilling me less and less faith that your priority as an editor in Wikipedia is really to expand the article with information related to the war and the impact of it for Germany. If you have more valid reasons, I will be happy to hear them. Until then, I am afraid you lack the necessary consensus for removing the information from the article. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 11:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Beshogur, history and wars of nations are interwined; so, it is perfectly normal for a war to influence someone or a group one way or another even if it was not intended. Besides, this doesn't mean TWoI only had an impact on Nazi Germany. You can expand the relevant section with reliable sources to show how other figures or countries were influenced by the war. However, lack of perspective of other nations is no reason to delete the current text.--V. E. (talk) 12:15, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 September 2021

This article describes the independence war in a very negative and biased light, especially in the first paragraph of the article. In particular, it is said that the Turkish nationalist movement carried out massacres and deportations in order to eliminate native Christian populations during the war. This is incorrect for the given time period and context. Crimes against Christian populations were neither conducted, nor was there an intent to eliminate a Christian population. This can be seen directly as a result of the introduction of secularism in Turkey, which eliminates state affairs involving any religious motives, regardless of the given religion(1). Technically speaking, Ataturk, the leader of the independence movement, advocated for (and ultimately succeeded law-wise) any person to be eligible to become Turkish (2). It is also stated that the independence war continued the Armenian genocide, which is factually wrong, considering that there was a war between the nations, with Armenia being the belligerent in east turkey, with the aim of creating an Armenian state in eastern Anatolia(3). While The Armenian genocide saw the Ottoman empire conducting a genocide on the Armenian population, the Turkish republic is a different nation that did not conduct continued assaults in the name of the Armenian genocide. The article also states that these operations resulted in the creation of the republic of Turkey, which is not sourced, making it a biased statement. These details should be altered as they are misrepresentative of history.

  1. Mardin, Serif. "Religion and secularism in Turkey." Atatürk: Founder of a modern state (1981): 191-219.
  2. Atatürk, Kemal, 1881-1938. Nutuk. Ankara :Kültür Bakanlığı, 1995.
  3. Gawrych, George W. "Kemal Atatürk's politico‐military strategy in the Turkish war of independence, 1919–1922: From Guerrilla warfare to the decisive battle." The Journal of Strategic Studies 11.3 (1988): 318-341. Siwff22 (talk) 08:59, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, it is not clear how these sources support your request. Please provide quotations and page numbers.--V. E. (talk) 12:19, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Off-topic harassment and misconduct accusations

This is the wrong page to discuss this. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

There is this one user named ERLIK on Twitter who seems to have an influence on Turkish nationalists. He says "our Wiki team is not ready yet" and "we are calling seasoned editors to join us". His posts target articles such as Turkish War of Independence, and Nutuk.[15] Another example is one user posting a message under the same post by ERLIK calling other nationalist users to delete an image on Wikimedia Commons.[16] A few months ago, he posted other messsages some of which target these articles.[17] Best regards.--V. E. (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is common. My account and edits (1 week ago) were targeted as well, but the article was protected at the time. [18] [19] Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 13:32, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Deji Olajide1999: Neither I nor Erlik is a nationalist view. I am the guy who created the delete request. If you want to see my political view you can just simply visit my profile at Wikipedia Turkey. I am actually a socialist. And you're a greek nationalist. Do you have brain seizures or what? ZeusAmmon1 (talk) 14:31, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This has nothing to do with political ideologies. It has to do with organized trolls, targeting accounts and vandalizing English Wikipedia articles with edits such as this [20] which I reverted 5 minutes ago. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 14:43, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

by the way Smyrna burning we conducted by Greeks. And about Erlik situation it's not about organized trolling maybe it is organized but not trolling for sureZeusAmmon1 (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is interesting that you know so much about Erlik's organized Wiki edit community. Can you please tell me more about it and your apparent link to the group?--V. E. (talk) 15:11, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I dont have any connection with him. But i do know an organized Armenian community ZeusAmmon1 (talk) 15:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ZeusAmmon1: Are you referring to this: https://mobile.twitter.com/ISafaryan/status/1411241670541287424 ? Isvind (talk) 15:11, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Isvind: yes they're a well-organized group and possibly they're far from being objective. But I don't have solid proof ZeusAmmon1 (talk) 17:00, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ZeusAmmon1: At the moment there is no clue about who they are. But this organization should be investigated deeply. Isvind (talk) 17:11, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

False copyright claim

User:GGT deleted a section written by me saying that it was a "verbatim translation". In fact, this is not true.

As you see, it is not a verbatim translation.--V. E. (talk) 18:49, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Visnelma, what you've done above is to add three more copyrighted paragraphs to prove that the paragraph is not a copyvio. That is a clear copyvio (absolutely no way you can claim that was a fair use of copyrighted content) and it's also disruptive. Close paraphrasing also counts as copyvio and many of the sentences are not even close paraphrases, they are clear verbatim translations. I note that other users have tweaked around some sentences since they have been reinstated so I'll need to have a closer look at the article. But I've removed the copyvio above and please don't do this again. --GGT (talk) 12:18, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GGT: It is not a copyright violation; because, there is no other way for me other than transferring the text here to show that is not a "verbatim translation" as you wrongly claim. Comparing to the direct Google translation, the text parahrased my me is not alike to its original; and it's only you who object my reasoning, let the other users to decide whether it violates copyright or not.--V. E. (talk) 07:46, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, that is entirely incorrect, and this is not a two-way conversation. Textual excerpts are explicitly covered under the WP:Non-free content policy and lengthy quotations in particular are prohibited on talk pages, which means that posting copyrighted content on the talk page to make a point is a more blatant copyvio. Any further violations will result in admin attention. --GGT (talk) 11:49, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@GGT: There's no specific limit on the lenght of quotes. Many academic works quote a full paragraph from other non-free works occasionally such as in this case; this is called a block quotation. WP:POINT is completely irrelevant in this case, as showing that you are right with appropriate means is not prohibited in anyway. If you still disagree, you can attempt to report it at WP:ANI--V. E. (talk) 14:35, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Did you even check the block quotation page you just linked to? What you have copied and translated is not a quote, not even close. Not contextually or visually separated but written as if it was paraphrasing. This isn't an academic paper, Wikipedia has rules and expected approaches towards copyright from editors. Please refer to WP:CV Also, I just checked the source and doesn't having a big chunk of the first section after the lead, that being Historiography here, constist of a single source, that one being a recent interview with a single historian on an obscure news site, make it undue and even fringe? Especially when in the exact same source, the interviewee admits their field of expertise is not the ethnic cleansings that took place during the era? Even the interviewer doesn't seem reliable as the entire interview has loaded questions, claiming TWoİ had an İslamist purpose. Again, this is terrible editorial work, just selecting parts of obscure second (or third in this case)hand accounts to insert sensational paragraphs. There needs to be extensive discussions on these contributions. DriedGrape (talk) 12:42, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you are quite following; the 'block quotation' referred to a talk page message of mine GGT removed not the text in article itself which is already paraphrased and supported by an academic source.--V. E. (talk) 15:23, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to the majority of the last paragraph in historiography, which is a direct translated quote, not a paraphrasing. Also, again, using a single niche source to justify constituting a significant portion of the articles first section of such sensational opinions is most definitely not exemplary work. Rather than directly copying selected historians, the section should actually hold some relevant factual weight. DriedGrape (talk) 15:43, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If you look at the page history, you can see I had already re-paraphrased it 2 days ago. It is time to WP:DROPTHESTICK, because you are reinitiatizing a concluded discussion up to a point of ad nauseam.--V. E. (talk) 16:30, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And yet that portion of the paragraph is still an almost exact translation of a selected part of the source. Is your edit still even remotely up to Wiki standards besides the CV concerns? I'd say no, either way I won't continue to off topic under this discussion. DriedGrape (talk) 16:55, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits

Hey @El C. the version me and another editor tried to restore [21], [22] was the stable version of the article. I believe that description has been discussed on talk previously. Maybe @Buidhe will correct me if I'm wrong, since she's been involved a lot in the article, but I'm almost certainly sure that was the stable/consensus version. And it enjoyed consensus, at the very least loosely per WP:SILENCE. Recent undiscussed controversial changes like removing "massacres" from the short description almost certainly warrant a discussion, especially when those get reverted by multiple editors. Editors failed to discuss, and per WP:BRD I asked Shadow4dark to discuss and reach consensus for his/her changes, and I restored the long-standing stable version. I believe my reason of restoring stable edit was enough, and if you think that it wasn't, equally, Shadow4dark didn't provide sufficient reason for their re-reverts either [23]. Quote:"It is not covered in whole page, read it..."

Even the lead of the article which (should) summarize the body states: Simultaneously, the Turkish nationalist movement carried out massacres and deportations in order to eliminate native Christian populations—a continuation of the Armenian genocide and other ethnic cleansing operations during World War I. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 15:05, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ZaniGiovanni, I've already explained to you that SILENCE may only be invoked when there is silence. It is not grounds for reverting. WP:BOLD edits are allowed. Objecting to and reverting such edits requires substantiation even in the most nominal sense. In this case, I'm not really that concerned with how the reverts cascaded after that. El_C 15:11, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
El C shouldn't the editor who is WP:BOLDLY changing the consensus version discuss on talk instead of re-reverting, especially when the same edit has been reverted by 2 editors and is controversial in nature? Per WP:BRD I believe it's BOLD, revert, discuss. I asked them multiple times to discuss, they refused to do so. I was just restoring stable version as I believe this short description was already discussed, and we actually have consensus for it. If the editor wishes to change it, maybe they should reach a new consensus? I don't understand what exactly I'm in the wrong here? I'll wait for more involved editors to chime in as I said I'm almost certain there was a consensus for my restored edit, and certainly if editors wish to change it, they shouldn't just re-revert and edit-war but discuss. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 15:17, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ZaniGiovanni, again, I'm not really that concerned with how the reverts cascaded after your initial revert. Accompanying it with an edit summary that reads (in full): rv, no consensus isn't a valid justification in this instance since it fails to address anything about your objection beyond that, so it simply comes across as a WP:FAITACCOMPLI. El_C 15:30, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ok El C, I understand you. Do you think my explanation is good enough now? I clarified my rationale as you asked. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 15:36, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. El_C 15:41, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
El C I'm glad all is sorted out. Reading your replies now more clearly, you were more concerned about the proper edit descriptions being shown, rather than all the edit-war shenanigans. Gonna be honest, since it was the long-standing article version I restored, I was a bit careless with my edit description(s), will improve in future situations like this. And thanks for always being on point.
I was going to ask if we should restore the stable version? If other users still wish to change it, they're free to discuss and reach consensus. With best, ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:02, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Given the first paragraph details that the massacres and ethnic cleansing were an integral part of the war, I see no reason why a rose tinted short description should stand. FDW777 (talk) 16:26, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that first paragraph itself is problematic. The last sentence is simply not true. I am not aware of any systematic massacres or ethnic cleansing by the Kemalists during the War of Independence. Some of the population surely moved or ran away afraid of reprisals. Similarly, other populations were moving in running away from threats on the other side. Major population exchanges between Greece and Turkey took place much later. Claims of continuation of massacres during WWI are completely out of place and not true. This needs to be rectified. Seems like the work of pov editors to me. Murat (talk) 16:59, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not aware of any systematic massacres or ethnic cleansing by the Kemalists during the War of Independence. (this one is something special)
Seems like the work of pov editors to me
You either need to make sense or stop with this nonsense. We have let's see how many, hmmm...12 sources cited for the lead part in question, including Turkish ones, and you're out here saying "I'm not aware of systematic massacares..." as if your "awareness" is of any relevance to the article or its cited sources. The stable version should be restored, just because El C reverted to something you may prefer (because of formality/edit description reasons), doesn't mean you have to jump-in instantly with your personal commentary, which sources directly contradict. When I say editors are free to discuss and reach consensus, I don't mean original research. And to be frank, there isn't much to discuss here. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:00, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You tone is offensive and your insults support my claim. Most of citations are opinions of people who were not witnesses or well known partisans who are not capable of rendering objective opinions. This particular history is something a I know something about and I am not aware of any such systematic massacres that would warrant mention in the very first paragraph. No specifics of such massacres given, locations, dates, mass graves, victims, perpetrators, most importantly documents, orders etc.. Not sure why insist on such problematic and categorically wrong information be spread? Murat (talk) 15:40, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I know this WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but it's important to form a consensus on the amount of details that should be included in article short descriptions, since articles on other massacre-heavy wars such as the Granada War, Haitian Revolution, the related Greek War of Independence, Second Sino-Japanese War, and the Eastern Front (World War II) do not mention the massacres in their short descriptions. Lightspecs (talk) 23:59, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to discuss anything about the articles you mentioned, this talk isn't the place for it. If you think said articles have as strong of a case of massacres as this one with multiple sources cited, go ahead and open a discussion in said articles' talk pages. You've yet to present an actual argument related to this page and as to why the short desc. should be changed. It is indeed WP:OTHERSTUFF to list other articles as an argument. We have multiple sources cited for massacres in the lead, from various authors of various nationalities, it is an undeniable fact. The stable version should be restored as it was accurate and needed no change. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 03:26, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We can add 100 sources about the massacres but it should be covered in the article. It has small mention at lede and it is covered by one paragraph. Unless the whole page is rewritten it should be deleted. Shadow4dark (talk) 03:51, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And what guideline/rule says that? What are you basing that on? And it's covered in multiple sources, just because it isn't expanded in the article doesn't mean it's insignificant. Similarly, we can always expand the article based on those sources, you know it really helps when we have 12 sources cited. But let me guess, you wouldn't like it, would you? ZaniGiovanni (talk) 04:07, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I did not say "i do not want it" i said it is not much covered in the page and it need be more covered for such claims at top, see the 3 points at Purposes WP:SHORTDES Shadow4dark (talk) 07:07, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Don't ever incorrectly change my text again, it is 'covered' as I intended to write. And as I said already, it won't be a problem to expand the article since we have so many sources citing massacres. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 07:18, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
it was a small mistake, whould you be less combative? Shadow4dark (talk) 07:23, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You need to learn what combative is, and refrain from misusing such terms in the future. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 07:36, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion seems to be about making the lead less NPOV in order to reflect the body, which needs further improvement to meet NPOV. What I think would improve the article is working to make the article better, not the lead worse. (t · c) buidhe 07:24, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Buidhe, the discussion isn't about the lead, it's about the short description that was changed recently. Users arguing for the changed short desc say that the "article doesn't talk about massacres enough" and hence the short desc should be changed, while my argument is that the short desc is fine because massacres were significant and have many sources cited. If expanding the body to include about the massacres more would solve the issue, I'm all for it. But you're probably have more knowledge about short descs and whatnot, I'd like to hear what you think. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 07:34, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
nvm, seems like the article's body already has it covered: Turkish War of Independence#Ethnic cleansing. More in other related articles: Armenian genocide#Turkish War of Independence, Greek genocide, Population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Do you think the body should be expanded more? ZaniGiovanni (talk) 07:47, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It surely does and also seems to add unrelated topics, not to mention correctness challenged here.
I think this topic has been beaten to death. Turkish War of Independence is mostly and mostly about War against the Greek Army. That is the main event and basic definition.
I also think "wars in Turkey" may sound less accurate since one can argue Turkey as country, not geography (that would be Anatolia), did not exist yet. Murat (talk) 03:00, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hudavendigar, sorry but I moved your sig down a line, I think both lines above were from you? Would 1919-1923 wars forming the Turkish republic be better to avoid the issue of Turkey not yet being a thing during 1919-1923? — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 15:23, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@GhostInTheMachine: There's nothing wrong with the name Turkey. The Ottoman Empire was also called Turkey back at that time. It was used synonymously. Beshogur (talk) 15:43, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Stay with 1919-1923 series of wars in Turkey then — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 16:36, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@GhostInTheMachine You don't listen, do you? Provide an actual argument to why exactly you want massacres to be absent. I've yet to see one from you. Please communicate when someone asks you to. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:42, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your great suggestion still misses massacres, and you still didn't explain why. Current version is fine to me, and I showed the rationale for it multiple times. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:36, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It surely does and also seems to add unrelated topics, not to mention correctness challenged here – whoever left this first sign your comment, and secondly, saying "it does" isn't an argument.

No further comments in six days – Do you mean no further replies to my argument, and still not any that I can see of? Again, massacres are a significantly cited area of the article with over 10 sources, probably the most cited one, and it's also covered in the article, see Turkish_War_of_Independence#Ethnic_cleansing. If there are no better arguments than just saying one liners with no elaboration, I'm going to restore what resembles stable version the most and with regard and adjustments to WP:SDSHORT . ZaniGiovanni (talk) 06:55, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As said by me and buidhe you need expand it. Can you restore back last version? Shadow4dark (talk) 09:57, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Don't speak for other people. Buidhe initially thought that we were discussing the lead, and they didn't respond further when I showed them that the discussion is about short description. And massacres/ethnic cleansing is already covered and expanded in the article's body, with more than sufficient references cited in the article. If you feel like those should be expanded more, then go ahead. Right now, I see no problem in remaining and adjusting the correct long-standing version of the short desc, which I've done. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:17, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
the correct long-standing version of the short desc, which I've done.wrong the desc was [[24]]. Shadow4dark (talk) 10:25, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the diff, didn't notice it previously. Still doesn't change anything, and consensuses do switch. Your only argument of "it isn't in the body" is wrong regardless, and again for the tenth time, not only massacres/ethnic cleansing is in the body, but it probably has the most sources cited throughout the article [25]. If you have arguments to present, go ahead. Other than that, I feel like this is just becoming WP:JDLI. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:35, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unrelated, but El C you asked to remind you to restore the semi-protection. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 07:22, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thanks, man. El_C 11:45, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Problem with the leading paragraph persists

It seems to me that though there has never been consensus, the problematic insertions in the first paragraph persist and not removed. Not only it tries to add irrelevant and wrong information, the supporting references do not even support the assertions made:

- Turkish War of Independence is really about four major battles, I. and II. Inonu Battles, Sakarya Battle and Dumplupinar. All fought against Greek Army, and all major and large scale battles. Some skirmishes with French in the south and Armenians in the east should be included of course. - There are no systematic ethnic cleansings or massacres documented through 1919-1922 in Anatolia. No such events are mentioned in any major and classic books or literature on this piece of history. No such documents, orders, records, no places, dates, mass graves, numbers etc. exist but the statement in question is still in the lead. - Naturally any war involves atrocities, but in this case nothing systematic has taken place as far as we know. No such record. Those events should be dealt with in another section in the body of the article, and naturally should be balanced. - Also naturally, people on all sides have moved and migrated away from war zones, mostly to avoid retributions. There was an outflow of people, no numbers are available, and also an inflow, Muslims escaping invaders and atrocities. Major population exchanges with Greece took place years after the war, and should be noted, per the wish of the Greek government at the time. - There is no record of Turkish government at the time deporting any group anywhere. They did not have the means to begin with, and by that time the country has shrunk to where the Turks were overwhelming majority anyway. - None of the references offered in this regard offer dates, places, documents, orders, independent witness statements and it seems some general statements have been taken out of context. In the end, no specifics. Crimes of that nature and scale should have specifics. Especially if trying to convince other editors who are doubtful.

These are verifiable facts. I wanted to air them here before removing the misleading statement from the leading paragraph. Thank you. Murat (talk) 19:11, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That would be original research. Your 6 unsourced points do not override the 12 sources meticulously cited for the 3rd sentence of the leading paragraph. See the big red highlighted notice at the top of this talk page. Lightspecs (talk) 23:49, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What original research? I would be curious to find out, please do tell. All the facts I have listed are common knowledge that can be gleamed from wiki pages. I can add references if necessary. It is clear that the issue is not resolved and there is no consensus. The very length of this talk page is proof. Meticulous references mentioned in fact do not support the claims made. I wonder if you can point to specific dates, places, documents, orders, pictures, mass graves, perpetrators mentioned in these references? I did not see any. Murat (talk) 15:21, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Original research is saying that we shouldn't include what 12 sources are stating. Wikipedia isn't based on opinions, but on reliable sources. References in fact DO mention massacres, there are even quotes from the sources directly (not sure how you didn't notice). I'll put them here just in case:
  • "As such, the Greco-Turkish and Armeno-Turkish wars (1919–23) were in essence processes of state formation that represented a continuation of ethnic unmixing and exclusion of Ottoman Christians from Anatolia." – Üngör, Uğur Ümit, Oxford University Press
  • " from spring 1919, Kemal Pasha resumed, with ex- CUP forces, domestic war against Greek and Armenian rivals. These were partly backed by victors of World War I who had, however, abstained from occupying Asia Minor. The war for Asia Minor— in national diction, again a war of salvation and independence, thus in- line with what had begun in 1913— accomplished Talaat's demographic Turkification beginning on the eve of World War I. Resuming Talaat's Pontus policy of 1916– 17, this again involved collective physical annihilation, this time of the Rûm of Pontus at the Black Sea." – Kieser, Hans-Lukas, Princeton University Press
  • ''The Greek seizure of Smyrna and the repeated pushes inland— almost to the outskirts of Ankara, the Nationalist capital—coupled with the largely imagined threat of a Pontine breakaway, triggered a widespread, systematic four- year campaign of ethnic cleansing in which hundreds of thousands of Ottoman Greeks were massacred and more than a million deported to Greece... throughout 1914–1924, the overarching aim was to achieve a Turkey free of Greeks." – Morris, Benny; Ze'evi, Dror (2019). The Thirty-Year Genocide: Turkey's Destruction of Its Christian Minorities, 1894–1924. Harvard University Press
Among others [26]. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:34, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not satisfactory at all. None of the major classic books and references make mention of these systematic atrocities you seem to be stuck on. Most of these referenes you bring up seem to hark back to periods before the War of Independence, none of them are actual documentaries, so it seems you are trying include irrelevant material here for some reason. Why in the lead paragraph? Clearly not the main topic and seems mostly unrelated. Most significantly, if such large scale atrocities did occur (only one that actually occurred and fully documented was the rape and pillage of Western Turkey by the Greek Army in retreat) then why not mention specifics, dates, places, perpetrators, mass graves, numbers etc. None offer it but you still insist on them. I am at a loss. This is not resolved at all. Murat (talk) 16:36, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, all of the 12 sources cited and quoted for the sentence and for the section on ethnic cleansing clearly note the fact that these atrocities took place, the time period (during the Turkish War of Independence, not during earlier years), and the perpetrators (the Turkish National Movement). The claim that there's "no source" is blatantly false. Lightspecs (talk) 03:18, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, there are no dates, places, casualties, numbers, mass graves, documents, orders, etc. your sources not ommit all these, they cover a different period of history. Murat (talk) 20:29, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There are all of these. Within these 12 sources and the relevant parts are already quoted. ZaniGiovanni already listed 3 of them for you. Please don't remove it without forming a consensus here. You alone don't determine what's satisfactory or not. Lightspecs (talk) 22:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Short desc

This is getting ridicoulous. @Beshogur your revert of "how many times are you gonna ignore other users, even an admin. Stop edit warring about a short descr" doesn't contain a valid argument/reason, and is disruptive. Consensus isn't assumed by numbers but by strength of the arguments. I demonstrated the rationale as to why massacres need to be included in the short desc multiple times, and I'm not the only one with that opinion, for whatever that's worth. Please don't speak for admins from herein, the edit you linked was reinstated by El C because at the time, I didn't explain my rationale. Later on talk, El C was satisfied by my explanation. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:40, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. An argument needs to be presented for why we should remove the reference to massacres. Are users arguing the massacres didn't happen? Or that they did happen but aren't relevant? Regardless, an argument needs to be presented, rather than the current disruptive drive-by removals. Jeppiz (talk) 10:55, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
GhostInTheMachine indef p-blocked from the main article. As I consider the next steps, perhaps someone would be kind enough to establish a timeline (with diffs) that shows which version is the longstanding and which is the contending one. El_C 13:30, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
El C The closest one to the current short desc seems to be 4 months ago (10:16, 20 June 2021). I don't know what exactly constitutes as long-standing, but regardless, consensuses can change as I understand, and I've been consistently showing my rationale for the current version. We have 12 sources stating that ethnic cleansing/massacres did in fact happen, many from reliable publishers like Oxford University Press/Harvard Press/etc, and even Turkish authors. We also have an entire section about ethnic cleansing in the article body. My belief is that we shouldn't whitewash the short desc even if it's considered (or by some considered) a minor part of the article. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 13:48, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is even more accurate: Series of wars and massacres by the Turkish National Movement, and is short enough. Per lead/body and sources:
  • "The Turkish War of Independence[note 3] (19 May 1919 – 24 July 1923) was a series of military campaigns waged by the Turkish National Movement after parts of the Ottoman Empire were occupied and partitioned following its defeat in World War I."
  • "Simultaneously, the Turkish nationalist movement carried out massacres and deportations in order to eliminate native Christian populations—a continuation of the Armenian genocide and other ethnic cleansing operations during World War I" ZaniGiovanni (talk) 14:04, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ZaniGiovanni, looks like opponents of that change waited too long (months) before restoring the original shot description on 17:13, 13 September 2021, so the version with massacres is now the longstanding version and the one without has become the contending one (unless there's an earlier revert I missed). Which means that during an WP:RFC, it benefits from the general expectation of being the one displayed, and more importantly, reaps the benefit of being defaulted to in the event of a no consensus outcome. So, you see (SO YOU SEE...), WP:SILENCE be stealth! (edit conflict) Let me write the thing! El_C 14:08, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
El C Finally, I was right about WP:SILENCE (or was I?). Still learning, a lot. Thanks for the mediation, it was really getting frustrating with users not engaging my comments and reverting blindly. I'm going to restore the longstanding version, giving due attribution to the national movement. I won't include the "culminating in the creation of the Turkish republic" as I understand it would be in conflict with WP:SDSHORT (too long). ZaniGiovanni (talk) 14:17, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, no. The original 20 June version or bust. El_C 14:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You mean with no modifications? Got you. Yeah you are right, long-standing (because of silence) means exactly how it was at the time. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 14:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I restored the longstanding short desc per discussion here. If there are disagreements from any of the users involved, I'm happy to do my part in answering them. Thanks again El_C for the mediation, take care everyone. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 14:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I now see that 1919-1923 series of wars and massacres in Turkey [independence be gone!] was called: "stable version prior to all the edit warring" by Jeppiz, so they are welcome to establish the veracity of that claim. Otherwise, figure out among yourselves the top two competing short desc versions and conduct an RfC about it. That seems most intuitive. El_C 14:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As I understand at this point, an WP:RFC should be the option in case of a disagreement. I think enough already has been said. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 14:40, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
An RfC is meant to solicit outside input and codify the consensus through an uninvolved close. Obviously, if suddenly everyone agrees, they'd be no need, but enough already has been said isn't a valid argument. El_C 14:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Got you, only valid arguments here. Or else... ZaniGiovanni (talk) 14:53, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not satisfactory at all. None of the major classic books and references make mention of these systematic atrocities you seem to be stuck on. Most of these references you bring up seem to hark back to periods before the War of Independence, none of them are actual documentaries, so it seems you are trying include irrelevant material here for some reason. Why in the lead paragraph? Clearly not the main topic and seems mostly unrelated. Most significantly, if such large scale atrocities did occur (only one that actually occurred and fully documented was the rape and pillage of Western Turkey by the Greek Army in retreat, which was even acknowledged by Greek allies in Lausanne and caused them to secede some islands since they could not pay) then why not mention specifics, dates, places, perpetrators, mass graves, numbers etc. None offer it but you still insist on them. I am at a loss. This is not resolved at all. There seems to be a systematic manipulation of this article and incorporate certain point of views. Murat (talk) 16:42, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Greek massacres of Turks & Greek scorched-earth policy

I see that there's an entire section about this on Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922), skipping the article, even the lead makes makes zero mention about atrocities commited by the Hellenic army.

References

  1. ^ Toynbee 1922, p. 285

What's the reason for this? Beshogur (talk) 17:01, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone actually going to comment something? I don't see any reason why these shouldn't be included as well. Beshogur (talk) 11:00, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Naturally there should be a section in such a lengthy article and on a major conflict that involved different ethnicities and religions pitched against each other, on atrocities committed on all sides. Most of the events are well documented, including especially the destruction and pillage of the retreating Greek Army. Their atrocities were specifically mentioned in Lausanne. But all such events should be included of course. I still maintain that these events were not the main topic and should not have been included in the lead paragraph (it seems with a specific agenda), especially expanding the events to all the way 1911. Murat (talk) 16:27, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I see the new short description blames all massacres to the Turks. Shadow4dark (talk) 16:34, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that and the lead paragraph still needs to be addressed. Murat (talk) 16:44, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@El C:, @Buidhe:, @Visnelma:, @ZaniGiovanni:, @Deji Olajide1999:, @Kevo327:, wanna hear your opinions as well. I didn't even notice nothing was told about those atrocities in the article. Beshogur (talk) 16:53, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked through the section Greco-Turkish_War_(1919–1922)#Greek_massacres_of_Turks briefly, most of it seems to be covered only by one source (Toynbee), and at the end, it has fringe claims by a known genocide denier and Turkish shill Justin McCarthy. Overall from the first glance, I'd say that it doesn't have the same WP:WEIGHT as the massacres of Christian populations, and including it in the lead especially would be WP:FALSEBALANCE considering how many reliable sources we have supporting Christian massacres and the lack of such (compared to the first) in regard to Turk population massacres. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 06:52, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Greek scorched earth policy during the retreat is very well-documented, there is nothing fringe about it. The content in the Greco-Turkish article could be better sourced. The reason why it's not covered in the article is because it was never added, indeed it was only very recently that the anti-Christian campaigns were added. Let's get it right this time around though, the focus should initially be on adding the content to the body of the article, and then the lead. --GGT (talk) 12:30, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@ZaniGiovanni: fringe? So what if there's mainly Arnold J. Toynbee's works on the article? Is his works unreliable? And how did you decide those are "fringe claims" made by Justin McCarthy. For example Bernard Lewis is used everywhere throughout Wikipedia as well. Sydney Nettleton Fisher wrote that: The Greek army in retreat pursued a burned-earth policy and committed every known outrage against defenceless Turkish villagers in its path. so Sydney Nettleton Fisher is another Turkish shill? There are pretty much various sources and it is well documented. Today's lead is simply one sided. Beshogur (talk) 13:47, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding McCarthy and Lewis:
• "McCarthy's work has faced harsh criticism by many scholars who have characterized McCarthy's views defending Turkish atrocities against Armenians as genocide denial. Hans-Lukas Kieser considers that McCarthy has "an indefensible bias toward the Turkish official position"." [1]
• "However, McCarthy's work has faced harsh criticism by scholars who have characterized McCarthy's views as indefensibly biased towards Turkey and the Turkish official position as well as engaging in genocide denial." [2]
• "Lewis notoriously denied the Armenian genocide. He argued that the deaths of the mass killings resulted from a struggle between two nationalistic movements, claiming that there is no proof of intent by the Ottoman government to exterminate the Armenian nation." [3]
I'd say anything McCarthy and Lewis say close to Armenians and Turks, especially regarding massacres, genocide, etc. shouldn't be considered WP:RS. They're both open denialists, and their apparent bias towards Turkey has been criticized/shown by historians and experts alike.
Regarding Toynbee: His book is from 1922 [27], and in cases like this, WP:AGEMATTERS applies. Moreover, he changed his viewpoints quite radically, going from supporting Greece to supporting Turkey. That's quite the jump, and I'd be taking anything contentious he says regarding Greece/Turkey with a grain of salt, even if not considering the WP:AGEMATTERS as is the case here, quote:
• "His support for Greece and hostility to the Turks during World War I had gained him an appointment to the Koraes Chair of Modern Greek and Byzantine History at King's College, University of London. However, after the war he changed to a pro-Turkish position, accusing Greece's military government in occupied Turkish territory of atrocities and massacres." [28].
Comparing this to the amount of sources we have supporting Armenian/Greek/Christian minority cleansing/massacres, most of them from reliable and solid publications (not just 100yr old book or two denialist authors), this is a clear case of WP:UNDUE and WP:FALSEBALANCE, especially the suggestion to include it in the lead along with the overwhelmingly supported Christian minorities' massacres. Simply put, it doesn't have the same WP:WEIGHT as the massacres of minorities. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 04:47, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@ZaniGiovanni: I don't see anything at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard about them. Do I miss something? How did you decide they're not a RS? Also those are two different topics. Beshogur (talk) 05:06, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Don't ping me. I showed my rationale as to why they aren't reliable, and it's not just my opinion, they have been criticized by historians/experts for having apparent pro Turkish position and for making fringe denialist claims. You're saying that those are two topics, but the topics are closely intertwined, as both are a continuation of the genocide/cleansing and involved massacres, and both of the authors take the Turkish position, completely neglecting what multiple RS sources say regarding minority massacres. You're the one suggesting adding info to the article. If you feel like Lewis or McCarthy are reliable here, please go ahead in that same noticeboard and ask 3rd party editors for their opinions. Actually I'd love to see the replies. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 05:15, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also, just because someone hasn't brought McCarthy and Lewis in RSN, doesn't make McCarthy and Lewis suddenly reliable. Especially in areas where they have shown to have major conflict of interest and bias, and especially in cases of WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:UNDUE, when in contrary, we have multiple WP:INDEPENDENT high quality RS sources. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 05:21, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ZaniGiovanni: huh, it doesn't work like this. Perhaps take your concerns to the noticeboard if those are unreliable. Also denying massacres of Turks and burned Turkish villages isn't a good attitude, doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. I could put dozens of British sources from that period confirming Hellenic army atrocities: Inter-Allied Commission of Enquiry into Atrocities in Yalova and Guemlek, ‎Great Britain. Foreign Office · 1921: The commission visited Gedelek, a village which had been entirely destroyed, but was unable to find any trace of the twenty - seven people reported to have been massacred. and The Nation and Athenaeum, vol. 29: In the Kara Mursal Peninsula, between Yalova and Guemlek, on the Marmora coast, a wholesale massacre of Moslems by Greeks has been going on during the last two months. These massacres equal in ferocity and intention the massacres of Armenians by the C.U.P. in 1915. There is nothing that violates WP:FALSEBALANCE here. Beshogur (talk) 10:55, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Beshogur:, actually it works exactly like that. ZaniGiovanni has compiled a rather convincing body of rational sourced evidence, whereas your own argumentation comes across as rather emotional rather than rational. I say this as someone who thinks you're right; I also think we should include Greek atrocities in this article, so we're in perfect agreement. That should be done based on reliable sources, and ZaniGiovanni has shown why McCarthy and Lewis aren't reliable. That doesn't mean the information shouldn't be included in the body of the article, it just means better sources are needed. Jeppiz (talk) 15:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What part of "don't ping me" you didn't understand? Are you having struggles reading basic english? I clearly asked you to stop pinging me. The WP:ONUS isn't one me to do anything, I demonstrated why McCarthy and Lewis aren't reliable and have been criticized by historians and experts as well. You are the one suggesting adding info to the article, The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. If you think McCarthy and Lewis are reliable here and in this context especially, that's entirely your opinion. If you wish to get broader consensus on them, take it to the RSN. Other than that, I still remain of the view that they are noway near RS when it comes anything close to Armenian genocide/cleansing/massacres or claiming the opposite for Turks, because of their blatant pro-Turkish bias and fringe claims about the Armenian genocide (again same denialist Turkish position).
Also denying massacres of Turks and burned Turkish villages isn't a good attitude – I don't think you understand what WP:WEIGHT means. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 05:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is what happens when pov and uninformed editors make these articles their playground. Even well documented large scale events are dismissed with a whim. Greek scorched earth tactics, especially when retreating are well documented by foreign observers at the time and recorded. It was at such scale and so embarrassing to the Allies that at Lausanne Greeks were forced to pay reparations. During their initial occupation massacres were committed in Izmir also. Not to mention what happened in the East and Black Sea region. I will detail them all in the new section I proposed, or rather new titled, "war-time atrocities" where all this belongs.Murat (talk) 19:44, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is what happens when pov and uninformed editors make these articles their playground – last and only warning of WP:NPA. You arent being helpful. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 05:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@ZaniGiovanni: What part of "don't ping me" you didn't understand? Are you having struggles reading basic english? It's obvious that I don't have struggles with "reading basic english". You're talking about personal attacks, but this is no less than that. Also I am using the basic reply function. Beshogur (talk) 07:44, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Causalities

The western front causalities of Turkey is not all turkish there is other muslim minorities killed. it discussed and changed in the past that you can find sources and discussion in the discussions. Also 15,000 is seem wrong to my knowlage the supporting resource is from University of Hawaii and not an historian he is an political scientist and his writings are historical comments more than scientific history if there is any historical resources supports these numbers we can discuss about it but in these moment it looks like a bit malicious to me. Deniz Mirik (talk) 20:56, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Casualities* forgive me. Deniz Mirik (talk) 21:03, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Definition

"a continuation of the Armenian genocide and other ethnic cleansing operations during World War I." Is it an impartial and scientific definition. Deniz Mirik (talk) 21:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Some will argue that point, but regardless, not relevant enough to be included in the lead paragraph. This article is not about WWI. Also people who make these claim have failed to give specifics to support the claim that systematic ethic cleansing or massacres were committed during the War of Independence. Dates, places, numbers, documents, orders, mass graves etc.. what part of this is hard to grasp I fail to see. There is or should be a section below that deals with atrocities committed by all, but including it in the first paragraph is clearly wrong. Murat (talk) 20:26, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Impact - atrocities

The sub-sectioned named "ethnic cleansing" should be modified to "war-time atrocities" or something similar. There certainly were atrocities committed by all sides and such details should be placed here instead of randomly dispersing throughout the article by pov editors. Would like to hear inputs. Murat (talk) 19:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dror Ze'evi and Benny Morris

Dror Ze'evi and Benny Morris, both 3rd party historians, both already cited in the article,

Both have been published by authoritative and reliable publications such as Harvard University Press. I can't see why the recent edits by François Robere shouldn't remain in the article. Noteworthy comment, POV requires that all major viewpoints are represented. Dror Ze'evi and Benny Morris are highly notable historians. Their book, The Thirty-Year Genocide (2019) has 34 citations on GS, and is already cited in the article lead. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 07:53, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ZaniGiovanni: That text has one sentence about Ataturk. If we remove the rest, what's left other than: These horrendous acts were committed by ... the nationalist-secular post-war regime of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.". Also I don't get what you're trying to point out with Dror Ze'evi and Benny Morris, authors of The Thirty-Year Genocide, + the source; pointing out that they're notable historians? Beshogur (talk) 10:25, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Dror Ze'evi and Benny Morris, authors of The Thirty-Year Genocide, write that "the story about what happened in Turkey is much broader and deeper [than just the Armenian genocide]. It's deeper because it isn't just about World War I, but about a series of homicidal ethno-religious cleansings that took place from the late 1890's to the 1920's and beyond.
WW1 is mentioned in the article as well, and beyond. And their much more comprehensive book; The thirty-year genocide. Turkey's destruction of its Christian minorities, 1894–1924, by Benny Morris and Dror Ze'evi, Cambridge, MA, and London, Harvard University Press, is already cited in the lead. So it's not just "one sentence", the article is elaborating deeper about what they already have published. And last time I checked, this page isn't solely about Ataturk, but the Turkish war as a whole and the massacres that came with it ought to me be mentioned if reliable authors/publications state them in books (a lot more extensively) and in articles. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:36, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That text has one sentence about Ataturk I'm not sure what's your point. François Robere (talk) 12:43, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is not that Ze'evi and Morris are unreliable. There are several problems with this addition. The first and the most basic one is that such long quotes are very seldom acceptable and do in fact pose copyright problems. If that even is a question, it needs to go. The second problem is that their hypothesis of a 30-year genocidal campaign (one that is more extensive than the late Ottoman genocides theory), which is essentially embodied by this long quote, is one that does not have a lot of traction amongst scholars, see the critique of their work in the article and please do read the actual reviews for more details. It is therefore very much WP:UNDUE. The third problem is that this quote is only tangentially related to the War of Independence. It lumps together all sorts of atrocities from a 30 year-long period into one big list and is thus misleading. For instance, it talks about girls being sold as sex slaves, but nowhere in the book do they actually demonstrate evidence of such acts during the War of Independence. If it didn't happen during this war, there is no reason for it to be mentioned in this article. Please establish consensus before reinstating it. --GGT (talk) 15:03, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is not that Ze'evi and Morris are unreliable – No they're not, and you haven't provided any evidence for that. They're notable historians, published by reliable publications and their book, The Thirty-Year Genocide (2019) has 34 citations on GS.
Every reliable major book/website has criticism, and this book isn't an exception. It doesn't make it "WP:UNDUE", is New York Times suddenly "undue" because it has been subject to criticism? What kind of logic is this?
It doesn't lump anything, it explicitly mentions that these acts were a result of 3 regimes: These horrendous acts were committed by three entirely different regimes:
I see no reason why the edit was reverted, when all the atrocities and massacres described in it are not only supported by Dror Ze'evi and Benny Morris book, but by dozen other reliable sources. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 08:10, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I see no reason why the edit was reverted. Uh, it’s a copyvio in the first place? There is nothing to indicate that such a lengthy quote constitutes fair use.
Just for clarification, The problem is not that Ze'evi and Morris are unreliable means that I’m not claiming that the book is not RS.
A book can be RS in terms of the factual information it’s reporting and yet its main thesis can be a minority viewpoint. Being RS does not automatically mean that its viewpoint merits inclusion. This is the case for this book, as evidenced by the critique, hence it’s undue. And heck, the quote is not even from the book, it’s from a random commentary in Haaretz. That doesn’t count as a scholarly work. Just because these two academics published a reliable book, it doesn’t mean that every word out of their mouths has encyclopaedic quality.
If there were no sex slaves during the War of Independence, there cannot be a discussion of sex slaves in this article. Sorry, but anything else is just purely misleading and irrelevant. Not every sensationalistic commentary that you find on the internet needs to be here, that’s just not good encyclopedia building. That involves doing a comprehensive literature search and avoiding commentaries where academic research is available.
I really think I’ve laboured the point here and failure to get why it has been removed would be disruptive in the first place.
—GGT (talk) 12:23, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GGT: the problem here, they cite a book to show that they're reliable. That's not how it's work. I already explained how the text was problematic, that's another issue. Beshogur (talk) 12:51, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Short description

The short description is horribly long again.
A Short description should be short – see WP:SDSHORT.
A Short description should not attempt to define the article's subject – see WP:SDNOTDEF.
A Short description exists to clarify which article has been found by a search. As such, dates do help and details of what happened do not. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 10:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, there should be a shorter short description (this article is in Category: Articles with long short description, a maintenance category I've been slowly working my way through). Reading through what happened in the previous discussion, it looked like it was going to come close to a consensus for a shorter short description until El_C used his admin privileges to insist that a longer version be maintained. I don't have any strong opinions on which of the proposed short descriptions should be used right now, as long as the description is shortened (ideally in the range of 30-60 characters). Iffy★Chat -- 20:23, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Iffy I believe when a person is being discussed, it's only appropriate to ping them. El C suggested restoring the longstanding version, and later discuss or RfC if there are proposals, quote: Otherwise, figure out among yourselves the top two competing short desc versions and conduct an RfC about it. So saying they "insisted for the longer version be maintained" is inaccurate, they suggested restoring the longstanding version until/if other proposals are made. But since all the other editors (like previously) haven't provided a rationale for not including massacres or reverting with no sufficient reason, I guess that's why the longstanding version still stands (no pun intended).
Btw, the OP of this discussion was one of the blindly reverting people, providing no valid revert reason for even removing massacres from alot shorter desc, see diff. And yet GhostInTheMachine is still here, opening a discussion about an issue that led to their tban from this article. And I find it odd that according to them, the shortdesc issue is "oh it's just too long now". What was the issue with this shortdesc that you reverted? It's short, lot shorter than the current one, and had no issues you claim now. Yet you still reverted it, removing massacres from it, without providing any valid reason. Forgive me, but after that, I'm a bit skeptical that your only concern is the length of the shortdesc. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 07:57, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ZaniGiovanni, please stop pinging me to this talk page for non-urgent matters. Just run the RfC and be done with it. I'm not particularly interested in holding everyone's hands here. El_C 14:45, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2021

"Simultaneously, the Turkish nationalist movement carried out massacres and deportations in order to eliminate native Christian populations—a continuation of the Armenian genocide and other ethnic cleansing operations during World War I.[59] These campaigns resulted in the creation of the Republic of Turkey." gives the reader the illusion that the Republic of Turkey was created because of the massacres. Furthermore, this part should have a part that shows that this part of the text is at the very least contested.

"[...] These campaigns resulted in the creation of the Republic of Turkey. Simultaneously, the Turkish nationalist movement carried out deportation and assimilation campaigns in order to create a more homogenous population—a continuation of the alleged Armenian genocide and other ethnic cleansing operations during World War I." can be used as a better edit. 176.55.110.144 (talk) 09:04, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Heartmusic678 (talk) 16:16, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Short description 2

Another month and the short description is still far too long.
A Short description should be short – see WP:SDSHORT.
Also, a Short description should not attempt to define the article's subject – see WP:SDNOTDEF.
A Short description exists to clarify which article has been found by a search.
As such, dates do help and details of what happened do not — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 16:04, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:SDCONTENT, The short description is part of the article content, and is subject to the normal rules on content, including Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. FDW777 (talk) 17:05, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Short description proposals

Current short description consists of 97 characters (114 spaces included). This is more than the double of max. limit set by WP:SDSHORT. Therefore, I am proposing new SDs to choose from with character numbers noted on the right-hand side. I hope that we can create a consensus to choose the most appropriate one.

Current: Series of wars and massacres by the Turkish National Movement, culminating in the creation of the Turkish republic (97/114)

  1. Series of wars and massacres by the Turkish National Movement (52/61)
  2. Series of wars by the Turkish National Movement (40/47)
  3. Wars and massacres by the Turkish National Movement (44/51)
  4. Wars and massacres in Anatolia (26/30)
  5. Series of wars in Anatolia (22/26)
  6. Series of wars in Anatolia in 1919-1923 (33/39)

Best regards.--John the Janitor (talk) 11:29, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The continuation of the Armenian genocide and genocides against other ethnic groups

This news does not become a genocide because it is introduced to the USA with the pressure of only a few Armenian and Greek channels. There was no genocide in the Turkish War of Independence. The Greeks started the fire, which the Greeks called the Izmir genocide.Do not believe such lies. Armenians and Greeks massacred Turks in the Turkish War of Independence 85.99.159.253 (talk) 08:08, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia summarizes what independent reliable sources state, and many of them state that the term genocide applies to what occurred to the Armenians. The article Armenian genocide denial covers the opposing viewpoint- which is an integral part of the founding of the Turkish nation, taught in their schools, and as such is likely difficult to accept for citizens of Turkey. You are free to believe what you wish, but that does not change what sources state. 331dot (talk) 10:18, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Short description 4

The short description is still far too long. Please deal with the problem — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 17:24, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You are tbanned from this article. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 19:58, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Categories