The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There was a lot of debate about how to interpret WP:SIGCOV and WP:SIRS. Ultimately a clear majority came down in favor of the position that considered the coverage lacked significance, due to various combinations of being brief, in local outlets, or about routine matters. A few participants supported merging to Pike Place Market as an alternative to deletion, but they were not able to build a consensus for that. RL0919 (talk) 21:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Daily Dozen Doughnut Company[edit]

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Daily Dozen Doughnut Company (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Brochure advertising article for generic doughnut shop. Fails WP:NCORP, WP:SIRS, WP:PROMO, WP:AUD. WP:DEL4, and WP:DEL14 scope_creepTalk 03:06, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Scope creep:I'd suggest striking "admin" from the above as it is not relevant to the source analysis, which should stand or fall on its own merits. Jahaza (talk) 19:45, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Just to say but I did not expect for this to happen when I nominated this article for DYK. Onegreatjoke (talk) 19:39, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! EEng 20:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I am partly to blame for 'poking the bear' KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 20:23, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely. It's all your fault. Off with his head! EEng 20:51, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Off with his head!
Source assessment table:
Source Independent? Reliable? Significant coverage? Count source toward GNG?
The Greatest Places to Eat in Seattle’s Greatest Tourist Trap Eater Jun 5, 2019 Yes Yes No Reads in its entirety: The promise of hot mini doughnuts means a constant queue at Daily Dozen Doughnut Company in the Economy Market. It’s fun to watch the little pale blobs float along a river of hot oil in the automatic Donut Robot fryer, two by two — getting flipped halfway down the line — until they’re golden brown on both sides. Sharing a brown paper bag of sprinkle-topped or powdered sugar doughnuts with someone is cool, especially if the doughnuts are hot.

Per WP:CORPDEPTH, this is an example of trivial coverage, i.e. inclusion in lists of similar organizations, particularly in "best of"

✘ No
Seattle's Best Donut Shops Thrillist Feb 8, 2016 Yes Yes No one of a list, entry reading in its entirety: All day long inside a tiny stall in the heart of the always-teeming Pike Place Market miniature rings of dough are plucked from a bath of hot oil by an aging Donut Robot (Mark II!) and served almost immediately, still hot and deliciously greasy. Sure, they only come in four flavors -- plain, tossed in sugar or cinnamon, and chocolate-sprinkled -- but they are so good you'll want at least... wait for it... a dozen!

Per WP:CORPDEPTH, this is an example of trivial coverage, i.e. inclusion in lists of similar organizations, particularly in "best of"

✘ No
Delightful Doughnuts in the Seattle Area Eater Seattle Sep 23, 2022 Yes Yes No Reads in its entirety: Right in the center of Pike Place Market is the iconic Daily Dozen Doughnut Company, slinger of mini doughnuts fresh out of the onsite fryer. Market shoppers lured by the ubiquitous smells of fried, sugary dough form long lines to wait for a bag of these doughnuts. Grab a half or full dozen of powdered, plain or rotating seasonal specials while they’re hot.

Per WP:CORPDEPTH, this is an example of trivial coverage, i.e. inclusion in lists of similar organizations, particularly in "best of"

✘ No
Fodor's Seattle [1] Yes Yes No Reads in its entirety: If you're visiting Pikes Place Market, Daily Dozen Donuts has adorable, made-while-you-watch minidonuts dusted in powdered sugar.
 • Comment by EEng: (This one's especially interesting because it doesn't even suggest you go out of your way, but if you happen to be visiting Pikes Place anyway, well then sure, since you're already there...) 		✘ No
Hole-y-grail: A taste of Seattle’s best doughnut shops, Sunset Sept 22, 2004 Yes Yes No Reads in its entirety: Owner Barbara Elza started making doughnuts at this lively stand in Pike Place Market 15 years ago, and she fell in love with the job. “It’s a big family here,” she says. “We know how to have fun.” Locals and visitors have a great time watching the “Donut Robot” ― a machine invented in the 1930s―turn out fresh, hot miniature doughnuts in plain, sugar, and cinnamon-sugar. The frosted “fancies” tend to disappear quickly. “Kids are stronger than you think,” Elza says. “They can really muscle their way to the front.”

Per WP:CORPDEPTH, this is an example of trivial coverage, i.e. inclusion in lists of similar organizations, particularly in "best of"

✘ No
Serious Eats [2] by Ed Levine Yes Yes ? Reads in its entirety: While much of Seattle may have a soft spot for Top Pot Doughnuts, with locations all over the city, we prefer this little Pike Place Market stall. Sure, you can get fresh doughtnuts at plenty of shops --- but at Daily Dozen, mini doughnuts are actually plucked from the Donut Robot II conveyor belt. (That may mean a little more oil, but we won't complain.) Tossed into a brown paper bag with sugar, sprinkles, or cinnamon,, they're handed over the counter. They're so hot that when you bite one open, steam pours from its interior. Moist, squishy, crunchy with sugar -- the little guys tend to disappear before you've even walked to the next stall. (Skip the frosted ones. Straight up sugar is where it's at.
 • checkYuser:Cielquiparle Context of this paragraph: Inclusion in the chapter "A Half Dozen Donuts We Love" about 6 of the best doughnuts nationwide. Listed second (which may or may not be a rank, but it's prominent). Each of the six companies gets one sizeable paragraph. This one is 8 sentences long and includes a detailed description. Facts we learn:
  • *One popular competitor in Seattle is Top Pot Doughnuts, a chain, but Serious Eats prefers Daily Dozen
  • *DD's differentiators include the fact that its doughnuts are "mini" and plucked from a Donut Robot conveyor belt
  • *Its process may result in a little more oil
  • *Mini doughnuts are tossed in a brown paper bag with sugar, sprinkles, or cinnamon
  • *Mini doughnuts are served so hot that steam rises when you bite in
  • *Texture is "moist, squishy, crunchy with sugar"
  • *Not uncommon to end up eating them before you walk to next stall
  • *Serious Eats recommends sugar-covered mini doughnuts over the frosted ones
    EEng not approved: So laughable as a proposed source of notability that words fail.

    Note: Notable author Ed Levine
 ? Unknown
A market full of fresh experiences, Vancouver Sun Sept 16, 1997 Yes Yes No Reads in its entirety: It's home to such venerable establishments as the Daily Dozen Doughnut Co., where owner Barbara Elza processes 16 kilograms of flour daily in her doughnut robot. Children crowd round Elza's booth to watch as the tiny doughnuts travel along an oily road in rows of four before plopping down at their destinations -- a tin display plate. ✘ No
Seattle's best doughnuts, Seattle Post-Intelligencer Apr 11, 2016 Yes Yes No Reads in its entirety: The famous Pike Place Market post is a family affair that serves up miniature doughnuts to countless tourists and the locals who know to flock to this gem. ✘ No
The Stranger Yes AGF Yes AGF No Reads in its entirety: To mark to occasion, Daily Dozen Doughnut Company is giving away free doughnuts and hot beverages to the first 115 people who stop by their special tent in Pike Place Market on Wednesday, August 17. ✘ No
Seattle Weekly Yes AGF Yes AGF No Reads in its entirety: In such a paradise, Daily Dozen Doughnut Company in Pike Place Market (93 Pike Place, 467-7769) would be trumpeted as the essential snack of the Emerald City. The hot, freshly made little gems are so deceptively nonthreatening and bite-sized that you tend to eat them like popcorn, which, in the ugly real world, can be the cause of a disturbing revelation when you look down into your paper bag and realize you’ve mowed your way through 12 doughnuts without so much as a burp. Powdered, chocolate-iced, sprinkled, or—our favorite—plain and golden, the goodies are a steal at a couple of bucks per dozen. But don’t say we didn’t warn you. ✘ No
Bon Appétit america-s-best-donuts-part-2 by Andrew Knowlton Yes Yes No one item in a list so long it was created in two parts Not on the list of best donuts, rather a subsequent list of 57 donut shops one or more readers wrote in about, angry their favorite shop wasn't on the first list.

Note: Notable author Andrew Knowlton 		✘ No
Pike Place Market Recipes [3] Yes AGF Yes AGF No Two isolated bare mentions reading: If there's one pervasive morning smell in the Pike Place Market, it's cinnamon. The Daily Dozen Doughnut Company douses hot miniature fried orbs with cinnamon sugar, to the pure thrill of kids and adults alike and After a bite (or six) at Daily Dozen Doughnut Company, the Economy Market stall that churns out piping-hot cinnamon-sugar mini doughnuts all morning, you'll get a quick tour of MarketSpice ... ✘ No
Report: Microsoft, Boeing stash money offshore to dodge tax bills, KOMO-TV Feb 6, 2013 Yes Yes No really not even a bare mention, just identifying shop owner commenting on a completely different topic: "This is cheating. When you misrepresent yourself, you're cheating," said Barbara Elza, owner of Daily Dozen Donut Company, a Pike Place Market mainstay for nearly 30 years. "I don't even have enough to meet my expenses this month, let alone stash something offshore."
 • Side comment by EEng: Putting this source in the article is cheating. When you misrepresent a source like this, as if it has anything at all to do with the subject of the article, it's cheating. 		✘ No
The Donut: History, Recipes, and Lore from Boston to Berlin [4] Yes Yes No Page 72 reads in its entirety: "In Seattle’s Pike Place Market, a tiny donut stand called Daily Dozen sells the freshest donuts you may ever buy.They drop down in a continuous stream from a Belshaw model little bigger than a toaster oven. They’re hot, greasy, and addictive."Page X adds this comment which seems more authentic: "check out the warm-from-the-fryer mini donuts sold at a little stand in the Pike Place Market (a little overhyped I decided after eating a half dozen of the plain and three or four of the bacon-topped variety"). ✘ No
Food Lovers Guide to Seattle by Laurie Wolf Yes Yes No Reads in its entirety: A doughnut shop that has been around for over 20 years and still has a line almost all day long, the charm of this place is in its simplicity: fresh, hot mini doughnuts served in a brown paper bag, heating the roof of your mouth on a chilly day, the aroma taunting you as you wait in line. The doughnuts come in dozens or half dozens. The flavors are plain, powdered, cinnamon, or sprinkled (chocolate fudge with sprinkles). The powdered sugar and sprinkled come cold, but the other two come hot.

Note: Notable author Laurie Wolf 		✘ No
100 Things to Do in Seattle Before You Die [5] Yes Yes No Reads in its entirety: And don't forget to indulge snacky sweet cravings on the way out with minidonuts from the Daily Dozen Donut Company. But they're fun-sized, so go crazy with at least a half dozen. Better yet, make it a dozen, because when they're made in front of you, self-deprivation loses. And, they're cheap! ✘ No
Seattle Post-Intelligencer: Have you tried all 26 of these iconic Seattle bites? [6] Yes Yes No Reads in its entirety: USA Today mentioned this place as a foodie stop in the Pike Place Market, affirming that hot doughnuts in a paper sack are sublime. ✘ No
Thrillist Daily Dozen Doughnut Co Yes Yes No Reads in its entirety: Perfectly fried-up and crispy, the mini donuts at Daily Dozen are a famous staple of Pike Place Market and ensure you'll be anything but mini after you've made them part of your morning routine. ✘ No
Where to Get Some Delightful Doughnuts for Takeout in the Seattle Area Eater Seattle Jul 8, 2020 Yes Yes No Reads in its entirety: When one just won’t do, it’s easy enough to nab a whole sack of hot mini doughnuts pulled from bubbling oil by a vintage Doughnut Robot at this famous Pike Place Market stall. ✘ No
Our flag at the Market: Doughnut vendor ruffles feathers displaying pride banner Seattle Gay News Oct 26, 2012 Yes Yes ?  • Comment by EEng: Completely disagree that this is sigcov, which requires that sources address the topic directly and in detail. The only thing this article says about the subject of this article is: For 23 years Barbara Eliza has been serving up warm donuts at Seattle's biggest, busiest tourist spot, Pike Place Market. Her business, the Daily Dozen Doughnut Company, caters to locals and visitors alike, as well as other market vendors who open in the early morning. Period. Everything else is details of the flag dispute. If there was more coverage of the dispute, then it might be notable, but even then that doesn't make the firm notable 'cause, ya know, WP:NOTINHERITED. But anyway the dispute isn't notable either, apparently.
 • Comment by Another Believer: checkY I would consider this significant coverage.
 • Another comment by EEng: I cannot say that you are joking in writing that. I can only say that I hope you're joking.Comment by Cielquiparle: Completely disagree with the above.
 • checkYuser:Cielquiparle A prolonged controversy is exactly the type of topic we expect to see covered in SIGCOV about an organization's history (per WP:NCORP). The flag dispute *is* the story! Yes, we need to discount Elza's quotes (direct/indirect), but in addition to that, the Seattle Gay News includes its own reporting on the controversy, based on fact-finding and sources including neighboring businesses and the Pike Place Market Preservation and Development Authority, which lend additional perspective to the controversy (which was also covered by The Stranger, in this case both a primary and a secondary source).)
EEng says: Unfortunate that you invoked NCORP, which specifically lists, under Examples of trivial coverage, coverage of purely local events, incidents, controversies. Oh well, try again. 		? Unknown
The heart of Seattle: Pike Place Market brims with great food options Chicago Tribune, Aug 4 2013 Yes Yes ? Reads in its entirety: You'll see many cameras pointing through the foggy glass here. They're all trained on the "doughtnut robot", a mesmerizing contraption that plots rings of batter into the oil. Watch as the batter morphs into doughnuts as travels down the oil river like the Jungle Cruise at Disneyland, flipped once, and again a minute later, golden and bulbous onto cooling racks If you get a batch of these mini doughnuts hot from the fryer, dusted with cinnamon sugar, bite in immediately and experience an act defying physical law -- fried dough collapsing unto itself, into nothing.
 • checkYuser:bluerasberry approved
 • User:EEng not approved -- the idea that this description of a machine found in every donut shop in the world constitutes significant coverage of this particular shop that owns one is preposterous
 • checkY user:Cielquiparle approved
Strongly disagree with EEng. I will add this to the article now, but the point is, a key argument for notability is precisely this: That Daily Dozen Doughnut Company is one of the key examples of the classic early model Donut Machines, per at least two of the donut-focused books.
EEng still not approved, and it's always amusing when sources are preposterously misrepresented It's not a "classic early model donut machine", but merely (as already mentioned) the manufacturer's current bestseller [7], and there's nothing to indicate that Daily Dozen is some "key example" -- above (as already mentioned) is the entirety of what the source says about the company. 		? Unknown
Donuts by John T. Edge, pp. 30–35 Yes Yes ?  •
checkY from Cielquiparle. Chapter 3, "Man and Machine", ~6 pages mostly focusing on Daily Dozen Doughnut Company as a key example of the Donut Robot Mark II from Belshaw ("an American icon") in action, that is not being used in a prison. Also includes a description of a key employee.
 • Above strained hyperbole thoroughly demolished below at #edge. 		? Unknown
Pike Market merchants have theatrical flair The Gazette, co-author Monique Polak Yes Yes No The part focused on Daily Dozen: Originally the stable for farmers horses, the Economy Market Building earned its name because it was the discount or day-old section of the market. Today, it's home to such venerable establishments as the Daily Dozen Doughnut Co., where owner Barbara Elza processes 35 pounds of flour daily in her doughnut robot. Children crowd round Elza's booth to watch as the tiny doughnuts travel along an oily road in rows of four before plopping down at their destination - a tin display plate. This is not WP:CORPDEPTH.

Note: Notable co-author Monique Polak

Per WP:CORPDEPTH, the significance is not determined by the reputation of the source. For example, a 400-word article in The Village Voice is a lot more significant than a single-sentence mention in The New York Times. However, the reputation of the source does help to determine whether the source is reliable and independent.

✘ No
No Pride At Pike Place Market The Stranger Blogs (Jun 24, 2009) Yes AGF Yes AGF No This 5-graf blog post is trivial coverage of purely local events, incidents, controversies. ✘ No
Doughnuts + Punks = Love The Stranger (Feb 7, 2008) Yes AGF Yes AGF No There is a graf with a brief description of the donuts, a graf briefly mentioning employee hygiene, and 3 grafs focused on one employee (e.g. "The object of my affection, more so than the doughnuts, is a punk."). Per WP:CORPDEPTH, this appears more focused on trivial coverage of the upcoming departure of personnel, (e.g. "When spring hits Seattle, J-Sin will be one step closer to attaining his dream, and I'll be out of a seven-year crush") without significant coverage of the company. ✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using ((source assess table)).
What I'm saying is that its clickbait site with very strong links to social media, that can only exist via the online advertising dollar. The Daily Dozen Doughnut Company has paid them to advertise, so the reference is not independent, more so its not significant. In both cases its fails the notability criteria of WP:SIRS, failing WP:NCORP. You might say something like "that you don't know for sure that they have paid", but nothing that on that site is self-generated. It is not a generator of textual content, like we are for example, or substack for example. Everything on that site has been paid, all of it. It is advertising platform, first and foremost to offer a service to those who want reach a mass audience. It very very light-weight content for those want to find somewhere quick to get some eats. scope_creepTalk 14:46, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, ok? Sheesh, so much hostility for something as simple as "Naomi Tomky also included Daily Dozen in Thrillist's 2016 list of the 50 'best things to eat and drink' at Pike Place Market". (shrug) Unless you can point to where Thrillist has been deemed inappropriate for Wikipedia, I say keep the text/ref in the entry. ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:55, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not hostile, truly. I do a lot of these types of Afds and they tend to be the same kind of thing. I'm interested in a honest discussion. The refs are very poor, transient types with no real intellectual depth. The source table shows that. The article will be either kept by a mountain of keep votes with no interest in examaning the coverage or it will an intellectual discussion of the coverage and what it means and it will be deleted or possibly kept because they're is genuine coverage. That is what I'm aiming for. scope_creepTalk 15:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. Well, this discussion will be most honest when the source assessment actually represents all sources used in the article as well as those which are not currently used in the article. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:16, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How many doughnut stands in the world have "intellectually deep" (???) coverage? KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 15:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
AB, if you have sources that aren't used, use them and add them to the table. But honestly, why would you use sources that don't support notability and leave those that do out of the article? Valereee (talk) 15:35, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is been a concerted effort to add sources to the article since the last Afd, which has resulted in the source assessment table growing substantially, its now about three times the orginal size, yet there is still no decent coverage. scope_creepTalk 15:43, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Where is said 3-fold expansion? There's a source assessment above, and anther on the article's talk page, but I don't see any 3x expansion. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:49, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Another Believer: I missed this. From the previous Afd. The table is now three times the size. It could be four times the size if I added those non-rs refs that you have added to the article. scope_creepTalk 10:08, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, could be much larger if the table assessed the other half of the sources used in the article. Never mind all the citations with inaccessible URLs. ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:59, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to improve the article's text or identify problematic quotes on the article's talk page. You've commented on the entry's text, but what say you about the amount of secondary coverage the topic has received? This is AfD after all. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:44, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think this article is beyond rescue. And yes, there is not enough in-depth secondary coverage. The Banner talk 16:46, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you think this article is beyond rescue? You've done an exhaustive search of missing sources? ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:49, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
1) My reasons are stated above. 2) Why should I do an "exhaustive search of missing sources"? You should have done that when writing the article. The Banner talk 17:14, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, good grief. The purpose of AfD is to determine if a topic has been discussed enough in secondary sourcing. If all we're doing is assessing the currently used sources, we're not doing a complete assessment. You can imply I've done wrong here but this article's already survived an AfD discussion so clearly I've not been alone in my thinking. Listen, this is a chance for the community to have a serious discussion about notability of this topic. I have no problem with this process. But if editors aren't willing to do an exhaustive search of missing sources then we're doing a disservice to Wikipedia. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:20, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why should others do the research that you were supposed to do before writing the article? Effectively, you are now criticising your own work. The Banner talk 19:11, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think asking for a complete source assessment is an unfair ask at AfD. Also, I'm doing lots of research. I've expanded the article further. I've shared more sources on the article's talk page. I've noted the source assessment table is not complete. I don't see how any of this is criticizing my own work. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See also WP:CONTN KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 22:10, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep for the simple fact that it was a DYK article. That has to count for something towards notability; otherwise, why make an article and get it upgraded to DYK if it's only going to get deleted. The author has to submit the article for DYK and has to make changes that various other editors suggest to make it DYK-ready. It's a frustrating process I've done myself a few times. I'm on the other side of the fence now, looking at deleting it. If we're going to keep doing this, we should really look at GNG criteria when the DYK nomination comes up. Oaktree b (talk) 16:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Someone needs to add "Keep -- It appeared on DYK" to WP:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. EEng 16:37, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Oaktree b, it's not "a DYK article". In fact it's because it was nominated at DYK that we ended up here. Someone during the review process raised the question of notability.
But even if it had appeared, why would that matter w/re notability? Neither DYK nor GA assess an article's notability. Even FA doesn't, but it would be highly unlikely anyone could write an FA without significant coverage. This seems like you're saying, "You can bulletproof your article from being AfD'd by nominating it for DYK". Valereee (talk) 17:24, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's more to express frustration in Wikipedia policies, which isn't really what's being discussed here I suppose. Oaktree b (talk) 17:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So we're in agreement that your keep !vote is contrary to policy. EEng 19:11, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is only one policy, and it is Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 22:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
EEng 19:06, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are hundreds of vendors at Pike Place Market, past and present. I can assure you some are more famous than others. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure that's true. It may also be true that none of them meets WP:GNG. EEng 19:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In theory, sure, but I'm confident some of the vendors are notable. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:57, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Being confident some thing or things are notable, without having sources in hand to back that up, is why we're in this mess. EEng 04:42, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The reason those things are important is because reliable sources make them so by covering them significantly. It is outside the scope of Wikipedia editors to second-guess journalists for finding some things attention worthy and not others. Also, it is common sense to recognize that this particular donut shop is extraordinary among all the other ones in the world, as this one gets reviewed in many publications when others never do. This place is extraordinary and the sources establish that it is extraordinary. I confirm that you are accurately repeating the reasons why this shop is extraordinary, even if you personally seem unimpressed. I may be biased; I was in Seattle's competitive donut eating circuit for a few years and we were all crazy about this place. Bluerasberry (talk) 20:01, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
outside the scope of Wikipedia editors to second-guess journalists for finding some things attention worthy and not others – It's not whether journalists have given attention, but the level of attention that counts. For example, the many, many, many sources adduced fail, almost to a one, multiple of WP:NCORP's requirement that reviews...
Be significant: brief and routine reviews (including Zagat) do not qualify. Significant reviews are where the author has personally experienced or tested the product and describes their experiences in some depth, provides broader context, and draws comparisons with other products. Reviews that narrowly focus on a particular product or function without broader context (e.g. review of a particular meal without description of the restaurant as a whole) do not count as significant sources. Reviews that are too generic or vague to make the determination whether the author had personal experience with the reviewed product are not to be counted as significant sources. Further, the reviews must be published outside of purely local or narrow (highly specialized) interest publications.
You argument seems to come down to that we should keep this article as a gesture toward countering WP:Systemic bias against donut shops. EEng 20:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@EEng: Yes, countering systemic bias against local culture is my argument. I do not know of such a thing existing in wiki policy, and I think it would be good to develop this donut shop as a case contributing to a general rule.
Here is what is unusual about this case:
  • I think this is a 1 in 1000 donut shop. There are 10-20,000 donut shops in the United States, and I feel this one is special.
  • Two sorts of evidence why this one is special - lots of sources about this one, absence of sources about others
  • The evidence that there is an absence of sources about the others is Category:Doughnut shops in the United States. I think everything in this category is a corporate chain with source coverage coming from their corporate PR machines. As you say, wiki has systemic bias against non-chains, because Daily Dozen Doughnuts is just a counter with room for one employee in the shop at a time.
  • We have sources for this shop. I confirm they are not all conventional WP:RS due to some being short and only giving basic donut info, but in my opinion we pass WP:42 with enough other conventional sources and there there are lots of sources which are short reviews.
  • About those short reviews - these are not routine travel or restaurant guide reviews covering all the places in a list, but directed personal reviews which chose this place while excluding the many other possible options. The reviews are not just local, but include profiles from cities far from Seattle, and also include several reviewers who themselves are notable by Wikipedia standards. The reason why Wikipedia does not have guidelines for recognizing such sources is that this is uncommon attention, uncommon reviews, for a 1 in 1000 situation
I think this donut shop would make a good test case for developing a 1 in 1000 rule for addressing systemic bias in general. The bias to counter is corporate marketing versus more natural journalism for remarkable local landmarks. Some possible rules for recognizing WP:RSs for "1 in 1000s" could be appearance in non list reviews (like we know there are 100 donut shops in Seattle, but this is the one that gets reviews, and the absence of reviews for other places is a factor in determining the RS), reviews by notable authors (notability is not inherited, but experts do have weight that unnamed freelance journalists do not), identification of bias in Wikipedia (here the category is entirely corporate, when this shop is independent), and someone making a case that a particular item is extraordinary (the existence of this article is not going to drive a flood of donut shop articles, because few are like this one).
Bluerasberry (talk) 15:29, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ooh I would love a 1 in 1000 rule! Category:Restaurants in Portland, Oregon and its subs have 451 articles and List of restaurants in Portland, Oregon lists 312 current ones. Tripadvisor suggests there are 2991 restaurants in the city, while this says Portland's metro has 24 restaurants per 10,000 households, which suggests about 2,000 restaurants. Hard to account for number of locations in a chain which TA counts separately, including national chains, and WP doesn't, but I don't think more than 1 in 10 dining establishments are notable. The real bias is suggesting that 1 out of 6 US restaurants is in Portland, and I don't think the solution is to make thousands more articles for the rest of the country based just on local listicles and routine local business coverage that lack the directed personal or wider-audience reviews like so many of these. Reywas92Talk 16:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Out of curiosity, did you conclude there are 451 entries with or without duplicates? I understand and respect the point you're making, but many of the articles are in multiple Portland restaurant subcategories so your total might be slightly off if duplicates are being counted. ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:49, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
None of these sources are reliable. Chicago Tribune is a small profile, and per long consensus doesn't meet WP:SIRS. It is not signicant coverage. Changing the source table doesn't change that fact. scope_creepTalk 20:03, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What are you talking about none of these sources are reliable? Can you please share where any of the sources used in the article have been deemed unreliable? ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:06, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think scope_creep really means they're not significant. EEng 20:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't particularly care which way the AfD goes, but this !vote just makes me think we maybe don't need that many articles about donut shops. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 21:56, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If this AfD goes the way of the deletionists, then no donut shops would have any articles, save the likes of Dunkin' Donuts! KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 22:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reminds me that I wrote the Duck Donuts article a few years back. Good thing that's not been threatened with deletion KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 22:24, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I find it a bit strange that you keep accusing other people of being deletionists, @Kingoflettuce. Your AfD stats show that for most of your delete votes, the result ended as keep. (But in fact your overall hit rate at AfD is less than 50%, so maybe it's just that you're not assessing notability very well in general.) Valereee (talk) 16:38, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lol Valereee those are very skewed stats coz of a impetuous string of noms from 2016 (but just LOOK at the actual articles and tell me if we're comparing like with like here). Give me a break... It's a really a shame that you think dissecting a well-written article to DEATH and pulling out all the stats and blue-links in the world will actually make the encyclopedia a better place. No net good will come out of this AfD, and instead there'll just be lots of time wasted on both sides. Which is why I usually don't dabble in AfDs, it's a cesspool of teeth-gnashing wranglers. Congrats on deleting this article, hooray. KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 21:34, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your hit rate from 2017 forward isn't much better. The article isn't deleted yet, and I don't take any joy in AfDing someone's good-faith work. Valereee (talk) 21:47, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then so be it: WP:N is WP:N. Of course, you can always make a proposal for WP:NDONUTSHOP if you wish. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 22:33, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Bluerasberry, one sentence just simply isn't sigcov, and unless that sentence provides some indication of cultural importance, it doesn't support notability. I get it; I write a lot about food and restaurants. It can be frustrating when you just know a place must be notable but you can't prove it to WP's satisfaction. This shop is definitely locally notable. I suspect in the end -- maybe not now, maybe later when someone can get to a library -- we'll be able to show that it's notable. But the only way I'd accept a single sentence as an indication of notability in the absence of sigcov is if some super reliable source was saying, "The Daily Dozen's donuts have traditionally been served at Seattle weddings and bar mitzvahs since 1970; the absence of these donuts is typically considered insulting to the guests." Or something like that. And in the case of a US food, it's exceedingly unlikely that something like that wouldn't have generated actual sigcov. We see that in the developing world, not in the US where food journalism and academic study is huge. Valereee (talk) 22:11, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I much prefer this comment to your mentioning of "hit rates" as if that means anything. FWIW, I don't consider you a "D" (and didn't know it wuz pejorative, sorry, just thought it reflected obvious tendencies!) KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 22:21, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Top Pot Doughnuts 2009 Eating Contest certificate
@Valereee: I agree with you about the mismatch between Daily Dozen Doughnuts and Wikipedia guidelines - our existing guidelines neither are designed to be inclusive of some of the sources about this donut shop, nor are they designed to discount or exclude the unusual sources that we have for this case. I make a case elsewhere in this discussion for Wikipedia to recognize "1 in 1000" items when the sources for such items exist and are not typical.
Thanks for trying to bring uniformity to Wikipedia articles on food and restaurants. Credentials do not carry so much influence in Wikipedia, but as a matter of personal attestation, I have experience in Seattle's gorging scene as demonstrated by the certificate here. Daily Dozen was not a place that needed to host eating competitions because so many people were already stuffing their faces with their donuts, and we fast eaters already knew that. My unpublished experience should not be an influence in Wikipedia directly, but indirectly, I can confirm that it is reasonable for anyone to look at the Daily Dozen reviews and find them meaningful, and also to observe the lack of reviews for other donut shops and to find that absence meaningful also. Wikipedia sometimes has trouble recognizing the significance of the absence of sources, and as a serious donut eater with local knowledge, I confirm that plausibly Daily Dozen is really getting more reviews than other places, and reviews for other places may not exist to be found. Bluerasberry (talk) 15:56, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The percentage of times your !vote matches a reasonable outcome means a lot. There are times when a particular AfD doesn't get much attention, or that it is closed by an inexperienced closer who doesn't assess the !votes well, but unless those situations represent a majority of your AfD participation, matching the final outcome is what most people look at to determine whether you know what you're doing at AfD. Valereee (talk) 21:44, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
this screams !VOTER SUPPRESSION KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 11:51, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't need to be patronised Valereee or have somone smugly insinuate that 'I don't know what I'm doing' based on some stats KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 11:52, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
By the same token....... Why isn't anyone mentioning AB's wonderful hit rate of 84%? Shouldn't he very clearly know what he's doing? Right, this must be a rare exception. It's rather silly, this whole 'hit rate' justification. Problem of induction, anyone? Let's just stick to talking about this article and its merits or lack thereof. There is absolutely no need to start invoking 'hit rates'...... KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 12:00, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Re: "I suspect in the end -- maybe not now, maybe later when someone can get to a library -- we'll be able to show that it's notable." Gah! This is so frustrating to read... ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:24, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
AB, it shouldn't be. It's simply asking for the research to be done up front. I've occasionally moved to article space before I was sure -- Zhang Dongju is an example -- but there's usually a very good reason. In that case, it was that she was a Chinese academic and I suspected transliteration made a difference in how many sources I could find. Valereee (talk) 21:48, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article is beautifully written, but unless there is WP:THREE references that satisfies WP:NCORP, it is a business after-all, then it would be non-notable. scope_creepTalk 20:53, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There's a lot wrong here which I don't have time to address right now. I'll just say the source assessment table above has 21 entries. The article has 32 sources and I've identified several others on the article's talk page, some of which require database access so I can't just paste URLs. I don't understand the point in presenting an incomplete source assessment in an AfD discussion. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well then the solution is obvious: add the sources to the table, with quotations so we can all see exactly what's said and judge it for ourselves. EEng 23:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Kingoflettuce: By consensus, WP:NCORP applies to companies since 2017, not WP:GNG. Keep that in mind. If your going around saying it to folk, you need to stop doing it now. scope_creepTalk 13:18, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
you're*, since we're in the company of pedants KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 13:26, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've got no hesitation, at the point, in saying you're blatantly lying you appear to have examined the sources without benefit of your reading glasses, as you have elsewhere as well. Serious Eats says absolutely nothing about Daily Dozen being, as you put it, "one of its top 6 doughnut makers nationwide". All there is is a headline on a page reading: "A half-dozen doughnuts we love", followed by a list of shops. Period. And BTW, the book's description reads "A foodie's guide culled from the popular SeriousEats.com online community" -- in other words, it's user-generated content. Jesus, what poppycock. EEng 20:17, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But it's been edited by Ed Levine and the Serious Eats editorial team before being compiled in a book. So no, it's not the equivalent of straight user-generated content online. Cielquiparle (talk) 22:09, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Uh huh. Well, unless you're contending that the Serious Eats editorial team flew to Seattle, Lexington (Ky.), New Mexico, Louisiana, and Salt Lake City in order to visit these reader-recommended shops themselves, this fails NCORP's requirement that Significant reviews are where the author has personally experienced or tested the product ... Reviews that are too generic or vague to make the determination whether the author had personal experience with the reviewed product are not to be counted as significant sources. EEng 06:25, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is absolutely and patently incorrect. Highking has been shown many many times, that he has the correct interpretation of WP:NCORP as he is a specialist in that area. To say otherwise would break WP:AGF. Your interpretation was the reason that NCORP was rewritten 5-6 years ago, in the first place. NCORP reflects exactly via WP:SIRS what is WP:GNG, namely secondary sources are needed to establish notability. Its the same case as somebody talking about the subject to somebody else, who are not connected to the original subject. So what the company does, is much much less important than what people say about, as its self-generated information from the company. Stuff that comes from the company is primary. That attitude you have, regarding "major events" was the orginal consensus in 2017 but that is no longer consensus, now. So your essentially putting yourself outside established consensus which is the wrong place to be. Lastly, robotic machines are very common, all over the world. scope_creepTalk 13:14, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the context and your interpretation. Agree to disagree. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:19, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is not interpretation, it is experience, actually been and read and took part in thousands of Afd with Highking, so that won't wash. scope_creepTalk 13:24, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"thousands" KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 13:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just so it's clear, I actually also often agree with HighKing, and I think it's probably mutually frustrating when we don't agree, so I really did mean this in the most respectful way possible. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:36, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
HighKing = 3524 AfDs, 92% hit rate. Scope creep = 3750 AfDs, 88% hit rate. So yeah, not unlikely they've participated in a couple thousand of the same AfDs. Valereee (talk) 16:45, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should still welcome new participants to AfD, though. Cielquiparle (talk) 18:03, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Of course we welcome new participants at AfD, just as we welcome them anywhere. What we'd like is if they'd learn policy. One great way to do that is to listen to the policy arguments of those who've done this literally hundreds of time more often than you have.
The use of the term "deletionist", unless someone describes themselves that way, is an assumption of bad faith, and accusations of it are counterproductive. This isn't a battleground, it's a collaborative project. There's also actually a pretty easy way to make sure your articles aren't AfD'd: find the sources to support notability first. Valereee (talk) 21:59, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Valereee Who used the "d" word? I certainly didn't. What is this even about? Cielquiparle (talk) 22:06, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Umimmak (talk) 17:36, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So completly ignoring the source analysis that has done up to this point. scope_creepTalk 22:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your analysis is not my analysis, each of which will be seemingly different from those created above. I can analyze sources myself, thank you. ɱ (talk) 23:24, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, not really. You have done exactly 7 Afd's and you don't have the experience, as yet. If you did, you would be railing against complete lack of quality here. scope_creepTalk 09:41, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lmao sure call me, one of the most prolific writers in my field, inexperienced. Not like experience can disqualify a user from partipating in an AfD vote. ɱ (talk) 17:37, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
MJ, but which would represent significant coverage? No one is questioning most of the sources as reliable. They're questioning the amount of coverage of the article subject. Valereee (talk) 19:35, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the Seattle Gay Times references, it an interview with the owner, putting up a pride flag. It fails WP:ORGIND, because it is not independent of the organisation.It is the business owner talking. It is not a WP:SECONDARY reference. The best you can say, again, is that it verifies the company exists and that is it. scope_creepTalk 22:59, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A news article does not fail independence because the subject of the story is interviewed, even extensively. While the article largely presents the owner's views, it does not do so exclusively, incorporating quotations from others as well as third-person reportage. It's not simply an interview with questions and responses. Jahaza (talk) 02:25, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it does. This is a business speaking the conversation is held about this business. WP:NCORP is the notability policy that deals with business, so the context is WP:ORGIND and it fails that policy. The owner it not independent from the business, so it is not independent per WP:SIRS. You seems to think that WP:GNG applies here, and interviews have some weight, which is incorrect. Here, they don't because, it is the business speaking. It is not independent. The rest of it is incidencental. scope_creepTalk 09:33, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Bluerasberry, re: I can confirm that it is reasonable for anyone to look at the Daily Dozen reviews and find them meaningful, and also to observe the lack of reviews for other donut shops and to find that absence meaningful also. Wikipedia sometimes has trouble recognizing the significance of the absence of sources, and as a serious donut eater with local knowledge, I confirm that plausibly Daily Dozen is really getting more reviews than other places, and reviews for other places may not exist to be found: Approximately 30% of Category:Doughnut shops in the United States are in Seattle or Portland. I know you guys like your donuts out there in the PNW, but that seems a little high. (FWIW, I think you inserted that reply in the wrong place, it now looks like I was replying to you.) Valereee (talk) 17:22, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I doubt it really matters. You've convinced yourself and your acolytes that this must be non-notable, so even those sources that have already been pointed out as significant coverage have been instinctively rejected as insignificant. And whoever disagrees clearly lacks experience and a perfect understanding of our sacrosanct guidelines. You're even insinuating that Another Believer does not understand what notability is about! KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 17:41, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I've been insulted many times the past few days. I've kind of become numb to it on Wikipedia, to be honest. Feels like a group showed up with pitchforks absolutely determined to delete this article, implying I have no clue what I'm doing. This is clearly an on-the-bubble case re: notability but there's no need for all the rude comments. Whatever happened to assuming good faith? I'm all for constructive discussions about notability but this has not been one of them. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    implying I have no clue what I'm doing – To be blunt, it's increasingly clear that that may very well be true. I picked a random one of your recent article creations, The Misfit (restaurant), and guess what? Of 24 citations, an astounding 16 are to Eater. For example:
    The Misfit’s avocado toast adds a layer of creaminess with fresh burrata, baby tomato, and crispy sourdough bread. If you’re gluten-free, The Misfit can accommodate that request, just let them know.
    That's Eater's "Contributor Keyla Vasconcellos" writing in 2015 on "13 Instagram-Worthy Avocado Toasts to Try Right Now in Los Angeles" [18]. Two years later Contributor Vasconcellos updated her readers with an expanded "17 Avocado Toasts Worth Eating and Instagramming in Los Angeles" [19], now reporting that
    The Misfit’s avocado toast adds a layer of creaminess with fresh burrata, baby tomato, and crispy sourdough bread. If gluten-free, The Misfit can accommodate that request, just let them know.
    Both of these are sources in the article. Let me repeat that: two utterly fucking trivial and completely identical two-sentence "reviews" have been stuffed into the article as "sources" to support the highly encyclopedic statement that "the menu has included avocado toast with burrata, tomato, and sourdough".
    Oh wait, sorry, correction: the second one leaves out the word you're. So I guess they're different. My apologies.
    So that's 2 of 16 from Eater. Hungry for more? OK, how about
    On Father's Day The Misfit offers dads any of the restaurant's 16 beers for just 10 cents. And, he can order as many as he would like at this price, no restrictions. [20] ("In 2011, The Misfit offered fathers select beers for 10 cents on Father's Day", the article gravely reports to Wikipedia's readers).
    I think that gives you the picture regarding the Eater. Of the remaining 8 sources, here are 4 in their entirety:
    • This darkly lit emporium of food, drink and fun is notable for the decent menu and phenomenal cocktails made from craftsman spirits. Set in a historic building decked out with a retro interior, it's busy from brunch to last call. [21]
    • The Misfit has a sprawling bar that begins its happy hour at NOON on weekdays and has both delicious food and drink menu offerings. If you're looking for a cocktail, try the Jumping Jack Flash, which is both what happens when you wear your short shorts to gym class and a concoction made with ginger, mint, and Buffalo Trace. [22]
    • Must-visit restaurants ... The Misfit for gourmet comfort food and signature cocktails [23]
    • "Local Santa Monica Restaurants with outdoor dining ... The Misfit Restaurant [24]
    That leaves this and this and this and this. I'll leave it to out esteemed fellow editors to judge whether those constitute sigcov.
    So yeah, it does actually look like you have no clue what you're doing. Sorry, but you asked for it. EEng 22:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I feel like I'm being trolled at this point so I'm moving on to other things. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    But best not describe them as "deletionists" -- that is bad faith! (Well, looks like it's just been me who's been using the dreaded D word, although I will forever maintain that it's a perfect description of their outward behaviour, even if their intentions may be well and good.) KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 17:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Sometimes when I see certain editors show up in my watchlist, I assume they've voted 'delete' before I even go to the page to read their comments. It is what it is. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:23, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just chiming in here (no opinion about the article itself), but a notable writer writing about something does not necessarily mean the writer is a reliable source, or that coverage by said writer is significant enough to establish notability. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:49, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Another Believer: If you've identified subject-matter experts, that basically means that you could use something they've published on their own to count towards notability – it makes questionable sources reliable. But for a source to count towards notability, it needs to be both reliable and provide significant coverage of its subject, and the identity of the author can't help you on the latter. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 03:58, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've added one of Polak's articles to the source assessment table for others to review. ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:58, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't found many sources over 100 words, and even fewer over 200 words. But I've helped write FAs and GAs with as hodgepodged of sources, strewn together to form a cohesive narrative. For some businesses and for some historical topics, it's necessary, as there isn't a wholehearted focus on the subject until you get there. Does that make it any less important? I'd say no. ɱ (talk) 18:49, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:ITSIMPORTANT. So you're telling us that you can't list even three sources which individually qualify as sigcov? You have to string them together? Oy vey. EEng 19:01, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:IAR. If you think one rule about in-depth sourcing should stop a long, detailed, neutral, well-cited, wonderful article from existing, you should re-evaluate your standards on this site. ɱ (talk) 19:25, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Huh. Your philosophy seems to have changed since the time you told Johnbod: Perhaps reevaluate your standards to align with Wikipedia's, as Wikipedia will not spontaneously align with yours. [26] EEng 20:13, 15 December 2022 (UTC) You sure like the word reevaluate a lot![reply]
There's surely one thing I don't have to reevaluate: that Sacred Cod is full of inane bullshit. But that is no longer important here nor there. ɱ (talk)
Indeed it's not. When you get over being butthurt, can you get us that list of sigcov sources? Just the three you judge best will be fine. EEng 21:49, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(←) You clearly didn't read what I wrote, and you're clearly just sticking around to call any support votes "butthurt", which seems to me a description of you.... Again, I've been involved in many quality articles that don't meet that one rule. One violation doesn't make this article unworthy of belonging on Wikipedia. Now kindly fuck off. ɱ (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Temper, temper! For those playing along at home who may be wondering, the rule MJ wants us to ignore is WP:SIGCOV. EEng 12:35, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And you've told at least one editor you'll "stop testing the limits of editors' willingness to make fools of themselves" here if they come vote (knowing their opinion already). This is canvassing. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:49, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I call that a serious discussion about the usefulness and reliability of some sources. Not a call to vote and therefor not canvassing. The Banner talk 16:07, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm all for discussions about the appropriateness of specific sources, that's not the issue. Canvassing is "notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way, and is considered inappropriate". In my opinion, asking editors to come vote a certain way in a deletion discussion is not OK, but whatever. ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:11, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@EEng: and to your point, maybe you should stop and read WP:SIGCOV. It's a guideline, to start, so can't be a single be-all-end-all for determining whether to keep or delete an article. Secondly, that section talks about numerous ways to determine notability. Significant coverage is only one of many ways to ensure "a topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article". It also is not a be-all-end-all. So while we can't easily presume notability based on sigcov, we can assess it to be notable based on the heavy reliable sourcing from around the country and even elsewhere in the world. ɱ (talk) 16:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Ɱ, the beginning of the notability guideline includes:

A topic is presumed to merit an article if:

  1. It meets either the general notability guideline (GNG) below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific notability guideline (SNG) listed in the box on the right; and
  2. It is not excluded under the What Wikipedia is not policy.

For this topic, we can apply the WP:NCORP guideline, which in the WP:ORGCRIT section says, The guideline, among other things, is meant to address some of the common issues with abusing Wikipedia for advertising and promotion. From my view, NCORP helps us determine whether an article should be excluded as WP:PROMO, because without significant coverage of a company, there is a risk of creating promotional content instead of encyclopedic content, which is contrary to WP:NOT policy. Beccaynr (talk) 16:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, you can go down a rabbit-hole of guidelines and sub-guidelines and explanations and definitions. In the end, it is just one small part of what establishes notability as written in a guideline. Not a policy. Not a be-all-end-all for whether to keep or delete. ɱ (talk) 16:47, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have !voted to merge content from this article, because there does not appear to be sufficient independent and significant coverage to support a standalone article at this time. From my view, it would not improve Wikipedia to ignore all rules designed to protect the encyclopedia from advertising and promotion. Also, editors in this discussion have asked for a few sources with significant coverage to be identified here (which seems reasonable due to the citation overkill in the article), but this does not appear to have happened. Beccaynr (talk) 17:25, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile, there's a tag on Pike Place Market which says, "This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably. Please consider splitting content into sub-articles, condensing it, or adding subheadings", so merging there doesn't seem ideal. I've started a discussion on the PPM article's Talk page to see how the tag can be addressed. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:39, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I suggested the creation of a section for food stalls with a subheading [27], and this seems helpful for addressing concerns about readability. I also think the inclusion of content about other food stalls further supports a merger, because it creates a clear destination for merged content and can help determine how much merged content is WP:DUE. Overall, the question of what to do with the Pike Place Market article does not seem to substantially impact whether a subsection about food stalls can be incorporated - if anything, the addition of independent and reliable sources about the food stalls may help with determining how to edit the Market article generally, perhaps by making it more clear that a split is needed or condensing of content would be beneficial. Beccaynr (talk) 18:00, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that every fucking letter of a guideline doesn't need to be followed is certainly not fucking new. Didn't I tell you to stop bothering every voter? ɱ (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Temper, temper! EEng 23:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have obviously expressed myself very poorly. I am not for one moment suggesting that notability is optional. However, the guidelines by we assess notability are not perfect which is why they admit of occasional exceptions (such as in this case, I think). Do you think our guidelines, as written, are perfect or that they are mandatory on editors? Thincat (talk) 21:23, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Guidelines on obscure issues tend to be less well developed, and therefore it's not uncommon for unanticipated situations to arise that suggest making an exception. But WP:N isn't such a guideline -- it is, without a doubt, one of the most scrutinized, discussed, revised, and fought-over guidelines we have, and therefore the reasoning for any exception would have to be very well elucidated indeed. So far, the closest thing to coherent reasoning (and it's not, truth be told, very close) is (above)
I haven't found many sources over 100 words, and even fewer over 200 words. But I've helped write FAs and GAs with as hodgepodged of sources, strewn [sic, strung?] together to form a cohesive narrative. For some businesses and for some historical topics, it's necessary, as there isn't a wholehearted focus on the subject until you get there. Does that make it any less important? I'd say no.
AFAICT this is an argument that you can string 50 trivial sources together to add up to sigcov, even if not one single source gives sigcov on its own. But if such an exception is countenanced, then it would apply equally to literally hundreds of thousands of other restaurants or bars (and that's just in the US) that have what every restaurant or bar has these days: dozens five-sentence "reviews" and "list of" appearances. EEng 23:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like the d*******ist game plan in this AfD is to 1) insist on an extremely tedious reading of notability guidelines, 2) invoke "hit rates" to discredit Keep !votes, but only when it's convenient and not when those !voting keep have what they'd consider stellar "hit rates", and 3) talk about a nightmarish slippery slope involving hundreds of thousands of random shoddy articles being created if this 7641-character article with 43 sources were to be kept. Discounting 1) and 2), which I'm sure are mischaracterisations on my part because I have a poor "hit rate" and am very inexperienced, please tell me more about 3): surely every AfD is judged case by case? Why would this "exception" apply "equally" to hypothetical articles that are obviously inferior (in terms of length or sourcing or whatever else that this article has that they wouldn't). Couldn't we still exercise some common sense? KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 23:49, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a slipperly-slope argument. The question is merely, if this "stringing together sources" argument is actually valid, where are the half million additional articles that would qualify under that interpretation of SIGCOV? What you call an "extremely tedious" reading of guidelines, I call taking them at face value and asking for reasoning for an exception. EEng 00:46, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I simply cannot follow the logic of your statement. Just why would there be half a million additional articles? This isn't a blind or indiscriminate interpretation, it's one that calls for articles to be handled on a case-by-case basis with some COMMON SENSE. If someone wanted to write half a million more articles with at least 43 sources and 7641 characters too, by all means! It seems to me that you're just raising an objection for the sake of it (which is what I'd call "extremely tedious"). Nuff said, KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 18:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Kingoflettuce, I wasn't referencing other people's better stats to discredit your keep vote. (The closer will assess the strength of your argument on their own, and whether or not you've got a good record isn't even something they'll take into account; even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and if your argument is policy-based and compelling, they'll give it due weight.)
I was referencing it to show you why maybe the people you're calling "deletionists" are probably just better at assessing notability than you are. It seriously is all about calling people deletionists. And asterisking out the word doesn't make it any less battlegroundy to use it. Unless someone is telling you they're a deletionist, you should just give that a rest. Valereee (talk) 19:25, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if deletionist is a dirty word like you make it out to be, there wouldn't be too many people professing to be deletionists. The duck test applies to deletionists as much as it does sockpuppets. Going on a whim to nominate 30 AB-written articles at one go speaks for itself. Even you realise this is not the most acceptable course of action. Creep opnely admits to not caring about looking at each article individually to assess its unique merits/demerits & absurdly concludes that "99.999999% of restuarants and bars etc are non-notable" and that all articles on defunct restaurants ought to be deleted. It's just bonkers! And you tell me to "give it a rest"? C'mon! KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 21:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like a clear case of WP:WIKIHOUNDING to me. The second word in the nominator's username says it all. A shame! KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 18:06, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is a very old trick to start bashing the nominator to hide the actual lack of notability. The Banner talk 18:47, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Are you denying that it's textbook Wikihounding, The_Banner?! Give me a break... KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 19:04, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is also a very old trick to begin a sentence with "It is a very old trick..." to make one seem like the wise editor who knows best, when in fact he's just muttering platitudes and ignoring the very egregious problem being raised (namely, that someone is CLEARLY engaged in the bad-faith act of WIKIHOUNDING, & it's almost impossible to give them the benefit of doubt). We can talk about the articles and their strengths/weaknesses if the nominations are made in the right spirit, and not to target the work of one editor. This shouldn't even need to be said! KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 19:09, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To my opinion a whole series of accusations of wikihouding on every page nominated is equally a case of wikihounding. I have checked those nominations and to my opinion they are valid. Mostly because the restaurants lack notabilty and in one case because it is a very poor article about a former restaurant with Michelin star (what usually gives a truck load of media attention but the article does not show that). The Banner talk 19:25, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Unbelievable, are you even listening to yourself? In my opinion, calling out others for Wikihounding is not the same as Wikihounding (and notice has to be given at each of the few million AfDs Creep has happily started, just to let everyone know that they've specifically been targetting AB's works, or they might be none the wiser). What would be Wikihounding, for instance, would be nominating all the Creep-written articles that may be problematic in retaliation. KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 21:02, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is not retaliating but protecting Wikipedia from sub-standard and/or non-notable articles written by one specific editor. Every article should be judged against the same policies and guidelines. There is no policy available to protect an editor against application of the magnifying glass to keep policies in place. The Banner talk 12:56, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, I can't disagree with this but it doesn't appear that due care and consideration has been given to each individual article if the nominator collectively nominates 20 of them with the justification that "99.999999% of restuarants and bars etc are non-notable". IMHO this not "application of the magnifying glass to keep policies in place", it's trigger-happy. And if we really wanted to take that magnifying glass out, it doesn't seem prudent to do it in the midst of an AfD like this one! KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 13:38, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
At the same time, I have been advised that what SC is doing is not technically Wiki-hounding. I apologise for the mischaracterisation, even if I still believe that the mass AfDs were not the best course of action. KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 13:40, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Admin comment: Asterisking out the letters in deletionist was borderline, but that's a blatant personal attack on @Scope creep, @Kingoflettuce and you know better, which is why you're not getting a template warning. If there's a meta conversation to be had, you and @Another Believer can bring it to the relevant notice board without further clogging this discussion. Star Mississippi 21:26, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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