The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. There is a general consensus that the topic meets the general notability guideline, and that the preexisting biases in the article can be resolved. But this consensus to keep is dependent on the title reflecting a more neutral tone; those in favor of deletion are surely correct that the article should not exist under the present title. Since an independent move discussion is now underway, however, no move will be made as a result of this AfD. Arbitrarily0(talk) 16:52, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
2- Significant coverage there are no independent, reliable and secondary sources addressing the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content.
3- Reliable: sources used in the article are either unreliable or mediocre, and in both cases do not deal with the topic directly.
4- Secondary: Most sources are not secondary, many of them primary reporting on violent incidents
5- Independent: Most sources are not independent of the subject, many of them are Israeli news website and academic institutions.
This article is a clear example of original research with questionable references, it should be deleted to maintain adherence to Wikipedia's strict guidelines. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:09, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Warning to closing editor: A banned sockpuppet has attempted at least once to canvass editors with a specific viewpoint to come to this discussion. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I don't like the title and the way the article is written, however I'm not sure point 2 above (at least) is correct. this appears to be a published book on the "politics of national commemoration" of Palestinian martyrs. This appears to be an academic paper focusing on the "visual representation of martyrdom in Palestine". I think there is something there, I don't really understand the point that the nom is making by saying there are no RS on the topic. Unless I'm somehow not understanding the difference between the topic and these sources.. JMWt (talk) 10:44, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Both of these two sources -not used in the article- deal with the topic of martyrdom in Palestine, not the topic of "glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society". Either way, there are still issues with the rest four notability guidelines. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:01, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mm well. Surely there's a big crossover between there being significant public "visual representation" and it being "glorified". Maybe the solution is to change the title to something like Public representation of martyrdom in Palestinian society JMWt (talk) 11:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suicide, Violence, and Cultural Conceptions of Martyrdom in Palestine. By Neil L. Whitehead and Nasser Abufarha
"For Palestinians, a Rush to Claim ‘Martyrs’ Killed by Israel". New York Times. By Raja Abdulrahim and Hiba Yazbek. Dec. 31, 2022
The Polyvalent Politics of Martyr Commemorations in the Palestinian Intifada. Lori A. Allen.
"Martyrdom and national identity". Bassem Eid. March 2008.
Female Martyrdom: The Ultimate Embodiment of Islamic Existence? By Rivka Yadlin
Martyrdom and Visual Representations of the Palestinian Islamic Movements. Attila Kovács. Marokwitz (talk) 12:56, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keeping would serve no purpose, as the different article name proposed has a different scope from the current article, better to delete this and start from scratch there. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I feel there is no real difference as martyrdom is the elevation of the individual to a status of heroism or sanctity - which is by definition "glorification". This is true for martyrs of any society. Marokwitz (talk) 16:23, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's possible that we can rename, and remove the glorification word, although although as said by Marokwitz glorification kinda comes in with the definition of martyrdom. Regaridng the topic, Martyrdom in a society is worthy of an encyclopedic entry. Homerethegreat (talk) 15:23, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Probably could be written more neutrally but the sources show that this a recognized and studied concept in reliable sources that tie specifically into the national aspect, not just Islam. Maybe rename and deal with some of the neutrality issues. PARAKANYAA (talk) 13:05, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The article could be written better, but it is sourced and the phenomenon is important and well documented. Dovidroth (talk) 13:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
TNT or Merge to Shaheed with a sentence or two added intoMartyr#Martyrdom in the Middle East -- This article is incredibly fraught with WP:NPOV problems, from the infobox image on down. In my personal view, it appears to be a well-sourced polemical WP:ESSAY filled with WP:OR and WP:SYNTH attacking an entire society for the views of a group within it. However, there is encyclopaedic information buried in the article. A selective merge to Shaheed with a summary sentence in Martyr would allow for a non-POV and non-advocacy article to be maintained. If Merge is not an accepted consensus, I would strongly support a result of WP:TNT. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 15:37, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well that makes no logical sense given there a) there are many Palestinians that are not Islamic and b) some of them are celebrated as martyrs.
We can't just merge ideas together because it looks neater in our minds when the facts don't support them being the same thing. JMWt (talk) 16:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You have examples of Christians and Jews treated as Martyrs in Palestine? Please provide them! Otherwise, we are doing exactly what you deplore -- lumping everyone into "Palestinians who glorify martyrdom" when it's untrue. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 17:01, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you know. This is getting into the weeds of the issue, but it does help if you know what you are talking about - or take the time to research it. Try this source
Quote "Some martyrs are Muslim, while others are Christian. Some, like the revolutionary icon Ghassan Kanafani, were devout Marxists." Unquote JMWt (talk) 17:09, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is not a source I had seen and I find it fascinating. I don't think it's RS, but it's still fascinating and I would bet there are RS sources that support the same view. I will adjust my comment above. Thank you and Cheers, Last1in (talk) 17:22, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep quite a lot of secondayr sources, article seems to be describing in a tone applicable and coherent. If you wish to make more accurate, you can add years. Regarding sources, Ithink they appear to be reliable, can you point to a specific source and explain the problem? Regarding title, it's rather straight to the point... Notable topic. Homerethegreat (talk) 15:49, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep article is amply sourced and as described above, more source have come to light. I'd suggest a rewrite, but we can likely keep the article. Oaktree b (talk) 16:39, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Not a !vote one way or the other yet, but change the title to remove "Glorification of" from the name. The topic of martyrdom is encyclopedia-worthy, but the current state of the article is a POV-charged mess and will need to be rewritten entirely. I don't question the number of sources discussing the topic more broadly, so I don't know that I can say to do an outright delete on notability. That said, there's a fair case to be made that some TNT could help with the cleanup process. In the meantime, we can at least improve the title. Vanilla Wizard 💙 17:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
!Voting now. TNT delete. I took another look through the article and I don't think what we have is salvageable. The article does have sources, but they're cobbled together (WP:SYNTH, WP:NOR) to form a misleading narrative. To give just one example, there's a whole original research paragraph suggesting that the reason why a large percent of young Palestinians have post traumatic stress disorder is because of the glorification of the concept of martyrdom, as opposed to everything else that's been going on in the Israel-Palestine conflict. Is the topic of martyrdom in Palestinian society notable? Quite possibly. But is this material acceptable? Absolutely not. Vanilla Wizard 💙 18:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Being moved by the arguments that it is not appropriate to have an article about martyrdom in the culture of one specific nation as if it is a uniquely Palestinian phenomenon. I reread the article and it really does come across more as an essay that tries to persuade the reader that a core tenant of Palestinian culture is the brainwashing of one's own child into sacrificing themselves as a martyr. The article at no point mentions that martyrdom of the deceased is common on the Israeli side (or across other cultures as well), or that the broader Israel-Palestine conflict (as opposed to some essential quality of the Palestinian people) could be contributing to the phenomenon of martyrdom. This page only serves to dehumanize a nation. The basic Martyrdom article does a much better job at describing the topic and there is no need to split it into POV forks. I support TNT at a minimum as a middle-ground position between deleting and keeping, but my preference is now to delete with prejudice against recreation. Vanilla Wizard 💙 20:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. If one reads the article and views the sourcing, the notability is obvious and abundantly clear, and AfDing this article based on this reasoning is flat-out wrong. There is room for discussion whether the title is the appropriate one, but that's not for AfD. Longhornsg (talk) 20:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The attitude towards martyrdom in the Palestinian society is indeed a unique phenomenon, which presents itself in the media, education and finances. The phenomenon calls for an article, and I think this article presents it in a coherent, well sourced way. As per the claims of Makeandtoss:
The article is structured and coherent.
Sources are reliable: the largest group of sources is that of scholarly articles in respectful journals. To count a few: Journal of Political Ideologies, Studies in Conflict & Terrorism, Journal of Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies, Social Research, Security Studies, Terrorism and Political Violence... These are clearly secondary sources, and they make up the foundation of the article. There are some citations of global media such as CNN and AP News
Some sources are Israeli. Counting, they are definitely not the majority. -GidiD (talk) 12:53, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I see no reason to delete the article. I wrote it after I came across the fact that there is a wide and in-depth academic literature dealing with this important topic. As with every new article I create, I'm always happy to have additional editors help improve and expand the entry, and add additional perspectives. Eladkarmel (talk) 18:11, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This article is completely biased, misleading, and has no place on Wikipedia. The phenomenon of glorifying martyrdom is not limited to the Palestinian community, as depicted in Israeli narratives. For instance, the dead of the Zionist bands like Lehi and Irgun are called "martyrs" and memorials are dedicated to them in Israel. Dl.thinker (talk) 22:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as first choice, remove "glorification of" as second choice. As Dl.thinker says, all societies glorify their own "martyrs". The soldier who volunteers for a mission with little chance of return is universally lauded as a hero. The literature on this particular example consists mostly of Zionist authors using it to dehumanise Palestinians. We should not buy into it. Zerotalk 22:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - possibly rename This seems to be a well researched and attested phenomena to a particular region, but perhaps a less editorial or leading title would serve us better. Perhaps "Culture of martyrdom in Palestinian Society" or "history of martyrdom culture in Palestinian Society" or "history of martyrdom veneration in Palestinian Society"...possibly a few more options in that direction.
I also don't like some of the tone of the current piece in places and would sift through it to ensure it is properly neutral where needed, but not enough to eliminate the piece altogether imo.
Also - *perhaps* this could be folded into the martyrdom page, but I'm concerned as to how short and cursory that page is at present. Mistamystery (talk) 06:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and rename to Martyrdom in Palestinian society. No particular concern, other than the name. "Glorification of" can already be deleted in this discussion. Dropping this is concensual. Whether it should be Martyrdom in Palestinian society or in culture, or another word order as above, is already a secondary concern and should be debated on the talk page. If we partially change the name now something good would have come of this AfD after all. gidonb (talk) 13:29, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, the article is well-sourced and presents a historical perspective to the ongoing conflict. Cloud200 (talk) 21:01, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, goodness knows why, but I was WP:CANVASSED by email to oppose the deletion of this article by Zapdungar. I have no way of knowing whether I was the only one or why I was chosen. Pincrete (talk) 22:10, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seems that the Zapdungar account has been blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet account, with the block log showing the account is believed to be one of more than 286 alts of User:AndresHerutJaim, whose use of Wikipedia since 2011 has been exclusively to promote a particular perspective on articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. I was not expecting there to be such a deep rabbithole to this user's prolonged illegitimate use of the encyclopedia. I certainly hope this AFD hasn't been tainted by canvassing attempts. Vanilla Wizard 💙 06:42, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh you sweet summer child, that ship has already sailed. nableezy - 18:03, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose an another way I could've phrased that was "I hope the !votes we have so far are legitimate", just trying to assume good faith, but this certainly complicates things. Now whoever closes this gets to deal with not only the obligatory checking-to-make-sure-everyone-is-extended-confirmed job that comes with any Arab-Israeli internal !vote, but also ensuring the !votes aren't canvassed, and I honestly have no idea how one could even tell. Vanilla Wizard 💙 00:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That al Jazeera article is not about glorification of martyrdom, it's mainly about the lack of any kind of future among these young refugees as a response to a grim past and present: His comments reflect a belief among many young people in Jenin that fighting the occupation is their main purpose in life. Faced with a lack of prospects for the future, in the eyes of young people here, resistance is the only way to confront a reality in which Israeli soldiers breach their homes, arrest their parents, and even kill their friends or relatives.Pincrete (talk) 06:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Quote: "The teenagers did not hesitate when asked what they aspired to be when they grew up. “Martyrs,” they said in unison, referring to the term used by Palestinians to describe anyone killed by Israelis." Is aspiring and dreaming to become "martyrs" not a sign of glorification?
I am not referring to the main context of the article in itself; but I am referring to the clear signs that "martyrdom" is being glorified in Palestinian society based on statements from those children and photographic evidence put in the example article. Vincenty846 (talk) 08:06, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is aspiring and dreaming to become "martyrs" not a sign of glorification? actually no, and certainly not as a distinctly Palestinian trait. If you asked the youth in certain areas of Northern Ireland during the Troubles or those in South Africa during the challenge to Apartheid, the answer would have been much the same. What that says is much more about what those who see themselves as fighting for their freedom than it says about Palestinians as such. I happen to have been reading this weekend some of the writings of imprisoned Irgun members in the years leading up to 1948. The extent to which those members 'readied themselves' for what they saw as their probable fate - the noose or death in combat - was quite chilling. Survivors and future generations honoured them of course. What we have here is another manifestation of "one man's heroic freedom fighter is another man's psychopathic fanatic terrorist with a death-wish".Pincrete (talk) 08:38, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I disagree. I don’t care if it is not a “distinctly” Palestinian trait since that is not the main point of what is being discussed here. The degree to which such “Martyrdom” is venerated in Palestinian society in itself is very notable and very relevant to current events; hence my support to keep the article.
If anyone would like to make articles about “Glorification of Martyrdom in Apartheid South Africa” or “Glorification of IRA Martyrdom in Ireland during the Troubles” they are very welcome to do so if they think those topics are very notable. Vincenty846 (talk) 11:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t care if it is not a “distinctly” Palestinian trait - you have to if you are describing Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society, rather than "Glorification of martyrdom in human beings" or "Glorification of martyrdom in national resistance groups" or even "Glorification of martyrdom in nations who see themselves as under threat". Much of the article is WP:OR, simply pointing to 'examples' of violent deeds and extrapolating from that a general death-wish/death-cult trait among a whole population. Since long before Boudica, those who are seen as fighting oppression tend to get lionised in very two-dimensional ways. Pincrete (talk) 14:57, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
TNTThe article does have sources, but they're cobbled together (WP:SYNTH, WP:NOR) to form a misleading narrative. per Vanilla Wizard. Plus The phenomenon of glorifying martyrdom is not limited to the Palestinian community, as depicted in Israeli narratives. For instance, the dead of the Zionist bands like Lehi and Irgun are called "martyrs" As one might add are Steve Biko and Bobby Sands. If there is an article to be written about attitudes to martyrdom (which incidentally seems to have a broader definition in Palestine) - this is not it. The article also seems more interested in giving - what the writer appears to see as particularly offensive - examples of 'martyrs' being celebrated than in actually detailing the attitude to martyrdom.Pincrete (talk) 08:45, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The article is well-sourced, and while some parts may warrant rewriting or restructuring, I can't think of a good reason why the article should be deleted. EytanMelech (talk) 17:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
TNT - as variously described above by others, this is a shoddily constructed, attack-like article cobbled together out of dated, weak scholarship, news and other lesser sources to present a clearly POV narrative under an equally deficient title. Far removed from an encyclopedic build of a topic from the best sources -- composed as it is in the reverse of such a manner -- unpicking the issues would be a more monumental task than starting it afresh, hence TNT. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:10, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rename (remove “Glorification of”) and STARTOVER - the article does reference at least six scholarly sources on the topic, and there are probably more so there does appear to be academic research on the topic:
Hatina, M. (2005). Theology and power in the Middle East: Palestinian martyrdom in a comparative perspective. Journal of Political Ideologies, 10(3), 241–267. doi:10.1080/13569310500244289
Meir Litvak (2010) “Martyrdom is Life”: Jihad and Martyrdom in the Ideology of Hamas, Studies in Conflict & Terrorism, 33:8, 716–734, DOI: 10.1080/1057610X.2010.494170
Daphne Burdman (2003) Education, indoctrination, and incitement: Palestinian children on their way to martyrdom, Terrorism and Political Violence, 15:1, 96-123, DOI: 10.1080/09546550312331292977
Loadenthal, M. (2014). Reproducing a Culture of Martyrdom: The Role of the Palestinian Mother in Discourse Construction, Transmission, and Legitimization. In D. Cooper & C. Phelan (Eds.), Motherhood and war: International perspectives (pp. 183, 197). New York: Palgrave Macmillan.
Bilal Tawfiq Hamamra (2020) Mothers of martyrs: Rethinking Shakespeare’s Volumnia’s collective motherhood from a Palestinian perspective, Psychodynamic Practice, 26:3, 248–259, DOI: 10.1080/14753634.2020.1762715
Franke, L. (2014, April). The Discursive Construction of Palestinian istishhādiyyāt within the Frame of Martyrdom. In Martyrdom in the Modern Middle East (pp. 190–191, 193–195, 200). Ergon-Verlag
The article would need rewrite to be more comprehensive, accurate, unbiased, and neutral, and more scholarly references would need to be used. There has been research published on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from social psychology perspectives, as well.
Also I was not canvassed; my Wiki email is disabled. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 22:04, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Bilal Tawfiq Hamamra's Mothers of martyrs: Rethinking Shakespeare’s Volumnia’s collective motherhood from a Palestinian perspective, is a study written by a drama and English lecturer! The study covers how Hamamra presents Shakespeare’s Coriolanus - and specifically Coriolanus' mother Volumnia - to modern Palestinian students. It is the main source for most of the 'Perceptions of motherhood' section (though much claimed to be sourced to the study isn't actually in it and is WP:SYNTHED so as to appear sourced).
The study is an interesting 'take' on parallels between a Shakespeare play/society and a modern situation, but PLEASE - a scholarly sources on the topic of Palestinian mother's attitude to martyrdom. Would we cite Hamlet scholars to support modern Danish societal attitudes? Pincrete (talk) 07:47, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That’s interesting. I wonder how it even got published in ‘Psychodynamic Practice’. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 08:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It may be making a huge contribution to ‘Psychodynamic Practice’ or to the teaching of Shakespeare to Palestinians. That doesn't make it a meaningful study of ' 'Perceptions of motherhood' in Palestinian society - certainly not THE meaningful study around which to craft a section. Pincrete (talk) 16:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I was just on the Suicide attack Wiki page, and it has a section on martyrdom: “Clerics have supported suicide attacks largely in connection with the Palestinian issue. Prominent Sunni cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi had previously supported such attacks by Palestinians in perceived defense of their homeland as heroic and an act of resistance.
Thank you, Makeandtoss, for opening this discussion. If this issue actually has any validity based on reality and research, to take a leaf out of your book, it probably shouldn’t be censored. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 15:39, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does appear there is encouragement of martyrdom culture through amaliyyat fida’iyya (operations of self-sacrifice), al-’amal al- istishhadi (the work of martyrdom), and istishhad (dying in martyrdom) that arises from social psychological, cultural and political reasons, but the book focuses more on the historical and political backdrop of Israeli occupation. It probably could be used to provide a more balanced perspective/article on martyrdom in Palestine. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 22:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - per Zero. There is nothing inherently Palestinian about "glorification of martyrs". Indeed, Israel honors its fallen soldiers as national heroes, so do most countries, armed groups, or ethnic or religious groups. This article is, to be blunt, an exercise in propaganda. It seeks to otherize what is a near universal phenomena. Every war memorial on the planet is a "glorification of martyrs". But, as has been a recurring theme in new creations in this topic, this article seeks to create an emphatically POV spin on something that applies to all parties and pretending like it only applies to one. And it should not be allowed. I doubt it wont be, given the predictable canvassing that has likewise been endemic in this topic area, but it shouldnt be. nableezy - 22:26, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's significant difference between fallen soldier and suicide bombers who blow themselves up among civilians. Cloud200 (talk) 22:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can promise you that your unsourced personal views on this topic are not something I am interested in reading. Kindly go share them elsewhere. But, for the record, that glorification in Palestinian society extends to the children killed in bombing by Israel, who they consider among their martyrs. But you wouldnt know that if you read this propaganda screed pretending to be an article, because it doesnt try to explain a topic it tries to prove a point. nableezy - 22:53, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you wish to dismiss these as "Jewish propaganda", here's Hamas own leaders speaking of "We salute the Jihad-fighting Palestinian woman, who tends to the martyr and tends to her husband, and perhaps will become a martyr herself" about a suicide bomber (and much more) Cloud200 (talk) 20:20, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
MEMRI is also a propaganda outlet, so point very much not made. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:28, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
lol I dont think you understood what I wrote, but I dont really see the point of explaining it to you. But for anybody who isnt approaching this with the most racist framing they can conjure (oh hey, there are camps for children to play IDF soldier! omg omg omg), shaheed (martyr) is used in Palestine for any person killed by Israel or fighting against Israel. See for example al-Jazeera: about 10,600 martyred in Gaza since the start of the war, 40% of them children. The now 6,000 children killed in Gaza the last two months are all martyrs in Palestinian society and they are all indeed glorified as such. This drivel that is being pushed in the afd and the article is propaganda, pure and simple, it is a biased and incomplete telling with some tidbits of truth mixed told in a way to push an untrue narrative. Maybe when this is over an actual article could be created, but it wont be based on this garbage. But also, please dont place quotes around things people never said, it is quite dishonest. nableezy - 20:52, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nableezy What is exactly "incomplete" here? That Hamas and ISIS routinely use *suicide* bombings and praise their executors as martyrs? That they brainwashed and drugged people to participate in suicidal attacks against civilians? You say Hamas calls martyrs "any person killed by Israel". Does that also extend to any person by Hamas own rockets falling short in Gaza? As for "killed by Israel", you're also not telling the whole truth - Hamas uses civilians as human shield, without asking them if they want to participate or not. How does it make any better that they then praise them as "martyrs"? They're dead specifically because Hamas decides e.g. to place rocket launchers in residential buildings, specifically because they know there will be a response. Cloud200 (talk) 14:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, I did not say Hamas calls martyrs any person killed by Israel. If you are unable to read what I wrote the first time I dont see the point in explaining it a second time. Please dont ping me again with this level of inanity. Thanks in advance. nableezy - 14:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is what you wrote just a few lines above: "shaheed (martyr) is used in Palestine for any person killed by Israel or fighting against Israel." Cloud200 (talk) 10:19, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Now see if you cant tell the difference between is used in Palestine for any person killed by Israel or fighting against Israel. and You say Hamas calls martyrs "any person killed by Israel".nableezy - 14:12, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or TNT and rename to Martyrdom in Palestinian society. Martyrdom is a major aspect of Palestinian life under Israeli occupation, but it isn't unusual for oppressed peoples to """glorify""" their martyrs. The article itself insults and blames Palestinians for something they can't control (oftentimes being their only chance to better their situation). It also explains the motives of martyrdom as simply being due to the Palestinians' religion, an absolutely childish reduction. Salmoonlight (talk) 22:33, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep article + keep name. the Glorification of martyrs exists in Palestinian society and is well documented. It even caused International incidents. No reason to delete article. P.S. use of the term "TNT" in this context leaves bad taste. TaBaZzz (talk) 08:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the article and improve any problems that it has incrementally. I don't see obviously unreliable sources. User Vanilla_Wizard wrote that the content regarding the PTSD is OR but it's clearly not since a scholarly article is cited. Several editors noted that the article presents a misleading narrative without producing evidence thereof.
The main argument for deleting the article seems to be that every society glorifies its fallen heroes. This is true, but this doesn't mean that it's not a valid topic for an article. Each society does it in a different way and these differences are notable. To take the Soviet Union as a example (it's more distant in time and won't be as controversial, I hope), the fallen soldiers (real or fabricated) were definitely glorified, especially if they took many enemies with them. On the other hand, the violence against civilians was not usually celebrated (unless the said civilians were various enemies of the people - it's complicated) and instead was often denied. Also, the major difference is the role of religion vs ideology. Alaexis¿question? 09:34, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have you checked the sources? The paragraph I used as an example of the article's problematic nature cites two sources. Let's take a cursory glance at what we're citing. The first is from one Daphne Burdman of the "politically neo-conservative" think tank Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. Just from that information alone I sincerely hope I don't have to describe how Burdman is not offering neutral or reliable work from an academic perspective. I would argue that Burdman's article titled (in all caps) "HATRED OF THE JEWS AS A PSYCHOLOGICAL PHENOMENON IN PALESTINIAN SOCIETY" with the opening abstract stating that the Palestinian nation hates the Jews for three reasons - 1) because the Quran tells them to, 2) because of extremist Islamic militancy, and 3) because Yasser Arafat indoctrinated all the children to do so - immediately disqualifies any and all work of hers on the encyclopedia. Let's maybe not use ahistorical rants from a hard right pro-settlement think tank as an "academic" source on an article about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Is that too much to ask? Am I being too picky by wanting better sources than that?
The second source, from what I can find, doesn't even seem to mention what the article cites it for. Granted, for all I know it might be buried somewhere deep in the full version which costs $60 to view. Given the tragic state of the rest of the article, I wouldn't bet money on that, figuratively or literally in this case.
Take a look at the rest of the sources, too. I'll preface this by saying: yes, we at least have a couple sources that should be fine, there's one from CNN and one from AP, no qualms with that. But sources that pass WP:RS for either notability or indeed verifiability are few and far between, and sufficiently neutral ones are near impossible to come by. Is anyone really going to argue that the Zionist Organization of America is a "neutral, reliable, secondary source"? The article also cites the "World Security Network", an organization I can find no information on, and whose website I can't access because Firefox flagged their website as (ironically) a security risk. Any analysis of the sources that goes beyond merely skimming them will reveal that the citations are a mix of heavily biased think tanks, foreign ministries, random miscellaneous potentially-unsafe websites, and various Israeli media outlets, the lattermost somehow being the least unreliable or biased ones in the article despite many of them being from a conservative slanted publication. It's not enough for a citation to "look academic" or be on a research website, that alone does not make it RS. It could have all the superficial professionalism in the world, that doesn't change that it very well might be from an incredibly disreputable and biased think-tank, organization, and/or author. This dumpster-fire of an article does not meet RS by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm not sure that your arguments re the reliability of sources are based on the policy. If Daphne Burdman's article were published on the site of the think-tank she works for, I would agree with you, but it was published in Terrorism and Political Violence peer-reviewed journal.
As for the second example, I couldn't find it in the article as well and tagged the sentence.
The Zionist Ogranization of America is clearly biased, but it doesn't mean they are unreliable (WP:BIASED). In one case when it's cited, it's easy to confirm that Yahya Ayyash street exists using google maps (https://maps.app.goo. gl/fHQMUobM4wZVX9sE8 - remove a space in the URL, for some reason it blocks the original one). This is the archived version of the WSN website, so at the very least it's not a hoax.
The article could definitely use some work but overall the topic is notable and the sourcing is not stellar but fixable. Alaexis¿question? 20:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is true that even a clearly biased organization can be used in certain contexts for verifiability, but this also puts the notability of the material into question. See NPOV § Bias in sources: This does not mean any biased source must be used; it may well serve an article better to exclude the material altogether. If all we're looking to establish is verifiability, we might as well use Google Maps directly. But if we want to establish that there is due weight to mention individual examples of an individual being made a martyr, we're going to need better sources. Vanilla Wizard 💙 20:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair enough, if no one except for the Zionist Organization of America mentions it, this particular event shouldn't be in the article. Possibly it's better to merge the notable individual events into the relevant sections. Alaexis¿question? 10:04, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Meets GNG per sources in article and listed above. Ample soucing showing WP:SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth from a variety of WP:IS WP:RS. Oppose rename, current name meets WP:PRECISE, proposed change would alter the topic of the article to a different subject. // Timothy :: talk 11:24, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and Rename - "Glorification" not necessary. I'd agree with some of the above points regarding sourcing (that some of the current sources do not meet RS), but there are enough good sources to establish notability. OhNoitsJamieTalk 20:47, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep of course. Moe than a notable topic. One may read the Koran which has martyrs as well. (Some misread Koran assuming that martyrs will get 72 virgins but in reality those are just grapes as one can check in Aramaic). Not sure if we need "Glorification" though. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 01:57, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - There is nothing uniquely Palestinian about what is said here that does not already have an article. We already have Istishhad (essentially, seeking martyrdom, which before 7 October already had #Contemporary significance), Shaheed (which as of 26 November 2023 grew its own "Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society" section, but before 7 October already had #Modern_usage), and Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund (the arguably uniquely Palestinian aspect of this topic). What else is there to talk about? The intent of the article appears to be to say "Palestinians honor fallen soldiers" (see Yom HaZikaron) in the language of "Palestinians revel in death", which is, to say the least, not neutral. --Orgullomoore (talk) 20:22, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: and fix NPOV issues. There's sufficient RS to establish notability, and more encyclopedic information than could comfortably fit into Shaheed#Glorification_of_martyrdom_in_Palestinian_society as a section. "Too biased" is a good reason to rewrite, not to delete. Owen×☎ 15:19, 9 December 2023 (UTC) ...and Rename per all. I suspect this article would have received more support had it been named more NPOVly. Owen×☎ 13:21, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguilltalk 15:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep and rename: Clear POV issues with this article which I can understand may make some people want to re-create the article from scratch, but the issue is a notable one. "Glorification of..." definitely needs to be removed from the title though. --GnocchiFan (talk) 15:40, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since there seems to be an allegation that some of the sources used in this article are fringe, I've had a look at some more academic sources in the topic, which show a clear notability for the topic of martyrdom in Palestine specifically. Note that I am not an expert so if there are any issues with these sources, please let me know and I will delete. I have suggested these for article improvement on the talk page:
Keep and rename per GnocchiFan and others above. Would suggest as a possible new name Martyrdom in the Arab-Israeli conflict with the associated broadening of the scope (this new article would include relevant info on Israeli settler violence and earlier Zionist militias and definitely help with NPOV issues imo). Cheers, DantheAnimator 19:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do like the suggestion to broaden the scope to the broader Arab-Israeli conflict instead of singling out a nationality like the current version does. That would certainly help. Vanilla Wizard 💙 19:30, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree that broadening the scope would be a good direction for this article. GnocchiFan (talk) 22:02, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: According to Nasser Abufarha, there are cultural conceptions and dynamics that underlie the motivations of violence through suicide: "martyrdom is mediated through cultural forms" and "acts of violence are already legitimate and culturally appropriate forms of resistance in Palestine." He wrote a whole book about it. The martyrdom phenomenon in Palestinian society is unique though, both in its relation to Israel and in its education system, which is having an impact on children. According to this article https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2023-12-12/ty-article-magazine/.premium/how-unrwa-became-the-second-most-important-organization-in-gaza/0000018c-5deb-d798-adac-fdefaf450000 Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Morocco have decided to "improve their societies by means of educating toward moderation and peace" while Palestine has decided "to turn education into a strategic tool for violence and raise a young generation of shahids." Here is the impact on children as evident by their quotes on what they learn in schools: "They teach us that the Zionists are our enemy and we must fight them," says one 12-year-old boy. Another says: "They teach us that [Jews] are bad people. They killed our young." Another boy says: "I'm ready to stab a Jew and drive [a car] over them." Another says: "We have to constantly stab them, drive over them and shoot them." Yet another adds: "Stabbing and running over the Jews brings dignity to the Palestinians. I'm going to run them over and stab them with knives." A 6-year-old girl, meanwhile, says: "People love Palestine and they are ready to die for Palestine. I want to fight against them [the Jews] and to defeat them in war." Shir Zablodovsky in the article states that the education is "causing children to want to commit suicide...If the people had free will, they would probably not choose to be shahids. But you're born into that, and all they keep repeating to you from childhood is not how to improve your life but how to harm others in order to achieve redemption." Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 02:54, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also GnocchiFan has made the lead more neutral, and I have added to the Background to make it more comprehensive (and added in some Palestinian POV about the significance of their land, historical significance of the Battle of Karameh, their desire for the peace process and independence, how they are willing to sacrifice their blood for the land.) and taken out the Wikipedia:Synth. The article is more neutral than what it started out as originally. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 03:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Wh15tL3D09N: Suicide bombing itself seems to have mostly stopped? Obviously other groups still do it, but I have not heard of many reliable reports of it from Palestine from the past decade or so (I've not heard of ANY reliable reports but I obviously might have missed some). The militants are willing to RISK death but they mostly (at least 99.9% of them) intend to stay alive and keep fighting as long as possible, they are vastly more likely to have a gun or rocket launcher (and body armor if they can access it) than a suicide vest. Irtapil (talk) 15:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Irtapil: This is pure speculation, but I think I has something to do with the West Bank barrier. You bring up a good point, Nasser Abufarha’s book, The Making of a Human Bomb, was published in 2009. He probably wrote it during the Second Intifada because in his book he writes how suicide bombings are increasing. It is definitely good to look at the date of publication for sources because research can become outdated with new information or change in circumstances. Wh15tL3D09N (talk) 17:50, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The topic is covered in-depth here, here, here, and elsewhere. Rename "Palestinian martyrdom" or "Martyrdom and Palestine". 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 21:37, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for linking these scholarly articles: I've added them to the refimprove section on the talk page so that (if this article is kept) we have good grounds to make this more neutral. GnocchiFan (talk) 12:41, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and rename - Martyrdom in Palestinian culture or preferably Martyrdom in Palestinian language and culture (see discussion). This article should exist, but with a neutral non-judgemental perspective. I have not read it thoroughly yet, but the content seems like a reasonable start, other than the sensationalist and judgmental current title. "Language" should probably be added to the scope, since concepts like translations of شهدي in English and foreign news would be important to include. (I think that's not quite the right word, my Arabic vocab is small and my grammar is non-existent. That root by itself means "witness" and is used as a prefix to some news reports, but I think that's also the word used to talk about people who died in war?) Importantly I only recently learned that the word and concept applies not only to deaths in combat, but also innocent victims of war. It is a thing I obviously don't fully understand, but that I - and most other English speakers following the news - would definitely benefit from understanding. Irtapil (talk) 15:40, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.